Prime Time Tonight

HelterSkelter · 18-12-2006 10:23am #1

I see Prime Time are doing a piece on "Islamic fundamentalism in Ireland" tonight. I only briefly overheard them announcing it on Morning Ireland this morning but it just sounded like a Muslim bashing to me.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1218/morningireland.html

Frank Grimes · 18-12-2006 10:27am

I heard the ad last week, it sounds similar to that Would You Believe programme that was on a few days ago.

Schuhart · 19-12-2006 12:04pm

I missed the RTE programmes, but from what I heard they were pretty insubstantial. For anyone interested, the recent reports by the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia on Islamophobia are here. They’re not short, and I haven’t read every page. But the quality of the material looks good.

HelterSkelter · 19-12-2006 12:21pm

I didn't see it myself but there are some articles on it in the Independent today, registration (free) required to read them.

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1743702&issue_id=15023

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1743818&issue_id=15023

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1743747&issue_id=15023

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1743747&issue_id=15023

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1743680&issue_id=15023

Frank Grimes · 19-12-2006 3:09pm

You can stream it from here.

FriarMo · 19-12-2006 5:29pm

Speaking as a Muslim I’ll say this about the show: It’s a wake up call… The honeymoon we’ve enjoyed with the wider Irish community wasn’t going to last forever and I believe we are rapidly nearing the end of that period of grace.

The ambivalence and denial shown by my co-religionists is shocking. Did they really think that we were immune to the radicalisation which every Muslim population in Europe is suffering to one degree or another? We only have to look across the Irish sea to one of the most radicalized concentration of youths to realise how vulnerable we are to turning to extremism, it’s only a 50 euro one hour flight from London to here. And now because of our complacency that poison has reached us… I felt physically sick listening to that sociopath “Sheikh” Ismail Kotwal, his views echoed the Ku Klux Klan, Nazim and Al Qaeda all wrapped in one and this guy runs a religious institute and lectured young Muslims in a state school?!

I for one will Not sit down quietly and let my family my friends and my society (by all those I mean the Irish people as a whole) be endangered by a fascist interpretation of Islam.

HelterSkelter · 19-12-2006 5:58pm

FriarMo, how credible are all these claims though? I know plenty of non-Muslim Irish nutcases who think the UK should be bombed back to the stone age but you are always going to get people with extreme points of view from all religions/races/nationalities/walks of life.

Frank Grimes, thanks for that, I will watch the program when I get home tonight.

wes · 19-12-2006 6:08pm

While I have not seen the show, but if it just one mad man screaming the same crap over again I think the best thing is to marginalise him from the wider Muslim community. I don't think we have much of a problem really, but its best to make sure that these people don't get any kind of foothold. Perhaps protesting or boycotting radical Imams could just such a solution. Show that they are unacceptable here and we don't want anything to do with them.

wes · 19-12-2006 10:48pm

FriarMo wrote:

The ambivalence and denial shown by my co-religionists is shocking. Did they really think that we were immune to the radicalisation which every Muslim population in Europe is suffering to one degree or another? We only have to look across the Irish sea to one of the most radicalized concentration of youths to realise how vulnerable we are to turning to extremism, it’s only a 50 euro one hour flight from London to here. And now because of our complacency that poison has reached us… I felt physically sick listening to that sociopath “Sheikh” Ismail Kotwal, his views echoed the Ku Klux Klan, Nazim and Al Qaeda all wrapped in one and this guy runs a religious institute and lectured young Muslims in a state school?!

I had a quick look at the show. I am very unhappy (putting it mildly) at what “Sheikh” Ismail Kotwal said on the show. I know the guy and I guess i never paid attention to him, but I never knew about his insane views. Don't know what we can do about it however.

PoleStar · 19-12-2006 11:16pm

wes wrote:

I had a quick look at the show. I am very unhappy (putting it mildly) at what “Sheikh” Ismail Kotwal said on the show. I know the guy and I guess i never paid attention to him, but I never knew about his insane views. Don't know what we can do about it however.

I know what we can do, we can denounce his views, and we can request that Muslims also denounce his views. Any support for any act of terrorism, whether in the name of Allah and Jihad or political or otherwise, cannot be tolerated. If Muslims state clearly that they do not share his views and that they do not support Osama and Co, then they will probably find that the negative reactions that they tend to go on about and the feelings of lack of integration into Irelan that they too often complain about, would promptly dissappear. As it stands however, when 15% of the Muslim community "respects" al-Qa'ida, then the native Irish population is always gonna view the Muslim with distrust. When 28% believe that terrorism can be justified, then there will always be a sense from the Irish people that Islam is associated with terrorism.

And before you all go jumping down my neck, I am not anti-Muslim, some of my best friends are staunch Muslims, and no I do not think all Muslims are terrorists.

wes · 19-12-2006 11:19pm

I already reject the mans views. The problem is how to make it heard.

PoleStar · 19-12-2006 11:27pm

wes wrote:

I already reject the mans views. The problem is how to make it heard.

Well we can bitch and moan about it on here! Thats one good start!

Honestly? I think when it comes up in conversation with any Muslims we must strongly assert our opinions, that committing any form of terrorist act is unnacceptable, and make it clear to our Muslim friends that it is not acceptable either to SUPPORT any form of terrorism.

wes · 19-12-2006 11:30pm

PoleStar wrote:

Well we can bitch and moan about it on here! Thats one good start!

Honestly? I think when it comes up in conversation with any Muslims we must strongly assert our opinions, that committing any form of terrorist act is unnacceptable, and make it clear to our Muslim friends that it is not acceptable either to SUPPORT any form of terrorism.

Already do this. I post as much on my blog from time to time.

lostexpectation · 20-12-2006 5:30am

PoleStar wrote:

Well we can bitch and moan about it on here! Thats one good start!

