What about the trains in Ireland ?

Geoffroy

Hello,

I'm French and I'm Libertarian for ethical reasons. I have read (on wikipedia) that "the rail network in Ireland was developed by various private companies". In France, people say that we shouldn't privatize the national trains firm because, in the UK, trains are privatized and they are always in late, if they come !

I would like to know the facts in Ireland. Are trains always in late ? Are they often cancelled ?

monument

When it says “various private companies”, it is referring to history.

Mort of the current Irish rail network was built at a time when Ireland was still under British rule. Many of the companies that built the Irish rail network would have also owned networks in the UK at the time.

Today the rail network in Ireland is fully state-owned.

Geoffroy

oh ! Excuse me :rolleyes:

Alun

But the trains are still often late or cancelled

Gurgle

Geoffroy wrote:

I would like to know the facts in Ireland. Are trains always in late ? Are they often cancelled ?

Its difficult to qualify the term 'late'; the trains show up at times and frequencies that are difficult to correlate to the timetables. The intercity time tables can basically be summarized as 'one each way, morning, afternoon and evening'.

The commuter routes' timetable is 'several in the morning, several in the evening'.

They aren't privately run either, they're all under the management of a beauracratic nightmare called Iarainroid Eireann.

In France, you shouldn't change the way you run your trains because your system actually works.

The Paris metro is the best I've ever been on, and the inter-city trains have enough seats for all the passengers and follow the timetables. Thats enough to put you a century ahead of us.

Geoffroy

Gurgle wrote:

The Paris metro is the best I've ever been on, and the inter-city trains have enough seats for all the passengers and follow the timetables. Thats enough to put you a century ahead of us.

Perhaps but a ticket costs up to 8€ for going to Paris from the suburb (and this ticket is 8€ subsidized). (french cost of life is 2/3 of Ireland cost of life).

The SNCF (the official monopoly) is nearly bankruptcy, and this official monopoly is on strike around once a month ...

The rail network in France seems to be good, but isn't it expensive ? I believe the more expensive is our TGV.

parsi

Gurgle wrote:

, and the inter-city trains have enough seats for all the passengers .

I wonder why ?

Yesterday I was in Heuston. There were three trains to Cork in the space of two hours - 15:00, 16:00 & 17:00 - they were all full. In fact they were announcing that the 15:00 was standing room only.

How would you resolve that situation ? What I would do is make reservations compulsory on peak-services. But then we'd have the moaners saying that it's a stealth tax or that they have a right to stand.

If Ryanair fill up a plane they don't magic up another one for the people who wanted to travel but couldn't book a seat. We need to embrace reservations and that would also have the benefit of putting an end to our insane habit of arriving early to form a queue...

Gurgle

parsi wrote:

Yesterday I was in Heuston. There were three trains to Cork in the space of two hours - 15:00, 16:00 & 17:00 - they were all full. In fact they were announcing that the 15:00 was standing room only.

Its been like that on every inter-city line in the country every friday evening for decades.

How to solve it?

More carriages.
More trains.
Investment.
Scheduling services to meet demand.

Its not rocket science. IE has spend millions on reports, plans, studies, market research and advertising. A few euro in the direction of providing enough seats would be good.

Geoffroy wrote:

Perhaps but a ticket costs up to 8€ for going to Paris from the suburb (and this ticket is 8€ subsidized). (french cost of life is 2/3 of Ireland cost of life).

Paris is 10-15 times the size of Dublin. Where your suburbs are is equivalent to our commuter towns, and it costs about 8€ each way on a bus that takes 1.5 hours to cover 20 miles. Most of the commuter towns don't have rail services - they used to but they were shut down decades ago.

You're paying about the same for a much better service.

parsi

Gurgle wrote:

Its been like that on every inter-city line in the country every friday evening for decades.

How to solve it?

More carriages.
More trains.
Investment.
Scheduling services to meet demand.

Its not rocket science. IE has spend millions on reports, plans, studies, market research and advertising. A few euro in the direction of providing enough seats would be good.

