Mid-late stage tournament play (and 2 Jackpot 20 F/O hands)..

boba_fett3099

Okay so heres the deal, I feel like i've been playing some really good poker lately in the early stages of tournies and in any cash games i've been playing. The problem is i seem to be able to build up a nice stack in the early stages but when we reach the mid-late stages of the tournament i've either been blinded into push or fold territory or else i try and play too aggressively and blow my stack making a move. Take these two hands as an example:


Hand 1:

Jackpot 20 F/O tonight. Down to three tables. Blinds are 200/400 and i've got about 12,000 average is about 8,000. I have a pretty aggro image but have only showed down decent hands. I've been running over the table for the most part and no-one seems to be playing back at me.

One limp to me and i limp in mid position with Js8s. Two limpers after me and sb(with approx. 5000) makes it 1500. BB and first limper call, i call and one limper after me calls. So four players to the flop:

Flop (6400)

4d 6h 9s

Check, check and i bet 3500 (comments?). Folded to sb who calls with AQ, ace high holds up and i've lost half my stack in a hand i shouldn't have been involved in. So does everyone fold this hand preflop??? How would you have played it?

Hand 2:

Down to 2 tables blinds 300/600 and after some aggressive play, then a double up and then a big race with my fours holding up against AK i've got about 16,000 and am probably the chip leader on my table. I'm still running over the table but my image is probably becoming a bit LAG.

Folded to CO who raises to 2400. CO (10,000 approx.) is a donk who thinks KQ or A7s is a monster but i have seen him fold to a re-raise once or twice before. Same villian as Hand 1. When he bets 2400 I’m thinking his range is KJ+, A5-A10 or 55-99 and I think I can get him to lay down everything except 88 or 99 and possibly A10.

Folded to me and i look down at 33. I ask him how much he has behind and he doesn't look comfortable at all. I push (Comments?).

He dwells up for a bit and calls with A9o:eek: and wins the race and i'm crippled.

Again does anyone get involved in this hand?

I guess what im asking is how much do you get involved with say two tables remaining when you have an average stack of 15-20bbs. Are you playing many/few pots? Whats your limping/raising range in mid-late position?? are you ever open limping?? Are you alwyas raising when folded to your button? Any help/advice is much appreciated...Thanks to anyone who has taken the time to read/reply to this.

Edit: Also are you willingly taking a race at this stage of the tournament or is this just passing up a skill edge on your opponents??

phantom_lord

how does ace high hold up when you've tp?

I wouldn't limp j8s, and certainly wouldn't call a raise with it.

I don't play tournaments very often, but when it was down to the last 2 tables in the gjp game last weekend, I only limped 2 hands. Every hand I played I raised with.

Raising when folded to you in the co/button is standard. racing is fine.

LuckyLloyd

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LuckyLloyd

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boba_fett3099

phantom_lord wrote:

how does ace high hold up when you've tp?

I wouldn't limp j8s, and certainly wouldn't call a raise with it.

I don't play tournaments very often, but when it was down to the last 2 tables in the gjp game last weekend, I only limped 2 hands. Every hand I played I raised with.

Raising when folded to you in the co/button is standard. racing is fine.

Sorry board had 9s not 8s.

Thanks for the replys guys. I know these were both stupid, unneccessary moves but i was just trying to play a lot of pots because i was runnung over the table and i've been blinded away by playing too tight in these stages in the last few tournaments i've played.

bubbleking

hand 1: fold preflop. as Llyod said limping with trash is never good never mind calling a raise with it.

hand 2: bad call by the villain but even still you put your tournament life on the line for a coin flip you have a decent stack and if your confident you can run over the table fold 33 here every time.

i know phil hellmuth is a prat but what he says about mid - late stages of a tourny is kinda true:
if you have lots of chips take less risks
if you have little chips be prepared to gambol

ITT-Pat

ah now i wouldn't be blaming the villain here. you're a bad player fettman. bad player

cooker3

Hand 1. Fold and fold to raise. It's trash and you just don't need to get involved.
Hand 2. Fold again, there is simply no need to get involved. Your stack is more then good enough and no need to gamble yet.
In both hands your image is laggy and you pushed with not much and expect players who for the most part are calling stations to fold. That doesn't work in that game.
You picked bad times to pick your spots, be more paitent and you would have got much further.

