Getting into basic shape

/Andy\

Hi all, there was recently a thread about diet and conditioning for fighting, and from what I remember of it it contained some useful advice from the likes of Dragan and FiannaGym (I'm sure I'm forgetting other valuable contributors) I went to find this thread today and couldn't find it (and was reluctant to hi-jack it, so I thought I'd start my own.

The advice and help I need is decided largely by my current fitness, or lack thereof. Until the age of 17 I was in great shape and had played minor intercounty football and hurling. Five years of excessive drinking and smoking have wrought huge changes in my physique and fitness unfortunately, and I now find myself carrying perhaps an extra two- stone. I have vowed to ditch smoking asap to aid my cardio training, and my question to y'all is this:

What should I be doing, training and dietary wise, to first shift my extra weight and improve my cardio so I can eventually get back to the level I was at before? I hope to join a gym in the next few weeks and was thinking of starting off with 40 mins cardio every morning (cycle, treadmill) to get me kickstarted. Is this right? And how should I adjust my diet? What role should weightlifting play considering I ultimately hope to be able to compete in MMA?

I am very grateful for any assistance received, from what I remember of the previous thread you guys are definitely the ones to ask about this.

buck65

Andy
not a fitness expert but I'll throw in my 2 cents.
I Reckon you should join a martial arts club sooner rather than later, physical fitness and toning will come in time but also technique is very important and for someone like yourself you have alot to learn technique wise before competing. I started Taekwondo at the age of 31 and am only starting to compete (novice level) after a year and a half of training.
Supplementary to my 2 TKD classes a week I lift weights twice a week (concentrating on speed and reps rather than weight) and run a few miles another night.
Be it BJJ or whatever your into its more fun to train hard with a good group and a good instructor - fitness will come.

Dragan

I don't want this to come across as flippant, because it will be such a short post, but at the moment, with no real aim other than to be "healtier" if you would, I would suggest the Paleo Diet for your dietary protocol, and Crossfit for your workouts.

You can find information on Paleo here, http://www.paleodiet.com/

And information on Crossfit here, www.crossfit.com

If you do not think that either of these will suit you then please just post back and we can hammer something out.

spiral

Dragan or Fianna or anyone else where is the best place to learn Olympic lifts or which ones are best to start off with ?

FiannaGym.com

What Dragan said. haha

Seriously crossfit and paleo.

But if your ultimate goal is to compete in MMA doing MMA would be a good idea. Also it CAN be a competitive enviornment which may motivate you to stay away from smoking and drinking etc.

It's a lifestyle change so stick with it, focus on the goal always.

Peace

Dragan

spiral wrote:

Dragan or Fianna or anyone else where is the best place to learn Olympic lifts or which ones are best to start off with ?

To be honest, the best way to learn Oly lifts are from either an experienced trainer or coach, and I don't know that many places in this country that cover them on a "casual" basis. I do Oly lifts regularly….i don't really care what your program is, or your goals, if you not doing some form of the Olympic lifts then you are cutting yourself short.

There are a lot of good resources on the net for Oly lifting training, and you would do worse than to buy some of the training hall films from Iron Mind, or even youtube clips like the below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVB_rQFSsEg

The main thing about Oly lifts is that you start small and work on the basics. Find a good article that breaks down each of the lifts and show you how to work on each part of them. I imagine that there would be some trainers in Hercs gym who would be doing some good Oly lifts, but it is not something you see down the local gym unfortunately!

Millionaire

Would Crossfit not be too demanding for him as a begineer?

Like on Crossfit, todays work out includes 20 pull ups! I am in decent shape, and I can only do a few pull ups.

For example would be not be better taking in more easy, and building up to a 30 min run on the thread mill (for example).

And of course, if MMA is the goal, start MMA.

Dragan

Millionaire wrote:

Would Crossfit not be too demanding for him as a begineer?

The whole point of x-fit is that you tailor it to your own level, but always keep it hard enough to test yourself. Eventually, you are doing the WOD's as recommended.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Millionaire wrote:

Like on Crossfit, todays work out includes 20 pull ups! I am in decent shape, and I can only do a few pull ups.

I'd imagine there's very few people here on this forum who could do 20 pull-ups so I would'nt sweat that one.

OP I'd recommend just starting by just getting to know your body and what it likes to do first, ie join an M.A. club and your coaches will build the foundation from which you can work from.

If your interested in olympic lifts and your in Dublin I'd recommend you look up Hercules gym in Lurgan Street, they also have a competative wrestling club there too.

spiral

Have you a website for the gym or wrestling club I cant find anything on the web ?

Colm_OReilly

Is it not somewhere on the crossfit website that says the needs of average joes and athletes are the same, only the intensities differ?

