Motorway Ethics Question

impr0v

You are driving on the left lane of a motorway at 120 kph, and are approaching three articulated trucks driving closely together in the same lane as you. The trucks are close enough to effectively rule out the option of leapfrogging them, i.e. overtaking one, pulling back into the left lane, then overtaking the next, etc. The trucks appear to be driving at 100 kph.

You look in your rearview mirror as you prepare to overtake the trucks and see a driver coming up behind you in the right-hand lane. The driver is travelling significantly faster than the speed limit, as they are gaining on you at an appreciable rate. There is no impediment to you commencing your overtaking manoeuvre, in that the car is a safe distance behind you, but it's apparent that you will have only fully overtaken the first truck, and perhaps part of the second, by the time the driver closes on you and will be forced to slow to your speed until you pass the third truck.

You are now at the point at which you should commence overtaking the trucks. If you choose to wait until the car in the right hand lane overtakes you (the right hand lane is clear after their car), you will have to brake and drop your speed to that of the trucks, wait for him/her to overtake, and then build your speed up again to overtake.

What do you do?

*Edit* I should perhaps clarify that the issue isn't safety per se, you have perfectly adequate space and time to commence the manoeuvre and the driver in the right hand lane has plenty of time to see you and adjust his speed accordingly, the question is essentially about who should be inconvenienced by slowing down and building their speed again - you, driving at the legal limit, or the other driver, driving above the limit.

Hagar

Wait. Stay alive. Get home safe a couple of minutes late.

drdre

Hagar wrote:

Wait. Stay alive. Get home safe a couple of minutes late.

Yes this is the best option.

311

undertake and bury the three trucks.

dceire

Brake & let the twat by before you overtake!

While we're on the topic of motorway ethics here are two thing i hate and don’t understand why people do it:

1) Travel at a speed well below the 120kph limit in the overtaking lane when there is no reason for doing so. Pull the hell over you git!!!

2) Idiots undertaking, you are f***ing lethal!

BigCon

Hagar wrote:

Wait. Stay alive. Get home safe a couple of minutes late.

Re-read the post, this isn't about safety - he said it was perfectly safe to begin his overtaking manouvere as the approaching car was still way off his tail, just that it would have gained on him before he had overtaken the 3 lorries.

I think I would overtake the lorries so long as the approaching car would not be on my tail straight away. Also I would increase my speed slightly (I know I'm breaking the speed limit now - shoot me) so as not to be holding him up as much...

Guy:Incognito

if the guy coming behind you is going to have to use his brakes to slow down tp avoid you, i'd say wait. If he can avoid you by letting off the accelerator, pull out.

Hagar

BigCon wrote:

Re-read the post, this isn't about safety - he said it was perfectly safe to begin his overtaking manouvere as the approaching car was still way off his tail, just that it would have gained on him before he had overtaken the 3 lorries...

Oh I read the post alright, and you sir are wrong, it is always about safety. What he said was effectively "I have time to pull out in front of a speeding car but not enough time to get back in safely". This amounts to foolishness at best and at worst suicide.

Wishbone Ash

Wait

impr0v wrote:

The trucks appear to be driving at 100 kph

They would be breaking the law as a truck is not permitted to travel at more than 80kph. It is highly unlikely that three trucks, travelling in convoy, would have all three speed limiters (85kph) disconnected.

Guy:Incognito

Theres no such thing as a hypothetical question on Boards, is there?

Hagar

Edited due to broken stupidity filter...

Sandwich

I would overtake without a doubt. Variations of your situation are not so unusual, but I never delay my own progress to facilitate someone else breaking the law. Even if the string of trucks or whatever in the left lane was long, and they were doing 110 and I 120, too bad for the guy behind. Am happy to at least temporarily have him drive legally.

As discussed elsewhere here before, can happen a lot on the M50 these days where you can be doing 60, overtaking cars in the left lane, but driving the speeder behind you who wants to do 100 nuts.