AKQJ10

i saw that three way all in cooker which gave u the chip lead id say, did u manage to take it down.

as for my 2cents on the above hands uv been there enough to know that u dont need to make moves at this stage as none of these players tighten up at all.

cooker3

AKQJ10 wrote:

i saw that three way all in cooker which gave u the chip lead id say, did u manage to take it down.

as for my 2cents on the above hands uv been there enough to know that u dont need to make moves at this stage as none of these players tighten up at all.

Which one, I had a lot of interesting hands all night, it was an up and down game.
I came 5th in end when all-in with AK against Albert AQ and someone else J9, flop was AQx and river gave J9 guy straight. I would have gotten extra 50 for 4th if he hadn't rivered it.
In the end Albert took it down after having a 5-1 deficit heads up, he played very well to get there, although of course he also got really lucky against me

boba_fett3099

cooker3 wrote:

Hand 1. Fold and fold to raise. It's trash and you just don't need to get involved.
Hand 2. Fold again, there is simply no need to get involved. Your stack is more then good enough and no need to gamble yet.
In both hands your image is laggy and you pushed with not much and expect players who for the most part are calling stations to fold. That doesn't work in that game.
You picked bad times to pick your spots, be more paitent and you would have got much further.

I know both of these hands are played terribly and i usually fold both hands all day long i guess it was just a rush of blood to the head. Although the second hand i just went with my read because i knew he was raising light and any decent player cant call there. But it was totally needless because the table was easy chips....Lesson learned (again!!) about jackpot players i suppose. Overall im disgusted with myself for throwing it away cos i know i could have easily made the top three and i feel apart from these two hands i was playing some of the best poker i've played in months. Unlucky not to take it down robert and well done to albert hes been playing some great poker recently.

Mellor

ITT-Pat wrote:

ah now i wouldn't be blaming the villain here. you're a bad player fettman. bad player

I believe I recall you busting on the first hand with muck last time I seen you play,


And to the OP. I think you learnt your lesson on Bad players. Any ace is a monster and WILL be defended.

ditpoker

Lloyd, bobafett is carl. Trippie is Gordon. now back on topic...

i think ALOT of what you will get from here is "fold", "dont play this trash" etc etc etc. But you know yourself you have gotten the nice chip stack in front of you by playing "trash" by making moves, by throwing your weight around effectively. you cant, especially in a 20min clock game, be waiting on AA and KK etc etc. my best tourny results have always come when im not afraid to get involved with muck. in the hands you mention, if the 33 holds up, you've a massive stack. the other hand where AQ calls and holds up, this is, in my opinion a bad call by him and you get unlcuky that he has called. Did he think he was ahead or was he overly attached to AQ?? if either of those hands go the other way you've a big stack and motoring, probably close to victory.

i'm not saying that you necassarily played these hands great, but i do think there are merits to playing 'trash'. my thinking is, if i'm gonna play 96off, i'm gonna bring it in for a raise, i'm gonna bet at an A or K flop. very often i can take these pots down. i prefer playing TIGHT, but then when i do get involved don;t be afraid to scrap for chips. (also bear in mind i have not done well in this tourny of late, but i have won it twice and had some nice money finishes).

example of this working: (dit 15 freezeout: i raise in mid position with 34off, 2 callers, flop 5K6 with heart draw, i bet, one caller. turn is 7, i bet, i get called. river is J, i bet, and get called. my straight beats KQ... i take a nice big pot with 34. if i post this hand on boards and stop the info after the flop, i'll be told to fold preflop, and fold after the flop etc etc. i agree optimum stratgy does not suggest you get involved with 34. but when your card dead you have to mix it up.

