Bupa to pull out of Ireland

Trampas

BUPA Ireland forced to close it's business

"We have no choice but to leave the market with great regret" Martin O'Rourke

www.bupa.ie

tbh

on the bright side, at least it's an end to those stupid radio ads.

CJhaughey

Back to a Monopoly methinks, Thanks to the PD's and FF Govt.

Devon

Risk equalisation my ass. VHI aren't obliged to "take on" older sicker people if they don't want to, and if they do, their premiums should be representative of their condition, just like car insurance. The VHI bosses will be popping corks about now...

thefinalstage

This is bullsh*t!

Damn...more job losses. I can see a pattern starting to emerge...

wheelbarrow

..at least the practise safe sex.

aidan_walsh

Press Release

Current members who have recently renewed will remain fully covered. For anyone who is in hospital or about to arrange any medical treatment they remain covered. Members will continue to be provided with a comprehensive, quality service until all contracts have expired and claims under those contracts are settled. No new members or renewals of membership will be accepted from today. Members are legally entitled, if they wish, to transfer to another insurer with no break in insurance cover.

At least policy holders will be honoured until their policies expire.

tvbrat

Trampas wrote:

BUPA Ireland forced to close it's business

"We have no choice but to leave the market with great regret" Martin O'Rourke

www.bupa.ie

Notice to BUPA Ireland members and all health insurance customers
http://www.bupa.ie/memberletter2.html


BUPA Ireland Statement
http://www.bupa.ie/news/press/pressreleases_141206

Kinetic^

CJhaughey wrote:

Back to a Monopoly methinks, Thanks to the PD's and FF Govt.

Yeah ffs, these muppets have to go!!!!!!

dodgyme

go with vivas - long live choice

Nightwish

And once Vivas have built uo a market, they will be forced to make risk equalisation payments.

It has to be noted that BUPA are a beneficiary of Risk equalisation in Australia, but the market is different over there. There are many more insurers, who all have a pretty even share of the market, and the RE payments a relatively small. Its wholly unfair to ask BUPA to pay multiples of there profits to their main competitor, who has 78% of the market share.

Sniipe

were both companies not forced to pay? Why did only Bupa pay.

This is a terrible thing to happen. Bupa are/were a good company, I never had any trouble with them while I was with them. Granted, I wasn't sick with either, but I've since started a new job and they are covered by VHI. I hope I wasn't the straw that broke the camel's back.

fatboypee

Am I missing something here ?????

The way I see the Bupa thing is this:

Government owns a big insurance business (part owns anyway), Government then decides it cannot continue to fund said insurance business and looks for get-out-clause, said business provides a get-out clause by squealling about an age deficit and rumouring "Cherry Picking" of it's more successful competitors, Government then passes a law (as its supposed to do) to obscenely levy the main competition and force it to fund the governments business... subsequently the main competitor withdraws from the market...

Is this not what happened ?

Oh, I forgot to add as well the following:

When you are a private patient (covered by said competitor) in hosptial (public as there are no private ones yet :rolleyes:), the scale of charges is set out by that hospital as per guidelines from the HSE. Your insurere is then charged for EVERY expense you incur in that hospital, no, not minus the allowance you would receive as a public patient, EVERY expense, regardless. So, in effect, the amount payable by the government for your care as is warranted by your PRSI is kept by the government.

To add insult to this injury , the government also charges VAT on that bill.

Maybe I'm wrong on the second point ? Someone help me out if I am. I just find the whole debacle of "risk equalisation" in this country a laugh, and we're told we're awash with cash and we get pence back on our taxes (woo fookin' hoo!!!), tell that to the health service that has to rely so heavilly on the private insurers in the first place...

Oh, and when you need long term care in a nursing home (leas Cross here we come :eek: ) you'll have to pay for it out of your estate.... :mad:

lovely... who said wer'e more than third world nowadays ?? who said it... comeon, I wanna know... cos you're wrong....

Fatboy.

