Wi-Max in Dublin

Hacketry

I'm testing out one of Irish Broadband's Wi-Max pcmcia cards at the moment in the Greater Dublin area.

It was working fine until recently, and now gives me two seconds of live connection for every hour I spend on hold on IBB's tech support line.

Are any other Ireland Offline peeps testing this service? And if so what's your verdict?

(The cards are made by Navini Networks and my flatmate reckons they also provide the wireless guidence systems for the Israeli defence force's missiles.)

watty

They also make the ripwave kit

pointofnoreturn

It's Simply, Cost spoils technology! That unit can do 1.8Mbits and full QoS on VoIP, but not the way IBB work it. too much contention on their network, and they make wireless in ireland look like crap!

i hope you are not paying for it!

midnorthfourzer

Purely out of curiosity, I've been trying it out on the train from Connolly to Maynooth a couple of times and noting the various basestations it sees along the way.

This is a list of base transceiver stations (BTS) and where I was at the time on the train line (approximately) when the Navini card spotted them and in the order they appeared. The Navini diagnostic app has a rough distance estimator from the modem to the BTS - these are shown in parentheses where available.

Last month:

Connolly station
30
27
32
30
Drumcondra
116
27
81 (3.6km)
40 (2km)
79 (4.8km)
40 (2km)
Ashtown
79
28
17
105
Leixlip Confey
56 (8.8km)
103 (7.01km)
Maynooth


Last night:

Connolly station
network ID 295

BTS 30 (1970m)
81 (3830 metres)

Drumcondra
116
81
116
150
40
79
Castleknock
170 (2200 m)
coolmine
28
160
28
clonsilla
Leixlip Louisa Bridge
17
103
-
maynooth


Notes: Standard WiMax can't handle movement too well not to mention the rapidly changing multipath and shadowing effects screwing up the signal (have a look for WiBro if you're interested in a solution to this for DART speed connectivity).

Although I could see the various BTSs, I could only connect properly when the train stopped moving or was travelling < 10km/hr (often happens). Note: This isn't IBB's fault. Using one of the broadband speed calculators I managed to get ~246kbs download and ~136kpbs upload at one stage while stopped in Drumcondra station. Most of the time, the rate varies wildly and has dropped to < 20kbs quite often.

It's entry level WiMAX at the lowest rate possible in the 802.16 spec but it's nice to see non line of sight wireless broadband in action at last. Good for one last email check before you head home. No, I'm not paying for this.

Does anyone know where these BTSs are located? The one at Ashtown must be very close to the railway line because I was getting a 0dBm signal at one stage (huge compared to the -80 to -110dBm signal spotted everywhere else)

watty

Not impressive compared with 3G's HSDPA or the 4G service rolling out next year. Sounds like navini is implementing the Fixed Wimax service, best suited to an external aerial, but on a portable device. As you say there is a Mobile Wimax (chips only out last summer). But this isn't it.

crawler

Would not be "proper" for me to say much on this but in GENERAL the issues with 3.5Ghz are bad indoor coverage and mobility - regrardless of the technology used. the frequency is just too damn high captain'

Altreab

watty wrote:

Not impressive compared with 3G's HSDPA or the 4G service rolling out next year. Sounds like navini is implementing the Fixed Wimax service, best suited to an external aerial, but on a portable device. As you say there is a Mobile Wimax (chips only out last summer). But this isn't it.

Any updates on the who where when how good of 4G rollout?

watty

midnorthfourzer wrote:

It's entry level WiMAX at the lowest rate possible in the 802.16 spec but it's nice to see non line of sight wireless broadband in action at last.

In the context of 3.5GHz NLOS means NEAR Line of Sight, not Non Line of Sight.

You need to be below 1Ghz to 1.5Ghz approx for real NON line of sight (i.e. Like TV signals that go up to 0.87 GHz).