example of this not working: same dit 15 freezeout: i raise in mid position with 68suited. one caller. flop KJ5 with two of my suit. I raise, i get reraised and i call with my draw. turn i miss my draw and opp leads out. i fold, and i take a hit to my stack with my preflop raise and post flop raise. again OPTIMUM strategy is is fold preflop, fold on flop. opp in this hand was chip leader and had AA, but i'm 99% sure i double up if i hit my draw on the turn cos i have not played it like a draw and would have him crushed.

effectively, it boils down to picking the spots right. to win a short clock tourny u gotta play trash cards at some stage, just gotta get it right timing wise.

equally, i dont like all this talk lately of M's of 12 or 16 or whatever... i just dont get it!

Mellor

ditpoker wrote:

my best tourny results have always come when im not afraid to get involved with muck. in the hands you mention, if the 33 holds up, you've a massive stack. the other hand where AQ calls and holds up, this is, in my opinion a bad call by him and you get unlcuky that he has called. Did he think he was ahead or was he overly attached to AQ??

And probably your earliest exits also. But whats the harm in that, an early exit is far better than the bubble. Side games are dead money tilt-a-thons.

As for the AQ hand,
The Villian had put 30% of his stack into this pot. He had 3500 left, (to most of us a 9BBs to find a fold with), and the pot was now 9900, if he wins he has nice comfy stack. He never ad to odds to fold, but from Bobafetts post, I think im safe in saying the concept is wasted on the villian.
The pot is far too big for him to let it go.

hugh2006

Hand 2:

Down to 2 tables blinds 300/600 and after some aggressive play, then a double up and then a big race with my fours holding up against AK i've got about 16,000 and am probably the chip leader on my table. I'm still running over the table but my image is probably becoming a bit LAG.

Folded to CO who raises to 2400. CO (10,000 approx.) is a donk who thinks KQ or A7s is a monster but i have seen him fold to a re-raise once or twice before. Same villian as Hand 1. When he bets 2400 I’m thinking his range is KJ+, A5-A10 or 55-99 and I think I can get him to lay down everything except 88 or 99 and possibly A10.

Folded to me and i look down at 33. I ask him how much he has behind and he doesn't look comfortable at all. I push (Comments?).

He dwells up for a bit and calls with A9o and wins the race and i'm crippled.

Maybe the donk here had noticed you, and several other players at the table going ott and all in with very low pp's in previous hands (4s v AK & 2s v AQ twice) & felt he was getting good pot odds if it was a race.
Maybe the donk had an extremely aggresive player to his left (who ended up coming 6th i think) for a large portion of the nite re-raising almost any hand & felt he needed to make a stand after getting pushed off alot of hands.
Maybe the donk remembers the previous hand where u pushed with J high & felt u were trying to muscle again.
Maybe the donk, after considering all his options at that stage of the tournament & wanting either to get to the final table with a big enough stack to do some real damage or be across the road having a pint in Ryans with his mates who'd already been knocked out, felt it was time to gamble.
Or maybe the donk was just the worst player at the tourney that nite & just got lucky with trip 9s in the end. Either way, lots of maybe's to think about.
Maybe the donk will do better next thursday.
Anyway, if everyone followed Sklanksy's Fundamental Theorem of Poker every time poker would be a boring game for us part time players.
Good luck & have fun.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Slash/ED

If you've a loose aggressive image then pushing with rag hands is surely only ever going to backfire.

ditpoker

Slash/ED wrote:

If you've a loose aggressive image then pushing with rag hands is surely only ever going to backfire.

it only backfires when you get called...

boba_fett3099

hugh2006 wrote:

Maybe the donk here had noticed you, and several other players at the table going ott and all in with very low pp's in previous hands (4s v AK & 2s v AQ twice) & felt he was getting good pot odds if it was a race.
Maybe the donk had an extremely aggresive player to his left (who ended up coming 6th i think) for a large portion of the nite re-raising almost any hand & felt he needed to make a stand after getting pushed off alot of hands.
Maybe the donk remembers the previous hand where u pushed with J high & felt u were trying to muscle again.
Maybe the donk, after considering all his options at that stage of the tournament & wanting either to get to the final table with a big enough stack to do some real damage or be across the road having a pint in Ryans with his mates who'd already been knocked out, felt it was time to gamble.
Or maybe the donk was just the worst player at the tourney that nite & just got lucky with trip 9s in the end. Either way, lots of maybe's to think about.
Maybe the donk will do better next thursday.
Anyway, if everyone followed Sklanksy's Fundamental Theorem of Poker every time poker would be a boring game for us part time players.
Good luck & have fun.