Explosive Lifting for Sports is a good reference on Olympic Lifts - the sexiest of all lifts.

I don't think Herc's have a website, and tbh they didn't come across as the friendliest place to lift when I went down. Perhaps they'd never seen such a small man?

spiral

Cheers Dragan and Colm

arybvtcw0eolkf

spiral wrote:

Cheers Dragan and Colm

The rest of us would like to say 'your welcome'.

gymrabbit

Hi Andy,

I presume you're still training in Kokoro twice a week, if not you should get back training, if not there, then somewhere else.
I know you're looking for some very specific advice, someone to do you a diet plan and a work out program so you can just follow that. I don't think that kind of advice is going to come (at least not for free) and you don't need it.
Common sense would tell you to stop eating crap food. I presume you know what crap food is, if you don't, go to the fitness forum on this website and read the stickies. In short, reduce all sugary, fatty, junk, take away, processed and convience food from your diet. The intensity of your diet is up to you. A rule of thumb I live by is plenty of good meat (steaks, chicken breasts, pork chops) fresh vegetables (broccolli, cauliflower, carrots) and fruit (bananas, kiwi, apples, oranges). Everyone is different and you can tailor the above guidelines to your own personal preferences. I recommend you cut out eating pasta, potatoes, bread and alcohol. Again, the intensity of this cut is up to yourself.
In terms of exercise in combination wtih the at least twice a week martial art classes you'd benefit from a couple of 30/40 minute runs around the block/field. They may not give you the type of conditioning MMA competition requires but they'll burn the fat belly off you. Give this two weeks, three weeks, perhaps up to christmas time and if you think it's working and want to take it to another level, add in the crossfit exercises (or add them in from the start). I think 99% of athletes benefit from a resistance program and if you're going to a gym anyway, you'll find no harm doing a session or two of weights. You can focus on the "big three", bench pressing, deadlifts and squats. These won't make you a super big body builder but they're relatively simple (compared to olympic lifts) but effective way of increasing your muscle mass and power.
If I've given terrible advice in any of the above, please point that out, to myself and to Andy.

spiral

Mairt sorry no offence intended cheers

Roper

Spiral, don't you train in SBG Rathcoole? JK is a weightlifting coach AFAIK

spiral

Ok thanks Roper.

john kavanagh

Roper wrote:

Spiral, don't you train in SBG Rathcoole? JK is a weightlifting coach AFAIK

indeed he is we have a training platform (donated by The Shane) for helping beginners get the technique. i would recommend hercs over myself as thats what they are experts in but i would be more than happy to help you too

Roper

OP,

I just think you should get in and do it. The best training to prepare for MMA is MMA. If I'm picking you up right it sounds as though you want to get a bit fitter so that you can go and train in MMA. Thats a bit faulty, as what you'll be doing is training to go training.

If you go to a gym and train alongside guys who'll be training for the same goals then you might lag for a few weeks and feel like you're not keeping up but you'll soon be in better shape. The best few months of anyones training is the first few as they see immediate and noticable improvements.

As an aside, one of the lads who trains with us came to us at a whopping 115kgs, having been in a similar situation to yourself- a former sporty type who'd just got out of the habit for a few years, 6 months later he was 90kgs and trim and cardio wise, fitter than some of the lads who were pissing on him months before. He just ate better and trained, but his previous fitness stood to him. So if you're feeling ****e, just remember that its easier for you to get to where you were 4 years ago than it is for some poor git who's starting from scratch.

I've been Roper, you've all been wonderful...

celt2005

Olympic Lifting in Dublin CC woulds be at Hercules Weightlifting Gym, Tommy Haydn is main man down there , maybe ask him for some lessons.


Used to be a guy called Justin Roche, he was highest qualified Olympic Lifting coach in Country ( Canadian Association Level 3 OL Coach) , but I think he has moved to US to work.

Full Olympic set in Track / Gym in Ringsend, but think you need to be a member of Crusaders AC to use them !!!!


Impossible to give you point by point how to lift , but short explosive training sessions , 15-30 mins are norm, with slow increases and 3-5 reps before breaks (2-3 mins)

spiral

John great I will ask you for a few pointers !!

Millionaire

Roper wrote:

OP,

I just think you should get in and do it. The best training to prepare for MMA is MMA. If I'm picking you up right it sounds as though you want to get a bit fitter so that you can go and train in MMA. Thats a bit faulty, as what you'll be doing is training to go training.

I agree 100% with Barry/Roper on the OP.

Andy is just starting back to his training after a few years, so he sounds a bit out of shape.

