Something's been bugging me...

shmaido

Are we actually getting that much better or are all the usual powerhouses of rugby getting worse (obvious exception being N.Z.),like England,S.A.,Australia,France, all used to sh*t on us when they wanted to until relatively recently, all seem to be taking steps backwards in my eyes, some more than others but all definitely backwards. At club level too, the likes of Toulouse(especially),Leicester, Wasps, Bath, I could go on i think u get the point.

If you took the current state of Irish rugby and you transported it back 4 or 6years ago, would we still be doing as well at club and country level?

chicoben

i think its taken kind of a twist, see when they were good we were shi*e, and now that we're good, they're shi*e, its a vicious circle

shmaido

And therin lies the problem, all of our usual benchmarks that we used to gauge ourselves off have gone to sh*t, so basically are we really as good as we think we are? well I suppose N.Z. next year will answer that (thats if we dont do our characteristic "slip on banana peel" routine)

chicoben

either way i we'll meet them dont we? whether it be the semi's or quarters, see we thought of those nations as being good when we were crap, so now let them think about us being good.......just be happy that we're winning!

CJhaughey

chicoben wrote:

either way i we'll meet them dont we? whether it be the semi's or quarters,

I wouldn't say that just yet, remember the small matter of getting out of our pool.
France, and Argentina are both in the same pool as us and neither are likely to be a pushover come the RWC 07.

il gatto

I think the current Australia whould have walloped us 6 years ago. Probably South Africa too. It would have been good to guage ourselves against N.Z. but maybe if we lost badly, it would knock the confidence.
I don't think the other teams are that bad. The control and professionalism in the Irish squad is truly outstandind at the moment. That, and the fitness. Gone are the days of teams capable of beating good sides, flagging in the last 15-20 minutes and losing.
I think it's hard to take in as we're so used of either being rubbish, or valiant losers, with the odd moment of glory.
Next year will tell a tale. France will be much better come the Six Nations, and Wales, with Llanelli flying high, will be tough away from home. Even the English will put up a fight. They'll be with a new coach, and they'll not want to lose to Ireland four years running. There's alot of rugby to play before the World Cup rolls around.

Webbs

il gatto wrote:

I think the current Australia whould have walloped us 6 years ago. Probably South Africa too. It would have been good to guage ourselves against N.Z. but maybe if we lost badly, it would knock the confidence.
I don't think the other teams are that bad. The control and professionalism in the Irish squad is truly outstandind at the moment. That, and the fitness. Gone are the days of teams capable of beating good sides, flagging in the last 15-20 minutes and losing.
I think it's hard to take in as we're so used of either being rubbish, or valiant losers, with the odd moment of glory.
Next year will tell a tale. France will be much better come the Six Nations, and Wales, with Llanelli flying high, will be tough away from home. Even the English will put up a fight. They'll be with a new coach, and they'll not want to lose to Ireland four years running. There's alot of rugby to play before the World Cup rolls around.

Good post.

I think there is very little to call between the top teams at the moment (NZ possibly being exception). Ireland are the beneficiaries of ringfencing their players for international duty. So they are a most certainly fresher , sharper and more in tune as a team.

Without doubt Ireland are the most consistent team than the likes of France, Wales, Aus etc. however, I think on their day any of these teams can turn over any of the others.

Amazotheamazing

Just becuase the papers say we're great doesn't actually mean we're great.

Look at it this way, France whipped us 3 years running, a semi strenght NZ beat us twice, a full strenght NZ whipped us, we needed a last minute wonder try to beat a very poor England, we were up against it against Italy, we beat the second poorest SA team to ever leave SA, we beat a pretty limited Australia, who were both experimenting and resting players. 18 months ago Wales routed us in Wales. Are we that good, or are people just getting carried away?

Trojan

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Just becuase the papers say we're great doesn't actually mean we're great.