Hey nothing personal about the 'donk' comment but i was just frustrated, with myself more than anyone else, for blowing up Andy Black style!

I believe your thinking is flawed here as you say since you've seen me take some big races that i'm likely to have a small pp here. I both those hands (i was only involved in one of the AQ vs 22 hands) i had raised pre-flop and due to the odds i was getting i had to call if there was even a slight chance it was a race. Your situation was completely different to this, my raise was big enough and you had plenty of chips left behind that you should be folding here. Like i said on the night you are either 50-50 or a mile behind in this spot imo.

And yes i pushed with Jack high and your call certainly wasn't the worst in the world and it was a bad move by me as everyone seems to agree. You couldn't fold with that sized pot. But this was a big pot which was checked to me on the flop, i smelt weakness and tried to take it down with a half pot sized bet. This is a totally different situation to the other hand and you have no reason to belive that I am making a move here, it was a huge overbet all-in and it was the first time all night i had come over the top of anyone all in.

Again i didnt mean to offend you and you were certainly not the worst player in the Jackpot. Hopefully next time we clash will be on the final table!! Good luck..

boba_fett3099

hugh2006 wrote:

Maybe the donk here had noticed you, and several other players at the table going ott and all in with very low pp's in previous hands (4s v AK & 2s v AQ twice) & felt he was getting good pot odds if it was a race.
Maybe the donk had an extremely aggresive player to his left (who ended up coming 6th i think) for a large portion of the nite re-raising almost any hand & felt he needed to make a stand after getting pushed off alot of hands.
Maybe the donk remembers the previous hand where u pushed with J high & felt u were trying to muscle again.
Maybe the donk, after considering all his options at that stage of the tournament & wanting either to get to the final table with a big enough stack to do some real damage or be across the road having a pint in Ryans with his mates who'd already been knocked out, felt it was time to gamble.
Or maybe the donk was just the worst player at the tourney that nite & just got lucky with trip 9s in the end. Either way, lots of maybe's to think about.
Maybe the donk will do better next thursday.
Anyway, if everyone followed Sklanksy's Fundamental Theorem of Poker every time poker would be a boring game for us part time players.
Good luck & have fun.

Hey nothing personal about the 'donk' comment but i was just frustrated, with myself more than anyone else, for blowing up Andy Black style!

I believe your thinking is flawed here as you say since you've seen me take some big races that i'm likely to have a small pp here. I both those hands (i was only involved in one of the AQ vs 22 hands) i had raised pre-flop and due to the odds i was getting i had to call if there was even a slight chance it was a race. Your situation was completely different to this, my raise was big enough and you had plenty of chips left behind that you should be folding here. Like i said on the night you are either 50-50 or a mile behind in this spot imo.

And yes i pushed with Jack high and your call certainly wasn't the worst in the world and it was a bad move by me as everyone seems to agree. You couldn't fold with that sized pot. But this was a big pot which was checked to me on the flop, i smelt weakness and tried to take it down with a half pot sized bet. This is a totally different situation to the other hand and you have no reason to belive that I am making a move here, it was a huge overbet all-in and it was the first time all night i had come over the top of anyone all in.

Again i didnt mean to offend you and you were certainly not the worst player in the Jackpot. Hopefully next time we clash will be on the final table!! Good luck..

shoutman

Fairly stung there boba, you just cant tell who is going to be reading these forums.....