Rudolph Claus

2) Idiots undertaking, you are f***ing lethal!

Only leathal if the person being undertaken is not aware of whats arund/behind them by using their rearview mirror now and then and the side mirror aswell. In which case, the dope being undertaken is Lethal.

If you find yourself getting undertaken rather a lot, i suggest you try using the left lane more often. I travel a particular stretch of motorway daily and never experience being undertaken.

Sandwich

Wishbone Ash wrote:

Wait



They would be breaking the law as a truck is not permitted to travel at more than 80kph. It is highly unlikely that three trucks, travelling in convoy, would have all three speed limiters (85kph) disconnected.

Wow. I knew they had a lower limit but guessed it must be 100. Not sure that I've ever seen one go as slow as 80! Guess they must indeed all have their limiters disconnected.

Stark

A variation of the second one in that I wouldn't drive all the way up to the trucks and brake as soon as I get to them, I'd start letting my foot off the gas as soon as I see the trucks and the car in my mirror. That way I don't have to waste petrol or cause cars behind me to brake.

Seth Brundle

Stekelly wrote:

if the guy coming behind you is going to have to use his brakes to slow down tp avoid you, i'd say wait. If he can avoid you by letting off the accelerator, pull out.

Id either do this or increase my speed (assuming it was safe to do so).
Everyone I know who has an IAM or RoSPA would also agree on getting out of the overtaking manouver asap safely. If the need to hit 130 or 140km/h then so be it.

Hagar wrote:

Oh I read the post alright, and you sir are wrong, it is always about safety. What he said was effectively "I have time to pull out in front of a speeding car but not enough time to get back in safely". This amounts to foolishness at best and at worst suicide.

To overtake three trucks doing 100km/h would take a fair bit of road. If this scenario arose and the car approaching did not slow down then they are not going to slow for anyone! If the car behind cannot let off their throttle a bit then they shouldn't be on the road!

Hagar

But why pull out in front of him?
It would be a different matter if you had already commenced the manoeuvre and were committed. In this scenario you are still safely behind the trucks and haven't yet pulled out. Pulling out to force a speeding driver to slow down is lunacy.

Seth Brundle

My interpretation is that to overtake the trucks would involve about 1km. For the other car to catch up with you by the time you reach this point means that he is quite far back.

Gary ITR

Wait for him to go, it's going to cost no time at all. It's not like I would have to wait for him to overtake the trucks, I could slip in straight behind him and be on my way, without having him up my ass or breaking any speed limits

crosstownk

Brake and wait. That way nobody gets a 'fright'. It's by far the safest option, irrespective of the 'speeding' drivers visibility and reaction time.

Kojak

I'd stay behind the trucks - you have already said that you're travelling at the legal limit, if you go any faster you are breaking the law.

Also even if you said that its safe etc. how do you know that there isn't an obstruction (i.e. oil spillage, gravel on the road) ahead which, at 120kph, would probably cause an accident. I'd take the safer option.

BrianD3

I would wait. But I'd try not to get myself into the situation of needing to brake. A gentle lift off the throttle well in advance of reaching the trucks may slow you down enough for you to smoothly tuck in behind the guy in the overtaking lane. The idea is to time it so you don't have to slow down too much.

Also I think that mixed signals and misplaced courtesy can occur in situations like this. Eg you are in the driving lane and see slow trucks ahead. There is another driver a distance behind in the overtaking lane travelling faster than you. You start slowing down with the aim of tucking in behind him so you can overtake the trucks. He sees whats happening and slows down to "let you out", thinks he's being nice but in fact this messes up your timing and both of ye get frustrated.