And what are these carriages going to do during the week when they are not needed ? And how are they going to fit these extra trains into an otherwise crowded schedule ? Everybody wants to go home from Dublin during a couple of hours on a Friday evening and everyone wants to arrive back during a similar period on Sunday. No amount of scheduling is going to solve that problem. We need people to accept that there are x,000 seats during that peak band and they will be sold first-come, first-served. If you don't want to reserve try going outside the peak band.

corktina

parsi wrote:

And what are these carriages going to do during the week when they are not needed ? And how are they going to fit these extra trains into an otherwise crowded schedule ? Everybody wants to go home from Dublin during a couple of hours on a Friday evening and everyone wants to arrive back during a similar period on Sunday. No amount of scheduling is going to solve that problem. We need people to accept that there are x,000 seats during that peak band and they will be sold first-come, first-served. If you don't want to reserve try going outside the peak band.

yes i think i agree...and theres the safety aspect too....i hate to think what would happen in an accident in a full and standing train...or even an emergency brake application....

Gurgle

parsi wrote:

And what are these carriages going to do during the week when they are not needed ? And how are they going to fit these extra trains into an otherwise crowded schedule ?

They can play house with them in the yard for all I care.

3 trains in 2 hours between Irelands 2 biggest cities isn't a crowded schedule.

SeanW

Geoffroy wrote:

Hello,

I'm French and I'm Libertarian for ethical reasons. I have read (on wikipedia) that "the rail network in Ireland was developed by various private companies". In France, people say that we shouldn't privatize the national trains firm because, in the UK, trains are privatized and they are always in late, if they come !

I would like to know the facts in Ireland. Are trains always in late ? Are they often cancelled ?

Geoffroy;

The Irish long distance railway services are a disaster. Some of this is due to lack of investment in the system over the years, some of this is due to the level of incompetence within Iarnrod Eireann. However, given Ireland's recent experiences of privatising other former semi-states, such as Eircom, and the mess that was in the U.K. rail network during the Railtrack years, I don't think many people seriously believe that privatisation would make things better at all.

The above posters are correct about the origin of Ireland's railways: they were built by British private companies, they all merged into GSR (Great Southern Railways) in the early part of the 20th century and nationalised into CIE (Coras Iompair Eireann) during some troublesome times in the 1940s and 1950s. In 1986 CIEs operations were split into 3 sub-companies, Dublin Bus, Bus Eireann and Iarnrod Eireann/Irish Rail.

Geoffroy

It's really strange this situation. We pay the same in France but the service is better in France. It's prove that if the trains is a disasters in the UK it isn't due to the privatization (in Ireland it's the same thing but full state-owned).

dubhthach

Geoffroy wrote:

It's really strange this situation. We pay the same in France but the service is better in France. It's prove that if the trains is a disasters in the UK it isn't due to the privatization (in Ireland it's the same thing but full state-owned).

The problem is lack of investment, for years the Irish goverment refused to do anything in way of proper investment in rail transport, of course for years the irish goverment was verging on a state of bankruptcy :rolleyes:

So it's only really in last 5years that we've started to see anything in way of proper money spent on railways but after so many years of neglect it's gonna take awhile for things to catch up to where they should be.

John R

Geoffroy wrote:

It's really strange this situation. We pay the same in France but the service is better in France. It's prove that if the trains is a disasters in the UK it isn't due to the privatization (in Ireland it's the same thing but full state-owned).

The French government have been heavily investing in their railways pretty much since WW2 ended including an impressive network of dedicated high-speed lines.

Until recently Ireland was a very poor country and the railways along with the rest of the infrastructure was starved of investement.

The population and industries of the two countries are completely different also. Ireland has never had much heavy industry meaning that the railways have never had much bulk freight to generate income.

As well as the country's size giving a much larger economy of scale French rail gets a large amount of through business from it's neighbouring countries, something Ireland cannot do.

There is simply no fair comparison between the two countries rail networks.


Privatisation has been a huge disaster for the UK rail system. The network is still operating only because 10 times as much public money is being put in now then was put in when it was publicly run.

When it was sold off 10 years ago the network was in an overall poor condition from decades of neglect and under-investement but the essentials were still being taken care of.

The track and signalling were in a fit state for the services being run and in general safety was a high priority.

