A Christmas reflection

Schuhart

I was reflecting on recent discussions here about concentrating dialogue more on what Christianity is about. The time of year might give some inspiration for a starting point. Christmas is both a religious festival for believers and a cultural event for atheists with Christian backgrounds.

Many of us would also share a healthy scepticism of some of the more blatant commercialisation of the event. We’d probably also agree that valuing what’s good in life and the ethic of sharing should be continued all year round. (No, I don’t mean getting legless with your boss in the middle of June. Once a year is quite enough for that, and it’s best done when the evenings are dark.)

For my part, I intend to read the four Gospels over the coming few weeks. I’ll read the texts accepting that they are documents written by early Christians as a record of what they believed to be the truth, which is again something I’d expect most of us can accept. My object is simply to understand as best I can the message those early Christians wanted to preserve.

Puck

Great choice. I'll be working on a paper on the Book of Job over the Christmas. Not so bad really because Job is my favorite book of the Old Testament.

I'll be celebrating the birth of my Lord this Christmas. Of course I know he was most likely not born around this time of year but December 25th is the date that's been settled on and it does me fine. I'd much rather celebrate in community on Christmas Day than pick some random date and celebrate on my own.

I'll also be watching my neices and nephews open their presents and eating until I feel drowsy. The commercialism does bother me but society is quite materialistic all year round nowadays. I work in a shop and we regularly get customers just radomly anouncing how big a TV they have (I don't work in a TV shop) and expecting store policy not to apply to them because they've spent X thousand Euro in the shop. But I think many people make an extra effort around Christmas to be nice to others and the odd "Happy Christmas" or "Happy Holidays" or whatever still cheers me up. Lets face it we all need some kind of celebration in the cold months of Winter.

Also, my fiance flys into Shannon on the 28th and I can't wait to see her again.

Happy Christmas everyone!

JimiTime

Absolutely nothing about Xmas is Christian. Even the percieved positives are negatives from a Christian perspective! It may be traditional and give people that fuzzy feeling they enjoy, but it is not Christian! So there!

hairyheretic

Surely it is what you make of it? No one is forcing you out to indulge in an orgy of consumerism. If you choose to take the time, to read your holy book, reflect on its lessons and put those into practice as you choose, is that not time well spent?

Asiaprod

JimiTime wrote:

Even the percieved positives are negatives from a Christian perspective!

I have to call you on this one. Care to explain this to us?

Puck wrote:

Also, my fiance flys into Shannon on the 28th and I can't wait to see her again.

Happy Christmas everyone!

And I trust, in light of the good news, you will also have a VERY Merry Christmas.

Seasonal best wishes to all denominations from your friendly, fuzzy, Buddhist.

JimiTime

Asiaprod wrote:

I have to call you on this one. Care to explain this to us?

No Problem. Negatives wise, most people will agree on the pagan origins of X-mas, the consumerism etc. Then you will get the those who say, to some it is a time for spiritual reflection, love of your fellow man etc, and these things are positive. From Jesus' perspective, would they be positive?
Firstly, would Jesus celebrate it?
There was never a relevance shown in the bible, nor to the birthday of anyone, apart from those of the nations, Herod etc. Great importance was placed on his death and resurrection and we were asked to have a memorial to the event. To his birth, nothing.
All of the traditions of X-Mas are pagan, including the date, so even though it has been relabled, would Jesus celebrate it? If you think he would, then I would ask you why you think he would?

Secondly, the 'positives'.
Jesus was not sentimental. He had depth. He thought love for our fellow man, and love for his Father and even our enemies. Let that sink in, love your enemy. Imagine a Jew saying he still had love for Hitler:eek: Well that is the depth of Love that Jesus taught. A love that I have never witnessed, nor do I practice, but strive for, poorly. He taught us 'how to fish', as well as 'giving us fish'. He thought us that our motivations were what made an act righteous, as in the illustration of the pharisee giving a tenth of his wealth, and the woman giving half of the little she had.
So the X-mas giving is not motivated by Jesus' form of Love, for if it were, it would be done all year round to the orphans and the poor etc, for if you truly followed Christ and 'Loved' your neighbour, X-Mas would not have any impact. So why do the people who celebrate X-Mas, the 'proper' way (from a christian perspective), feel more spiritual or generous etc at this time of year? Is this following Christ? or merely showing how Christs message is not followed the rest of the time? Even following his instruction at X-Mas, it can't be trully following him because its not with Love, but obligation, as I mentioned, love would motivate us all year round.

So the question is, what, in relation to X-Mas, is truly Christian? For I have looked, but never found. I do not wish to portray myself as negative, but X-Mas from my perspective is sentiment and phoneyism at its worst. Just because it makes some people feel good, does not mean its positive.

