Sex before marriage

SilverChair

Hi-da-ly-do-da-ly neighbourino

Lots of threads in humanities tend to boil down the the auld back in the day line; and there is one changing value which Im particularly interested in discussing.

Sex. Specifically, when it should begin to play a part in a persons life. Now to give a quick two second, zero thought answer would be easy, its different for everyone, when it feels right etc, but this being humanities I'd expect a bit more

Should one have sex before marriage.
What really are the pros and cons involved and do you think they differ for men and women?

From a woman's point of view I suppose losing ones virginity (traditionally) is something that deserves a bit of thought. But does that Mr Right have to be the man you'll marry? Then again, why give something so intimate to a man you cant see yourself having a future with eg A holiday romance.

I know the flip side for many a young male would be that variety is the spice of life. Sex is fun, healthy and strengthens a relationship. (I wouldnt go so far as to say natural because I wouldnt advocate promiscuity without modern contraceptives).

What arguements/advice would you give to someone who was a virgin unsure about whether to wait or not.

Owen

Sex is an integral part of any relationship. This whole ethos of waiting until you're Married is a throw back to Catholic Ireland. We've all grown up a bit now. It is impossible to know someone fully, and to make a conscious decision to stay with them for the rest of your life, without having slept with them. Someone could be a complete plank in the cot, fixed, immoveable and uninspiring, and what's worse, you could end up resenting them for that.

Nevyn

Actually the waiting until you are married and only having sex with in marraige is to ensure the paterinity of any children, this predates catholism.

SilverChair for the context of this discussion and you please define marraige ?

The Sweeper

SilverChair wrote:

From a woman's point of view I suppose losing ones virginity (traditionally) is something that deserves a bit of thought. But does that Mr Right have to be the man you'll marry? Then again, why give something so intimate to a man you cant see yourself having a future with eg A holiday romance.

I know the flip side for many a young male would be that variety is the spice of life. Sex is fun, healthy and strengthens a relationship. (I wouldnt go so far as to say natural because I wouldnt advocate promiscuity without modern contraceptives).

See I have difficulty responding to this, because you've already laid out boundaries in this discussion by assuming a woman's virginity should be lost in an intimate setting and a man's shouldn't, or that a woman's virginity is a gift of some kind. You've also stated that it deserves thought, and implied that this counts more in the case of a woman's virginity than a mans.

Reinforcing these boundaries is that fact that you think a man losing his viriginity has 'a flip side' to the experience of a woman, e.g. it's an opposite or different situation. Additionally I would construe that your suggestion that sex is fun, healthy and strengthens a relationship for a man would be tempered by the argument that the girl a man wants to have a healthy, fun sex life with isn't necessarily the woman he'd want to marry.

You also, intentionally or otherwise, refer to promiscuity only in the context of a man's sex life and advise against it only on the basis of contraception (and one would assume disease prevention?)

I can't even begin to argue for or against sex before marriage when, to be honest, I can't get around all the assumptions you made in your opening post.

SilverChair

SilverChair for the context of this discussion and you please define marraige ?

Wow, thats difficult, and could send the thread in a million tangents.
A commitment to spend the rest of your life with one individual.

See I have difficulty responding to this, because you've already laid out boundaries in this discussion by assuming

No. Just going to stop you right there.
Im not setting boundaries, Im attempting to answer the question. These were some of the first generic arguments that occurred to me. Rebuttals and alternatives would be much appreciated.

You've also stated that it deserves thought, and implied that this counts more in the case of a woman's virginity than a mans.

Well thats definitely something that often comes up in this general conversation.
How important is loosing your virginity to women, and should it be?

you think a man losing his virginity has 'a flip side' to the experience of a woman

Thats been my experience

Additionally I would construe that your suggestion that sex is fun, healthy and strengthens a relationship for a man would be tempered by the argument that the girl a man wants to have a healthy, fun sex life with isn't necessarily the woman he'd want to marry.

Actually what I was going for is the generalisation (which Id like to address/anylise) is that men and women have in general a different out look on sex and its place

You also, intentionally or otherwise, refer to promiscuity only in the context of a man's sex life and advise against it only on the basis of contraception (and one would assume disease prevention?)