I'd guess we'll hear the When & Where of 4G at 870/920MHz (real non-line of sight) when they are ready to take your money

Emerson

I'd even consider 800mhz to be quite high on the spectrum for real non line of site.
Try 800khz.. obviously you're not going to get any bandwidth down there though! Plus you start getting huge amounts of electrical interference present in modern buildings the lower you go.

watty

I've tested 2.4GHz for Non- LOS. At shorter range (less than 5km) outdoors on 22dB aerials you can get a signal when you can't see the base. But not indoors. At less than 10m very much non line of sight.

At 1.2GHz I've done rather more testing, using 1/4 wave (no gain). It is very definately non-Line of Site.

I think you are confusing Skywave and Groundwave propagation. Above 4Mhz Groundwave drops off rapidly. Of course at distance the Ground wave attenuation is high which is why Night time refracted Skywave from ionisphere even at 198Khz is much stronger 500km from transmitter. At 18Mhz there seems to be little or no groundwave.

Admittedly even Non-Line of sight Skywave can be badly affected by hills, quarries, tall buildings etc, and "groundwave" doesn't care.

You can see the effect of objects producing ever sharper shadows as frequency increases on modelling software. It is a gradual process. At 800Mhz to 1GHz there is no sharpness at all and the signal can entirely "leak around" objects, at 8Ghz it is very severe. At 80GHz is it not entirely dissimilar to light in the almost total absence of signal. But even light leaks around. A dark room with a small window open to daylight has enough illumination to see every corner.

crawler

watty wrote:

I've tested 2.4GHz for Non- LOS. At shorter range (less than 5km) outdoors on 22dB aerials you can get a signal when you can't see the base. But not indoors. At less than 10m very much non line of sight.

At 1.2GHz I've done rather more testing, using 1/4 wave (no gain). It is very definately non-Line of Site.

I think you are confusing Skywave and Groundwave propagation. Above 4Mhz Groundwave drops off rapidly. Of course at distance the Ground wave attenuation is high which is why Night time refracted Skywave from ionisphere even at 198Khz is much stronger 500km from transmitter. At 18Mhz there seems to be little or no groundwave.

Admittedly even Non-Line of sight Skywave can be badly affected by hills, quarries, tall buildings etc, and "groundwave" doesn't care.

You can see the effect of objects producing ever sharper shadows as frequency increases on modelling software. It is a gradual process. At 800Mhz to 1GHz there is no sharpness at all and the signal can entirely "leak around" objects, at 8Ghz it is very severe. At 80GHz is it not entirely dissimilar to light in the almost total absence of signal. But even light leaks around. A dark room with a small window open to daylight has enough illumination to see every corner.

I so so want to show off and start talking about the proporties of light at the photonic level and even about silly things like iridium doped amplifiers BUT i wont - There are people in here with big brains far far better at it than me

sure - didn't Ford recently release a car with headlights that can "see" around corners!!

crawler

Emerson wrote:

I'd even consider 800mhz to be quite high on the spectrum for real non line of site.
Try 800khz.. obviously you're not going to get any bandwidth down there though! Plus you start getting huge amounts of electrical interference present in modern buildings the lower you go.

So no arguements that 3.5Ghz is too high then?

Emerson

watty wrote:

I've tested 2.4GHz for Non- LOS. At shorter range (less than 5km) outdoors on 22dB aerials you can get a signal when you can't see the base. But not indoors. At less than 10m very much non line of sight.

At 1.2GHz I've done rather more testing, using 1/4 wave (no gain). It is very definately non-Line of Site.

I think you are confusing Skywave and Groundwave propagation. Above 4Mhz Groundwave drops off rapidly. Of course at distance the Ground wave attenuation is high which is why Night time refracted Skywave from ionisphere even at 198Khz is much stronger 500km from transmitter. At 18Mhz there seems to be little or no groundwave.

Admittedly even Non-Line of sight Skywave can be badly affected by hills, quarries, tall buildings etc, and "groundwave" doesn't care.

