Fantasy meets Reality...

john kavanagh

Fantasy...

meets Reality

i will say i respect his honesty. he must have believed in what he did because he 'put it on the line' and tested it. ok it turned out to be complete nonsense but at least he now knows, and more importantly at least his students know. he could've hid behind the 'too deadly to test' line but instead gave it a go.

Dragan

He looked very suprised when that first punch hit him.

I guess when your art is based around people not hitting you it upsets a pressure test?

spiral

No respect for the elderly anymore

gymrabbit

that was embarrassing to watch.

Valmont

I used to laugh when I watched this sort thing before but now it just makes me feel really awful for that oul lad.

He has obviously dedicated a long time to his 'art', and to see his delusions crushed right before him by a young chap with a few punches is disheartening to say the least.

But as John said, respect to him because he actually stepped up to prove it unlike a lot of other guys.

I'd say all of his students in the first clip felt pretty stupid afterwards, huh?:p

Dyr

WHat i dont get why didnt he step up and test this with someone before he went out in front of the cameras

funny that the blurb says he a daito ryu practitioner, Most of them seem to avoid publicity like the plague and the funky uniform is a bit sus too..

buck65

yeah but that karate guy wouldnt last on the street, his pants are too short, and he didn't go to ground
NEXT

john kavanagh

another example

Fantasy meets Reality

gymrabbit

buck65 wrote:

yeah but that karate guy wouldnt last on the street, his pants are too short, and he didn't go to ground
NEXT

you obviously don't get what people are trying to explain.

kenpo_dave

gymrabbit wrote:

you obviously don't get what people are trying to explain.

Absolutely, theres no way to tell how the Karate guy trains. Its clear these people dont know what Kiai are about (IMO Kiai are simply the agressive noise that most animals make when they attack. Ive heard alot of Muay Thai people on video clips doing Kiai).
Thanks for the amusement John

john kavanagh

kenpo_dave wrote:

Thanks for the amusement John

personally i find it sad and frightening

sad because its pathetic just how much self-delusion something like that type of 'training' requires

frightening because its the 21st century and people can still believe in such nonsense, what else can they be brain washed into believing?

are we really out of the dark ages? there was no 'enlightenment', just a slight brightening

gymrabbit

Faith is a very powerful thing.

Millionaire

The Old Guy had a red belt must be 8th Dan upwards...

maybe too many years, standing at top of dojo, playing grandmater sensi, instead of doing his own training.

I went into a kickboxing club, was based in temple bar upstairs in a gym which is not there no more.... seemed like everyone from purple belt up(approx 2 years training maybe) , was strutting around acting the Big Fella Sensi and not training themselves... I went in and trained and said nothing about my own experience, and had to stifle an odd laugh, with all the Bruce Lee's marching about. Pure Bollox, and an embarrasment to Kickboxing.

Colm_OReilly

Did anyone read the comments on youtube underneath the reality part. One guy is giving out stink because nopants wasn't wearing any gi pants and you shouldn't shake hands with a master because then you don't know who the master is.

As for enlightenment, I was reading an article a while ago about the scientific community (Science be praised!) how a growing number of physicists are saying now that string theory was the wrong way to go, but still a large number of physicians are trying to create extra dimensions, come up with new theories and laws of the universe to make this theory work. (Science be damned!)

Perhaps the only way to stay completely open minded is to watch South Park?

Colm

Dermot Nolan

Colm_OReilly wrote:

As for enlightenment, I was reading an article a while ago about the scientific community (Science be praised!) how a growing number of physicists are saying now that string theory was the wrong way to go, but still a large number of physicians are trying to create extra dimensions, come up with new theories and laws of the universe to make this theory work. (Science be damned!)

Did Edward Witten(i think) not prove the fundamentals of string theory with a new theory called M-theory? It proved something like; the equations that string theorists couldn't balance were all different limits of the same equation.

Im not pretending to know much about these theories but maybe the physicists you're talking about shouldn't be dismissing it but progressing on the sound principles that do work. Much like the science of fighting. Although my point isn't valid in relation to these videos - all of this should be dismissed:D

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Perhaps the only way to stay completely open minded is to watch South Park?

Colm

Definitely more fun than reading articles on string theory:)

mark.leonard

Love this thread!

BobbyOLeary

Colm_OReilly wrote:

As for enlightenment, I was reading an article a while ago about the scientific community (Science be praised!) how a growing number of physicists are saying now that string theory was the wrong way to go, but still a large number of physicians are trying to create extra dimensions, come up with new theories and laws of the universe to make this theory work. (Science be damned!)

Wow, I never had you pegged Colm as a man who'd have any interest in high-end physics! I see where you're coming from but I don't really agree. To use another analogy, look at the world is round argument. The nicest, most simple theory is that the world is flat as it looks that way, though we now know the more complicated view that the world is round and slightly bulged at the equator is slightly more correct!