Nightwish

Sniipe wrote:

were both companies not forced to pay? Why did only Bupa pay.

Vivas have only got approx 2% of the market. They'll be made pay too once they have a bigger market share.

kizzyr

fatboypee wrote:

Am I missing something here ?????

The way I see the Bupa thing is this:

Government owns a big insurance business (part owns anyway), Government then decides it cannot continue to fund said insurance business and looks for get-out-clause, said business provides a get-out clause by squealling about an age deficit and rumouring "Cherry Picking" of it's more successful competitors, Government then passes a law (as its supposed to do) to obscenely levy the main competition and force it to fund the governments business... subsequently the main competitor withdraws from the market...

Is this not what happened ?

Oh, I forgot to add as well the following:

When you are a private patient (covered by said competitor) in hosptial (public as there are no private ones yet :rolleyes:), the scale of charges is set out by that hospital as per guidelines from the HSE. Your insurere is then charged for EVERY expense you incur in that hospital, no, not minus the allowance you would receive as a public patient, EVERY expense, regardless. So, in effect, the amount payable by the government for your care as is warranted by your PRSI is kept by the government.

To add insult to this injury , the government also charges VAT on that bill.

Maybe I'm wrong on the second point ? Someone help me out if I am. I just find the whole debacle of "risk equalisation" in this country a laugh, and we're told we're awash with cash and we get pence back on our taxes (woo fookin' hoo!!!), tell that to the health service that has to rely so heavilly on the private insurers in the first place...

Oh, and when you need long term care in a nursing home (leas Cross here we come :eek: ) you'll have to pay for it out of your estate.... :mad:

lovely... who said wer'e more than third world nowadays ?? who said it... comeon, I wanna know... cos you're wrong....

Fatboy.

Applauds your point and agrees 100%. Bloody FF and bloody Mary Harney, God how I hate that woman. Not a hope that risk equalisation will apply to car insurance will it? :rolleyes: BUPA had approached VHI and together with VIVAS (who obviously know that they are the next target) offered to take all of the older more expensive clients from VHI at no expense to the client, no change in their cover etc etc as an alternative to paying out all that money. VHI, kind caring company that they are, with their clients health and welfare to the fore at all times, said no thanks we want the money. :mad: And what angers me most of all is that people are going to vote this shower of gangsters back in for another term and then wonder why they're being ripped off!!

com7

devon is wrong there vhi and vivas are obliged to take bupa customers if their sick or not , you can transfer to both of them once you were covered by bupa i transfered to vivas from vhi in august and my son had his gromets done in october and i had a colonscopy last month and no problems vivas paid the bill , very happy with them

Tabnabs

BUPA to withdraw from Irish market

14 December 2006 13:58
The health insurer, BUPA Ireland, is to withdraw from the Irish market.

The company is blaming the move on a scheme known as risk equalisation - which it says compels it to pay €1 million every week to compensate other insurance providers for covering older consumers.

300 people who work for BUPA, mainly in Fermoy, Co Cork, have been told their jobs are at risk.

The Minister for Health, Mary Harney, has said she very much regrets BUPA's decision.

BUPA says it will no longer accept new members and current memberships will not be renewed.

It says anyone who is in hospital, or about to arrange any medical treatment will remain covered.

Members are entitled to transfer to another insurer with no break in insurance cover.

The managing director of BUPA Ireland, Martin O'Rourke, said Irish consumers are the real losers as the market will be restored to a virtual monopoly.

BUPA has been providing health insurance here for the past ten years. It now has 475,000 members - a 22% share of the Irish market.

It has been warning for some time that they would pull out of here if they were forced to make risk equalisation payments to other companies - mainly the dominant insurer the VHI.

These payments are intended to compensate the VHI for the extra cost of providing insurance for its much older age-profile consumers.