You can see the effect of objects producing ever sharper shadows as frequency increases on modelling software. It is a gradual process. At 800Mhz to 1GHz there is no sharpness at all and the signal can entirely "leak around" objects, at 8Ghz it is very severe. At 80GHz is it not entirely dissimilar to light in the almost total absence of signal. But even light leaks around. A dark room with a small window open to daylight has enough illumination to see every corner.

watty, fascinating as ever!

I'm always at how well mobiles work so well indoors, so under 2ghz is relatively good for non-los. I do get annoyed when people tell me someone's going to invent a technology to overcome a physical impossibility of incredibly poor signal to noise ratio at multi ghz frequencies when a hill or dense concrete jungle is in front of them. Error correction can only do so much and Wi-Max has been marketed as a somewhat of a magical fix all imo.

Certainly 800mhz is alot better than 3.5ghz through small obstructions though, true.

watty

crawler wrote:

I so so want to show off and start talking about the proporties of light at the photonic level and even about silly things like iridium doped amplifiers BUT i wont - There are people in here with big brains far far better at it than me

sure - didn't Ford recently release a car with headlights that can "see" around corners!!

It's OK Theyv'e given me an injection and fetching ice..

crawler

Emerson wrote:

watty, fascinating as ever!

I'm always at how well mobiles work so well indoors, so under 2ghz is relatively good for non-los. I do get annoyed when people tell me someone's going to invent a technology to overcome a physical impossibility of incredibly poor signal to noise ratio at multi ghz frequencies when a hill or dense concrete jungle is in front of them. Error correction can only do so much and Wi-Max has been marketed as a somewhat of a magical fix all imo.

Certainly 800mhz is alot better than 3.5ghz through small obstructions though, true.

Telecoms is FULL of people who frequently and often tell me about the latest wonder gadget that will break the laws of physics - Personally me and physics have been good friends for a long time and it is a relationship I intend to keep true!!

Capt'n Midnight

crawler wrote:

sure - didn't Ford recently release a car with headlights that can "see" around corners!!

Amazing,
just like the Citroen DS, 52 years ago :rolleyes:

That 4G stuff sounds good, but price/performance is what matters, if it's cheap you can put up with a lower level of service.

damien

Tribune gave the IBB kit a glowing recommendation:

We admit to being sceptical when given the opportunity to try out a broadband data card for our laptop when we heard it was from Irish Broadband. But the zero-headache install data card slotted right into our trusty Dell Inspiron and found the 500kbps signal no bother. We tested it out at various sites around Dublin city and county and it worked "awlessly nearly every time within the limits set out on the map on Irish Broadband's website.

No 'contention ratios', meaning you're not sharing the connection with up to 24 other users. The speed was so good we were able to download the software for Channel 4's new on-demand service plus a 30-minute programme in the time it took to have two pints at the 40 Foot in Dun Laoghaire.

Unlike some WiFi providers we could name, we weren't logged off for no earthly reason and the data didn't cost us extra. Also we were able to use it to make a Skype call no problem . . . VOIP calls being verboten on the traditional 3G cards from mobile operators with which this competes . . . all at a lower price, at least for now, . Coverage is limited to Dublin at the moment but is extending to Cork, Galway and Limerick next year.

DAMAGE: 99 for the card, 39.95/month inc VAT. Available direct from Irish Broadband or at Harvey Normans, Peats Electronics and some others.

Urban Weigl

I've been getting average speeds in the area of 1 Mbps on Vodafone's new HSDPA (3.5G) network (been testing it since Saturday), though the latency was usually in the region of 100+ milliseconds, which isn't as good as DSL, but not bad either. Skype works on it great, and it's not like it's "verboten", Vodafone just reserve the right to introduce technological bars on it in the future. Edit: Interestingly, Vodafone's own sales people promoted to me the virtues of using Skype, I was shocked because I had read the terms and conditions and seen that they discouraged its use!

Oh, and it covers 85% of the population, not just select areas of Dublin.

Sounds like a no-brainer to me!

thebman

Have you tried playing HL2 online with it yet? Imagine it wouldn't work out so well although you'd be surprised how well it works on connections with bad ping times.