Catholics where are you?

Tim Robbins

How come so few Catholics post on this forum?
Is it because they do not feel the need to argue or tell everyone about their faith?
Let's discuss...

Nevyn

How do you know that there are so few catholics ?
Do you expect people to qualify thier posts with " I'm a catholic and.."

I find that there are few who profess to be catholics that have taken the time to investigate and research thier faith; that could be it.

Victor

Tim Robbins wrote:

How come so few Catholics post on this forum?

Perhaps, within Ireland, as Roman Catholics are a majority, they feel less need to be vocal, whereas other demoninations feel the need to make themselves heard.

Also, I think the other demoninations have a greater tradition of lay participation, preaching and missionary work.

panda100

Im a catholic down on paper (I.e in the census,birth cert etc) but I wouldnt actually consider myself a catholic.I consider myself a spiritual Christian becuase I believe in Jesus but just disgaree with too many of the cathoic teachings.

Tim Robbins

Thaedydal wrote:

How do you know that there are so few catholics ?
Do you expect people to qualify thier posts with " I'm a catholic and.."

I read this forum regulary and observe that most Christians who post on are Protestant as they slip it out occasionally.

Victor wrote:

Also, I think the other demoninations have a greater tradition of lay participation, preaching and missionary work

My understanding is the Catholics also do a lot of missionary work.

BTW, my own theory is that Catholics just seem to be into spiritual side, praying, observing Catholic traditions, Ash Wednesday and Mass etc. Protestants seem to be more into arguing how well they know the Roman edited literature and C.S. Lewis books and that nobody understands Christianity as well as them (at least the ones on this forum, probably not true for all Protestants, I don't know enough to say).

My only other theory, is because Protestants are in the minority in this state, they experience a siege mentality and feel they need to express their identiy more.

There has to be some reason why if the majority of Irish Christians are Catholics but yet they are minority Christians on this forum.

These are just my opinions, I am more than likely wrong, but still curious.

Your thoughts...

Excelsior

I used to co-moderate this forum with a Catholic. He is neither involved and I only pop in here while the kettle is boiling for a cup of tea because of the antagonistic nature of debate. So maybe Catholics are more sensible than Protestants.


(I was reared Catholic, have studied theology under Catholics and would still consider myself Catholic, in the universal sense, working for the Presbyterian Church (which is not Protestant by the way but Dissenting- we don't want to break with Roman Catholicism, we instead foresee a day when we reunite in harmony!))

Archeron

My name is Archeron, and I'm a Catholic.

To be honest, I dont post in this forum because although I am a Catholic, I am not overly knowledgable on the gritty details of my faith. I am comfortable (for the most part) with those parts I understand and can use in my daily life, but I dont really feel intelligent enough to raise questions or conversations in this forum, as most would probably lead to my showing my lack of intelligence in relation to the subject matter. Although I am studying the bible, I still find a lot of it hard to understand the relevance of some passages to modern life.

Aside from this, even though I am sure that this particular forum is a sanctuary, the sheer amount of vitriolic critcism of anyone who pertains to seemingly any aspect of a christian faith on this site generally would make me very uncomfortable discussing my deep held beliefs in front of such a potentially hostile audience. Perhaps that makes me a coward, but meh, tis only the internet, and I can always discuss my spiritual beliefs with people who I know wont pick apart every aspect of what I say.

To be honest, a lot of threads (see AH at the moment for some examples) on boards do make me shudder, but I always either shut up and say nothing, or post a damning response and then delete it before posting. Arent I brave!!!

Puck

It is a great regret of mine that so many Christians avoid participating here because of the constant attacks. I'm sorry guys. I would like this forum to be a place where Christians can discuss their faith and where honest seekers can come to ask questions and feel welcome. However keeping the board open for that also leaves it open to those who seem to get great pleasure from attacking people who believe in things that they don't.

I've often thought of re-writing the charter but I don't know. I feel my hands are tied sometimes.

All I can say to you Archeron is that you are doing a wonderful thing by just studying the Bible and there are some questions that it poses which I believe will not be answered in this lifetime.

As for the Catholics, I believe we have a few active posters but I'd like to see more.

CathyMoran

I admit to being a liberal practicing Catholic but I have also been slagged on Boards for saying that. I can relate to what Archeron has said. The thing is that I am open to finding out about other religions, I am from a mixed religous background myself and have friends from different religious backgrounds as well as different sexual persuasions. There is a lot of ignorance about modern Catholics in the media.

Archeron

Well I for one would like to see (nay, even partake!!) in conversation in this forum, so I must make a point of popping in here more often.

I am having some difficulty why so many people do seem to think its open season on Christians in recent times. I kind of feel that since its no longer PC to make any reference to the faith of our Muslim friends, that people need to vent their religious hatred somewhere, and with recent church transgressions coming to light in modern media, I suppose it may be natural that it be aimed towards those who still believe in the basics of the "offending" faith.