If he wants to do MMA...well do that...start MMA. I know for a fact the training and the warm up itselfs, will help you loose the weight and get fitter if you train a few times a week, regular and consistant. Do not eat crap, eat good, as gymrabbit says, and if you get in a few runs/cardio a week...all the better...you are well on your way.

No disrespect to the guys who train olympic lifts, but this would be very confusing to a beginner (its even confusing to me!), and unless he at some stage is going to compete at a high level, there probably is not much need to do this. Just do your MMA, and train that hard, and some extra cardio is a bonus.

Years back in a Men Health interview... about Chris Eubanks when he was World Champ Boxer, they asked him if he lifted weights... his answer was, that he is a professional boxer, and he trains doing...BOXING!!! plus push ups, sit ups and running. no weights for him.

I train now in Sityodthong camp, which has had many top Muay Thai champions, and also has some top thai pro western boxers too...and there is not as much as a set of dumbells in the camp. These guys run, punch, kick, knee, elbow...daily. They train doing what will help them to win fighting.

Plus Andy if you have been training down in KoKoro with Shane.... I trained down there this time last year.... and as well as MMA, you will get plenty of push ups and sit ups etc...that will get you right into shape.

Now I certaintly am not running down weight training at all, and it has its place in MA, but for a begineer it may not just be the right time, if we wants to learn an MA.

Dragan

Millionaire wrote:

No disrespect to the guys who train olympic lifts, but this would be very confusing to a begineer (its even confusing to me!), and unless he at some stage is going to compete at a high level, there probably is not much need to do this. Just do your MMA, and train that hard, and some extra cardio is a bonus.

Indeed they are. But just because something is difficult does not mean it is not worthwhile.

I imagine that MMA is not something that can just be walked into, lots of cross training, lots of technique orientated training……..so you can basically use the argument to null and void the Oly lifting on MMA as well.

I would simple say to train MMA as your primary, if that is where your personal goals and desires lie! If you manage to fit in some gym time while doing so, then don't waste it on bicep curls.

john kavanagh

funny thing, the more i'm beginning to understand the mechanics behind the clean and snatch the more i see the same structure in MMA. in fact i'd go so far as to say if you understand oly lifts you'll pick up grappling a lot faster than the average guy

also lifting will keep your body healthy and keep injuries at bay

FiannaGym.com

Its all hips.


Peace

Dragan

FiannaGym.com wrote:

Its all hips.


Peace

MMA……lifting……dancing…….adult situations……

All the good stuff is all about the hips.

john kavanagh

'whatever question you have about jiu jitsu, the answer is in your ass' - haueter

yes 'hips' is the magic 8-ball answer to all your comat athletic questions....but if i may add one thing it would be

'move your hips...and be mindful of your posture' - JK 2006

madra rua

'move your hips...and be mindful of your posture' - JK 2006

Yeah and remember "the hips don't lie" - Shakira 2006

john kavanagh

wow got a new screen name just to make that comment lol

gymrabbit

What's the craic with Hercules. Is it like a secret handshake masonic club or what? I'm a bit reluctant to walk in off the street and just have ago but I don't want to like hurt myself. Can you get lessons on Oly lifts? I've no idea how the club works? Do I need to get a referral. Don't get me wrong I usually have no problem trying out new clubs/gyms with different coaches/styles but something about hercules is off putting. Should I just drop in and see how it goes?

arybvtcw0eolkf

gymrabbit wrote:

What's the craic with Hercules. Is it like a secret handshake masonic club or what? I'm a bit reluctant to walk in off the street and just have ago but I don't want to like hurt myself. Can you get lessons on Oly lifts? I've no idea how the club works? Do I need to get a referral. Don't get me wrong I usually have no problem trying out new clubs/gyms with different coaches/styles but something about hercules is off putting. Should I just drop in and see how it goes?

Herc's is cool. I've trained there myself over the year's. Its a very old gym, and set in their ways somewhat, at least a few year's ago they were.

For the life of me I can't remember the more prominent members down there, but I do remember them having a committee, and you did what the committee said!.

I went to some of their regional weight lifting competitions, which were brilliant craic. I thought I was doing well at the time benching +/- 180kgs @ 115kgs bodyweight, Squats & DL's were +/- 210kgs, but I was in the 'ha penny place compared to the lads down there.

Like I said, its got a competative wrestling club going on and it is primarily a wrestling/weight lifting gym so its got benefits for everyone here I guess.

Millionaire

my window cleaner back in dublin is a long time member, and lifts trains there a few nights a week, he always wanted to bring me down...

as far as I remember, he said you could train there, once a member introduced you in.

celt2005

I remember at ROT 2 , some English fighter was announced with " Olympic Lifter" , was looking forward to seeing him, as I assumed he would be explosively powerful .... he was not.Think he was a guy who thinks he Olympic lifts, just because he performs motion similar to O. Lifting.