Honestly? I think when it comes up in conversation with any Muslims we must strongly assert our opinions, that committing any form of terrorist act is unnacceptable, and make it clear to our Muslim friends that it is not acceptable either to SUPPORT any form of terrorism.

yeah and then the americans can keep redefining terrorism to their hearts content and people like the so called outspoken sheik who provides no context can keep spouting bland be nice don't upset the West rubbish.

I see some of the worst hatespeechers were invited over by the TCD hist, I think they need to be raided and kicked out of the country, and yerman here for 25 yrs and no arrest or trial, and the FBI admit they has no evidence of a link between osama and 9/11 although I don't think you can use him as model muslim.

I know theres org and financing coming from here but until as I hear of Irish born and bred muslim going to Iraq I'll get worried.

whats with primetime keep on hooking up with the fearmonger rag that is the indo, only 5 articles!!!

Suff · 20-12-2006 9:15am

I am a Muslim (its a religion and not a race!), Living in Ireland for over 11 years now.

Give anyone a platform to speak out and you will always have some Mad, Insane, Controversial, Strong Views regardless of the political/religion/ race of the person who state's them. However that doesnt mean the the general public will accept or de-announce those views depending on their background.

Before you judge the society of that speaker ask yourself is he a voted representative of that society or just a person who got exited given a platform to speak out his views???

People agree/disagree on general daily life issues so when it comes to radical views I dont expect it to be solved or discussed within an hour!

Yes, you will find some people who agree with the views stated by the "Sheikh" and on the other hand also find people who reject it its normal.

I think there are Three main issues to be addressed in this situation:

ONE:

United View
The Islamic society (regardless of its location) should address these issues according to the Islamic law (Quraan, Sun'nah) and agree on the outcome and stand united. The problem we have is the different and un-united views that Islamic scolars hold and to some degree force on people. Is this what Islam teach's??

TWO:

The Education of the Non-Muslims society is VERY important. the Islamic society should make sure that a CLEAR/ SIMPLE understanding of ISLAM is made available to people who would like to read about it. otherwise you get the misconception that Islam is where people pray to an elephent god or that Islam is alien from Christianity and judaism.

THREE:

The Media have been covering stories like this for ages, to them anything shocking sell it to the public!
Sure you need to address certin topics and issue in modren day society however it leading people to genralise...can I say all Irish people are members in the IRA, All German's are Nazi's, All Jews are zionists and All Muslims are terrorist's???

Ofcourse not

I'm sure Irish people have problems when it comes to cliche views like leprechauns, the IRA, Catholic's are strict and have over 10 children and hit their wives or that most Irish men are called either Paddy or Sean!

wes · 20-12-2006 9:37am

The problem is that the extremists and nutters are always given a platform. Take Anjem Choudary, he came to Ireland that idiot was on Sky News Ireland. The man thinks he represents Muslims everywhere, and does his best to keep this myth up. We need a way to get our own view out there, and to marginalise people like the Sheik Ismail and Anjem Choudary.

Suff · 20-12-2006 9:43am

I agree totally, however we need to unit the Muslim Community in Ireland First!

wes · 20-12-2006 9:45am

Suff wrote:

I agree totally, however we need to unit the Muslim Community in Ireland First!

I think we have a better chance of getting elected to the Dail than that one. The community here is so different. I remember the Arab and Pakistani's fighting in the mosque one time, it was nuts. However the old adage of anything worth doing is always going to be hard applys.

HelterSkelter · 20-12-2006 10:01am

I watched about half the program last night and I didn't like the slant Prime Time put on it. It came across as a lot of scare mongering to me. As I said earlier there are nutters and people who support terrorism in all communities (I remember Irish people I know being happy about the bombing of Canary Wharf in London by the IRA). I didn't think what “Sheikh” Ismail Kotwal had to say was all that shocking or unexpected. I am an Irish non-Muslim but I was trying to think of it from another point of view so I could understand his position a bit more. If I was living in another country, the US for example, and Ireland was being attacked and occupied by a foreign country you can bet your life I could be coming back here to fight against the foreign forces. So why the hell would Muslims not want to help out in Iraq or other countries where Muslims are being attacked? It seems understandable to me.

wes · 20-12-2006 10:43am

HelterSkelter wrote:

I watched about half the program last night and I didn't like the slant Prime Time put on it. It came across as a lot of scare mongering to me. As I said earlier there are nutters and people who support terrorism in all communities (I remember Irish people I know being happy about the bombing of Canary Wharf in London by the IRA). I didn't think what “Sheikh” Ismail Kotwal had to say was all that shocking or unexpected. I am an Irish non-Muslim but I was trying to think of it from another point of view so I could understand his position a bit more. If I was living in another country, the US for example, and Ireland was being attacked and occupied by a foreign country you can bet your life I could be coming back here to fight against the foreign forces. So why the hell would Muslims not want to help out in Iraq or other countries where Muslims are being attacked? It seems understandable to me.

The thing is that he has it so confused. Don't get me wrong, I am no fan of US foreign policy, but they are not the bad guy some Muslims like to make them out to be. Really there only interested in money, and stable democracys are better trading partners. They are not the great satan, or whatever silly name the Jihadists are calling them thsi week.

The best way in my mind to help the Iraqi people is not to join the likes of Al Queada, but to support the legitimate government and reconcilliation between the Sunni's, Shia's and Kurds to create a stable Iraq. The foreign fighters goal is to destabalise Iraq and give Al Queada a base of operations. I think Sheik Ismail is quite frankly completely off his rocker and needs to be rejected by our community.

PoleStar · 20-12-2006 11:02am

Suff wrote:

Give anyone a platform to speak out and you will always have some Mad, Insane, Controversial, Strong Views regardless of the political/religion/ race of the person who state's them. However that doesnt mean the the general public will accept or de-announce those views depending on their background.