edit: even without misplaced courtesy sometimes things don't run smoothly. Lets say you judge that you have enough time to pass the trucks without impeding anyone. But after you've started overtaking the trucks speed up because of a downhill gradient. Or the guy in the overtaking lane speeds up for some reason (gradient, inattention, aggressiveness or whatever) Also IMO it's up to everyone to drive "reasonably". Driving at 140 km/h in the right conditions on an Irish M-way is proabably reasonable enough even if it is breaking the limit. OTOH driving at 400 km/h in your Bugatti Veyron and expecting all other road users for miles ahead to leave the overtaking lane free in case you come along would be completely unreasonable.

littlejukka

the number of saps selecting the seoncd option is a bit worrying. the road is yours to control unless you'd cause the car behind you to slow down or change direction in a hurry. if he wants to do 140 or 150, that's fine, but you have every right to do your thing at 120 and leave him worry about himself. if he flashes the lights as he approaches your bumper, a liberal dose of the middle finger will ease the situation.

dceire

Nuttzy wrote:

Only leathal if the person being undertaken is not aware of whats arund/behind them by using their rearview mirror now and then and the side mirror aswell. In which case, the dope being undertaken is Lethal.

If you find yourself getting undertaken rather a lot, i suggest you try using the left lane more often. I travel a particular stretch of motorway daily and never experience being undertaken.

True enough about the lack of awareness on the person being undertaking’s part, but it still doesn’t change the fact of the illegalness of the manoeuvre.
Its can also be difficult to judge the inside lane when visibility is poor especially during heavy rain.

I haven’t experienced much in the way of undertaking myself but see it quite often, I’m on the m4 from monday to friday. It mostly happens during scenario no 1 which i mentioned & can see why someone might do it but can’t condone it!

littlejukka

i've only been undertaken when i'm waiting behind somebody (or lots of people) in the overtaking lane. it's funny when you beep the horn and people look over all startled because they don't understand that their doing anything wrong. the ignorance of the rules of the road on this country on a mass scale is startling,

C_Breeze

Drop a gear and put the foot down ....

unless you drive an anemic, gutless car - then break and do wat u do best - crawl along neatly to the left please.



edit to put it in a nice manner:

If your car has the grunt, then put you foot down and accelerate to overtake the 3 trucks without causing speedy gonzales to brake, even if it means breaking the speed limit - after you have overtaken the trucks , pull back into the left lane and resume at the speed limit and let Mr. S. Gonzales fly by.

If your car hasnt got the oomph and speedy is flying along, the you should (and I would too) brake, slow down to let him by and then prepare for your earthshattering overtake maneouvre while he/she is off in the distance.

unkel

Agree with several posters but agree most with:

BrianD3 wrote:

I would wait. But I'd try not to get myself into the situation of needing to brake

Yes, it's all about continuously monitoring speed and distance of other road users. That prevents you from "finding" yourself in a situation. I voted for the second option but depending on the situation could have speeded up and overtaken all three trucks before the fast car even got near me. This last option is less likely in the case the trucks are driving at 100km/h but more likely in the case they are driving at 80km/h

Savman

littlejukka wrote:

the number of saps selecting the seoncd option is a bit worrying. the road is yours to control unless you'd cause the car behind you to slow down or change direction in a hurry. if he wants to do 140 or 150, that's fine, but you have every right to do your thing at 120 and leave him worry about himself. if he flashes the lights as he approaches your bumper, a liberal dose of the middle finger will ease the situation.

We're saps why exactly? The road is not yours to control, the vehicle is. If in doubt, you go with the safest option always. In this exact situation, the safest option is to let SPeedy Gonzalez pass you by.

If you pull out and impede the oncoming vehicle to the point they have to slow down, I'm afraid the only sap is the one you see when you look in the mirror. Unless of course you're an undercover traffic cop and it's your job to enforce the ROTR or perhaps you like the idea of being rear-ended @ 140km/hr :rolleyes:

Wait = Live.

cast_iron

I don't really see the big safety issue here. The car coming from behind is a reasonable distance back to allow you to pull out (fully legally) and overtake the trucks at the legal limit.