Bah Humbug:D

BrianCalgary

JimiTime wrote:

There was never a relevance shown in the bible, nor to the birthday of anyone, apart from those of the nations, Herod etc. Great importance was placed on his death and resurrection and we were asked to have a memorial to the event. To his birth, nothing.
All of the traditions of X-Mas are pagan, including the date, so even though it has been relabled, would Jesus celebrate it? If you think he would, then I would ask you why you think he would?

Yep probably. I celebrate the birth of my children and thank God for bringing them into the world and allowing me the privelege of rasing them.

I celebrate the birth of my wife and thank God for her being born so that she can be my partner in this life.

I celebrate the birth of my saviuor, Immanuel, God with us. I thank God for coming to Earth and being born a man with the purpose of dying for my sin.

JimiTime wrote:

Secondly, the 'positives'.
Jesus was not sentimental. He had depth. He thought love for our fellow man, and love for his Father and even our enemies. Let that sink in, love your enemy. Imagine a Jew saying he still had love for Hitler:eek: Well that is the depth of Love that Jesus taught. A love that I have never witnessed, nor do I practice, but strive for, poorly. He taught us 'how to fish', as well as 'giving us fish'. He thought us that our motivations were what made an act righteous, as in the illustration of the pharisee giving a tenth of his wealth, and the woman giving half of the little she had.
So the X-mas giving is not motivated by Jesus' form of Love, for if it were, it would be done all year round to the orphans and the poor etc, for if you truly followed Christ and 'Loved' your neighbour, X-Mas would not have any impact. So why do the people who celebrate X-Mas, the 'proper' way (from a christian perspective), feel more spiritual or generous etc at this time of year? Is this following Christ? or merely showing how Christs message is not followed the rest of the time? Even following his instruction at X-Mas, it can't be trully following him because its not with Love, but obligation, as I mentioned, love would motivate us all year round.

So the question is, what, in relation to X-Mas, is truly Christian? For I have looked, but never found. I do not wish to portray myself as negative, but X-Mas from my perspective is sentiment and phoneyism at its worst. Just because it makes some people feel good, does not mean its positive.

Bah Humbug:D

I think Jesus was sentimental. He showed caring for His mother awhen He was on the cross. You have stated all the great things that Jesus taught, going against the grain and our own natures. That is a great reason to celebrate His birth.

Just found out this morning about a Calgary personality who came to Christ because of the last line in a Chriatmas song; "Man shall live forever more because of Christmas day". Is it worth it then for the salvation of one person? Yes.

Christmas is what you make of it. What is your purpose in celebrating? To stuff yourself anf have a piss-up? or to feast and celebrate the birth of the Saviuor?

Jimitime, you can make anything negative and twist it for negatives. It is up to you whether or not youmake it positive. It our house, we praise Him and thank God for Hi ssacrifice.

Dave!

I'll be celebrating Christmas in the same way as most Irish people will be: my family will all get together, exchange gifts, have dinner, have a few drinks, play some board/card games, and have some fun in general.

Christmas is the best holiday of the year

Asiaprod

JimiTime wrote:

Bah Humbug:D

I like that, and thanks for explaining, some good points raised.
I go with Brian's comment on this:
Christmas is what you make of it.

JimiTime

BrianCalgary wrote:

Yep probably. I celebrate the birth of my children and thank God for bringing them into the world and allowing me the privelege of rasing them.

I celebrate the birth of my wife and thank God for her being born so that she can be my partner in this life.

I celebrate the birth of my saviuor, Immanuel, God with us. I thank God for coming to Earth and being born a man with the purpose of dying for my sin.

Do you think he would mind its pagan origins? Do you think he would mind the symbolism of the decorative tree being Nimrod, someone who was 'a hunter in the face of God'? Do you think he'd mind the fact that the date its celebrated is of Pagan origin? Why do you think he'd celebrate it? And if he did celebrate it why would he celebrate it this way? Also, do you think God approves of Lies, in any shape or form. Little white ones or the like?

I think Jesus was sentimental. He showed caring for His mother awhen He was on the cross. You have stated all the great things that Jesus taught, going against the grain and our own natures. That is a great reason to celebrate His birth.

If we say, ok, to celebrate his birth is ok. Then we still have the issue of how its celebrated. Do you think the date of his birth was left out of scripture by accident? What about X-Mas is truly Christian?

Just found out this morning about a Calgary personality who came to Christ because of the last line in a Chriatmas song; "Man shall live forever more because of Christmas day". Is it worth it then for the salvation of one person? Yes.