But BUPA, which has challenged these payments in the courts, insists that these payments made its business unviable.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1214/bupa.html

____________
I'm with BUPA, so am really pi$$ed off!
One more nail in the governments coffin I hope!

houseoffun14

Just emailed my local FF TD's informing them not to bother calling to my door looking for my vote. This is a joke, utterly disgraceful.

aidanodr

Well Guys,

I realise Health is far more important but I have to say the following -

Bupa now gone ala VHI and recently SMART gone ala EIRCOM. The incumbants are screwing any chance of competition in Ireland PLC. As was with the 45000 Smart customers, the bulk of the 450,000 Bupa customers will go back to VHI - OUT OF FEAR. As with the Smart situation people will basically say hey back to VHI with me, at least they aint goin under and I am stayin put from here on in. This now ruins any hope for new competition to enter the market in the future, not alone in health but in all other market areas.

Also - look out for general health price increases and win back ads on the radio, tv and the web from VHI and VIVAS

Cheers
Aidan [ already bitten by the smart/eircom situation ]

jimmycrackcorm

I don't know why people blame FF/PD's on this because I look at the situation differently.

BTW I'm a member of Bupa and will move to Vivas. Let's not forget that BUPA has already made tens of millions of Euro in profits and now very convienently wants to get out rather than operate a long term business plan.

VHI have been putting up the prices to reflect the real rising costs of medial care. So why haven't most people migrated from VHI for a cheaper policy? Well because BUPA have also been putting up their prices to ensure that they don't get a whole horde of old people moving over. After all they were making plenty of profit.

What BUPA are saying now that is in realistic market conditions the business is just not profitable enough to be in.

I wonder myself why more people just didn't move over to save a few bob.

fatboypee

BTW I'm a member of Bupa and will move to Vivas. Let's not forget that BUPA has already made tens of millions of Euro in profits and now very convienently wants to get out rather than operate a long term business plan.

VHI have been putting up the prices to reflect the real rising costs of medial care. So why haven't most people migrated from VHI for a cheaper policy? Well because BUPA have also been putting up their prices to ensure that they don't get a whole horde of old people moving over. After all they were making plenty of profit.

What BUPA are saying now that is in realistic market conditions the business is just not profitable enough to be in.

Very sorry, but I don't buy this line. Having already approached VHI to offer a compromise on the age demographic spread of custom and been rebuffed, Bupa had very little option IMHO other than to vote with their feet.

The Government at least PART OWNS VHI, the government, influences heavilly, if not actually sets the tariffs charged to the Insurers by the hopsitals (in your terms the 'rising costs' of health care).

If the government were interested in anything other than controlling a monopoly it would have cut VHI loose on public flotation and allowed it to manage its own financial costs and affairs (thereby levelling the playing field!)

Alas, it looks to me anyway like the underlying intention of the move to implement risk equalisation was to make VHI a better option when the come to sell it off.

Of course, the issue here is that VHI wholly underpins the so called "public health" service already. If the government stood by and let BUPA take a larger stake than currently then indirectly, the government would have to fund more of the health service year on year that it "says" it cannot afford to do.

Ask yourself one question if you disagree, if BUPA had the older demographic, would BUPA get a look-in in risk equalisation to the cost of VHI ? I think NOT !

Fatboy.

Cabaal

its a sad sad day
less competition here we come........

ejmaztec

Is this some other anti-monopoly (or otherwise) EU directive that the Irish Government is in breach of? The usual case of "We'll take the EU funds but we won't do anything to comply with agreements that we've signed"

Kashkai

I was with the VHI for years and put up with their shoddy claims service, rude customer service agents and of course constant price increases.

When BUPA came into the Irish market, I was probably one of the first to join them. What a breath of fresh air they were. Very customer friendly, efficient and their prices were lower. They introduced many new innovative ideas that the VHI were forced to copy such as paying you half your out patient costs.