I dissagree with this. While I can accept that the "spokesperson" type individual may be a particular type of personality with extreme views and not representative of the population as a whole, the facts are that a substantial proportion of "regular" Muslims support al Qa'ida (15%) and a large proportion (28%) feel that terrorism can be justified. These individuals are not the "insane,controversial" indiduals you mention but just a representative of the Muslim community. Or do you perhaps dispute these figures from the show.

Suff wrote:

Sure you need to address certin topics and issue in modren day society however it leading people to genralise...can I say all Irish people are members in the IRA, All German's are Nazi's, All Jews are zionists and All Muslims are terrorist's???
Ofcourse not
I'm sure Irish people have problems when it comes to cliche views like leprechauns, the IRA, Catholic's are strict and have over 10 children and hit their wives or that most Irish men are called either Paddy or Sean!

Again no one is generalising and saying all Muslims are terrorists. Also, cliche views that all Irish are leprechauns etc are not the issue. The issue is that a substantial proportion of the Muslim community in Ireland respect and support terrorists.

wes · 20-12-2006 11:06am

PoleStar wrote:

Again no one is generalising and saying all Muslims are terrorists. Also cliche views that all Irish are leprechauns etc are not the issue. The issue is that a substantial proportion of the Muslim community in Ireland respect and support terrorists.

The has bee substantial support for terrorist from the Irish community in the past. Sinn Fein got quite a bit of cash from the US Irish community.

Also terrorism is so widly defined these days that the word has lost all meaning. Remember the US was calling the Taliban "freedom fighters" not all that long ago. Also support for various despots by the "West" is not unheard of. I think this is where the negative opinion comes from.

Suff · 20-12-2006 11:22am

wes wrote:

The has bee substantial support for terrorist from the Irish community in the past. Sinn Fein got quite a bit of cash from the US Irish community.Also terrorism is so widly defined these days that the word has lost all meaning. Remember the US was calling the Taliban "freedom fighters" not all that long ago

I agree with you totally.
dont forget that the US sends Billions (cash and in Arms) to Israel for it to fight the palestinian's or Hizballah while if the likes of Syria did it to support Hizballah its called funding terrorism!

Anyway I don't want to go off topic here,

If %15 of the Irish Muslim community support Al-Qaeda so what!
I'm sure you'll find a larger % in the USA with support to the ku klak klan which wy more scary compared to the %15 of a 18,000 Muslims in Ireland !

I really think islamophobia should be addressed

wes · 20-12-2006 11:31am

Suff wrote:

I agree with you totally.
dont forget that the US sends Billions (cash and in Arms) to Israel for it to fight the palestinian's or Hizballah while if the likes of Syria did it to support Hizballah its called funding terrorism!

Anyway I don't want to go off topic here,

If %15 of the Irish Muslim community support Al-Qaeda so what!
I'm sure you'll find a larger % in the USA with support to the ku klak klan which wy more scary compared to the %15 of a 18,000 Muslims in Ireland !

I really think islamophobia should be addressed

Well, I would hope that attitude has changed (in the US).

We should concentrate on changing the minds of that 15% of our own, the American's can worry about the KKK. I think that would be the best way to tackle Islamophobia, as well as reaching out to the wider community saying we are tackling the problem. Also, We need to know why they are so favourable to Al Qaeda, when there actions are so contrary to Islamic beliefs.

I think a part of it is the young angry man syndrome looking for something to rebel against, but I find it shocking that apparently people in my age group would have such a different and perverse view on things.

Tackling Islamophonia is a 2 way process, we have to be seen to be tackling our problems and we also need help and acceptance from the wider community.

Suff · 20-12-2006 12:06pm

wes wrote:

Also, We need to know why they are so favourable to Al Qaeda

Maybe cos they see them as the only group that was able to hit America!

I personally think Al-Qaeda is a puppet for the US, 9/11 was organised and executed by the US in order to pass certin laws in the goverment and invade OIL producing countries!

wes wrote:

Tackling Islamophonia is a 2 way process, we have to be seen to be tackling our problems and we also need help and acceptance from the wider community.

well said

wes · 20-12-2006 12:14pm

Suff wrote:

Maybe cos they see them as the only group that was able to hit America!

I personally think Al-Qaeda is a puppet for the US, 9/11 was organised and executed by the US in order to pass certin laws in the goverment and invade OIL producing countries!

well said

Okay, hitting the US was a bad thing for the Muslim community as a whole. It shows how fractured and messed up some within it has become. Al Qaeda go against our own rules and would have no trouble killing other Muslims who disagree with them. Actually the people most in danger from Jihadists are Muslims themselves, I think our community need to realise that. Most victims of Jihadists have been Muslims. They care for no one other than themselves.

As for the US gov being being 9/11, that is simply untrue. It was something the Neo-cons used to there advantage, and not to mention the funding of Jihadist in Afghanistan against the Soviets back in the day, have all lead to the proposterous conspiracy theory that the US gov was behind 9/11. It was Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden who commited that atrocity.

PoleStar · 20-12-2006 12:14pm

Suff wrote:

I agree with you totally.
dont forget that the US sends Billions (cash and in Arms) to Israel for it to fight the palestinian's or Hizballah while if the likes of Syria did it to support Hizballah its called funding terrorism!

Anyway I don't want to go off topic here,

If %15 of the Irish Muslim community support Al-Qaeda so what!
I'm sure you'll find a larger % in the USA with support to the ku klak klan which wy more scary compared to the %15 of a 18,000 Muslims in Ireland !

I really think islamophobia should be addressed

I was not adressing issues in Israel or the KluKlux Clan, this is the typical reponse that I would expect from the Muslim community: "so what if we support terrorism, look at the US and look at the other terrorists".

Just because someone else does something wrong, doesn't mean its ok for Muslims to support terrorism. And while I deplore ANY terrorism, this topic arose from opinions on the Prime Time program about Islam.