Yes, the guy behind will have to brake, but I fail to see how this is a big safety problem

John R

cast_iron wrote:

I don't really see the big safety issue here. The car coming from behind is a reasonable distance back to allow you to pull out (fully legally) and overtake the trucks at the legal limit.

Yes, the guy behind will have to brake, but I fail to see how this is a big safety problem

It isn't. As long as there is plenty of time for the approaching car to reduce his speed.

As a previous poster said; if he has to brake to match your speed then stay in the left lane, if there is enough distance for him to comfortably match speed by easing off the accelerator then it is acceptable.

Driving a coach, overtaking slower vehicles (usually trucks) while slowing down faster traffic is a regularly unavoidable scenario. Even though some motorists may not like it, as far as I am concerned it is really not a big deal as long as the following cars are given plenty of time to slow down. If there is a slow convoy on a busy road it is often impossible to get a gap large enough to avoid slowing some cars.

TBH in a decent car I would just accelerate to get past the trucks quicker and then return to cruising speed but it is understandable why many people these days do not want to exceed the limit even for a few seconds. The chance of getting done for overtaking at 130-140kph on a motorway is far higher than for driving at dangerously high speeds on city streets or country lanes.

Wishbone Ash

John R wrote:

Driving a coach, overtaking slower vehicles (usually trucks) while slowing down faster traffic is a regularly unavoidable scenario. Even though some motorists may not like it

If on a motorway, other motorists may not like it as it's illegal now.

Drax

cast_iron wrote:

I don't really see the big safety issue here. The car coming from behind is a reasonable distance back to allow you to pull out (fully legally) and overtake the trucks at the legal limit.

Yes, the guy behind will have to brake, but I fail to see how this is a big safety problem

I agree. I dont see a problem with the approaching driver having to brake, assuming of course you have given him sufficient notice by indicating. I would proceed with an overtake. Anyone driven on the continent? I would say the majority of drivers would perform the overtake. I have seen it numerous times where a car will move into the overtaking lane and then an approaching car brakes. The thing is though that drivers are accepting of this. Here, people would start flashing lights, beeping horns etc coz you 'invaded their space'.

Hagar

I drive on the continent and would perform the overtake here but not in Ireland. For two reasons, firstly there will be at least one more lane for the approaching driver to move into and pass me while I'm passing the trucks and secondly the chances of him being a un-qualified provisional driver who shouldn't even be on a motorway are slim, unlike Ireland.

Biro

If he was approaching at a significant speed above yours and there is no one behind him, then just ease back to 100k and let him by, then follow with your overtake. If there are plenty of cars behind him again and it'll mean that you'll be stuck in the left lane till the motorway ends, then provided he isn't close enough to have to brake, then go for it. You can't get annoyed at being behind someone who's doing the speed limit. It's frustrating to be behind someone who does about 8 or 10k below the limit and thinks that your place is behind them.
Doing an indicated 130kph to get by wouldn't be the end of the world either (provided it is safe to do so)... your speedo may be out by 10% anyway, and they almost always over read.

Seth Brundle

Kojak wrote:

you have already said that you're travelling at the legal limit, if you go any faster you are breaking the law.

OMG! :eek:

Kojak wrote:

Also even if you said that its safe etc. how do you know that there isn't an obstruction (i.e. oil spillage, gravel on the road) ahead which, at 120kph, would probably cause an accident. I'd take the safer option.

Meeting an oil spill @ 120km/h will have pretty much the same effect as hitting it at 130 or 140km/h!

cast_iron wrote:

I don't really see the big safety issue here. The car coming from behind is a reasonable distance back to allow you to pull out (fully legally) and overtake the trucks at the legal limit.

Yes, the guy behind will have to brake, but I fail to see how this is a big safety problem

As you say the car is a reasonable distance back (approx 1km). If he needs to brake then he is going waaaayyyy over the speed limit.

Johnny Storm

Floor it, obviously. Otherwise there may be a potentially damaging build-up of carbon deposits in your engine.