Anyway my comments on the hands in question would just be repeating what has been said before me, there is no need to get involved in these situations with trash etc.

boba_fett3099

shoutman wrote:

Anyway my comments on the hands in question would just be repeating what has been said before me, there is no need to get involved in these situations with trash etc.

I know i know...I think its safe to say they were poorly played if Jeff is the only person who agrees with me;) ..

shoutman

boba_fett3099 wrote:

Jeff is the only person who agrees with me;) ..

Says it all really :rolleyes:

Goodluck2me

actually carl, i dont hate the way these hands were played but i do hate the situation you played them in. if your a LAG playing against even semi-loose players you simply cant bluff. In your OP you said you only showed down decent hands well 22 my friend is not a decent hand. to have this solid image you want to be showin AK/AQ JJ+ otherwise your image is no use.
So in isolation these hands werent played that badly its just there is no need to get involved with shi1t hands when you showing a lot of rubbish too! fair enough?

Goodluck2me

hugh2006 wrote:

Maybe the donk ....
Maybe the donk...
Maybe the donk ...
Maybe the donk...
Or maybe the donk...
Maybe the donk

Maybe the donk..... was you?:eek:

boba_fett3099

goodluck2me wrote:

actually carl, i dont hate the way these hands were played but i do hate the situation you played them in. if your a LAG playing against even semi-loose players you simply cant bluff. In your OP you said you only showed down decent hands well 22 my friend is not a decent hand. to have this solid image you want to be showin AK/AQ JJ+ otherwise your image is no use.
So in isolation these hands werent played that badly its just there is no need to get involved with shi1t hands when you showing a lot of rubbish too! fair enough?

Yeah i guess my image wasn't as good as i first thought but i was playing a TAG game until those two races. But they were both standard and i had to call. But after the jack high hand my image was defo destroyed!!

digiman

boba_fett3099 wrote:

Yeah i guess my image wasn't as good as i first thought but i was playing a TAG game until those two races. But they were both standard and i had to call. But after the jack high hand my image was defo destroyed!!

That defo did your table image no good. You were sitting to my right all night until I went all in with AK to your raise with 44 and your 4s stood up!!.
I was kind of surprised that you got called in that hand when he had AQ, it was a bad call imo. Our table changed alot from the original way when the player in I would say seat 8 sat down. He made a lot of mad re raises which I think made some people play differently and maybe thats why you got called in that position. But I had you down as a LAG after a short enough while into the tournament, in fairness you were in quite a lot of pots with poor enough hands, and you called a lot of raises once you limped in. We didn't get involved in that many pots until I went on a bit of tilt, which I remember you saying to me at the time.

But I think the biggest lesson for me from the whole night is that once the food comes out run for it, as there was 1 min left on the clock and I still had a hand to be dealt, by the time I threw in my 72o the food was gone:mad: :mad:

ditpoker

boba_fett3099 wrote:

I know i know...I think its safe to say they were poorly played if Jeff is the only person who agrees with me;) ..

75off suit is a monstor!!!

some important poker authority wrote:

poker is not a card game, its a people game, you cant win waiting for aces.

the legend that is the chief wrote:

you wont make a shilling in this game if you never go in behind

cooker3

ditpoker wrote:

75off suit is a monstor!!!

There was guy at my first table who was a nutcase. I didn't realise this initially and actually folded kings to him on Q high flop, oh how I regretted it when I watched him play over next 15 minutes. I eventually busted him but he used my favourite line to hear at poker table for justifying his mad play. If your not in, you can't win. I just love hearing that!

Mellor

hugh2006 wrote:

Maybe the donk here had noticed you, and several other players at the table going ott and all in with very low pp's in previous hands (4s v AK & 2s v AQ twice) & felt he was getting good pot odds if it was a race.

If you felt you were against a low PP, and were happy with a race then all-in preflop is the only way to get your 50/50.
If you believed he had a low PP, then you weren't getting the pot odds. So if that was your read then it was wrong. I'm not trying to put you down. And you must of went on to a decent finish.
But semi aggressive shortstack is dodgy, all or nothing; never in-between.

hugh2006

boba_fett3099 wrote:

Hey nothing personal about the 'donk' comment but i was just frustrated, with myself more than anyone else, for blowing up Andy Black style!