Typical of this bloody country that when we have something that actually works - i.e. an efficient service provider like BUPA - the powers that be do everything they can to fook it up. BUPA was here to make a profit and whats wrong with that? They still had lower prices than the VHI. Risk equalisation is a joke. What company would run itself into the ground in order to subsidise a semi state company. There was nothing to stop older people moving to Bupa. Its just that they wouldn't get off their asses and change companies. Its just lazy inertia that prevents people from moving from the "good old reliables" like Eircom and the VHI to newer players in the market.

I've just gotten off the phone with a helpful and courteous BUPA customer service agent (who is now out of a job in the run up to Christmas folks). I was enquiring if I would still be covered for next year (I am) and she assured me that any medical bills I incur would be covered until January 2008. Before I hung up, I asked her was she being let go and she said she was "on notice" but that probably meant yes. I told her I was sorry that she would be out of a job soon but with her pleasant and courteous demeanour, she would be an asset to any company.

Trampas

Prosperous Dave wrote:

I was with the VHI for years and put up with their shoddy claims service, rude customer service agents and of course constant price increases.

When BUPA came into the Irish market, I was probably one of the first to join them. What a breath of fresh air they were. Very customer friendly, efficient and their prices were lower. They introduced many new innovative ideas that the VHI were forced to copy such as paying you half your out patient costs.

Typical of this bloody country that when we have something that actually works - i.e. an efficient service provider like BUPA - the powers that be do everything they can to fook it up. BUPA was here to make a profit and whats wrong with that? They still had lower prices than the VHI. Risk equalisation is a joke. What company would run itself into the ground in order to subsidise a semi state company. There was nothing to stop older people moving to Bupa. Its just that they wouldn't get off their asses and change companies. Its just lazy inertia that prevents people from moving from the "good old reliables" like Eircom and the VHI to newer players in the market.

I've just gotten off the phone with a helpful and courteous BUPA customer service agent (who is now out of a job in the run up to Christmas folks). I was enquiring if I would still be covered for next year (I am) and she assured me that any medical bills I incur would be covered until January 2008. Before I hung up, I asked her was she being let go and she said she was "on notice" but that probably meant yes. I told her I was sorry that she would be out of a job soon but with her pleasant and courteous demeanour, she would be an asset to any company.

I hope you told her to mention it to her td when (s)he comes knocking on the door come GE time that its his fault she is out of a job

BANZAI_RUNNER

Im a member of Bupa, as is my wife,(who is pregnant) , we contacted Bupa today , and they told us that we would be covered until jan 2008, as would the baby when it arrives, so we are pretty happy about that , but annoyed with the shower who are running this country and every hard working person into the ground, now we have a problem , who to transfer to after jan 2008, Vivas will be in the same boat as Bupa by then , and i'd rather burn the money than give it to Vhi, The only saving grace is that with the Election on the horizon, and it may be a lot closer now, i'm declaring open season on any FF/ PD B*ST*RDS who wander on to my property canvassing before the election.

Santa Claus

No government will ever get rid of risk equalisation, because then the older member would be charged more....and who are the people who make it their business to vote at every election....OLDER PEOPLE.
The key to winning any election is the Silver/Grey vote as often people are too busy commuting into work early and then working late to get a chance to vote but the retired folk get their come hell or high water !

Why can't the government subsidise risk equalisation....after all they'd be paying the full whack for these older people if they didn't have their own private medical insurance !?!

BANZAI_RUNNER

Try to imagine this
475,000 members in Bupa , now imagine if 10% decided that to hell with private health insurance and went public , that would be 47,500 more hospital trollies in the already overcrowded hospitals ,
But then if FF/PD know they are going to be out next election why should they bother to get the country in order, it would suit them to leave this mess for the new government to sort out , then the FF/PDs are shouting the loudest in opposition regarding the mess they left behind.
Then theres the 15% death tax, and the 6% rise in private health insurance premiums to pay for the cost of the HSE providing a better PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICE, SO NOT ONLY DO WE HAVE TO PAY FOR OUR PRIVATE HEALTH CARE , BUT WHILE WE ARE AT IT WE ARE PAYING FOR THE PUBLIC HEALTH CARE, can anyone tell me what we are paying our taxes for

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

This is an utter disgrace.
I presume Mary Harney will be forced to step down?

ambrose :cool:

Vmaxer

kingambrose wrote:

This is an utter disgrace.
I presume Mary Harney will be forced to step down?

ambrose :cool:

You have no idea how much that would make My Day..