And I am apalled that you can have an opinion that "15% support al-Qa-ida, so what". It is from this 15% that the future suicide bombers will be "bred" so no, this is totally unacceptable.

And I totally agree, Islamophobia needs to be addressed. However it needs to be addressed from the Muslim community. Islamophobia arises from perceptions that Islam breeds violence and that Muslims support terrorism. While I firmly believe that the true Islam is a religion of peace and love, when a substantial proportion of the Muslim community is seen to respect al-Qa'ida and support terrorism in certain circumstances, well then the negative perceptions will persist. Islamophobia will dissappear entirely when the entire Muslim community, and especially leaders and prominent figures, absolutely and utterly condemn any act of terrorism.

To take this on, why don't we have Christianity-phobia? Perhaps because any leaders of the Church who comment on any act of terrorism committed in the name of "God" such as in the North of Ireland, are quick to condemn and have absolutely no support for any acts of violence in the name of religion. Now before you go on about the Spanish Inquisition and the crusades, please let me remind you that we live in the 21st century and that any Christian you talk to will completely abhor these acts and the fact that these were committed inthe name of Christianity.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not anti-Muslim, in fact I think that if religion gives people a meaning to their lives it is a good thing. However violence must be rejected.

wes · 20-12-2006 12:22pm

PoleStar wrote:

I was not adressing issues in Israel or the KluKlux Clan, this is the typical reponse that I would expect from the Muslim community: "so what if we support terrorism, look at the US and look at the other terrorists".

Just because someone else does something wrong, doesn't mean its ok for Muslims to support terrorism. And while I deplore ANY terrorism, this topic arose from opinions on the Prime Time program about Islam.

And I am apalled that you can have an opinion that "15% support al-Qa-ida, so what". It is from this 15% that the future suicide bombers will be "bred" so no, this is totally unacceptable.

And I totally agree, Islamophobia needs to be addressed. However it needs to be addressed from the Muslim community. Islamophobia arises from perceptions that Islam breeds violence and that Muslims support terrorism. While I firmly believe that the true Islam is a religion of peace and love, when a substantial proportion of the Muslim community is seen to respect al-Qa'ida and support terrorism in certain circumstances, well then the negative perceptions will persist. Islamophobia will dissappear entirely when the entire Muslim community, and especially leaders and prominent figures, absolutely and utterly condemn any act of terrorism.

To take this on, why don't we have Christianity-phobia? Perhaps because any leaders of the Church who comment on any act of terrorism committed in the name of "God" such as in the North of Ireland, are quick to condemn and have absolutely no support for any acts of violence in the name of religion. Now before you go on about the Spanish Inquisition and the crusades, please let me remind you that we live in the 21st century and that any Christian you talk to will completely abhor these acts and the fact that these were committed inthe name of Christianity.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not anti-Muslim, in fact I think that if religion gives people a meaning to their lives it is a good thing. However violence must be rejected.

Well considering the majority considers themselves Christian in the "West", this would naturally not lead to Christian-a-phobia. There are plenty of Christian wacko's out there in the US who are as bad as some the Jihadists in there views, but that is off topic here.

I think there is no need to bring up ancient history. All one has to do is point out the hypocrisy of some nations, the war in Iraq was an idiotic adventure, the US supporting terror in South America and many other things. Now these are not an excuse for the Muslim community, it just show these things are not unique the Muslim community. I do agree they can not be used as an excuse by the community.

As for Islamophobia, I think the fact that a lot of Muslims are members of ethnic minority groups doesn't help things and the fact that Muslims (as well as other minorities) are discriminated when it comes to jobs and housing. This contributes to the creating a breeding ground for extremism. Give the Muslims and other minorities a fair go at things, and this will help things greatly. However, there must be an effort from within the Muslim community, at the same time to help things. It is a problem that all need to be involed in solving.

Oh and I don't think your Anti-Muslim, those guys are very very easy to spot. You have made some good points to be fair.

Hobbes · 20-12-2006 12:30pm

guys less of the 9/11 type stuff. k.

Suff · 20-12-2006 1:27pm

PoleStar wrote:

I was not adressing issues in Israel or the KluKlux Clan, this is the typical reponse that I would expect from the Muslim community: "so what if we support terrorism, look at the US and look at the other terrorists".
Just because someone else does something wrong, doesn't mean its ok for Muslims to support terrorism. And while I deplore ANY terrorism, this topic arose from opinions on the Prime Time program about Islam.

I wasn't making that point!
My point was why do they differe between them? they are all Terrorism! so whay address some and leave others? seems political to me.

PoleStar wrote:

And I am apalled that you can have an opinion that "15% support al-Qa-ida, so what". It is from this 15% that the future suicide bombers will be "bred" so no, this is totally unacceptable.

I'm sure its only emotional support nothing to lead to physical actions...if there was any real threat the muslim community would have dealt with this matter. I remember few years ago (2-3) some group came from the UK to Dublin to be on the Late Late Show, they claim full support to Al-Qaeda and agree with what they stand. now I was in the Masjed on that Friday before the show and the Imam Sheikh Yehya mentioned them and stated that the Islamic Community in Ireland does not support Al-Qeada nor people who affiliate with them.
that I thought was a good message but did anyone hear it ?

PoleStar wrote:

And I totally agree, Islamophobia needs to be addressed. However it needs to be addressed from the Muslim community. Islamophobia arises from perceptions that Islam breeds violence and that Muslims support terrorism. While I firmly believe that the true Islam is a religion of peace and love

I agree

PoleStar wrote:

Islamophobia will dissappear entirely when the entire Muslim community, and especially leaders and prominent figures, absolutely and utterly condemn any act of terrorism.

I think it's more complex than this!