BrianD3

cast_iron wrote:

I don't really see the big safety issue here. The car coming from behind is a reasonable distance back to allow you to pull out (fully legally) and overtake the trucks at the legal limit.

Yes, the guy behind will have to brake, but I fail to see how this is a big safety problem

Drax wrote:

I agree. I dont see a problem with the approaching driver having to brake, assuming of course you have given him sufficient notice by indicating.

It mightn't be a big safety issue however it is extremely bad manners to cause vehicles who have priority to brake. Vehicles in the overtaking lane have priority over those wishing to enter the overtaking lane. Do you also think it's OK to merge onto a motorway and cause drivers already on the M-way to brake. Or pull out of a side road onto a main road and cause drivers to brake. Because it's the same principle.

TBH I can't stand driver who pull out in front of vehicles with priority with the attitude of "ah sure can't he brake".

Pherekydes

You are travelling at x KPH. Up ahead a car is overtaking some slower moving traffic. You are travelling faster than he is. You catch up with him before he finishes his overtaking manouvre. What do you do:

1. Slow to his speed until he finishes his manouvre
2. Start flashing him from a long way off, so he aborts his manouvre or speeds up
3. Keep going at the same speed, ramming him off the road

Come on people, get real. If the guy is a reasonable distance behind then you are already executing your overtaking manouvre, unless you like to dive out from behind the trucks at the last second.

Seth Brundle

BrianD3 wrote:

TBH I can't stand driver who pull out in front of vehicles with priority with the attitude of "ah sure can't he brake".

Im the same but in this situation the approaching car is so far behind that he will only be behind you by the time you are at the end of the overtaking manouvre. All he needs to do is lighten up a small bit on the throttle and he will be fine.
He has absolutely no need to brake!


edit: after re-reading the OP I see that you are only 1/2 way through the manouvre. I was unser the impression that you were at the end of the manouvre when the approaching car arrived on your tail!

Gurgle

I voted overtake, but I'd put a tenner on the twat speeding up to tailgate you and start flashing his lights at you.

There are a couple of ethically correct* responses to this:

1) Take your foot off the accelerator, match speeds with the truck and make
it impossible for him to undertake you. This should be accompanied by showing him the birdie. Stay there until you can see him going purple in the face with rage.

2) Stick to your manoever, overtaking as you would if he wasn't there but touch the brake pedal ever so gently with your left foot - just enough to put the brake lights on and scare the shit out of the gob****e tailgating you.

* I said ethically correct, not safe

BrianD3

Slow coach wrote:

You are travelling at x KPH. Up ahead a car is overtaking some slower moving traffic. You are travelling faster than he is. You catch up with him before he finishes his overtaking manouvre. What do you do:

The question posed by the OP seems slightly different. The question is - if you are in the driving lane and can see someone coming up behind in the overtaking lane is it acceptable to then pull out into the overtaking lane KNOWING that you'll cause them to brake before you can get back into the driving lane.

Both cars already in the same lane before they become aware of each other's presence = different scenario.

It should also be said that many drivers have crap observation and are crap at judging speed and distance. Often when drivers pull out in front of other vehicles and impede them this is the main problem. Cars "appear out of nowhere" and so on. :rolleyes:

Seth Brundle

Gurgle wrote:

2) Stick to your manoever, overtaking as you would if he wasn't there but touch the brake pedal ever so gently with your left foot - just enough to put the brake lights on and scare the **** out of the gob****e tailgating you.

There was nevere any suggestion that the driver would tailgate you.

MercMad

They only thing to think about here is one's safety !

The simple fact is that you DO have to consider the guy behind, he could be one of the county's fifty million "L" plate drivers, in the parents 911, for the first time with his foot to the floor whilst smoking dope and getting a BJ !

You simply cannot assume he will A. See you at all, B. Decide to slow down in time or C. Be physically able to slow down !