Like you Cathy, I have an active interest in all other religions, and I do honestly believe that they can each give us wisdom that we can interpret and use in our own ways to benefit the lives of those around us. But, my basic faith is Catholicism, and I am happy and proud of that. I would love to see a resurge in interest in the teachings of our faith, as I think that society is seriously the worse for wear with the lack of it.

Schuhart

Schuhart. Atheist with a soft spot for liberal Catholics. Particular admiration for Teilhard de Chardin. Has been seen reading ‘The Tablet’ in public.

Archeron wrote:

To be honest, a lot of threads (see AH at the moment for some examples) on boards do make me shudder, but I always either shut up and say nothing, or post a damning response and then delete it before posting.

Can I say in passing that the honesty of your post impressed me, and in particular the Christian humility in how you describe your faith.

There was an interesting exchange of letters in the Irish Times recently, sparked in reaction to a priest doing a sort of ‘death of the Church’ piece about their being so few new ordinations that an ever declining number of clergy find themselves rushed off their feet. A number of other priests wrote with a different perspective, and without that sense of despair. They seemed to feel the Church was just altering, with laity playing a more active role in doing what was previous the preserve of priests. They took hope from things like more lay people training in theology, for example.

There is a lot of negativity about Catholicism and that may be a factor in why its absent from discussion. In ways, Irish Catholicism does look like a bomb hit it and I’m not sure it’s quite found its feet yet. Ultimately, I think that does come down to people sticking their head over the parapet. In fairness, the early Christians had to put up with more that being flamed on a discussion board.

Archeron wrote:

I kind of feel that since its no longer PC to make any reference to the faith of our Muslim friends

I think the sensitivity about Islam partly relates to (correctly) not wanting to demonise a whole community because of the politics of a few nutters. But that concern should relate to politics and not the actual doctrine of the faith. Personally, having spent an amount of the last year reading up on Islam as a faith, I think liberal Catholicism looks like quite a reasonable belief system by comparison and more engaged with where life is at.

Asiaprod

Puck wrote:

It is a great regret of mine that so many Christians avoid participating here because of the constant attacks. I'm sorry guys. I would like this forum to be a place where Christians can discuss their faith and where honest seekers can come to ask questions and feel welcome. However keeping the board open for that also leaves it open to those who seem to get great pleasure from attacking people who believe in things that they don't.

But surly as a mod here it is also up to you to make this forum the kind of place you want it to be. Since I was not a founding member of this forum, I leave the running of it to you and Brian and support from the rear. I have on many occasions intervened to put things right. I would like to see you both revamp this forum. To be honest, there are times when I even get confuse as to which forum I am actually in, the Atheist/Agnostic or the Christianity forum. I for one would dearly like to see more Christians on here, and will do my best to support this.

I've often thought of re-writing the charter but I don't know. I feel my hands are tied sometimes.

How are your hands tied? Go ahead and re-write the Charter with Brian to better suit the contents you wish to see here.

Nevyn

I would suggest consulting the christians and catholics that do post here as part of reshaping the charter.

Asiaprod

Thaedydal wrote:

I would suggest consulting the christians and catholics that do post here as part of reshaping the charter.

Thanks Thaedydal, great idea.

Scofflaw

It's certainly true that a lot of us atheists do frequent the Christianity forum, and that our posts can prevent, or entangle, a straightforward discussion between Christians. We are, also, an argumentative lot.

As to why we're here, rather than the Muslim forum - most atheists around here would be ex-Christians, rather than ex-Muslims, or ex-Buddhists, or ex-Pagans. Even more relevantly, we spend our lives in a Christian milieu, so Christianity is the religion with which we are most familiar. In some cases, we operate exactly as we would have done if we were still of our original religion. I don't think I have attacked Catholicism anywhere, but I will go anywhere the fundamentalists are - just as I would if I were still a Catholic.

I don't hold any brief for, or sympathise with, those posters who only wish to rubbish Christianity. Many of these are one or two post wonders, often crudely expressed, and then gone. A lot of these aren't actually atheists - they are just teenagers, or trolls.

If one was to limit the forum to Christians only, then one is shutting off a lot of inter-faith discussion. If that were to be the case, I for one would like to see the Creationism thread moved to a new "inter-faith" forum, since it is largely a Christian-Atheist discussion. Aside from anything else, it has sufficient bulk to render a new forum instantly 'respectable'.

I would, however, be sorry to see such a thing. If Christians wish to restrict a discussion to Christians only, I think I have generally respected their wish, or only commented where I feel I have something to add to the discussion without promoting an atheist point of view. There are, of course, some posters who consider every post by an atheist to be necessarily atheistic, and for it to be impossible for an atheist to hold any worthwhile opinion or knowledge on doctrine or Scripture.

Even an inter-faith forum would not give us the opportunity for dialogue currently represented by the freedom to post in other fora. I appreciate our side of the dialogue is not always welcome, and would be perfectly happy to respect that, when that is made clear (discussion thread flag, since one may skip past the OP).