Look at it this way, France whipped us 3 years running, a semi strenght NZ beat us twice, a full strenght NZ whipped us, we needed a last minute wonder try to beat a very poor England, we were up against it against Italy, we beat the second poorest SA team to ever leave SA, we beat a pretty limited Australia, who were both experimenting and resting players. 18 months ago Wales routed us in Wales. Are we that good, or are people just getting carried away?

Or look at it this way... we lost the first test against the best NZ in recent history due to 2 stupid mistakes, Munster are unbeaten 12 games in the Heineken Cup, and their 31 game unbeaten home record is... well a record! Leinster are beating playng out of their skins both home and away against solid opposition while missing their kicker/playmaker/man of the season from last year, and Ulster are the form team in the Celtic League.

Are we that bad, or are you just getting carried away?

:P

Amazotheamazing

It's about balance Trojan. The current Irish team is probably as fine a one as we've ever produced, and yet, as results show, when we lose POC and notably BOD, we tend to come to pieces. Imo, this Irish team should have a 6n's by now though.

Anyhow, look at the Leinster team, foreign players in several key positions (what's happened Willis btw?) and Cheikia def has a problem with trying Leinster born forwards, guys like Wickham, Ronan, Devin Toner should be brought in more. Ulster also have a share of unqualifiable players too. Munster's most important player last season was arguably the South African Halstead etc etc. So yeah, the provinces are going great, but in Leinster's case it's also slowing down Leinster-born forwards coming through, and in Munster, apart from Halstead, they still have to find a way to replace HAyes, Quinlain and Wallace are getting on too. It's not all rosy.

Anyhow, after all that negativity, we do have a great chance for the 6n's.

irish_bob

personally i cant stand rugby , it has to be thee most boring game thier is
you hardly ever have more than a minutes continous play without the ball being knocked or kicked over the line and the amount of rules are endless
as someone once said about rugby , its the swatty student who sits up straight in class , sport ,who then gets in touch with his macho side when he shoves his head in some other guys balls
on top of that , in ireland its still a minority sport , but due to the class of clientelle who follow it , its gets a hugely disproportionate level of media coverage
i think you have to be born into rugby , its a culture , you have to go to the right schools etc
and dont tell me that its a working class game in munster , thats a myth , as someone said recently , the only reason we think that regular people play rugby in munster is because when you come from limerick or cork , you dont sound posh
give me a good game of soccer any day

shmaido

irish_bob wrote:

personally i cant stand rugby , it has to be thee most boring game thier is
you hardly ever have more than a minutes continous play without the ball being knocked or kicked over the line and the amount of rules are endless
as someone once said about rugby , its the swatty student who sits up straight in class , sport ,who then gets in touch with his macho side when he shoves his head in some other guys balls
on top of that , in ireland its still a minority sport , but due to the class of clientelle who follow it , its gets a hugely disproportionate level of media coverage
i think you have to be born into rugby , its a culture , you have to go to the right schools etc
and dont tell me that its a working class game in munster , thats a myth , as someone said recently , the only reason we think that regular people play rugby in munster is because when you come from limerick or cork , you dont sound posh
give me a good game of soccer any day

Personally... I think you should maybe stick to your soccer forums then..thanks though, much appreciated.

Liam Byrne

give me a good game of soccer any day

And therein lies the heart of the comparison......a "good" game of soccer vs a "good" game of rugby.....

Both codes have their share of ****e games, particularly if you look at the antics of some soccer players. Soccer can also have loads of timeouts, as when you take all the timewasting, throw-ins, goal kicks, corners, free-kicks, etc, the ball is actually in play for about 60 minutes of each match. In rugby, if there's a stoppage, the clock is stopped so that the time is accurate; while the stoppages may be a nuisance, you're still guaranteed 80 minutes of rugby.

And there's SFA chance of "gamesmanship", either. A foul is a foul and the Sin-Bin roots out the fouling to a huge extent.

As for the observation about having to be "born into rugby; that's not true; I wasn't, and I had no interest in rugby until about 9 years ago.....since then, I firmly believe that a good rugby match is better than a good soccer match, and I've been at more Munster matches than soccer matches.