What I'm saying is that sometimes it may look like something is becoming endlessly complicated in order to work it may not be wrong, it may just need that level of specificity in order to work. Example, I feel BJJ is incredibly complicated, specific positions of hands, feet, arms, weight distribution, all while the other person is trying to do the same to you. Thats probably experience though.

That said, the stuff in the videos is terrible!

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Perhaps the only way to stay completely open minded is to watch South Park?

I'm more of a Family Guy man myself:)

Bobby

Millionaire

Thats 1st slip is no different to to one showing the Kung Fu guys (Drunken Monkey I think is the style) Versus the Karate Kyoshinkai Guys from Japan.

The Karate guys kicked the crap out of every single one of the Kung Fu guys.

I sort of felt sorry for the kung fu lads and the Master etc, as this was shown on live TV in Japan or somewhere.

Makes me wonder, why these guys cannot take in the effectiveness and see where there own style is lacking in very simple concepts such as, hands up to protect head, hard low round kick to legs, right cross punch etc etc...

crokester

Colm_OReilly wrote:

Did anyone read the comments on youtube underneath the reality part. One guy is giving out stink because nopants wasn't wearing any gi pants and you shouldn't shake hands with a master because then you don't know who the master is.

As for enlightenment, I was reading an article a while ago about the scientific community (Science be praised!) how a growing number of physicists are saying now that string theory was the wrong way to go, but still a large number of physicians are trying to create extra dimensions, come up with new theories and laws of the universe to make this theory work. (Science be damned!)

Perhaps the only way to stay completely open minded is to watch South Park?

Colm

Its very much the same with the big bang theory. It has so much disconfirming evidence against it in the last few years so the theory has been modified beyond any realm of reality to account for it. Youl find that with just about any scientific paradigm as its about to become replaced by higher understanding. As for the videos i agree with gymrabit, faith is strong, many of us still believe in a higher power that we alone have created through our shortcomings as human beings.

FiannaGym.com

No Kenpo Dave, a "Kiai" refers specifically to a breath relating to "Ki" energy. It is absolutely not just a noise.

Thai boxers do exhale rapidly and make noise when they throw stuff and thats great and for some people they may consider it linked with "Ki" but that is not what the breath is for.

ANyway, from my first hand, impartial experience I've seen this form of energy be used, not in anyway that would affect the out come of a fight, but its still there.

With out going into a huge debate on this my perspective is this...
Truth referential, built up by a complex web. What is this complex web? It's culture. Some cultures (as I'm sure I have said before) don't have the same numerical system we do and as such "physics" equations and mathmatical "laws" are absurd in those societies. Can science explain things that happen in those cultures? Of course, just like their beleif system can explain things in ours.
Truth as anyone sees it will be developed from whatever elements of this complex web they come in contact with. So for all of us we have a generally similar opinion on truths, as me move from symbolic order to symbolic order truth changes dramatically.
Often times "thruth" and the beleif system we use are all contradictory, on the surface. In reality its just one big uncontradictory web of contradition. What I mean is (and I use this example all the time) most people here will argue logically using scientific evidence. For most people in the west this is fine, listen to Pat Kenny. Anyway these two systems or completely contradictory... Science by its very nature is illogical reasoning.

If you bothered reading all that, sorry.

Peace

crokester

FiannaGym.com wrote:

No Kenpo Dave, a "Kiai" refers specifically to a breath relating to "Ki" energy. It is absolutely not just a noise.

Thai boxers do exhale rapidly and make noise when they throw stuff and thats great and for some people they may consider it linked with "Ki" but that is not what the breath is for.

ANyway, from my first hand, impartial experience I've seen this form of energy be used, not in anyway that would affect the out come of a fight, but its still there.

With out going into a huge debate on this my perspective is this...
Truth referential, built up by a complex web. What is this complex web? It's culture. Some cultures (as I'm sure I have said before) don't have the same numerical system we do and as such "physics" equations and mathmatical "laws" are absurd in those societies. Can science explain things that happen in those cultures? Of course, just like their beleif system can explain things in ours.
Truth as anyone sees it will be developed from whatever elements of this complex web they come in contact with. So for all of us we have a generally similar opinion on truths, as me move from symbolic order to symbolic order truth changes dramatically.
Often times "thruth" and the beleif system we use are all contradictory, on the surface. In reality its just one big uncontradictory web of contradition. What I mean is (and I use this example all the time) most people here will argue logically using scientific evidence. For most people in the west this is fine, listen to Pat Kenny. Anyway these two systems or completely contradictory... Science by its very nature is illogical reasoning.

If you bothered reading all that, sorry.

Peace

Hi Fianna
I dont believe truth is subjective. I do believe it is multi-faceted however. I dont know if your taking a culturally relativist position here or simply pointing out the fact that what we understand as truth is diffferent across cultures. Truth as such is independent of subjective interpretations. As proven by MMA!

yomchi

john kavanagh wrote:

another example

Fantasy meets Reality

LOL even the dog gets some action :rolleyes:

astfgl

Found this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk
(Listen to his reason to why it doesn't work on the BJJ guys)

yomchi

crokester wrote:

Hi Fianna
I dont believe truth is subjective. I do believe it is multi-faceted however. I dont know if your taking a culturally relativist position here or simply pointing out the fact that what we understand as truth is diffferent across cultures. Truth as such is independent of subjective interpretations. As proven by MMA!