Dont be anal

You're being needlessly pedantic there, and inferring what wasnt implied. Ofcourse I meant disease
as well as preventing pregnancy, and I cant see how one could advise men always wear a condom without it holding that one should make sure their partner wear condoms. But then again I should mention lesbian couples and so on and so on. When you choose to go over things with a fine comb theres always something that could have been phrased better

I can't even begin to argue for or against sex before marriage when, to be honest, I can't get around all the assumptions you made in your opening post.

You dont need to tackle me, to discuss the topic

nesf

Silverchair, MADJ's issues with your OP were quite justified. The assumptions you used to phrase the question here make it very difficult to reasonably reply to it in a sensible fashion. If I throw out your assumptions about the difference between a man's and a woman's virginity then my answer would have very little to do with your original post.

Essentially, this is a very complex topic and you should phrase the question as neutrally and carefully as possible. After that you should argue your point but you should justify any assumptions you are making when doing so. This is of course if you want to debate this sensibly and intelligently, which I assume is your intention.

CathyMoran

My view is that loosing your virginity should not be taken lightly, for me I waited until I was engaged as staying with the same person for the rest of my life was important but it took us another 8 years to get married (we will be married in a month). I would be more conservative than most but I still have a very healthy and active sex life. I do not think that there is any difference in a man and a woman loosing their virginity.

I could not wait any longer, I was really looking forward to being closer to my fiancee and I do feel that it took us longer to get married as a result as there was less of a push so that would be the only thing I would have for waiting until you get married. It was still very special though.

TempestSabre

There's two questions there. One is the difference between the sexes and the other is if its right for the individual. The answer is its different of everyone regardless, and as it a personal decision only an individual will know when its right for them. You can generalise here its not helpful IMO.

CherieAmour

I think you know yourself when it's right. I've seen girls throw it away just to 'get rid of' their virginity and while they never say it, I know one or two of them have regretted this.

The same goes for some guys I know who were driven by peer pressure and desires to just do it with the first girl that came along that was willing and they actually told me they wished they'd waited for someone that meant something to them.

If you are in a relationship that is important to you and it feels totally right then you would have to give it serious thought. That person may not be your partner for the rest of your life but at least you'll have done it with someone you once loved and respected.

I think it's probably rare for people to get to marriage without having more than one partner these days but this can be a good thing. You will know what you like and will have experienced more than one partner for what that's worth - this in no way is a necessity, if you were lucky enough to end up spending the rest of your life with your first partner then that's perfect too.

I find it difficult to imagine what it must have been like for our parents generation (for those that waited), moving out of home, buying a house, getting married and having sex all for the first time at the same time! It must have been traumatic for some! I like to do things in little pieces and that's what makes the world we live in so good, we can make those choices.

The bad side is that some people feel it takes the romanticism out of some of it, but the positive is that you're better knowing as much as you can about someone before you marry them as sexual compatibility is very very important and can make or break relationships.

At the end of the day you can take advice and use it whatever way you wish, but make sure the decision is your own and that you're 100% comfortable with it.

Hope this helps

Heisenberg.

This post has been deleted.

McGinty

Just to add my 2cent worth, it is important to look at the historical development of 'waiting until marriage' and the reasoning behind it. Secondly then I would look at what value is there behind waiting until one is married, is there such a value, and this I would aim at both sexes, not just women. Then you need to look at sex itself, is it just releasing a natural urge, or is something deeper?

Historically the onus for keeping virginity was placed upon women and in my opinion, gleaned from many books both historical and literary, is that by maintaining a woman's virginity was an attempt to ensure that the man's children were his. If the woman was a virgin then there was a belief that the bloodline was kept pure, ie: no cuckoo's, however this at times has been a bit of a cod. Many women did take lovers and passed the children off as their husband's children, I cannot reference anything in particular, but there is a good book called 'Baby wars' that looks into the evoluntionary psychology of mating, procreation and rearing children. The author argues that many women saught a reliable man who will help with raising children, but on occasion had a quickie with a man who had better genes, now this is a supposition, but there some figures bandied about that 1 in 10 children in a maritial home are not the children of the husband, again I cannot reference it right now.