It is also the case that the forum charter already stipulates that posters should not overtly attack Christianity (point 3). If that stipulation is strengthened, it will require far more active moderation, and it still will not prevent the trolling/flaming posts.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Asiaprod

Scofflaw wrote:

If one was to limit the forum to Christians only, then one is shutting off a lot of inter-faith discussion. If that were to be the case, I for one would like to see the Creationism thread moved to a new "inter-faith" forum, since it is largely a Christian-Atheist discussion. Aside from anything else, it has sufficient bulk to render a new forum instantly 'respectable'.

I for one would not like to see this forum limited to Christians only. I believe there is/can be a lot a valid debate. I would also have to say that there has indeed been some very vitriolic posts which we do not need. Maybe the forum mods here would like to start a new post seeking ideas on how to put this forum back on track. I am undecided on what is the best thing to recommend doing with the Creationism thread. I do enjoy it, and have learned some interesting things, scavenging Lions and long shelf-life carrion aside.

Archeron

Asiaprod wrote:

I for one would not like to see this forum limited to Christians only. I believe there is/can be a lot a valid debate. I would also have to say that there has indeed been some very vitriolic posts which we do not need. Maybe the forum mods here would like to start a new post seeking ideas on how to put this forum back on track. I am undecided on what is the best thing to recommend doing with the Creationism thread. I do enjoy it, and have learned some interesting things, scavenging Lions and long shelf-life carrion aside.

I agree 100%. I have enjoyed reading threads in the Buddhism forum as well, and on occasion have taken part, so I would hate to see any of these spiritual forums be restricted to members of that specific faith. I think proper dialogue between peoples of different faiths can give us different perspectives on how we interpret what we believe, and I think that that is vital to make our faith more universal, and more welcoming to those who may not understand it as well as they would like to.

Perhaps my comments about the scathing criticisms may be influenced by the amount of time I spend in AH where I see comments making reference to such things as "God, our imaginary friend" and how "Christian festivals are shoved down peoples throats and they are sick of it and we stole it from the pagans anyway". Should people of any other faith choose to hold festivals to celebrate their beliefs, I would be the first to show as much support as possible. If Atheists (just picking Atheism at random here) want to have a week long parade celebrating their atheism, I'll be happy to cheer them on, heck I'll even bring rice crispie cakes. So long as I remain free to publicly celebrate my faith in the way the people have for so long, without fear of people thinking I'm some sort of gullible idiot.

I suppose with Christmas being here now, many people may blame the religious aspect of this celebration for the pressures they are feeling to buy gifts, go to social functions, beat the neighbours by having more glow in the dark plastic reindeer, etc. I think what people dont seem to realise is that its entirely up to them whether or not they take part in the material aspect of Christmas, or whether they use it as a time to think about their faith and spend time with their family and friends while celebrating the day for what it is and what is represents.

Dades

I've never been wholly comfortable posting in the Christianity forum, which is why I requested the setting up of the A/A forum some time ago. Of course as an ex-catholic with 12 years of Holy Ghost school education I read the threads on this forum and on occasion can't resist jumping in.

As someone mentioned most of the non-believers here are ex-Christians who have educated views, but perhaps poke their noses into too many threads.

It would be a travesty to turn this into the "Christian" forum, such as the Islam forum where you are not allowed ask questions that are seen as forcing a Muslim to "defend their faith".

I prefer the idea of a "flag" for Christian responses only. (Although I can see this being abused by a small number of devout regulars here who might use it to taunt their old enemies ).

mountainyman

The fact is that alot of the discussion is irrelevant to Christianity as most people practise it; you get 'debates' between Atheists and Creationists which are simply tedious.

You get questions about the Old Testament and the perfectiopn of scripture (irrelevant again).

Effectively you have an adolescent discussion between a group of reductivist atheists (some of whom seem to have Asbergers syndrome and to be incapable of any intellectual fluidity) and a couple of barking mad South African literalist Christians.

So real questions about living your faith get drowned out. On the other hand Christians have a duty to witness; but pointless discussion with people who believe that rule of the demos- democracy are just pointless indeed there is no point arguing with such people at all.

MM

Nevyn

One aspect of the spirituality forum was to allow for interfaith discussion and for
the types of debate that would be not allowed by the charters of the other forums.

It still has to be respectful but I would like to see it used more for discussion and debate on where beliefs intersect.

Scofflaw

Thaedydal wrote:

One aspect of the spirituality forum was to allow for interfaith discussion and for
the types of debate that would be not allowed by the charters of the other forums.

It still has to be respectful but I would like to see it used more for discussion and debate on where beliefs intersect.

Unfortunately, it carries the implication that all religion is reducible to the notion of 'spirituality', which many people would not accept. "Inter-faith" might have been a better term.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Nevyn

That wasn't the point of the forum it was for inter faith intersection and it was for those who's beliefs include things which are not accounted for in main stream faiths/religions ie someone who says they are christain but believes in reincarnation.