Oh come on Brian! Thats means justifying the ends thinking. Thats like, if something is wrong, but it makes someone a believer, its right. tut, tut.

Christmas is what you make of it. What is your purpose in celebrating? To stuff yourself anf have a piss-up? or to feast and celebrate the birth of the Saviuor?

Ok. Its what you make of it. So in celebrating the birth of Christ, will you 'lie' to your children about Santa Clause? Will you errect Nimrods tree of rememberence? Burn a Yule Log? Exchange gifts like the Romans on Saturnalia? Kiss under the mistletow? All pagan!
Do you really think Jesus would do these things? or Approve of these things because, their meaning has been rebranded? Was Jesus a man of superstition and tradition? 'Why' would Jesus celebrate X-Mas???? as I said if he did, would he approve of all these symbols attributed to Paganism?

Jimitime, you can make anything negative and twist it for negatives. It is up to you whether or not youmake it positive. It our house, we praise Him and thank God for Hi ssacrifice.

Should a Christian not be doing that dailly? The only difference I see is that you do it while having lots of Pagan memorabilia around.
You keep going on about celebrating his sacrifice for us. Well he told us to have a memorial to that on Nisan 14, so why is all the hoo-ha made about his birthday, when he put no emphasis on it??

My main point in case you haven't gathered, is that we should be living Christ all year round. All this pagan ritual in the name of Jesus is wrong. If on X-mas day you remember his life and our hope in his sacrifice, then great, but as I said, that should be every day in a Christian home, should it not? The charity of helping your fellow man should be motivated by Love, not by the sentiments at X-mas. So wht is truly Christian about X-Mas?

BrianCalgary

JimiTime wrote:

Do you think he would mind its pagan origins? Do you think he would mind the symbolism of the decorative tree being Nimrod, someone who was 'a hunter in the face of God'? Do you think he'd mind the fact that the date its celebrated is of Pagan origin? Why do you think he'd celebrate it? And if he did celebrate it why would he celebrate it this way? Also, do you think God approves of Lies, in any shape or form. Little white ones or the like? ?

Lets try to do this one at a time.
1)Yes, but in celebrating Christmas as a kid and up to my early twenties I had no idea of any pagan origins. Only Christ's birth as the origin of Cristmas. So did He mind then. No
2)Because it is His birthday. I celebrate mine. Do you celebrate yours?
3)He is the one you would have to ask this question to.
4) No, no lies.

JimiTime wrote:

If we say, ok, to celebrate his birth is ok. Then we still have the issue of how its celebrated. Do you think the date of his birth was left out of scripture by accident? What about X-Mas is truly Christian?

The date is irrelevant. It is the event that is important. Do you not think that the event of Christs birth is important?

JimiTime wrote:

Oh come on Brian! Thats means justifying the ends thinking. Thats like, if something is wrong, but it makes someone a believer, its right. tut, tut.

But celebrating God's arrival on earth is not wrong.

JimiTime wrote:

Ok. Its what you make of it. So in celebrating the birth of Christ, will you 'lie' to your children about Santa Clause?.

They are older now. But Santa visits our house every year still. It is part of the magic. The miracle of Christs birth. When our kids where little the joy on their faces was astounding. Santa came to our house every year and still does bearing gifts as did the wise men as did God by coming. We celebrate the giving.

JimiTime wrote:

Will you errect Nimrods tree of rememberence? ?.

No. We will erect a Christmas tree. An evergreen in remembrance that eternal life is available throiugh Christ.

JimiTime wrote:

Burn a Yule Log??.

Nope. No fireplace in our house.

JimiTime wrote:

Exchange gifts like the Romans on Saturnalia???.

Nope, give gifts in remembrance of God's gift to us.

JimiTime wrote:

Kiss under the mistletow? .

I hope so. Although the mitletoe isn't needed when kissing my wife. Actually don't think we have any hung.

JimiTime wrote:

All pagan! .

If Satan can take that which is glorious and pervert why can we not take what is Satans and use it to glorify God?

JimiTime wrote:

Do you really think Jesus would do these things? or Approve of these things because, their meaning has been rebranded?.

I think He would. We are doing it in our home as an act of worship and thanksgiving to Him.

JimiTime wrote:

Was Jesus a man of superstition and tradition? ?.

No He is God the creator of the universe. Tradition for the sake of honouring Christ is good. tradition for traditions sake is bad.

JimiTime wrote:

'Why' would Jesus celebrate X-Mas???? ?.

Cause it is His birthday?

JimiTime wrote:

as I said if he did, would he approve of all these symbols attributed to Paganism?