PoleStar wrote:

To take this on, why don't we have Christianity-phobia? Perhaps because any leaders of the Church who comment on any act of terrorism committed in the name of "God" such as in the North of Ireland, are quick to condemn and have absolutely no support for any acts of violence in the name of religion. Now before you go on about the Spanish Inquisition and the crusades, please let me remind you that we live in the 21st century and that any Christian you talk to will completely abhor these acts and the fact that these were committed inthe name of Christianity.

As you stated in regards to Spanish Inquisition and the crusades, Christianity-phobia did exist at that time but now the latest War on terror does seem and viewed by some as a new crusade. [listen to Bush speeches]

PoleStar wrote:

Please dont get me wrong, I am not anti-Muslim, in fact I think that if religion gives people a meaning to their lives it is a good thing. However violence must be rejected.

I know your not and I agree that Violence and hatred should be rejected and condemned.

PoleStar · 20-12-2006 1:51pm

Suff wrote:

I wasn't making that point!
My point was why do they differe between them? they are all Terrorism! so whay address some and leave others? seems political to me.

I agree, I make no distinction between any groups that commit terrorism. However I was addressing this issue as i find it disturbing that 15% of the Muslim community support a terrorist group.

Suff wrote:

I'm sure its only emotional support nothing to lead to physical actions...if there was any real threat the muslim community would have dealt with this matter.

It is emotional support that breeds these extremists and leads to financial support for these organisations. How do you think the IRA and groups like that get funding from businessmen and get new recruits? It is from these sections that "emotionally support" their cause.

Suff wrote:

As you stated in regards to Spanish Inquisition and the crusades, Christianity-phobia did exist at that time but now the latest War on terror does seem and viewed by some as a new crusade. [listen to Bush speeches]
QUOTE]

While I dont support Bush, I find it ironic that you are calling a war on terror a crusade! Shouldn't even the wider Muslim community support a war against terror, even if it is against Muslim terrorists? And I am not getting political on this, I know the issues between the US are much more complex than this and this is off topic.

And btw I don't think the issue of Islamophobia is more complex than this. Much discrimination arises from fear, and with the Muslim community it is a fear that Islam supports and breeds terrorism. If the community completely denounces any terrorist organisation then this will go along way to integrating the Muslim community and reducing peoples fears. And I think the responsiblity must lie with those prominent leaders of the Muslim community which must openly and totally demonstrate a lack of respect or tolerance or support for al_Qa'ida andany terrorist groups. What really bugs me is comments made by one prominent figure in this country when asked if he respects Osama Bin Laden, he replied something along the lines of "I dont know him personally so I neither respect nor disrespect him"! OMG does that mean because I didnt personally know Hitler, that I can't condemn him!!

wes · 20-12-2006 2:03pm

One thing about the "War on Terror", its a ridiculous farce. Iraq had nothing to do with terror, and the US gov constantly try to link the 2. Sadam had them executed whenever they were found. Also Al-Qaeda hated Sadam quite a bit.

Also how do you fight "Terror", its a tactic. The "War on Terror" is as bad as the "War on Drugs" in that they both don't make much sense in how there being fought. Most of the actions taken to fight it, have simply made things worse all round.

InFront · 20-12-2006 3:12pm

I dont think I could say anything that hasnt been said already, particularly by Suff and wes, who both have convincing ideas.

I thought the Prime Time show was a bit melodramatic to be honest. Its apparent message had the mentality of some seventy year old lady locking herself into her home and boarding up the windows because she's heard of there being robberies in the area. It's a sort of silly paranoia.

Given the similar documentary which preceded it by about a week, I watched that PT show with a reasonable degree of scepticism. Look: there's a lot in it that isn't very shocking at all, and more that is either slanted or misrepresented. Although we are talking about it here now, most people aren't, and to be honest I am relieved. I saw it as being very sensationalist (the "top secret" US government files Prime Time "exclusively accessed", that was completely useless to the documentary as a credible source of information, and yet still incuded) and I think most people copped onto that. I also got the impression that the guy heading up the documentary didnt really seem to have a very deep understanding of the topic, maybe I'm wrong, that's just the impression I got. Either way, the documentary did not live up to its advertised hype.

Whether this documentary is actually anti-islam or not is debatable. However, we can be sure of one thing: it is politicizing Islam. The politicization of Islam is the lovechild of a perverted affair between the media and the extremists. I think Muslims, and Muslim communities, such as ours here, need to claim back our religion from those two conspirators who would wreck and deface it.

wes · 20-12-2006 3:18pm

InFront wrote:

Whether this documentary is actually anti-islam or not is debatable. However, we can be sure of one thing: it is politicizing Islam. The politicization of Islam is the lovechild of a perverted affair between the media and the extremists. I think Muslims, and Muslim communities, such as ours here, need to claim back our religion from those two conspirators who would wreck and deface it.

I wouldn't call it Anti anything. It just does what the media does and sensationalises everything. That has less to do with Islam and more to do with how the media works. Just look at all the Princess Diana stories and its been years since she died.

FriarMo · 21-12-2006 1:38am

wes wrote:

I had a quick look at the show. I am very unhappy (putting it mildly) at what “Sheikh” Ismail Kotwal said on the show. I know the guy and I guess i never paid attention to him, but I never knew about his insane views. Don't know what we can do about it however.

*

Ten Point Proposal to Prevent Extremism from Taking a Hold among Irish Muslims and Muslim Residents

• Educating all Muslim students on having a zero tolerance policy towards violence and intolerance; to respect the ideals stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and those of the Irish constitution, law, culture and social norms.

• Carefully scrutinizing the current curricula taught to Muslim children and ensuring that no hateful, misogynistic homophobic or extremist material is used

• Cooperating within the NUI in setting up seminaries and degree courses that includes modules on human rights, tolerance and Irish history and culture and making the qualification a requirement for both perspective and existing Imams.