I would not say at religion can or should be reduced to spirituality but a persons spirituality is expressed via thier religion.

robindch

> Catholics where are you? How come so few Catholics post on this forum?

As far as I can make out, there are two main reasons for the preponderance of protestants -- firstly, in my experience, a lot of catholics don't like talking about their religious beliefs very much. Mostly, I believe, because as catholics in this country, they'll have received their religious beliefs as children and are simply unfamiliar with discussing it publicly as adults. Secondly, I suspect that most, if not all, of the protestants here have acquired their religious beliefs later in life, usually in late-teens or early adulthood, and are therefore more comfortable discussing religious topics in a more mature context.

There's far more to it than that, especially from a sociological point of view, but they're two basic human reasons as they seem to me.

Tim Robbins

robindch wrote:

> Catholics where are you? How come so few Catholics post on this forum?

There's far more to it than that, especially from a sociological point of view, but they're two basic human reasons as they seem to me.

What do you think are the sociological points then?

Scofflaw

Thaedydal wrote:

That wasn't the point of the forum it was for inter faith intersection and it was for those who's beliefs include things which are not accounted for in main stream faiths/religions ie someone who says they are christain but believes in reincarnation.

I would not say at religion can or should be reduced to spirituality but a persons spirituality is expressed via thier religion.

I don't mean to suggest that you would! I only meant the word "spirituality" carried that implication, along with the rather negative connotation of a sort of fuzzy generic New-Age-ness.

"Inter-faith", on the other hand, has rather combative overtones.

apologetically,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

robindch wrote:

> Catholics where are you? How come so few Catholics post on this forum?

As far as I can make out, there are two main reasons for the preponderance of protestants -- firstly, in my experience, a lot of catholics don't like talking about their religious beliefs very much. Mostly, I believe, because as catholics in this country, they'll have received their religious beliefs as children and are simply unfamiliar with discussing it publicly as adults. Secondly, I suspect that most, if not all, of the protestants here have acquired their religious beliefs later in life, usually in late-teens or early adulthood, and are therefore more comfortable discussing religious topics in a more mature context.

That's why so many threads turn into running battles between atheists and protestants (evangelists/born-agains) - the same "adult conversion" applies in both cases.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Schuhart

The Atheist wrote:

It would be a travesty to turn this into the "Christian" forum, such as the Islam forum where you are not allowed ask questions that are seen as forcing a Muslim to "defend their faith".

In fairness, changing the editorial line won’t stop discussion. It will drive it elsewhere, just as the Islam Forum’s lost traffic is Humanities gain.

Setting aside the Creationist thread, which is sort of an institution in its own right, is the issue really just one of basic courtesy? Maybe there is a need to change the Charter, but it probably be more effective if the godless among us just listen to what’s being said and do some breathing exercises before pressing ‘Post Reply’.

If there’s no discernable change over the coming days, then I don’t think, in fairness, we can complain if a more vigorous policy is implemented. There’s been a very tolerant policy in operation. That does deserve some respect and restraint.

robindch

> What do you think are the sociological points then?

Quite a few of the protestants here seem to have an active interest in propagating their religion and taking part in discussions in this forum is one of the ways which they believe that they can do this. And this, I believe, is because within the protestant religious context, propagation (aka, "the great commission") is a much more important religious activity than it is in catholic circles, where it's traditionally been understood to be the responsibility of the institutional church, rather than individual members.

More basically, in marketing terminology, modern protestantism has evolved to propagate -- extremely effectively it has to be said -- using viral marketing. And this person-to-person mode (a bit like a financial pyramid scheme) works much more rapidly than centralized institutional propagation, relying principally on state support and propagation through children and military and cultural subjugation which takes ages to produce results. And since viral marketing is effective in this way, this mode of propagation spreads itself, as well as it's payload, at the expense of non-viral modes. In memetic terminology, modern protestant memes are transmitted rapidly horizontally as compared to catholicism's much slower vertical transmission. Hence, I believe, more protestants on boards.ie than catholics.

Make sense?

panda100

Archeron wrote:

My name is Archeron, and I'm a Catholic.

To be honest, I dont post in this forum because although I am a Catholic, I am not overly knowledgable on the gritty details of my faith. I am comfortable (for the most part) with those parts I understand and can use in my daily life, but I dont really feel intelligent enough to raise questions or conversations in this forum, as most would probably lead to my showing my lack of intelligence in relation to the subject matter. Although I am studying the bible, I still find a lot of it hard to understand the relevance of some passages to modern life.

I agree with this also.Many of the threads turn into two people disagreeing with each other by writing long posts filled with scriptures .Its difficult to read and you do feel a bit stupid then asking silly questions when you dont know much about scripture etc.