You can make them pagan if you wish and keep them out of your house. We choose to celebrate the eternal life offered through Christ. We celebrate the greatest gift that has ever been given: the sacrifice of God, in coming to Earth to offer Himself in our place.

JimiTime wrote:

Should a Christian not be doing that dailly?

Absolutely

JimiTime wrote:

The only difference I see is that you do it while having lots of Pagan memorabilia around.

They are only pagan, if you make them pagan.

JimiTime wrote:

You keep going on about celebrating his sacrifice for us. Well he told us to have a memorial to that on Nisan 14, so why is all the hoo-ha made about his birthday, when he put no emphasis on it?

We celebrate that as well. He actually said in Luke 22:19 "do this is remembrance of me". He doesn't tell us when. So why restrict it to Nisan 14? Why not all the time, including His birth?

How do you know that Jesus never had a birhday party?

JimiTime wrote:

My main point in case you haven't gathered, is that we should be living Christ all year round. All this pagan ritual in the name of Jesus is wrong. If on X-mas day you remember his life and our hope in his sacrifice, then great, but as I said, that should be every day in a Christian home, should it not? The charity of helping your fellow man should be motivated by Love, not by the sentiments at X-mas.

I couldn't agree more.

JimiTime wrote:

So wht is truly Christian about X-Mas?

The celebration of the birth of the saviour.

hairyheretic

BrianCalgary wrote:

If Satan can take that which is glorious and pervert why can we not take what is Satans and use it to glorify God?

Pagan does not mean satanic Brian. Satan is part of Christianity, not paganism.

BrianCalgary

hairyheretic wrote:

Pagan does not mean satanic Brian. Satan is part of Christianity, not paganism.

I would beg to differ. Anything that takes the focus off Jesus Christ is from Satan.

hairyheretic

Then I would suggest we agree to disagree and leave it at that. We both have our own beliefs.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

I would beg to differ. Anything that takes the focus off Jesus Christ is from Satan.

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, even in a Christian frame work?

Do we not have the ability to make free choices, free from influence of both God and Satan? And is it not a choice that we must turn to the "light", rather than that being the default position we would take unless Satan turns us away?

Therefore it stands to reason, within a Christian framework, that people can choose other religions free of influence of both God and Satan, does it not? They are not turning to the light, but they are not benig turned away from it either. Therefore saying paganism is Satans work is both inaccurate and rather unfair on the poor old pagans (since it implies that they are being directed to the work of actually evil, rather than simply a neural position, alebit a position that will lead to an enterity in hell)

BrianCalgary

hairyheretic wrote:

Then I would suggest we agree to disagree and leave it at that. We both have our own beliefs.

No problem.

Schuhart

I think there’s another possible perspective, which is simply accepting that the understanding of the world we have now is a product of previous generations. In one form or another, people have probably marked wintertime with a festival. As we know, stone age people in Ireland went to a lot of trouble to align Newgrange with the Winter solstice.

I don’t see there’s a problem with Christians aligning festivals with those old traditions, or why there even has to be a worry about some traditions being maintained that don’t have a particular religious meaning. It’s good if Brian can see a Christian significance in the traditional Christmas tree. But, for the sake of argument, I don’t see a need to assign a religious meaning to serving mince pies. Like Wicknight, I don't see how something not being Christian is the same as something being evil.

In a similar sense, I don’t see a conflict in former Christians still recognising the event, and valuing it as a time to be spent with family and, if they want, for spiritual reflection. I respect Jimi’s scepticism, and understand his disenchantment with the falseness that can be associated with this time of year. But any holiday is a precious time and, as several have said, we can make Christmas what we want it to be. The idea of having a time of the year where no-one can expect you to be anywhere but at home, and other demands can be set aside, is a welcome break for many us that we just don’t have the power to replicate all through the year.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, even in a Christian frame work?

Do we not have the ability to make free choices, free from influence of both God and Satan? And is it not a choice that we must turn to the "light", rather than that being the default position we would take unless Satan turns us away?

Therefore it stands to reason, within a Christian framework, that people can choose other religions free of influence of both God and Satan, does it not? They are not turning to the light, but they are not benig turned away from it either. Therefore saying paganism is Satans work is both inaccurate and rather unfair on the poor old pagans (since it implies that they are being directed to the work of actually evil, rather than simply a neural position, alebit a position that will lead to an enterity in hell)

It would be nice it it was so.

You can not be a neutral. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Rom 3:23

Since we are all sinners, we can either turn to Jesus for redemption or stay away from Jesus and receive an eternity away from Him.

Satan attempts to influence those decisions. He tries to convince you to stay away from Jesus, that way he can capture your soul. Any belief system that is not of God is therefore of Satan, wrapped and packaged in some way shape or form.