There are plenty of folk who will decide to drive up your a55 to teach you a lesson for invading their lane, what happens if he/she misjudges all of that ??

What happens if he/she is in a BMW with a stuck open throttle and no brakes !

IMO it is foolish to do anything but let the idiot pass.

Two potentially dangerous situations have also not been taken into account here either,
1.what happens if one of the trucks decide to pull out, causing you to now brake in the fast lane instead of accelerating therefore leaving speedy gonzales even less time and space to react ??
2. ...........anything velse happens .....leaving you like a sitting duck in the path of a high speed vehicle............instead of staying safely in the slow lane !

There is way to much bravado being displayed here, as though this is a test of one's strenght and honour. IMO it is this attitude that causes the most accidents on our roads.

Hang back, its the safest and the most sensible thing to do, and your family will thank you for it when you are still around to eat Christmas Dinner !

Stark

MercMad wrote:

The simple fact is that you DO have to consider the guy behind, he could be one of the county's fifty million "L" plate drivers, in the parents 911, for the first time with his foot to the floor whilst smoking dope and getting a BJ !

But if you don't overtake then as he's passing you, he'll oversteer and careen into you, blowing you off the road :eek: :eek: :eek: Jesus Christ, I think I'll avoid heading home this Christmas.

Gurgle

kbannon wrote:

There was nevere any suggestion that the driver would tailgate you.

Its a long standing tradition in Irish motoring.

If someone pulls out in front of you and doesn't accelerate instantly to the speed you're doing (irrespective of speed limits), you floor it until you're 8 inches behind his bumper and start flashing your lights.

Given the standard of driving in this country, the obviously correct (i.e. safe) answer is to stay behind the trucks until the other guy has gone past. He may not be a total gob****e, but the odds are he is.

unkel

BrianD3 wrote:

it is extremely bad manners to cause vehicles who have priority to brake

As the OP mentioned ethics in the thread title, I think that sums it up nicely. The decision to slow down or overtake should be primarily based on that assessment

LOL @MercMad, but

MercMad wrote:

What happens if he/she is in a BMW with a stuck open throttle and no brakes !

It was proven in court that that's not possible in a BMW

Gurgle wrote:

There are a couple of ethically correct* responses to this:

1) Take your foot off the accelerator, match speeds with the truck and make
it impossible for him to undertake you. This should be accompanied by showing him the birdie. Stay there until you can see him going purple in the face with rage.

2) Stick to your manoever, overtaking as you would if he wasn't there but touch the brake pedal ever so gently with your left foot - just enough to put the brake lights on and scare the shit out of the gob****e tailgating you.[/SIZE]

Sighs :rolleyes:

What if the overtaking driver is a doctor on the way to an emergency?

MercMad

Quote:
Originally Posted by MercMad
What happens if he/she is in a BMW with a stuck open throttle and no brakes !


It was proven in court that that's not possible in a BMW

..........are you telling me that in the aforementioned scenario, whilst you had one leg over the centre console, the other leg somewhere that you didn't care, with your mind being blown from all sides..........that your car would be able to slow down and brake by itself.............because you definitely couldn't do it for a few more seconds !!

Actually ..........make that another few seconds...............

Actually........



( get the point ! )

Seth Brundle

words of experience there Mercmad?

Savman

MercMad wrote:

There is way to much bravado being displayed here, as though this is a test of one's strenght and honour. IMO it is this attitude that causes the most accidents on our roads.

Glad someone else said it.

Biro

This is beginning to go around in circles... So really, when all the possibilities are considered, the best thing to do is to eliminate all potential risks from behind, which leaves the oil slick option above. Best implimentation of that is to pass the 3rd truck, oil-slick yer man, then oil slick the 3rd truck which will jack-knife, and therefore take out yer man if he has regained control, then you won't have any worries of whats behind you to negotiate the next 2 trucks.

Henry Ford III

I think I'd back off and wait until the other car passed.

It'd only take a few seconds.