Tim Robbins

robindch wrote:

Quite a few of the protestants here seem to have an active interest in propagating their religion and taking part in discussions in this forum is one of the ways which they believe that they can do this. And this, I believe, is because within the protestant religious context, propagation (aka, "the great commission") is a much more important religious activity than it is in catholic circles, where it's traditionally been understood to be the responsibility of the institutional church, rather than individual members.

I would agree with this.

More basically, in marketing terminology, modern protestantism has evolved to propagate -- extremely effectively it has to be said -- using viral marketing. And this person-to-person mode (a bit like a financial pyramid scheme) works much more rapidly than centralized institutional propagation, relying principally on state support and propagation through children and military and cultural subjugation which takes ages to produce results. And since viral marketing is effective in this way, this mode of propagation spreads itself, as well as it's payload, at the expense of non-viral modes. In memetic terminology, modern protestant memes are transmitted rapidly horizontally as compared to catholicism's much slower vertical transmission. Hence, I believe, more protestants on boards.ie than catholics.

Make sense?

Yes, but I am not sure how effective it is. It would be interesting to see some stats. I suppose this meme goes right back to the reformation and it is quite a successful agent at propaganting as you described.
That's just my opinion.
Perhaps there should be a separate Catholic and Protestant forum(s)?
The current format doesn't seem to be working for Catholics.

Dades

Tim Robbins wrote:

Perhaps there should be a separate Catholic and Protestant forum(s)?
The current format doesn't seem to be working for Catholics.

Don't see much point in that TBH. The issue at hand isn't an inter-faith one - it's the faithful under siege from the faithless I thought.

Popular and all as the A/A forum is, you still need theists for a lively discussion involving atheism, and most of them live here.
But a stricter approach here wouldn't bother me in the least.

Nevyn

I think it should be made clearer that the forum was not a format for christain or church bashing.

robindch

> Yes, but I am not sure how effective it is. It would be interesting to see
> some stats.

Yes, it would be. The first thing one could do is to compare protestant websites with catholic websites -- how many are there of each, what traffic do they generate, is there a community around them, what advertizing do they do, etc, etc? In my own experience, there are very few catholic websites, and those that are there have a tendency to float listlessly in the wake of the vibrant and lively protestant ones. Compare, for example, what I believe are the top protestant and catholic sites: http://www.answersingenesis.org with http://www.vatican.va -- which one is more welcoming, community-oriented, friendly and therefore, more likely to procure and hold more converts?

Secondly, and this is in the realms of university research unfortunately, one could attempt to carry out some large-scale survey investigating the reasons why people hold particular modes of religious belief. You could, for example, quite easily put my belief above about vertical and horizontal transmission to the test.

> I suppose this meme goes right back to the reformation and it is quite a
> successful agent at propaganting as you described.

I've rabbitted on about this before, but I currently believe that it's the strong decentralizing tendency, together with rapid local evolution within protestantism which has it growing, where the centralizing and dogmatic tendencies of catholicism cause it to wilt. An excellent example of this is the use of focus-groups by USA-based megachurches before they set up in a particular area. I don't believe the Vatican will ever do this

> The current format doesn't seem to be working for Catholics.

Yes, but as above, I think this is an issue for the catholics themselves, rather than the boards -- it's just a channel they don't seem to be comfortable with, even anonymously.

Tim Robbins

robindch wrote:

Yes, but as above, I think this is an issue for the catholics themselves, rather than the boards -- it's just a channel they don't seem to be comfortable with, even anonymously.

That's a good point, even though it is anonymous they are still don't feel comfortable joining in discussions.
One most also consider that maybe for adult Catholics their beliefs are exceptionally personnel and private and it is something they prefer not discussing. This point is separate from their knowledge of scripture.

Dave!

Archeron wrote:

I can always discuss my spiritual beliefs with people who I know wont pick apart every aspect of what I say.

AKA, Yes-people!

Puck wrote:

However keeping the board open for that also leaves it open to those who seem to get great pleasure from attacking people who believe in things that they don't.

Oh don't be so sensitive! People are always going to argue over things they see as unreasonable or wrong. I'm pro-choice, that doesn't mean I should have a pro-choice forum where pro-lifers aren't allowed, for fear that they might out-argue me.

I do hear what people like Archeron are saying... Atheists do tend to attack religions quite regularly (there's a reason for this), and it appears quite hostile, especially to the newly religious person who is trying to learn more about their faith.
But according to the charter, the purpose of the forum is, "to discuss Christian belief in general, and specific elements of it, between Christians and non-Christians alike." That leaves it open, as was mentioned, to us heathens questioning you theists' beliefs.

But you make it seem like we're digging up graves or something... There are threads on the forum that seem to be exclusively Christian, and that atheists either don't enter or else tread carefully within. The 'Praise the Lord' thread and the prayer request thread for example.

If you want to turn this forum into one for a bunch of nodding heads to get together and talk about how deadly Jesus is, then go for it, and you'll no doubt lose the Atheist population from it. But that would be contrary to the purpose that was envisaged when the forum was created.