I'm going to save the money I give to Bupa and go Public,

God knows You will get the same service anyway, once You get of the Trolly..

FF/Pd's Don't knock on My door either..

parsi

Prosperous Dave wrote:

I was with the VHI for years and put up with their shoddy claims service, rude customer service agents and of course constant price increases.

Strange really how everyone's mileage varies. I haven't had any issues with VHIs claims service - it fact for me it has been painless. Their customer service agents that I have dealt with have been fine. And of course they have increases every year. But so do Bupa. And so do the doctors and so do the hospitals.

It would be nice if we didn't have to have health insurance but hey that would have to be funded from taxes and the PDs hate taxes.

fatboypee

Heard this morning that some institution is to recommend VHI be broken up...

thereby the excuse for the government to step up and float VHI, secure in the knowledge that risk equalisation will ensure a good flotation price as the VHI stock will not be seen as a vulnerable investment...

Great job Mary, as per usual.....

Tazz T

aidanodr wrote:

Well Guys,

I realise Health is far more important but I have to say the following -

Bupa now gone ala VHI and recently SMART gone ala EIRCOM. The incumbants are screwing any chance of competition in Ireland PLC. As was with the 45000 Smart customers, the bulk of the 450,000 Bupa customers will go back to VHI - OUT OF FEAR. As with the Smart situation people will basically say hey back to VHI with me, at least they aint goin under and I am stayin put from here on in. This now ruins any hope for new competition to enter the market in the future, not alone in health but in all other market areas.

Also - look out for general health price increases and win back ads on the radio, tv and the web from VHI and VIVAS

Cheers
Aidan [ already bitten by the smart/eircom situation ]

Totally agree with your sentiment Aidan. Can I add ESB and the Vintners Association to your tally of organisations that the gov has assisted in making the Irish market one of the most uncompetitive in the world.

fatboypee

parsi wrote:

Strange really how everyone's mileage varies. I haven't had any issues with VHIs claims service - it fact for me it has been painless. Their customer service agents that I have dealt with have been fine. And of course they have increases every year. But so do Bupa. And so do the doctors and so do the hospitals.

It would be nice if we didn't have to have health insurance but hey that would have to be funded from taxes and the PDs hate taxes.

Indeed it would be great if we didn't have to have private health insurance, but as we do, would'nt it also be great if it was truely private as well ? I.E. NOT just public health care plus coverage of a PUBLIC HEALTH CONSULTANT only quicker !!!!? ??

Kashkai

Just reading through all the posts, there's a lot of FF/PD bashing going on. But do you honestly believe that an alternative government would have done anything different? They would be equally afraid of losing the grey vote (I'm no FF/PD supporter - I hate all politicians equally:mad: ).

The heart of the matter was that the VHI were carping on that they had an older age profile amongst their members and thus they had a higher proportion of people making claims than the younger membership of BUPA. Thus they had to make higher payouts and therefore weren't as profitable as BUPA. However, BUPA wasn't turning away older people trying to take out health insurance. It was just a case that the older members of the VHI didn't feel comfortable leaving their trusty health insurer (who's been fleecing them for years) and joining the new kid on the block. Thats why BUPA's membership was generally younger as it is the younger generation in this country who won't take crap from the likes of Eircom, established Banks and the VHI and who are more likely to move their telephone/mortgage & banking/health insurance to a new competitor who will actually value their custom and will provide an efficient and courteous service.