For some good books on the spiritual warfare side of things:
Screwtape Letters, CS Lewis
This Present Darkness, Frank Peretti
Piercing the Darkness, Frank Peretti
Lord Foulgrains Letters, Randy Alcorn

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

It would be nice it it was so.

You can not be a neutral. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Rom 3:23

Since we are all sinners, we can either turn to Jesus for redemption or stay away from Jesus and receive an eternity away from Him.

True, but Satan doesn't necessarily have to be involved with someone turning away from Jesus (ignoring of course the people who have never even heard of Jesus and as such don't have the option of turning towards him).

BrianCalgary wrote:

Satan attempts to influence those decisions.

It is rather presumptuous to say that Satan influences all those decisions, or that all decisions taken to that end are taken as a direct result of Satan, even if he has attempted to influence. Where does that leave free will or the choices that God is supposed to expect us to make. It would suggest that Satan has far more power than is described in the Bible.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

True, but Satan doesn't necessarily have to be involved with someone turning away from Jesus (ignoring of course the people who have never even heard of Jesus and as such don't have the option of turning towards him).


It is rather presumptuous to say that Satan influences all those decisions, or that all decisions taken to that end are taken as a direct result of Satan, even if he has attempted to influence. Where does that leave free will or the choices that God is supposed to expect us to make. It would suggest that Satan has far more power than is described in the Bible.

A friend once said to me that the closer you get to God, the closer Satan gets to you.

I'm sure that Satan and his minions do stay away from a lot of people. there is no need to influence their thinking or direction.

Whereas if you start to move toward Christ then Satans armies will jump in and do what they can to prevent it.

Our free choice maintains in tact, however those choices do get influenced.

Nevyn

BrianCalgary wrote:

I would beg to differ. Anything that takes the focus off Jesus Christ is from Satan.

Would that include angels, our lady mary, saints, the holy spirit from your point of view ?

BrianCalgary

Thaedydal wrote:

Would that include angels, our lady mary, saints, the holy spirit from your point of view ?

Depends on what the object is stating.

Mary is to be venerated as the mother of Jesus but not prayed to or worshipped. The problem I have with any vision of Mary (Fatima, Medjegore, Flushing Meadows) the message becomes on mary as opposed to Christ. The vision is aking for the parayer to be directed to it as opposed to Christ.

Angels the same. in Revelation John bows before an Angel. the angel responds 'no' only bow before the Lamb. An angel is a messenger, it behooves us to ask from whom the message comes?

Saints are in the same boat as Mary. Saints are not omniscient as Christ is. They can not hear prayers. Your local demon can though. Again a prayer to a saint takes the focus off Christ.

As for the Holy Spirit. He was sent by God to do the work. Jesus affirms the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is God, Jesus is God, teh Father is God. All three in perfect relationship.

Schuhart

BrianCalgary wrote:

Saints are not omniscient as Christ is. They can not hear prayers. Your local demon can though. Again a prayer to a saint takes the focus off Christ.

You'll understand that I wouldn't read references to angels and demons literally, and see them more as impulses within our own nature - we can either follow the inclinations that we see as positive or not, as can the people around us.

But I just have a question at how the world could be seen as full of demons, that will hear our prayers and presumably try to pervert them, but devoid of angels capable of counteracting that assault. Intuitively, it doesn't seem to match up to life - the way you can find a little pool of light somewhere on the way, where things go so much easier than you anticipated, then a barrier that was equally unexpected.

How would there only be evil spirits, and no good ones?

BrianCalgary

Schuhart wrote:

You'll understand that I wouldn't read references to angels and demons literally, and see them more as impulses within our own nature - we can either follow the inclinations that we see as positive or not, as can the people around us.

But I just have a question at how the world could be seen as full of demons, that will hear our prayers and presumably try to pervert them, but devoid of angels capable of counteracting that assault. Intuitively, it doesn't seem to match up to life - the way you can find a little pool of light somewhere on the way, where things go so much easier than you anticipated, then a barrier that was equally unexpected.

How would there only be evil spirits, and no good ones?

No the world is not devoid of Angels. I have Angels surrounding me protecting me. And there are demons trying to get to me. But I have told them to go away. This sounds very simple and childlike, but I want nothing to do with demons and everything to do with being surrounded by the messengers and workers of God.

Schuhart

What was puzzling me was more the idea of people being cast adrift in a demon filled world without any spiritual allies. I can handle crystalising the good and bad influences in the world into spirit personalities as sort of poetic image.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

Whereas if you start to move toward Christ then Satans armies will jump in and do what they can to prevent it.