• Publicly naming and shaming imams, preachers and religious teachers who advocate violence, intolerance and the subjugation of women and working within the community to ostracize and isolate such individuals

• Strongly promoting the involvement of Muslims of all ages in long established local charities like St Vincent de Paul, Oxfam, Concern etc; Social clubs including the various heritage conservation societies; Sports clubs(including the GAA) and Irish speaking groups while discouraging the formation of clubs based solely on exclusiveness to the Muslim faith which try to isolate individuals from interacting with the wider community

• Forming a loose coalition of moderate and liberal Muslims in all mosques of different sects and denominations to help influence the current leaderships in place towards a more moderate integration oriented stance

• Building stronger bridges with the wider Irish community founded on tolerance and understanding not just in Dublin and areas where there is a concentration of Muslims, but also in rural towns and villages

• Ensuring Muslim women have an equal footing in the community and are at the highest levels of leadership

• Moving Away from a Muslim community dominated by one ethnicity or cultural background and instead becoming inclusive to the 60+ nationalities, sects, denominations and various groupings

• Better Cooperation with the government towards ensuring that relevant national agencies are better able at working towards the integration of Irish Muslims and eliminating extremism

* It would be ideal if we the Irish Muslim community ourselves took the initiative in implementing the above points instead of having it imposed on us but in my opinion it’s a case of either shaping up or shipping out unfortunately.

lostexpectation · 21-12-2006 6:53am

PoleStar wrote:

I was not adressing issues in Israel or the KluKlux Clan, this is the typical reponse that I would expect from the Muslim community: "so what if we support terrorism, look at the US and look at the other terrorists".

Just because someone else does something wrong, doesn't mean its ok for Muslims to support terrorism. And while I deplore ANY terrorism, this topic arose from opinions on the Prime Time program about Islam.

And I am apalled that you can have an opinion that "15% support al-Qa-ida, so what". It is from this 15% that the future suicide bombers will be "bred" so no, this is totally unacceptable.

And I totally agree, Islamophobia needs to be addressed. However it needs to be addressed from the Muslim community. Islamophobia arises from perceptions that Islam breeds violence and that Muslims support terrorism. While I firmly believe that the true Islam is a religion of peace and love, when a substantial proportion of the Muslim community is seen to respect al-Qa'ida and support terrorism in certain circumstances, well then the negative perceptions will persist. Islamophobia will dissappear entirely when the entire Muslim community, and especially leaders and prominent figures, absolutely and utterly condemn any act of terrorism.

To take this on, why don't we have Christianity-phobia? Perhaps because any leaders of the Church who comment on any act of terrorism committed in the name of "God" such as in the North of Ireland, are quick to condemn and have absolutely no support for any acts of violence in the name of religion. Now before you go on about the Spanish Inquisition and the crusades, please let me remind you that we live in the 21st century and that any Christian you talk to will completely abhor these acts and the fact that these were committed inthe name of Christianity.

Please dont get me wrong, I am not anti-Muslim, in fact I think that if religion gives people a meaning to their lives it is a good thing. However violence must be rejected.

hobbes this was political thread from the get go, if you want to move it to humanities/politics do so...

polestar you are so wrong, as I already said if start making empty statements like 'I condemn all terrorism' then you the powerhoses can then just define anything as terrorism and you'll have to condemn that too. Howabout you say I condemn all wars then you have to condemn the American war and their puppets. although I do think these Imans display the old authoritive style of the old catholiscism as discussed in that other thread.

It finds Muslims here largely vote Fianna Fail. jaysus wept

Hobbes · 21-12-2006 8:05am

lostexpectation wrote:

hobbes this was political thread from the get go, if you want to move it to humanities/politics do so...

If you want to talk about 9/11 and who did what you have the conspiracy forum.

FriarMo wrote:

Strongly promoting the involvement of Muslims of all ages in long established local charities like

Only thing with that, and this isn't a Muslim thing tbh is that a lot of charities in Ireland are religious in nature. I know of some companies and organizations that do not donate to those charities on those grounds. If the charity is religious in nature I don't see why someone who is not of that religion should be promoted to help in that charity. There are plenty of similar non-denominational ones.

PoleStar · 21-12-2006 10:41am

lostexpectation wrote:

polestar you are so wrong, as I already said if start making empty statements like 'I condemn all terrorism' then you the powerhoses can then just define anything as terrorism and you'll have to condemn that too. Howabout you say I condemn all wars then you have to condemn the American war and their puppets. although I do think these Imans display the old authoritive style of the old catholiscism as discussed in that other thread.

Lost I personally condemn all wars although thats my personal opinion and has nothing to do with this discussion which has largely been about the prime time programme and the opinions of Muslims in this country on al-Qa'ida, integration etc.

However I am not wrong sorry, it is very easy to condemn all terrorism because terrorism is a different type of violence to that that occurs in "wars". Terrorist attacks are usually charactised by indiscriminate selection of victims, and are not a direct military action. It is usually committed to make a religious or political point. For example if I set off a bomb in the London underground, the people are innocent, including children who may not even know about religion or politics, and it will have no direct effect on my campaign whatever that may be.

I cannot understand how anyone can possibly say that it is an "empty statement to condemn all terrorism", that is just nonsense.

Now please dont insult my intelligence by asking silly questions well how do you define terrorism, and what about the Americans in Iraq killing innocent people. While I do not personally approve of that war, it is a direct military action. They dont send suicide bombers into schools just to make a point.

HelterSkelter · 21-12-2006 10:49am

PoleStar wrote:

...because terrorism is a different type of violence to that that occurs in "wars". Terrorist attacks are usually charactised by indiscriminate selection of victims, and are not a direct military action. It is usually committed to make a religious or political point.

I disagree, the actions of the Israeli army in Lebanon and Palestine constitute terrorism in my book.