Also the church saught to control its parishioners through sex, and this goes right back to the church fathers (a good book that outlines this is 'The history of celibacy') by denying the natural urge to have and enjoy sex and make people anxious about sexual urges was one of the greatest strokes of control performed by the church, and its repurcissions are only being broken somewhat today, we still have some way to go, but we are breaking those bonds thankfully.

Today we have a choice to remain a virgin until married, or to have sex as and when we like. However, I feel, and maybe this is what you have tapped into, there is a focus on throwing away one's virginity like it is a dirty secret, which can often leaves those with a sense of something not feeling right. Our culture is saturated in sexual images, and the way to behave sexually. Women and men are groomed into being sexual from a young age, and this too is disturbing, the pendulum has swung to far.

My next point is then, is there an element of intimacy to sex? Do men and women feel it, or is just a female feeling. The answer is I'm not fully sure, sometimes I think men can have sex at the drop of a hat, at other times I think women are far more sexual than men. What I have ascertained through experience is that intimate sex is wonderful and the men who have been intimate with me have also felt this and loved it too. So speaking from experience only, intimate sex feels special for both sexes. But does this mean we wait until marriage?

Marriage may or may not be the answer, some people seek to be married, others don't, is it not possible to be intimate and remain unmarried. We did not have this choice before, but we do now. There is a wonderful arguement (for those of you who like/studied English) by 'The Wife of Bath' in the Canterbury Tales, she is a hotblooded women who has been married five times (each of her husbands died) and she argues against authority (the church) re: the needing to be widowed and chaste, she goes against this because it is not for her, at that time women could only enjoy sex within the confines of marriage, but we (women that is) don't need marriage to enjoy sex, we can enjoy relationships. Before I go on I am assuming that people are sexually responsible, there is too much nannying and spelling these things out, so I'm not going into that. So to sum up then, unfortunately there is no one universal answer to the problem/ solution of sex before marriage. We live in an age of choice, and people will make their choices, we can no longer cling to the old ways of one rule for all. You will always get a diverse response to a complex situation as you have addressed because we live in an age of choice.

Zillah

SilverChair wrote:

Sex. Specifically, when it should begin to play a part in a persons life. Now to give a quick two second, zero thought answer would be easy, its different for everyone, when it feels right etc, but this being humanities I'd expect a bit more

Why "more"? Its a perfectly valid response. Everyone is different. Every individual should have sex when they feel its right.

Modern contraceptives and widely available sex education gives someone all the tools they need to have safe sex with whomever, whenever.

With the risk of unwanted babies being essentially 0 and STDs not being an issue in a monogamous relationship (and the greater risk of STDs in non-monogamous relationships being a personal choice), there is no one answer to your question.

The legal state of marraige is more a civil/financial institution than it is an emotional one. Two people can be completely devoted and in love regardless of what state-signed piece of paper they possess.

upthere

The way I look at these issues is that they are above the top rules that became morals.
If we didn't have them society may and may not become ruined.
But if they said no food before supper that eating before your scheduled meal was sign of glutton and creedy person and was wrong, would you think of it as being bad to eat when hungry?

Sangre

If there is one thing family law has thought me is don't get married, so that rule would be a bit of a dampner for me.

The title kind of assumes everyone wants to get married in the first place...

I don't see what the big deal of losing one's virginity is, any more than sex with someone might be an issue. Sure you might get hurt if you pick someone random who doesn't care about you at all, but surely that's a risk everytime you have it? In any case beyond possibly having a little sense I don't think it has to be a big deal. Unless you really want it to be.
Marriage was never one of my life goals and as such "waiting" for it was never going to happen. A few years down the road and I'm still happy with that.