Under private control the track was let fall into a dangerous condition until a number of crashes occoured and emergency work has had to be carried out to fix large sections of the network (all paid for by the taxpayer) while the services have been slowed to speeds the fatuiged rails could cope with.

monument

Geoffroy wrote:

oh ! Excuse me :rolleyes:

My first reply was not meant as hostile or derogatory, but I guess I’ll excuse you as you’re “french”. :rolleyes:

Idbatterim

i highly doubt Paris is 15 times the size of Dublin, Dublin is the biggest primate city in the world if what i have read is correct, if you are talking about the total built up area, i would love to know how much bigger paris really is.

spank_inferno

Going for a week to tours next year & thinking of taking the TGV to Paris for the day

So I checked out the price....
Tours - Paris, nearly 200kms, journey time 70mins
€56 with assigned seating

I havent taken the train to cork/limerick in a while but I think an assigned seat on 1hr 200km journey its pretty good value compared to here

Vive le SNCF!

Clare gunner

Compared to Europe and even the UK.Irelands train service is a national disaster.Actually compared to Soviet Russia it is a disaster,according to one former resident of there.Ireland actually once had a pretty efficent rail system,but due to various govts incompetance,shortsightnedess and bad planning,many samall lines that are now required to service the Western part of the country,need to be re laid or never will be .Also one thing Ireland never had which most of Europe had was a total war and destruction of its major cities and infrastructure.Hence when Europe rebuilt,it provided for expansion and demand into its new systems right off.Ireland has never done this or needed to.Thats why we have delays as huge 40ft trucks try and navigate village roads more suitable for an ass and cart.:rolleyes:

On average in Europe you can get a train between any major city near enough on the hour,[for about the price of a short booked Ryanair flight],and be grauenteed that you will be there within the desiginated time on the timetable.Within minutes that is.Ireland,we should add onto our time tables Departures[proably] Arrivals[when it shows up, about ].:rolleyes:

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=Idbatterim] Dublin is the biggest primate city in the world if what i have read is correct,

Dublin is the biggest Monkey city in the World?????:eek: Never a truer word said there mate:D Chimps tea party every day in the Dail.:D

Ham'nd'egger

Clare gunner wrote:

many samall lines that are now required to service the Western part of the country,need to be re laid or never will be

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Galway, Sligo and Westport CWT'ed in the last few years?

OTK

Geoffroy wrote:

I have read (on wikipedia) that "the rail network in Ireland was developed by various private companies". In France, people say that we shouldn't privatize the national trains firm because, in the UK, trains are privatized and they are always in late, if they come !

I would like to know the facts in Ireland. Are trains always in late ? Are they often cancelled ?

The Irish Rail company has not published reliability statistics in the past but plans to do so in the future. So it is not possible to say how reliable they are. The UK train companies publish extensive statistics and have done so for some time. Other than that you can only rely on anectdotal evidence. Does the SNCF publish performance statistics? If they do then you could compare and get a better answer than what 'people say'.

Privatisation is not a simple thing. You can have partial privatisation as they have in the UK (the tracks are owned by the government). Even in the USA, Amtrak is controlled by the government. Full state ownership of train operators and tracks exists in Ireland. Also you can have ths state contracting out the operation to a private company.

It would be too simplistic to say privatisation of rail is bad because one country has privatised rail operators and people say their trains are late. Really you would have to compare a number of train networks with similar amounts of cash going into them and see who had the best output.

France has around 40 cities with >100,000 urban population while there are just 3 cities on the island of Ireland of this size. The French population is more urbanised than Ireland so rail is more viable.

Libertarianism is not popular in Ireland although I imagine it is moreso than in France. There is little pride amongst Irish people for their state institutions and little trust that state workers are as efficient as their private counterparts. At the same time, there is a lot of mistrust of private industry which often seems to operate in concert with the state. Irish people tend towards cynicism.

Marksie

Interestingly on statistics they will occasionally publish something which says that 96% of trains are on time.

If you get talking to the inspectors and station staff you find some interesting facts... a train in Ireland is on time if it is less than 15minutes late.