I'm covered with BUPA until January 2008 and I'm holding out the hope that Charlie McCreevey will stick his oar in (in the guise of the EU competition laws) and might make it possible for BUPA to stay. If this fails, I'll consider joining VIVAS or going public. I'm not going back to the VHI - BTW did you see their chief exec on the telly last night "regretting" BUPA's decision to pull out. I bet he bloody is as now he won't be getting €160m over the next three years.

fatboypee

Prosperous Dave wrote:

...I bet he bloody is as now he won't be getting €160m over the next three years.

Yep, but he's still got the security that risk equalisation has brought. Worth more than the 160m to mister monopoly and his government cronies...

Kashkai

fatboypee wrote:

Yep, but he's still got the security that risk equalisation has brought. Worth more than the 160m to mister monopoly and his government cronies...

True and with the knowledge that he can have the taxpayers sheltering him from true competition, this "public service" hack can sit back and award himself a nice christmas bonus - unlike the BUPA staff who are facing an uncertain future.

I love Ireland but I hate (and I very rarely use that word) the assholes who stifle any attempt to break the monopolies who have fleeced Sean and Mary citizen since the founding of this state. They are all a truly parasitical breed who have the protection of their cronies in the Dail (solicitors/barristers. publicans, auctioneers, doctors.) Our esteemed representatives are drawn from these professions and they represent their interests in lieu of the people who voted for them. However, whats the alternative, all the parties are the same no matter what they call themselves. God help us all:eek:

ken90

BUPA knew the rules before they came into Ireland.
The biggest mistake was letting them away with it for years and letting them make extraordinary profits.

NEXT TIME A HOSPITAL BILLS YOUR HEALTH INSURER_CHECK IT.

Every time I have checked, I have found massive overcharging to the point of FRAUD. We are paying for this

MrPudding

Santa Claus wrote:

No government will ever get rid of risk equalisation, because then the older member would be charged more....

The amount older people get charged has nothing to do with risk equalisation. It is community rating that ensures we all payt he same regardless of our age.

The removal of risk equalisation will not automatically mean that older people get charged more. No one is suggesting a removal of community rating.

MrP

dahamsta

Devon wrote:

VHI aren't obliged to "take on" older sicker people if they don't want to, and if they do, their premiums should be representative of their condition, just like car insurance. The VHI bosses will be popping corks about now...

You need to read about the subject you're commenting on if you want to look like you actually understand what you're talking about.

1. VHI aren't necessarily "taking on" older people (they're not necessarily "sicker" either btw), they already have them, and those people don't want to leave VHI for one reason or another.
2. Premiums are fixed via community rating, VHI couldn't charge a premium "representative of their condition" if they wanted to. And I wonder if you'll feel the same way when you're "older [and] sicker".

On the subject in general, I'm a VHI customer, carried forward from the policy my parents set up for me as a child. I've had to use it once, thank the gods, and my claim was handled with zero input from me. Super efficient.

BUPA knew what they were getting into. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

adam

Hotblack Desiato

Prosperous Dave wrote:

I love Ireland but I hate (and I very rarely use that word) the assholes who stifle any attempt to break the monopolies who have fleeced Sean and Mary citizen since the founding of this state. They are all a truly parasitical breed who have the protection of their cronies in the Dail (solicitors/barristers. publicans, auctioneers, doctors.)

I would include BUPA in this. They didn't come in here to compete with VHI, but to create a cosy duopoly which was exceedingly profitable for BUPA.

There wasn't real competition, there was O2/Vodafone style competition as it was before Meteor got big. Similar but not identical plans, designed to make it as hard as possible for the consumer to compare directly, with a broadly similar cost.

The big difference between BUPA and a mobile phone operator is that community rating applies so everyone pays the same - but there is a huge difference in your costs depending on the make-up of your consumer base. On the news the other day it said that the cost of claims from one older consumer can eat up the profits from seven younger ones. BUPA have been creaming off most of the new health insurance consumers and much of the large corporate market in tech firms etc. with a young average age.