Exactly. So Pagans don't have to have anything to do with Satan, since they are already damning themselves and Satan can ignore them.

JimiTime

BrianCalgary wrote:

4) No, no lies.

They are older now. But Santa visits our house every year still. It is part of the magic.

So lies are ok if they make someone happy?

No. We will erect a Christmas tree. An evergreen in remembrance that eternal life is available throiugh Christ.

So Nimrods mum said that the evergreen was a sign of Nimrods immortality in the spirit realm. Its rebranded as the sign of everlasting life through Jesus. You really don't see and issue here? What if we use a stronger term for arguements sake. What if the tree originally signified, Satans power and immortality. Then 'Christianity' took over and let the people celebrating in this way keep their festival but just gave the tree a different meaning/symbolism. Would Jesus approve? If so, Why?

Nope, give gifts in remembrance of God's gift to us.

Which just so happens to fall on Saturnalia. And those that celebrated Saturnalia also had this ritual, before Christendom had. What a coincidence! I'm sure our King is loving it.

I hope so. Although the mitletoe isn't needed when kissing my wife. Actually don't think we have any hung.

Ah yes, the druid fertilty superstition. Jesus still approving?

If Satan can take that which is glorious and pervert why can we not take what is Satans and use it to glorify God?

Hmmmm... Because decorating a tree, kissing under mistletow, exchanging gifts etc is not glorifying God. Loving your neighbour, helping the poor and orphaned, bringing the message, all with Love as the motivation, that is glorifying God.

I think He would. We are doing it in our home as an act of worship and thanksgiving to Him.

Well I suppose I fundementally disagree with this logic, but there you go.

Cause it is His birthday?

No its not!! We don't know when his birthday is, so Christendom latched onto Pagan festivities!! Its more like a happy un-bithday.

You can make them pagan if you wish and keep them out of your house. We choose to celebrate the eternal life offered through Christ. We celebrate the greatest gift that has ever been given: the sacrifice of God, in coming to Earth to offer Himself in our place.

Its how they are utilised that make them pagan!! not the items themselves. Its a Pagan feast, with Pagan ritual, Pagan symbolism and a Pagan date of worship. Its not just a tree and some shrubs, all of which are part of Gods glorious creation.

They are only pagan, if you make them pagan.

So can I take the symbolism of any pagan, satanic or false religion and rebrand it and celebrate it?

We celebrate that as well. He actually said in Luke 22:19 "do this is remembrance of me". He doesn't tell us when. So why restrict it to Nisan 14? Why not all the time, including His birth?

Yes, remember all the time. No problem. Just to be clear though, it was passover, which falls on Nisan 14.

How do you know that Jesus never had a birhday party?

How do I know he never had a wife and kids? How do I know he didn't own his own shop on the banks of the Jordan, selling toys he made from wood? How do I know he didn't get facial hair 'til he was 16?
This is a non arguement! What it does show though, is that if he did, it wasn't important enough to detail!

The celebration of the birth of the saviour.

Picture this scenario.
Jesus to Christian: Why have you taken and decorated a fir tree in your home in rememberance of My Fathers enemy Nimrod, and exchanged gifts on this day like the ritual of the pagans of Rome did for their false gods?

Christian: But its in memory of everlating life through your sacrifice now. And we celebrate your birth with these things.

Jesus: But I was not born on this day?

Christian: But you see, because you did not leave us a date, we thought we'd make one up. There were also some fun things the Pagans did around this day, so we rebranded them to coincide with your birthday.

Jesus: So on this day, you made in my name, out of the various pagan rituals, what makes it my day?

Christian: We remember your sacrifice for us and your birth.

Jesus: But you do that everyday do you not?

Christian: Well yes, of course I do.

Jesus: Then what makes this day, my day? Does this day show itself good by its fruits?

Christian: Oh yes, we promote peace and goodwill amongst all men, and faith in you.

Jesus: But this is done by you everyday is it not? and who is this fictional charachter you tell your children about?

Christian: Oh thats Santa Clause, we say he delivers presents to all the children on X-Mas day. Kids love it.

Jesus: Does he deliver presents? And what has he to do with me?

Christian: Well, no, we made him up. He doesn't have anything to do with you, but it makes the kids really happy.

Jesus: Let me get this straight! You have a day dedicated to me and my birth. On a day I wasn't born on. Using the rituals and symbols of pagans, on a day the pagans hold in esteem. Part of the ritual is to lie to your children about a guy who has nothing to do with me delivering presents to all the children. Is there any part of this day that has any depth of Christian meaning? Because so far it even promotes lies! Whats going on?