I agree with JK on this, Olympic lifting will develop both Nueral / Neuromuscular system, building both your speed and power, and can be adapted to any contact sport, Dr. Liam Hennessy (High Performance Director IRFU) stated Olympic lifting should be the cornerstone of Irish Rugby going forward.

Would be interesting to see development of MMA athlete trained with O. Lifting techniques.

john kavanagh

celt2005 wrote:

Would be interesting to see development of MMA athlete trained with O. Lifting techniques.

just look at any high level MMA athlete, they all use it!

arybvtcw0eolkf

celt2005 wrote:

Would be interesting to see development of MMA athlete trained with O. Lifting techniques.

It wouldn't be very productive as olympic lifts are a 1 Rep Max, and all their techniques are gear's towards that, recruiting the slow twitch muscle fiber.

Although this is splitting hairs, the MMA athlete weight training requirements differ in so far as he/she is looking to recruit their fast twitch muscle fiber with high reps and explosive lifts.

However having said that the exercise's remain the same, ie the big three (Bench, Squat & Deadlift) plus other 'olympic' lifts such as cleans etc.

john kavanagh

there are only 2 olympic lifts

clean and jerk
snatch

neither are based around developing slow twitch fibres.

Olympic lifts train the athlete to explode and use the maximum possible force. They develop a high Rate of Force (RF), a key point in sports training. Olympic lifters train fast twitch muscle fibers, the fibers that are employed to give you speed, explosiveness and power. It has been shown that the percentage of fast twitch fibers in the body directly contributes to the vertical jump; the more fast twitch fibers you have the higher you are able to jump (3), and this is the best indicator for athletic ability in American football players (4). The jumping and running abilities of Olympic lifters were documented in the Mexico City Olympic Games where they out ran and out jumped the jumpers and sprinters in the vertical jump and 25m sprint! This is an amazing feat considering these men do not train specifically for jumping or running.

article

arybvtcw0eolkf

john kavanagh wrote:

there are only 2 olympic lifts

clean and jerk
snatch

neither are based around developing slow twitch fibres.



article

Thanks for that correction.

But I'm not getting you then. Top level MMA fighters train on olympic lifts solely (as their weight training ragime) for a one rep max or they supplement their weight training with olympic lifts with high reps?.

I'm not trying to debate an issue, I'm genuinely interested in this.

spiral

Some intersting info here

http://www.qwa.org/articles/content.asp


http://tomgorman.moonfruit.com/trythisforolifts/4511478345

john kavanagh

Mairt wrote:

But I'm not getting you then. Top level MMA fighters train on olympic lifts solely (as their weight training ragime) for a one rep max or they supplement their weight training with olympic lifts with high reps?.

it would depend on what phase they are in their training. most fighters periodize there training. so depending on if they're 12 weeks out, 8 weeks out or 4 weeks they'll have different lifting programs.

Valmont

john kavanagh wrote:

there are only 2 olympic lifts

clean and jerk
snatch

neither are based around developing slow twitch fibres.

So ideally for MMA/Bjj should i just ditch the bench press/bicep curl type of lifts and just do these two?

john kavanagh

Valmont wrote:

So ideally for MMA/Bjj should i just ditch the bench press/bicep curl type of lifts and just do these two?

well that's up to you!

i'd recommend you educate yourself on the topic if you are serious about it. there's a lot of conflicting information out there but you won't go far wrong with the crossfit.com guys

Dragan

With regards to the "why Oly lift" for MMA fighters everything is a bit more comlplicated!!!

An Olympic lifter needs to walk up the platform and lift. That is all he needs to do. He needs to explode for those few seconds. He will be fresh, he will have trained solely for that action and it will be all he needs to do. An MMA fighter may need to call into play a similar explosion of power but will need to do so on a split seconds notice, possibly 14mins into a 15 minute fight after being involved in war. He will be tired, he will be weary and he will not see it coming. He cannot peak for that one split second because he will need to fight on afterwards.

Look at the Rich Franklin Vs David Lousieaux fight. I believe Frankling took him down, was passing, The Crow rolled, Franklin went for the back, the Crow escaped, went to stand and trun and Bang….suplex. That’s just the way it is….as such, not only do you need a solid neuro muscular connection to be able to call up that explosive power, you need to be able to do this went your muscle are already fatigued!

In short, you gotta train for everything!

If you look carefully at the Crossfit WODS you cover everything, from muscular endurance, to explosive power, to needing both on the same day. Thats why i agree with JK, that for the beginner especially, it is a great protocol.