They've been undercutting VHI, but only very slightly, while having claim costs far less than VHI's due to their customer base. They've been laughing all the way to the bank and now that the playing pitch is being levelled they're grabbing the ball and going home.

As dahamsta said, good riddance to them, we can't maintain community rating without some sort of equalisation scheme, and BUPA do not want to be seen to publically back down on their threat.

B*tch about the VHI all you like, the real question is - if VHI is as inefficient and costly as you claim and BUPA is so wonderful and efficient as you claim, why on earth aren't BUPA's premiums FAR lower than VHI's are?

They've been profiteering and taking advantage of community rating to line their pockets. And you call this 'competition' ??

Santa Claus

I wouldn't be suprised if we see some work-around on the situation and BUPA end up staying after all...Was talking to the local FF TD when I was at the doctor this morning as his office is next door and he was saying that the TD's/Councillors from cork are kicking up murder about the job losses and something is going to have to be done!

fatboypee

ninja900 wrote:

I would include BUPA in this. They didn't come in here to compete with VHI, but to create a cosy duopoly which was exceedingly profitable for BUPA.

There wasn't real competition, there was O2/Vodafone style competition as it was before Meteor got big. Similar but not identical plans, designed to make it as hard as possible for the consumer to compare directly, with a broadly similar cost.

The big difference between BUPA and a mobile phone operator is that community rating applies so everyone pays the same - but there is a huge difference in your costs depending on the make-up of your consumer base. On the news the other day it said that the cost of claims from one older consumer can eat up the profits from seven younger ones. BUPA have been creaming off most of the new health insurance consumers and much of the large corporate market in tech firms etc. with a young average age.

They've been undercutting VHI, but only very slightly, while having claim costs far less than VHI's due to their customer base. They've been laughing all the way to the bank and now that the playing pitch is being levelled they're grabbing the ball and going home.

As dahamsta said, good riddance to them, we can't maintain community rating without some sort of equalisation scheme, and BUPA do not want to be seen to publically back down on their threat.

B*tch about the VHI all you like, the real question is - if VHI is as inefficient and costly as you claim and BUPA is so wonderful and efficient as you claim, why on earth aren't BUPA's premiums FAR lower than VHI's are?

They've been profiteering and taking advantage of community rating to line their pockets. And you call this 'competition' ??

yes, BUPA profiteering, have VHI been doing it all for free then ? How do we know the real costs ? Why do we have to know the real costs ? Why are we in such a sh1t situation as to NEED health insurance when the country is so wealthy and we're getting tax back hand over fist ?

VHI is publicly owned, you talk about level playing fields when the government legislates in favour of its own company.... would it be the same if BUPA were requesting equalisation ? Think the legislation would be passed ?

I dont...

jimmycrackcorm

fatboypee wrote:

Ask yourself one question if you disagree, if BUPA had the older demographic, would BUPA get a look-in in risk equalisation to the cost of VHI ? I think NOT !

Fatboy.

Actually yes, they would. That was the whole point of Risk Equalization, to compensate any other competitors for their share of the older subscribers. In a few years time Vivas would have to pay and that would be shared between VHI and Bupa in proportion. The whole point was for community rating and not as a sop for the VHI.

Bupa made huge profits but yet still put up their prices so as not to make it worthwhile for them to take on older customers moving from VHI. Imagine how they would react if subscribers migrated en-masse due to lower premiums - they'd claim it was unprofitable and get out.

11.3 SECONDS

VHI constantly blame "medical inflation" as the cause for their ritual annual increase.

BUPA are going. If everyone left VHI and collapsed it I wonder how quickly this so-called medical inflation would collapse also. My cynical streak makes me think that medical inflation is caused partially by the availability of a ready supply of funds from private health insurance.

The only thing keeping VHI alive is the crap state of our public health system which makes people feel the need to have private cover.