PoleStar wrote:

For example if I set off a bomb in the London underground, the people are innocent, including children who may not even know about religion or politics, and it will have no direct effect on my campaign whatever that may be.

In the same way as lots of innocent people have been killed by the Israeli army in Lebannon, innocent people in Iraq by the US army, etc.

PoleStar wrote:

I cannot understand how anyone can possibly say that it is an "empty statement to condemn all terrorism", that is just nonsense.

It is not nonsence because people disagree on what terrorism is exactly. As the famous saying goes, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

HelterSkelter · 21-12-2006 10:55am

PoleStar wrote:

What really bugs me is comments made by one prominent figure in this country when asked if he respects Osama Bin Laden, he replied something along the lines of "I dont know him personally so I neither respect nor disrespect him"! OMG does that mean because I didnt personally know Hitler, that I can't condemn him!!

Why do you condemn Osama Bin Laden? There is no proof he was responsible for 9/11. On his wanted page on the FBI site they do not even list 9/11 as one of the crimes he is responsible for. What we know about Bin Laden is what we are told by the same people who told us there were WMD in Iraq.

PoleStar · 21-12-2006 11:07am

HelterSkelter wrote:

Why do you condemn Osama Bin Laden? There is no proof he was responsible for 9/11. On his wanted page on the FBI site they do not even list 9/11 as one of the crimes he is responsible for. What we know about Bin Laden is what we are told by the same people who told us there were WMD in Iraq.

OMG are you for real? I really hope you are joking.
Without goin into the details of the terrorist bombings he is indicated in,
he is the founder of al-Qa'ida, which is accepted even by Muslims as a terrorist group. While he was not directly indicted in 9'11, he has certainly personally and openly taken responsibility for it.

Osama Bin Laden openly declared "the ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'."

So I think it is quite easy to condemn someone who openly incites people to kill innocent cilivians in the name of God.

Frankly some of the latter replies coming up here are quite frightening and are the type of replies I would expect from the 15% that support terrorism and 28% that think terrorist attacks can be justified in the Muslim community. And as I said in my earlier posts it is exactly these types of opinions that result in Islamophobia.

PoleStar · 21-12-2006 11:14am

HelterSkelter wrote:

I disagree, the actions of the Israeli army in Lebanon and Palestine constitute terrorism in my book.

In the same way as lots of innocent people have been killed by the Israeli army in Lebannon, innocent people in Iraq by the US army, etc.

It is not nonsence because people disagree on what terrorism is exactly. As the famous saying goes, one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist.

Again this is untrue.
There is a difference between between war and terrorism and it is quite easy really. Whether a particular war is justified or not is a completely different matter.

Terrorism is not a direct military action, it is done purely to make a political or religious point. The people that usually say the kinda crap that one mans terrosim is anothers freedom fight are the people again as I said before that support terrorism and think it can be justified. I dont want to get into details of the Iraq war and Israel etc, and I certainly can support you in saying that these wars are unjust and illegal. However they are direct military action. If I go over to a school in Iraq though and blow myself up to kill innocent children purely to make a point, then that is quite a different matter.

So now I ask a direct question. Are you one of these people that thinks for example that the attacks on the underground and buses in London, killing innocent people, Muslims included, purely to make a point, can be justified?

HelterSkelter · 21-12-2006 12:15pm

PoleStar wrote:

Again this is untrue.
There is a difference between between war and terrorism and it is quite easy really. Whether a particular war is justified or not is a completely different matter.

I don't think the distinction between war and terrorism is as clear as you make out.

PoleStar wrote:

Terrorism is not a direct military action, it is done purely to make a political or religious point.

"Terrorism" is generally used by people who don't have the resources to fight a huge country and army. For example Michael Collins's campaign against the British occupation in Ireland. They did not have the resources to fight one of the biggest Empires in the world so they conducted a "terror" campaign. I see the people in Palestine as doing the same thing.

PoleStar wrote:

The people that usually say the kinda crap that one mans terrosim is anothers freedom fight are the people again as I said before that support terrorism and think it can be justified.

Who decides what is terrorism and what is not? That is my real concern.

PoleStar wrote:

I dont want to get into details of the Iraq war and Israel etc, and I certainly can support you in saying that these wars are unjust and illegal. However they are direct military action.

So that makes them ok?

PoleStar wrote:

So now I ask a direct question. Are you one of these people that thinks for example that the attacks on the underground and buses in London, killing innocent people, Muslims included, purely to make a point, can be justified?

No, I don't agree with these attacks, I don't think they are justified. I also don't agree with the 9/11 attacks. Do you think the lives of the people killed in the London tube bombings are more important than the lives of innocent people killed in Palestine/Lebanon/Iraq by the Israeli/US armies?

HelterSkelter · 21-12-2006 12:22pm

Let me ask you a question PoleStar. Are you Irish? I will assume you are. If Ireland was attacked and taken over by a foreign army, let's say the British for argument sake, what would your stance be? Imagine they had defeated the Irish army and had complete control of the whole country. Would you do anything to fight back? If you knew a group of people organising attacks on British targets would you take part? Would you support them? Or would you stand by and accept the occupation by the British army? If you were living in a foreign country would you come back to Ireland to help with the fight to get the British army out? If people did help out and fight back would you class these people as terrorists?

lostexpectation · 21-12-2006 12:33pm

PoleStar wrote:

Again this is untrue.
There is a difference between between war and terrorism and it is quite easy really. Whether a particular war is justified or not is a completely different matter.

Terrorism is not a direct military action, it is done purely to make a political or religious point. The people that usually say the kinda crap that one mans terrosim is anothers freedom fight are the people again as I said before that support terrorism and think it can be justified. I dont want to get into details of the Iraq war and Israel etc, and I certainly can support you in saying that these wars are unjust and illegal. However they are direct military action. If I go over to a school in Iraq though and blow myself up to kill innocent children purely to make a point, then that is quite a different matter.