Finally, as for disproportionate levels of coverage, there are 2 reasons; first is because it was, up to last year, the only major sport that Sky hadn't taken from "average" people (their definition = non-subscribers) so terrestrial had to take it up in order to show live matches (after which Sky predictably jumped on the bandwagon with euro signs in their eyes). Plus, you surely can't say that soccer (particularly Premiership soccer) doesn't get too much coverage ? Particularly the supposed "big four" teams ?

If you didn't like Premiership soccer, you'd definitely be complaining that there was too much coverage (especially the stupid "we can't show you a match in the afternoon, so here's a talking head with continuously-changing current scores") - surely that is a ridiculous attempt at "coverage" which should be dumped ? Can you imagine that setup for rugby ?

Maybe I'm lucky in that I like both, but having said that there's no way I'd sit and watch a those talking head current scores on TV shows for either sport.

davyjose

Irish bob, what the hell are you on a Rugby forum for then? Do you really think anyone gives a sh*t whether or not you like Rugby? Why don't you find something you do like, and say something about that. Off you go; Daddy wants his laptop back and Santy doesn't like naughty boys who stay up past their bedtime.
Amazo, the two major areas Leinster use foreigners are at the halfbalk positions. Fortunately, recently we've seen that Ronan O'Gara would be most countries' starting out-half (how much would England give for him now?) to my mind the best in the NH. Stringer, I've never been sure about, but Boss's display has perked up my interest big-time.
Of course this all points to the fact that outside of our starting XV, we've very few options. Strength in depth is not our strength, and there's a long way to go between now and the WC. But we're certainly in with our biggest shout in a long time.

Chucky the tree

Its all about the nfl lads.

Anyway, i think Ireland are over-rated. What excaclty have we done thats been so great?

il gatto

We have to get over the whole France thing. They've been our real bogey team for too long.
With regards to beating England by a one try last year, I think your expectations have grown with everyone elses. Not that long ago, we only dreamt of beating England in Twickenham. Now one good try to win isn't enough?
We've beaten England three years running so far. Twice in Twickenham. Even if they've had a bad run the last couple of years, we beat them away shortly after they won the World Cup. Ireland is still the same team at it's core, give or take, and are better now than three years ago.
I think we all find it hard to accept, and next year will be the big test, but I think Ireland are damn near as good as people say. I've spent a bit of time looking at rugby sites from South Africa and Australia, and to see journos and posters going into the match fearing the worst and talking up a few small positives they got afterwards, whilst basically saying Ireland stuffed them and they didn't really have a chance, is such a massive change from only a couple of years ago. I'm just enjoying it while it lasts. If we're found out along the way, well what can you do. But for now.....:D

Clareman

At present I believe that Irish rugby as a whole is the best in the world, the club vs. country issue does not affect us, in our main competition all of ours teams are competitive, no other can say that, in the Super 14 there are a number of weak teams.

Our international team has been the most consitant in their competition over the last 3/4 years, NZ have it over us here.

I honestly believe that we are the second best team in the world, if we can shake the whole thing of not being comfortable with being favourites I think we can go a very long way in the World Cup, NZ will be the team to beat, they will be for every other team in the competition

Erin Go Brath

We're defintely on an a series upward curve, 2007 will tell a lot, but personally I'm very optomistic about us picking up from our 3 wins against S.Hemisphere teams, where we left off. 6N's is going to be highly interesting, Ireland may well be the best positioned to win it this year, and who knows how far we can go in the WC? We should no longer fear any team really, even NZ we can have a good crack at them, and possibly turn them over (everybody in green has to play to 100% of their ability if thats to materialise).

As for that guy that reckons rugby is boring; theres always someone trying to stir something up on these threads. Rugby is far more entertaining than the vast majority of sports imo. If watching the powerful munster forwards charging up the field, or the exciting running of the leinster backs doesnt get you going, I suggest taking up tiddlywinks, sport is just not meant for you!!!!!!!!!