Christian: But its not really a lie, the kids love it and they grow out of it, and understand why it was done.

Jesus: Who is the Father of the lie?

Christian: Satan.

Jesus: Then why do you do his will and not the will of the Father?

Christian: But its only a little one, no harm, just to make the kids happy.

Jesus: A lie and a deceit is what has plundered the world into distress, do not lie anymore! And another thing, this day has not got my blessing. If you wish to worship and remember, Love your neighbour. Help the poor and the orphaned, and go give the good news freely. Give up on these shallow pagan rituals. They certainly have no meaning to me!

Believe it or not, this little play was what convinced me that X-Mas was a fraud. I heard the same arguements about santa clause and the pagan stuff, but it just didn't sit right. I pictured myself, honestly in conversation with Jesus and the verse above was basically what I concluded. I know its a time of year most can't do without. But it is certainly NOT Christian!!

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote:

I pictured myself, honestly in conversation with Jesus and the verse above was basically what I concluded

If that is how Jesus would really respond he really needs to lighten up

Scofflaw

Happy Midwinter! And a safe and prosperous Sunreturn to you all!

cordially,
Scofflaw

Schuhart

JimiTime wrote:

So can I take the symbolism of any pagan, satanic or false religion and rebrand it and celebrate it?

I’m most of the way through the Gospel of Matthew at the moment. The teachings contained in that text are interesting and valuable, and when I’ve finished it completely I hope to start a thread on that topic. But, by the by, I couldn’t help noticing that one of the ‘proofs’ that Matthew offers to illustrate the divinity of Jesus is that his birth was predicted by astrology. This suggests to me that there isn’t a completely clear dividing line between Christianity and what preceded it. If the Gospels are willing to borrow from what went before, why the need to retrospectively impose some elusive purity?

Matthew 2:1,2
After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem and asked, "Where is the one who has been born king of the Jews? We saw his star in the east and have come to worship him."

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

Exactly. So Pagans don't have to have anything to do with Satan, since they are already damning themselves and Satan can ignore them.

Almost. Pagans have everything to do with Satan. Because they choose to worship a false god, they are worshipping Satan.

Satan just doesn't need to bother with them, unless he has to step in and reinforce the lie behind the false god.

JimiTime

Wicknight wrote:

If that is how Jesus would really respond he really needs to lighten up

Ah yes. The world according to Wicknight and his infinite wisdom. Have you got a newsletter?

Nevyn

And all the Gods that are not Jeovah aka the christian god are satan and his dress up kit.

I do undersand this point of view, one of my firends who is a born again christain has this point of view and ocassionally she will mention that she prays for me and I tell her I pray for her too the conversation tends to go " you're damned you know " and I will reply " yep and your delusional"; there is no spite and no malice in this exchange and while we differ on those points
there is plenty about life, livign in this country and the human condition for us to talk about.

I will happy admit that for a person the christain life is the life for them and the christain god is thier one true god, but I can not acknowledge that the christain god is the one true god fullstop for the entire world.

So in the spirit of the season I agree that we dissagree and wish you and yours BrianCalgary happy christmas and a peaceful and prosperus new year.

BrianCalgary

Thaedydal wrote:

So in the spirit of the season I agree that we dissagree and wish you and yours BrianCalgary happy christmas and a peaceful and prosperus new year.

thanks Thaedydal, All the best of the season to you and yours as well. Merry Christmas.

BrianCalgary

Schuhart wrote:

I’m most of the way through the Gospel of Matthew at the moment. The teachings contained in that text are interesting and valuable, and when I’ve finished it completely I hope to start a thread on that topic.?

Look forward to it.

Schuhart wrote:

But, by the by, I couldn’t help noticing that one of the ‘proofs’ that Matthew offers to illustrate the divinity of Jesus is that his birth was predicted by astrology. This suggests to me that there isn’t a completely clear dividing line between Christianity and what preceded it. If the Gospels are willing to borrow from what went before, why the need to retrospectively impose some elusive purity?

There is a difference between the astrological study of the movements of the heavenly bodies and the looking to the stars to predict your future.

God utilised a natural sign to come into the world, the wisemen recognized the sign and responded by worshipping the Lord.

An astrologer who uses the 'stars' to attempt to predict future events is then focussing somewhere other than God.

JimiTime

BrianCalgary wrote:

God utilised a natural sign to come into the world, the wisemen recognized the sign and responded by worshipping the Lord.

An astrologer who uses the 'stars' to attempt to predict future events is then focussing somewhere other than God.

So why did the star first lead them to Herod?