So now I ask a direct question. Are you one of these people that thinks for example that the attacks on the underground and buses in London, killing innocent people, Muslims included, purely to make a point, can be justified?

polestar you clearly support the american invasion of Iraq, as does wes and most probably the sheik so your opinion on what the iman says counts for very little

Hobbes · 21-12-2006 1:42pm

Helterskelter, Polestar + lostexpectation are warned. Anyone one else want to continue on this line of conversation (ie not the thread subject) do so in another forum or your banned for a week.

As always my comment is not up for debate in this thread.

Stay on topic in the thread.

lostexpectation · 21-12-2006 3:59pm

what is the topic? the program, which had a Iman who was preaching to a large group of people who admired Bin Laden and we're discussion whether this is an acceptable viewpoint in context? that is the topic and has been our discussion.

Hobbes · 21-12-2006 4:21pm

Last time I checked polestar and wes were not part of that documentry. If you want to accuse them of something do so in PM's.

Also the documentry wasn't about how terrorism works or who did what to who or US forigen policy.

This thread started off so well, if it continues as it is then I will just lock it.

PoleStar · 21-12-2006 7:36pm

I apologise if it appears we went off topic.

That certainly wasnt my intention, however examples were given to try and illustrate points related to the original discussion. Including why I think terrorism should be abhorred, in any form, committed by anyone, whether political or religious. This is what the original topic was about, debating the opinions in the documentary, including, the opinions of Muslims on terrorism.

My only point out of all this was that I think if the Muslim community makes an effort to denounce violence then some of the fears from the "native" or "non-Muslim" Irish people, which I actually think are to some degree unfounded, will be substantially reduced.

Unfortunately along the way I somehow have been taken to be pro-American and in support of the war on Iraq, and anti-Muslim. I am not sure how this happened as I certainly did not state at any time that I was against Islam, or a supporter of the war in Iraq. In fact I think this American war is completely un-just, as do the majority of the American population too the last time I checked the opinion polls!

InFront · 21-12-2006 10:11pm

FriarMo wrote:

*
Ten Point Proposal to Prevent Extremism from Taking a Hold among Irish Muslims and Muslim Residents

Salaam FriarMo, I have a lot of issues with this so called ten point proposal . While the ideas are all very grand and lofty, they are often impractical, fuzzy and pointless in my opinion, even verging on damaging. This kind of empty rhetoric gets us nowhere.

• Educating all Muslim students on having a zero tolerance policy towards violence and intolerance; to respect the ideals stated in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and those of the Irish constitution, law, culture and social norms.

from what I gather you are a Muslim yourself, ok so how can you advocate such a method, singling out innocent Muslim children and spelling out T-O-L-E-R-A-N-C-E as one would maybe speak to an Italian tourist looking for directions to theBook of Kells. For goodness sake, anyone who gets an education Muslim or otherwise learns that stuff anyway, why would we Muslims need special education on it?

• Carefully scrutinizing the current curricula taught to Muslim children and ensuring that no hateful, misogynistic homophobic or extremist material is used

Again, my first issue is with the singling out of the Muslim teachers. Why? So maybe Prime Time convinced you there is a problem with extremism in Irish Islam (personally I couldnt agree less), but homophobia? Mysogeny? Are you just picking 'bad stuff' out of thin air?

•

Cooperating within the NUI in setting up seminaries and degree courses that includes modules on human rights, tolerance and Irish history and culture and making the qualification a requirement for both perspective and existing Imams.

I don't know where to begin. Imams are not the be-all and end-all of religious influence. For every potential Imam there to negatively influence a young person you have fathers, brothers, uncles, teachers, clerics, etc. Why on earth one would have to undergo some sort of "rehabilitation education" as you seem to be suggesting is bewildering and, no offence, but also a bit patronising.

• Publicly naming and shaming imams, preachers and religious teachers who advocate violence, intolerance and the subjugation of women and working within the community to ostracize and isolate such individuals

Any policy that aims to ostracize individuals is beyond a joke. So much for rehabilitation.

• Forming a loose coalition of moderate and liberal Muslims in all mosques of different sects and denominations to help influence the current leaderships in place towards a more moderate integration oriented stance

What exactly is a moderate Muslim? Is it a Muslim who kind of believes but also kind of doesn't? What exactly is a liberal Mulsim? Is it a Muslim who loves Allah and also loves getting drunk? I am extremely Muslim, but I am not a Muslim extremist.
I understand what you mean here, and the idea isnt stupid or anything, it just really annoys me when people refer to "Moderate Islam". I don't believe such a thing exists. Being a strong Muslim does not mean you want to blow up a train station.

• Ensuring Muslim women have an equal footing in the community and are at the highest levels of leadership

What has that got to do with extremism?

• Better Cooperation with the government towards ensuring that relevant national agencies are better able at working towards the integration of Irish Muslims and eliminating extremism

What sort of national agencies would these be that would be 'eliminating extremism' here? the department of foreign affairs?

I don't mean to belittle your opinions, and sorry if I seem a bit angry about it. But, like many people, I'm sick to death of this idea that Irish islam (whatever that is) is somehow corrupt or depraved or a menace to society. Some people say that the 'honeymoon period' with Ireland is over. If it is, that's being fuelled largely by of the kind of treatment Islam is getting in the media we are receiving here, both terrestrial and international.

I really believe such measures as you outline, were they to be implemented for some reason, would be antagonistic and alienating towards a lot of Muslims.

Hobbes · 22-12-2006 6:46am

Any policy that aims to ostracize individuals is beyond a joke. So much for rehabilitation.

In some cases this is a good idea. You might get person X who will say "Kill all the ....". Them not getting air time or not being taken seriously in the sense that they don't speak for their demographic is a good thing.

What has that got to do with extremism?

I'm curious myself.

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