But then of course it's different for everyone. So people should approach this as they want to. Don't wait because other people tell you to, and don't not wait because of same. But I certainly don't think it should be done for insecurity reasons and I've heard of a lot of people saying "but they might leave me if we're not married first..." ...
then of course there's the possible issue of them being very bad in bed and unwilling to change, and you're stuck with that unless you divorce...
Plus paternity isn't so much of an issue anymore so that reason is out the window...

CherieAmour

bluewolf wrote:

Plus paternity isn't so much of an issue anymore so that reason is out the window...

What do you mean?

Nevyn

We have paternity tests these days, before that you be sure a child was yours a man would marry a virgin and then keep[ her away from other men to ensure any off sprong were his.

Zombrex

Personally I would not marry someone I had not had sex with, nor would I marry someone I had not lived with. I think it is silly and most likely will lead to difficulty when married.

aidan24326

Silverchair wrote:

Should one have sex before marriage?

Yes, absolutely. Like wicknight I would not marry someone otherwise, it is important to know someone very well before you marry them and you can't know someone fully unless you've taken those steps of having sex and equally importantly living together.

I'm amazed at how much of a big deal people attach to losing their virginity and to having sex in general. As ned78 said earlier this is just a hangover from the old Irish catholic guilt about all things sexual.

Sex is a very natural pleasurable activity and why shouldn't we all enjoy it? While accepting that there's a good reason why women have evolved to be more choosy about their sexual partners, modern contraceptives have given us alot of sexual freedom, men and women alike.

I just find it strange to see some girls using words like 'sacred' to describe their virginity. I don't see what's so sacred about it. It's just sex. The point is, it can be extra special with someone you love but at the same time it doesn't have to be all scented candles and romance either. Ok to enjoy it just for the sake of it.

Once you're careful I don't see a problem. So what if your first time might not be that great? tbh it isn't for alot of people as far as I know, even if you wait for that 'someone special'. As many of you will know it gets a whole lot better with practise

My own first time was a pretty uninspiring event. Hasn't stopped me having a good sex life now, and nor should it for anyone else.

edit- I accept that some people just want to save it for someone they love, and that's ok. Maybe it's the reasons why people feel that way that I'd be wondering about.

Well personally i think everyone should have sex before they get married. Simply out of consideration for their eventual partner/spouse. Hands up how many people were actually great at sex from the beginning? (apart from within your own heads, that is)

Having sex is like anything else. We need to learn how to do it. I shudder to think of the poor women that I had sex with first. Sure, I was eager. Sure, it was fun. But, boy, did I miss out on the whole pleasure thingy for my partner. It takes time to get past your own needs, and to start looking after the needs of your partner. And basically the only way you're going to get better is through more experiences.

Sure, if you want to be inexperienced when you get married, don't have sex. You're the one that's placing some huge value in making that "sacrifice". I have known only one man that wanted to be a virgin until he got married. Fair play to him, he lasted until he was 26(I brought him to speedating in Dublin).

Lastly, I think people need to have sex to grow as people themselves. There are many factors involved with having sex that play out into how we interact with other people, and it provides some level of confidence when dealing with the opposite sex.

I'd agree with Wicknight, and aidan24326. I seriously would have doubts in marrying someone without having had sex with them. I'm not a player by any means. I don't sleep around very much. I fully believe that having sex with someone shows us a side to them that most people don't see, and I don't think you can "love"/know someone until you have shared that experience.

Suaimhneach

It's not premarital sex if you dont plan on marrying them...

I think it is important to be intimate with someone before you commit to spending the rest of your life with them. Sex is such a huge part of a relationship, I think it is vital that it works for both parties.

daiixi

Jesjes wrote:

It's not premarital sex if you dont plan on marrying them...

Oh love it Jesjes!

I think sex before marriage is a personal thing and so it should be. My virginity meant nothing to me and I have no problem with the fact that I "lost" it to someone who I barely knew and only met up with a couple of times afterwards. The time and situation were fine for me and to say the least it was an experience. However I have an ex who was a virgin went we started going out and it meant a great deal to him as to when and to whom he lost his virginity.
As to marrying someone I'd never slept with? Would never do it. Nor would I want to marry someone whose sex drive differed greatly to mine. Why go asking for trouble?