Nevyn

Even I know that one, it did not lead them to herod but as they were kings of thier own lands they stopped by Herods to pay thier respect and to ensure that their would not be a siplomatic incdent over thier visit.
They also figured he would know about the star and the coming of Emaneulle and would be able to direct them to were to go saving them time.

Instead they were treated to investigation and were only allowed leave after saying they woudl return and tell the where abouts of the child born to be king to Herod.

Which of course they didn't which resulted in the slaughter of the innocents.

They went to the place thinking the child would be there and found they were in the wrong place and had to reconsider thier perceptions and look again to find the child in of all places a barn.

Schuhart

BrianCalgary wrote:

There is a difference between the astrological study of the movements of the heavenly bodies and the looking to the stars to predict your future.

God utilised a natural sign to come into the world, the wisemen recognized the sign and responded by worshipping the Lord.

An astrologer who uses the 'stars' to attempt to predict future events is then focussing somewhere other than God.

In fairness, that doesn’t seem massively different. I’m no expert on astrology, but I take its basis to be that knowledge can be found by looking at the sky. Matthew seems to suggest that, on at least one occasion, this was true.

As I see it, all Matthew seems to be doing is setting a scene by saying ‘this man’s birth was foretold’. By the same token he sets down a lineage for Joseph going back to Abraham. In one sense to be unnecessary, as he’s not regarded as the father of Jesus. But presumably the intention is to communicate ‘this foretold birth happened in a family historically favoured by God’.

I don’t see this as a crucial part of that Gospel’s message, although clearly the idea that Matthew might use something from the culture around him does not cause me a problem. For me, the real action starts at Chapter 5 and the Sermon on the Mount.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

Almost. Pagans have everything to do with Satan. Because they choose to worship a false god, they are worshipping Satan.

Sorry still not following how that works. So Hindus are actual Satan worshippers?

What does that make Satanists, people who actually worship Satan (the Christian Satan) and who are aware of that fact? Does the Bible not recongise that other gods exist? You seem to be saying that all other gods are satan dressed up?

BrianCalgary

Schuhart wrote:

In fairness, that doesn’t seem massively different. I’m no expert on astrology, but I take its basis to be that knowledge can be found by looking at the sky. Matthew seems to suggest that, on at least one occasion, this was true.

As I see it, all Matthew seems to be doing is setting a scene by saying ‘this man’s birth was foretold’. By the same token he sets down a lineage for Joseph going back to Abraham. In one sense to be unnecessary, as he’s not regarded as the father of Jesus. But presumably the intention is to communicate ‘this foretold birth happened in a family historically favoured by God’.

I don’t see this as a crucial part of that Gospel’s message, although clearly the idea that Matthew might use something from the culture around him does not cause me a problem. For me, the real action starts at Chapter 5 and the Sermon on the Mount.

The difference being, I like looking at the stars, I wish I had a telescope and no city and the time to watch and chart the stars and planetary movement, etc. That would make me an astrologer from a scientific standpoint, I have absolutely no interest in thinking the stars can tell me something about my future and my personality.

I'm with you on Chapter 5, here beginneth the lesson.

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

Sorry still not following how that works. So Hindus are actual Satan worshippers?

What does that make Satanists, people who actually worship Satan (the Christian Satan) and who are aware of that fact? Does the Bible not recongise that other gods exist? You seem to be saying that all other gods are satan dressed up?

I think you've got it. Any false god is from Satan, not necessarily called by that name.

Al least Satanists know who they are worshipping, the rest have been deceived into worshipping a false god.

Scofflaw

BrianCalgary wrote:

The difference being, I like looking at the stars, I wish I had a telescope and no city and the time to watch and chart the stars and planetary movement, etc. That would make me an astrologer from a scientific standpoint...

Er, are you sure of your terminology here? I think that would make you an amateur astronomer.

cordially,
Scofflaw

BrianCalgary

Scofflaw wrote:

Er, are you sure of your terminology here? I think that would make you an amateur astronomer.

cordially,
Scofflaw

thanks for the correction scofflaw, you are absolutely right.:o

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

I think you've got it. Any false god is from Satan, not necessarily called by that name.

Al least Satanists know who they are worshipping, the rest have been deceived into worshipping a false god.

Can humans not invent false gods just from human imagination? You seem to be saying that if Satan didn't exist we would all worship God. Which opens up a whole can of worms of theological issues.

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

Can humans not invent false gods just from human imagination? You seem to be saying that if Satan didn't exist we would all worship God. Which opens up a whole can of worms of theological issues.

Surely not. After all, God's revelation would still have been extremely local, so presumably people outside the favoured area would have been atheists if the devil hadn't prompted them into worshipping false gods...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nevyn

Again the case of We are the Other people and Yahweh is not our god.