I think that I will just go and live in France. At least I wouldn't have to listen to Harney....

miju

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

What BUPA are saying now that is in realistic market conditions the business is just not profitable enough to be in.

yes , risk equalisations means they'll lose over €1 million a week , thats not a million of profit that's a 100% negative loss

so in one fell swoop fiana failure have wiped 450 jobs , a profitable company AND competition in a market in Ireland all in one go ..... if only they were that effecient in everything else

roll on the elections

Santa Claus wrote:

he was saying that the TD's/Councillors from cork are kicking up murder about the job losses and something is going to have to be done!

and if you believe that , just lip service is all that is

jimmycrackcorm

miju wrote:

yes , risk equalisations means they'll lose over €1 million a week , thats not a million of profit that's a 100% negative loss

so in one fell swoop fiana failure have wiped 450 jobs , a profitable company AND competition in a market in Ireland all in one go ..... if only they were that effecient in everything else

roll on the elections



and if you believe that , just lip service is all that is

After 10 years, Bupa are leaving with €100 million in profit. Their profit margin here is over 17% while in the UK it is 5%. They knew before market entry that risk equalization was to be implemented. But what the hell, they realized that they could still delay it for as long as possible while they made a huge quick buck.

If Bupa were really so concerned about it, why didn't they offer huge discounts to the over 50's to get them to migrate from VHI. If they got enough then the risk equalization wouldn't have applied. But of course they matched the VHI price increases closely instead.

Your criticism of the government is misplaced. They were right to impose risk equalization because, after all, we'll all be older and more susceptible to illness at some stage. But Bupa knew that risk equalization was part and parcel of the deal and they engineered their products for maximum profits for as long as they could.

MrPudding

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

After 10 years, Bupa are leaving with €100 million in profit.

So they made 100 million in profit over 10 years? Are you sure of that figure? If it correct then the risk equalisation is even more retarded than I actually thought.

Is it the case that they have to pay roughly 50% of the profit they made in 10 years to their larger competitor each year?

MrP

mike65

They are not leaving with 100 profit, they have to settle outstanding claims for a start then they have to wind-down the ops. Anyway it does'nt matter if BUPA has a swag of a euro or a billion the issue is not profit (or lack of) its the failure of government to design a system that encourages competition. VHI has to be cut loose and broken up.

Mike.

mike65

If everyone left VHI and collapsed it I wonder how quickly this so-called medical inflation would collapse also. My cynical streak makes me think that medical inflation is caused partially by the availability of a ready supply of funds from private health insurance.

The only thing keeping VHI alive is the crap state of our public health system which makes people feel the need to have private cover.

Spot on, the government will never let VHI go bust though, its the states baby after all. The funding set-up is the worst model possible, the government set the budget and then the health system finds ways of spending the cash but as the HSE a sprawling mess run by the kind of people that would never last in private enterprise significant ammounts of money is squandered.

To fix this the health system should simply do the work then write a bill which is then paid by the dept of health. The "invoices" should be subject to random audit.

In other words the money should follow the service not the other way round.

Mike.

jimmycrackcorm

mike65 wrote:

They are not leaving with 100 profit, they have to settle outstanding claims for a start then they have to wind-down the ops. Anyway it does'nt matter if BUPA has a swag of a euro or a billion the issue is not profit (or lack of) its the failure of government to design a system that encourages competition. VHI has to be cut loose and broken up.

Mike.

Given their lower customer age profile then I don't think that will make much ofa dent.

So they made 100 million in profit over 10 years? Are you sure of that figure? If it correct then the risk equalisation is even more retarded than I actually thought.

Is it the case that they have to pay roughly 50% of the profit they made in 10 years to their larger competitor each year?

Yes - it is an audited figure. Don't forget that that is the profit from a startup business not a mature business. Again I say - had Bupa created attractive policies to encourage older customers to join then they wouldn't have to worry about risk equalization. It would be naive to think that Bupa are thinking of anything other than profit otherwise knowing full well in advance of the implications of RE, they could have strategized for it in a way other than the quick buckway.