To be honest my opinion is that if you don't want your opinion challenged, then don't post -- regardless of the topic for discussion (religion is not exempt). I expect my own opinion to be challenged regularly too, and it is. Sometimes I get out-argued by someone with more experience or knowledge, a clearer understanding of what's being discussed, or just because I was talking b*llocks! It happens, so I just go off and educate myself more. Sometimes I'll realise "aha! I was right, I just didn't have this information!" and other times I'll see that I was wrong, and the other person was right, and thus my opinion changes.

Nevyn

I think it would have more to do with the fact they feel they would be derided for not having 'grown out of thier faith" and for not thinking for themselves.

I was brought up a catholic and was even a minister of the euchrist, but it wasn't for me it didn't meet my spiritual needs.

I have a lot of respect for people that it does and are happy in the faith they were brought up in and as a result I don't have a lot of time for on paper only catholics.

Archeron

I made a mention earlier in the thread that my opinions regarding religious discussion has been swayed by the AH forum, and I would embellish that statement now by saying that the threads I have seen that make, albeit in jest, genuinely (to me) sinister sounding remarks about religion and its followers have skewed my outlook as a whole. When I made reference to the potentially hostile audience, I meant boards as a whole, not these specific forums that discuss religion. That was a stupid, and downright rude, generalization on my behalf and I apologize for that.

I like discussion, and I genuinely feel that it is one of the best ways to learn. I have had some good arguments (not the right word) with people on this site about a myriad of different subjects, and they have all been wholly enjoyable, and I have learned something from most of them. I do know that my knowledge of my faith is rather limited, and the occasions I originally dipped into the Christianity forum, the level of conversation seemed way out of my league, so I did not take part. I study this specific subject at my own rather slow pace.

Aside from the above, somebody else mentioned peoples faith perhaps being personal to some people. I am one of those people. My faith is intensely personal to me, and I suppose in a way, due to my own limited knowledge of the actual scriptures and my own imaginitive interpretations, probably quite unique to me too. It may sound sad to say that I can take to heart things I read on the internet, but on this one particular subject, I actually do.

This is probably the reason why stinging comments from other fora and society generally, stick in my mind and help decide whether I would discuss this personal subject of religion on the site, and until now, that decision has always been not to.

For me, although I have always been a Catholic, I am now very much in a learning stage whereby it is only within recent times I have decided to find out more about this whole religion thing.

Anyways, these are my own honest opinions about it. I saw the thread title and when I answered I gave my honest opinion. I would and do welcome open debate with people about Christianity, as it will help me understand it better.
To answer the OP, originally,the reason I, as a Catholic didnt really come into this forum was that I felt that this forum was a little too deep for me at the time, and in more recent times, when I have decided to learn more about the subject, the decision to not partake was swayed by what I feel is a kind of sentiment about the world as a whole, not the specific threads in this forum.

I reckon that these feelings probably come from my own frustration at my inability to intelligently debate such a personal subject, but hopefully, in time, I will learn better; either enough to know the answers, or the ability to ignore it. It would be good if part of that learning process was within boards as their are good people on this site.

I really dont like the idea of a seperate forum for Catholic and Protestant; in fact I agree with the statement that its down to Catholics to start being active about their faith and being proud of what they are. I just want to be honest in my answer to the OP's question, because I do think its an important one.

Puck

No I wouldn't like to have it Christians only either. What I meant when I said I feel my hands are tied is that it is hard to write a charter that welcomes Christians and non-Christians with a genuine interest and respect while also guarding against not only those who are abusive but also those who's sole reason for asking questions and debating is to find some way to prove the Christians wrong. Not every Christian is an apologist and it's not quite nice to have to defend your sincere beliefs at every turn just to satisfy someone who really doesn't care what your answer is anyway.

BrianCalgary

I'm concerned about comments made whereby posters feel threatened by this board. I can see why.

A possible solution for those that are searching and seek Christian answers.

Post you question and qualify it by adding, Christians only answer. The regular atheists on this board are very respectful about such requests, the Christians should be patient with their answers and your questions.

The mods would police this type of request very carefully.

Give it a shot and we'll see how it works.

Tim Robbins

BrianCalgary wrote:

I'm concerned about comments made whereby posters feel threatened by this board. I can see why.

A possible solution for those that are searching and seek Christian answers.

Post you question and qualify it by adding, Christians only answer. The regular atheists on this board are very respectful about such requests, the Christians should be patient with their answers and your questions.

The mods would police this type of request very carefully.

Give it a shot and we'll see how it works.

Hi Brian,
I think the problem with that is there does not seem to be agreement as to what a Christian is. Some Christians are quite adamant that their particular definition is the only correct definition.

I remember someone posted up an educational video by a Christian theologian Robert Beckford and someone replied saying he was not Christian because they could not see evidence of Christ in his life.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055009227&referrerid=&highlight=robert+beckford

This example is not an anomoly, it happens regularly.
Thus an extremly strict definition of Christianity is presented. Is it a Christians forum or a fundamentalists Christians forum?