I was part of the Portlaoise group and few years back we secured a copy of a report commissioned by the then transport minister Mary O'rourke

It was a kick for touch exercise basically by her but it made for interesting reading
To summarise:
A) the irish rail managements focus on intercity was the wrong approach
They were locked in the 1970s and should be "encouraged to leave" and replaced.
C) Improving the commuter network was essential.
D) Goods tranposrt by rail should be curtailed.
E) the managers are engineers and have no real clue on customer relations

Now that report was over 7 years old by now, and nothing has been done.

Really the whole thing is a mess, the system was in place, but it is a case of squandering the family inheritance.
Money is just being pumped into it and we are really seeing nothing of value coming out of it.

parsi

marksuttonie wrote:

Interestingly on statistics they will occasionally publish something which says that 96% of trains are on time.

If you get talking to the inspectors and station staff you find some interesting facts... a train in Ireland is on time if it is less than 15minutes late.

A plane in the US is on time if it arrives within 15mins -

http://www.bts.gov/help/aviation.html

Marksie

parsi wrote:

A plane in the US is on time if it arrives within 15mins -

http://www.bts.gov/help/aviation.html

Didnt know that actually..is that due to the sheer volume and all the different airlines?

In which case would it aplpy here? or is it just massaging figures

MarkoP11

The real fun is the internal statistics IE use have different metrics to those made publically available. The DART stats are so complex that you could hide anything in them. Externally its 15 minutes on everything intercity bar Cork, Belfast and Limerick but internally its been 10 minutes for years

So Kildare local trains are meant be 90% to within 10 minutes, but internally its down as 85% within 10

Of course if you simply slow all the trains down by 10 minutes you can easily beat the system

Reliability as in train runs is 99.6% to 99.8%

John R

MarkoP11 wrote:

Of course if you simply slow all the trains down by 10 minutes you can easily beat the system

That is what has happened in the UK. Pereformance figures are very important for the train operators as if they fall below certain levels they have to refund % to season ticket holders as well as refunding people on individual delayed trains.

Nearly all of them have added large amounts of padding to the public timetables, particularly for the final legs of trips as the punctuality is determined by arrival at terminus.

Practically all of the inter-city lines are now slower than they were in 1995 under BR. Even the WCML that has had billions in track and signalling upgrade work, a speed increase from 110mph to 125mph and a new fleet of tilting trains is struggling to beat journey times from 10 years ago on many routes according to the public timetables.

OTK

Padding the journey times comes at a cost - passengers will switch to alternative modes as the journey times gets longer. I would prefer an accurate assessment of how long a journey takes 98% of the time rather than a best case scenario.

Driving in the city is not that great for reliability in comparison with rail. I often seem to run into huge delays for one reason or another. Got caught at the eastlink bridge for nearly an hour due to some poxy concert.

Genghis

I'd like to post an alternative view.

I travel every day Portlaoise to Dublin. I practically always get a seat, the trains are generally clean, and where the train is leaving from either Portlaoise or from Heuston, it is by and large on time - in fact I would say that I have probably missed more trains by being 2 minutes late myself than I have been delayed for more than 15 minutes. Furthermore, the new Cork-Dublin service is absolutely excellent. I would also say that IE are generally better at customer service than (say) Dublin Bus, and will always try to explain when things go wrong.

I do recognise problems (and for some reason there have been more delays recently). These would include:

- The 05:30 service Cork to Dublin rarely 'arrives' on time. This seems to be misscheduled as more often than not it has to 'trail' a slow moving commuter train into Heuston.
- Not having 4 tracks at least as far as Kildare is a major weakness. Al it takes is for one train to break-down at peak times and the next 2 hours schedule is buggered. If you were to analyse the reasons for delays, I would say this infrastructure weakness would account for 80-90% of delays.
- Related to the above, a 4 track system would improve capacity on shorter commutes - allowing longer distance commuters and intercity passengers a quicker route to Heuston, while ensuring that people getting on at stations closer to the capital are not boarding packed trains.

I know that part of the reason I have such a pleasant journey would be the times I travel (before 7:15 in the morning after 6:00 in the evening), and the fact that I am often boarding an originating train (which starts empty).

Travelling 80km each way each day is not easy, but I can only imagine the hell it would be to travel by car or bus. The train is the only way to go for me!