I believe your thinking is flawed here as you say since you've seen me take some big races that i'm likely to have a small pp here. I both those hands (i was only involved in one of the AQ vs 22 hands) i had raised pre-flop and due to the odds i was getting i had to call if there was even a slight chance it was a race. Your situation was completely different to this, my raise was big enough and you had plenty of chips left behind that you should be folding here. Like i said on the night you are either 50-50 or a mile behind in this spot imo.

And yes i pushed with Jack high and your call certainly wasn't the worst in the world and it was a bad move by me as everyone seems to agree. You couldn't fold with that sized pot. But this was a big pot which was checked to me on the flop, i smelt weakness and tried to take it down with a half pot sized bet. This is a totally different situation to the other hand and you have no reason to belive that I am making a move here, it was a huge overbet all-in and it was the first time all night i had come over the top of anyone all in.

Again i didnt mean to offend you and you were certainly not the worst player in the Jackpot. Hopefully next time we clash will be on the final table!! Good luck..

hey boba, dont worry about offending me, i wasnt, i knew u were just venting & i have done it in the past (& called ppl alot worse than donk ).

As for the hand, ppl seem to agree with u that it was a bad call. thats fine with me, maybe it was. but at that time in the tourney, in my position and after being pushed off alot of hands previously i felt it was the right move/call for me. maybe i'm wrong, buts thats all i can say in my defence.

I had been playing fairly tight most of the nite (once folding AQs early on in the nite after my original 4xBB raise had been re-raised by the CO to put me all in & the guy was nice enough to show me his Kings (was wearing an Irish Poker Open hat if anyone knws him)(any views on that?)), but i suppose thats one of the problems with the thursday tourney, by the time u make a table image for urself, the whole table changes and you've to start all over again, & if u forget that a play u set up can look very different in ur mind to what the new guy in the next seaty sees. I'll be keeping that little nugget in mind next thursday.

Again, i wasnt offended, and hope my reply didnt come across too sarcastic. sorry if it did. Anyway, its saturday nite & i'm not drunk yet so hopefully see ya thursday. good luck & happy poker, Boba.

boba_fett3099

digiman wrote:

Our table changed alot from the original way when the player in I would say seat 8 sat down. He made a lot of mad re raises which I think made some people play differently and maybe thats why you got called in that position. But I had you down as a LAG after a short enough while into the tournament, in fairness you were in quite a lot of pots with poor enough hands, and you called a lot of raises once you limped in.

Hey digiman, nice to put a name to the face. You played some good poker. I thought my image was mostly TAG starting out but i guess i've learned to pay closer attention to my image and table dynamics before i make any moves next week! (Not that i will be making any moves:p )

boba_fett3099

hugh2006 wrote:

Again, i wasnt offended, and hope my reply didnt come across too sarcastic. sorry if it did. Anyway, its saturday nite & i'm not drunk yet so hopefully see ya thursday. good luck & happy poker, Boba.

Cheers mate, no it didn't come across sarcastic i think i just sounded a bit arrogant in my OP and wanted to apologise. To be fair, although i still disagree with the call, it wasn't the worst i've seen in the jackpot (by a long shot...and im sure everone who plays there weekly will agree!!!) and i'm sure i've made worse!!

Trippie

ditpoker wrote:

Lloyd, bobafett is carl. Trippie is Gordon. now back on topic...

Thanks for that jeff just noticed it btw. Surprised carl was confused for me because if i had pushed it wouldnt be with 3's it would probably be with 52off.

Slash/ED

We're you all on table one initially? I was there for a good while at the start, until a little after the break. It sounds like the same table.

phantom_lord

Trippie wrote:

Thanks for that jeff just noticed it btw. Surprised carl was confused for me because if i had pushed it wouldnt be with 3's it would probably be with 52off.

tutut, you were shown the power of pocket 3s in the boyne valley.