Putting myself in some people's shoes who are Christian and are reticent about posting on this site, I can understand their predicament to some extent. When they read comments like the aforementioned about a respected Christian theologian, surely they will start thinking that their Christianity will also be rejected.

So Brian, what I am trying to say is, even if it is a Christians' only thread, there is still the issue that some Christians will fear being mocked that they are not Christian by their fellow Christians. Or that their Church is top down or that they don't reference the Bible to argue a point. In some respects they will just feel inferior, not by atheists but by fellow Christians.

In fact that is message coming across. Comments like ' I don't enough scripture to post', why should you know scripture off by heart to say how you feel?

I think the Charter should state as to what is meant by Christianity for the purpose of this forum

1. Is Christianity driven by the Scripture?
2. Does Christianity mean you were baptised a Christian?
3. Does Christianity just mean you reject evolution?
4. Do you believe your version of Christianity is correct and all others are incorrect?
5. Is this forum for Christians who are in organised Religions, Cults or both?

It is up to the moderators what parts they are strict on and what parts they are flexible on. But they should define it and make it clear.

If it is not made clear, the quality of postings will never rise what it currently is - endless debates between fundamentalists and militant atheists which go around in circles and loose most people.

BrianCalgary

Thanks for the response Tim.

Any suggestions from anyone?

Personally, I'd like to see this forum as a safe place to ask sincere questions and to be responded to with a certain amount of respect.

Notwithstanding the Creation thread, where we have gotten to know each other well enough to be able to sling somewhat at one another.

I think of my Dad staying away from my brother and I when we got into it. My brother and I enjoyed the debate but everyone else was put off due to our intensity.

I welcome feedback especially from those who would like to post but feel threatened. PM me if you wish. And lets see if we mods can get some sort of standard set.

Scofflaw

BrianCalgary wrote:

I'm concerned about comments made whereby posters feel threatened by this board. I can see why.

To be fair, though, Archeron in particular is referring to AfterHours, rather than this forum.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Post you question and qualify it by adding, Christians only answer. The regular atheists on this board are very respectful about such requests, the Christians should be patient with their answers and your questions.

I do try to respect such requests, but I will eventually post if (a) I don't see much activity, (b) I actually know relevant scripture or definitions, or (c) the thread has wandered far enough off-topic. I certainly don't object to having to mind my P's and Q's, and I don't really understand why anyone would want to proselytise atheism (although that's a very personal view).

Part of the problem, however, is that am a regular poster. If the harassment is that of one-shot trolls, there's relatively little can be done about it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dave!

Puck wrote:

No I wouldn't like to have it Christians only either. What I meant when I said I feel my hands are tied is that it is hard to write a charter that welcomes Christians and non-Christians with a genuine interest and respect while also guarding against not only (1)those who are abusive but also (2)those who's sole reason for asking questions and debating is to find some way to prove the Christians wrong. Not every Christian is an apologist and it's not quite nice to have to defend your sincere beliefs at every turn just to satisfy someone who really doesn't care what your answer is anyway.

1. I've not seen any posts in the religion forums that are intended to offend. I'm sure the odd one gets posted, but it is far from the norm. Perhaps Christians are overly sensitive when it comes to their beliefs because they're so personal to them, etc etc., whereas Atheists in general try to treat religion the same as any other subject and knock it off its pedastal because they think it's bullsh*t.

2. I thought that was the purpose of discussion... To establish the truth. We are trying to prove you wrong, just like you (or those who partake in the discussions anyway) are trying to prove us wrong. It's the way arguments work. We push, you push back, or else step out of the way. Of course we care about the answer, or else we probably wouldn't have converted to Atheism (which the vast majority probably did, from some religion or other) -- because we weren't satisfied with the answer our previous belief system provided. If there's ever a shred of evidence produced that proves there's a god, you'll find me in my local church or synagogue or whatever the next morning.

I really wouldn't be replying if I wasn't interested in the answers here.

BrianCalgary wrote:

I'm concerned about comments made whereby posters feel threatened by this board. I can see why.

A possible solution for those that are searching and seek Christian answers.

Post you question and qualify it by adding, Christians only answer. The regular atheists on this board are very respectful about such requests, the Christians should be patient with their answers and your questions.

The mods would police this type of request very carefully.

Give it a shot and we'll see how it works.

Well that would effectively create 2 co-habiting forums, one a sanctuary for religious types, the other a place for discussion. If that's the route you want to take then that's up to you.

Scofflaw

Also, it's fair to point out that we get a certain amount of this kind of thing in the Atheism forum:

People who believe in evolution and we just are born live and die spreading our genes are very stupid!
No laws, no rules, no higher thinking. Our laws and rules are based on higher thinking about our animal instinct. You people wouldn't understand, its simple to accept there's nothing only being born and dying that's it! There's nothing more to a person than flesh and bone so falling in love and caring for family is not really necessary! we all just screw around and eat!
Fools!

Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Asiaprod

Scofflaw wrote:

Part of the problem, however, is that am a regular poster. If the harassment is that of one-shot trolls, there's relatively little can be done about it.

No, thats easy, all mods have BOOM buttons, just need to use them more.

I think respect is really the key here. Those that don't show respect, don't get to post till they do. That is not to say we cannot have good arguments. This post has done a lot to help clear the air. It is up to us mods to really get a grip on the threads. Reword the charter by all means and use it to better clarify the ground rules.

BrianCalgary

Thanks for the input.

I in no way wish to stifle debate as I enjoy it and iron strengthens iron.

However when someone posts a question asking for a Christian answer any one else should respect that the person wants a Christian perspective. if they wanted an atheistic/agnostic perspective they can easily head on over to that board to aks the question.

A case in point; thers is a new thread where a poster is questioning the existence and character of God. The first poster is an atheist who then went to explain that there was no God. (not a good post).

Wicknight had a good post by stating he wasn't a Christian yet handled the Christian perspective quite well.

in my way of thinking the first poster was out of line and under new charter his post would be deleted and he would get a warning.

Scofflaw

BrianCalgary wrote:

Thanks for the input.

I in no way wish to stifle debate as I enjoy it and iron strengthens iron.

However when someone posts a question asking for a Christian answer any one else should respect that the person wants a Christian perspective. if they wanted an atheistic/agnostic perspective they can easily head on over to that board to aks the question.

A case in point; thers is a new thread where a poster is questioning the existence and character of God. The first poster is an atheist who then went to explain that there was no God. (not a good post).

Wicknight had a good post by stating he wasn't a Christian yet handled the Christian perspective quite well.

in my way of thinking the first poster was out of line and under new charter his post would be deleted and he would get a warning.

Which neatly illustrates the dangers, since when Schuhart said "there really is no God looking after you in this approach", which you interpret as an atheistic response, you have entirely missed the context - he is referring to Teilhard's approach:

Schuhart wrote:

Teilhard wrote:

Our duty, as men and women, is to proceed as if limits to our ability did not exist. We are collaborators in creation.

There is really no God looking after you in this approach. Despite that, Teilhard himself regarded the Christian faith as the best available guide to how humanity might take itself further.

Emphasis added for clarification. Teilhard's approach is unquestionably Christian, so Schuhart has not made an atheist reference at all - you have made that assumption because you know Schuhart to be an atheist. Remember: ask questions first, and shoot later.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Puck

Have to agree with Scofflaw there. I don't think it was intended as an atheistic response but I could see how it could be taken that way. Best to ask first.

Schuhart

I have a lot of sympathy for Brian’s outlook, and the general issue of the need to ensure that the Christianity forum is not over-run by heathens looking to tear down the temple. I agree that much good would come from increasing discussion on Christian themes, with atheists and others respecting discussions where Christian responses are requested. Let me also stress (because I know that the written word alone does not always communicate everything) that I’m not at all miffed at Brian highlighting my post in this context. It’s useful to spend some time discussing this, so that we do get a clearer picture of the issues involved.

Like some have pointed out, I did actually regard this as a Christian response (while its not especially relevant, I would also point out the OP only specified Christian responses after Asiaprod asked for clarification). Teilhard was a Catholic priest who stayed true to his faith throughout his life and most certainly regarded himself as a Christian. For example, he respected his clerical vow of obedience, which prevented him from publishing his work in his lifetime.

In the context of the issue, I believe it’s a valid Christian response – but obviously not the only Christian response. Teilhard’s view seems to me to be powerfully revealing in the context of the issue raised. In general, I think his philosophy offers scope for convergence and understanding between Christianity and people of no faith. But that’s another days’ thread.

I think the issue does show how difficult it can be to define what is Christian. Does a Christian have to accept the idea of an interventionist God, capable and interested in saving an individual from physical danger? Does a Christian have to accept the divinity of Jesus? Ultimately, if a person labels himself a Christian, and that labelling seems sincere, can anyone take it from him?

Scofflaw

Schuhart wrote:

I think the issue does show how difficult it can be to define what is Christian. Does a Christian have to accept the idea of an interventionist God, capable and interested in saving an individual from physical danger? Does a Christian have to accept the divinity of Jesus? Ultimately, if a person labels himself a Christian, and that labelling seems sincere, can anyone take it from him?

In my father's house, there are many mansions.

cordially,
Scofflaw

BrianCalgary

Thanks Schuhart, I wasn't slamming you; because I understand that your response was done with the best of intentions.

I also disagree with both Scofflaw and Puck. The reason I highlighted the post is because it highlights this discussion. We had a poster who we all know isn't a Christian. The OP may not know that. Wicknight identified himself as such whereas Schuhart didn't.

I don't object to shuharts post just the lack of identification.