Truth is what you believe it to be IMO

droc

Maybe it's cuz the Karate guy pointed 1 toe up and the other down ... he totally cheated!

George Dillman's my hero

john kavanagh

Jon wrote:

Truth is what you believe it to be IMO

so if one believes in santa, toothfairy, Flying Spaghetti Monster, God etc then they become the 'Truth'?

yomchi

john kavanagh wrote:

so if one believes in santa, toothfairy, Flying Spaghetti Monster, God etc then they become the 'Truth'?

They become truth to that person. Ever see the kid that believes in santa..and another kid is telling him he doesn't exist. The kid that believes he does will defend his beliefs to the end.."he does exist I know he does!". He does this because he believes it to be truth.

In fact using God as an example would have been better!!

The Bored One

Jon wrote:

They become truth to that person. Ever see the kid that believes in santa..and another kid is telling him he doesn't exist. The kid that believes he does will defend his beliefs to the end.."he does exist I know he does!". He does this because he believes it to be truth.

In fact using God as an example would have been better!!

Thats their interpretation of reality though, that doesn't make it reality itself.
A thing either exists or it doesn't. Belief in that existence or emotion about it, will not alter the basic facts of its existence.
So when it comes to an issue like the existence of God, there's only really two accurate answers you can give.
Either I don't know, or I don't care.

pma-ire

astfgl wrote:

Found this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ar1yXYOsxQk
(Listen to his reason to why it doesn't work on the BJJ guys)

:rolleyes:

buck65

Back to my " he wouldnt last on the street comment..."
Lads I was joking!
He looks like a hardy boy to me
Still though that poor oul fella what a loon !!
Surely he knew he was ****?
That clip in the dojo where the guys all roll around when he points at them is a bit of well orchestrated choreography!!
Surely Aikido is better where the guy rolls with the punches . Saw a documentary on Steven Seagal last week - despite his fantastic fashion and hairstyle- it was quite interesting 7th dan Aikido Master lived in Japan for a long time but from what Ive seen of Aikido (not alot) you would have to be very well trained in it to make it work what do ye think ?
PS Seagals movies are fairly dodgy I'm not a fan

yomchi

Thats their interpretation of reality though, that doesn't make it reality itself

Interpretation of reality, is what makes reality exist. Everything in the world exists through interpretation and everybody interpreation is different. Thats why we live in such a diverse reality.

Define reality, and I guarantee you someone will tell you, you are wrong.

A thing either exists or it doesn't. Belief in that existence or emotion about it, will not alter the basic facts of its existence

Valid point and I agree, but beliefs will always out weigh reality. Its human nature.

So when it comes to an issue like the existence of God, there's only really two accurate answers you can give.
Either I don't know, or I don't care

This is from your point of view of course. There are many answers to this question that have been baffling man since man became conscious of something else out there.

The Bored One

Jon wrote:

Interpretation of reality, is what makes reality exist. Everything in the world exists through interpretation and everybody interpreation is different. Thats why we live in such a diverse reality.

Define reality, and I guarantee you someone will tell you, you are wrong.

Definition requires interpretation, and since we're talking about reality, that renders the definition null and void as reality exists independant of our interpretations. More definitions you create, further you get from reality.

Valid point and I agree, but beliefs will always out weigh reality. Its human nature.

No arguement there, its what we do.

This is from your point of view of course. There are many answers to this question that have been baffling man since man became conscious of something else out there.

Or became conscious of our desire for their to be something else. There are many answers and interpetations, but they are just that, interpretations. The very concept of God in itself is concerned with something more than us or beyond our understanding.
So since we cannot prove either way God's existence, we can only prvoide two honest answers.
I don't know if God exists
or
I don't care if God exists.
After that all there is is theory.

Roper

Wow, okay, two things.

Firstly, from a philosophical point of view, reality is subjective... in the classroom. But even when you take it to its nth degree, there is at least an agreed reality, one in which there is gravity, the sun, the moon, day, night, cold weather and hot tea. So by mapping a cultural theory on to what is essentially a law of the universe, I think we take things too far. Man cannot knock another man down with his brain, Kiai, Chi or other in this agreed reality, and like it or not, there is no there reality but this one we exist in now. (for us at least) Therefore we just have to concentrate on what we see, hear, feel and know in the most empirical way we can.

Secondly, on the video. I like the way people go "ha ha ha I would never be that stupid and believe in no touch knockouts etc." I say there but for the grace of God go I. Influences are funny things and many of the guys here on this board have come from some ropey backgrounds MA wise. I used to believe in silly wristlocks. I'll give you an example of what I mean.
When I roll with John Kav, I expect to be tapped out, when that is I don't know but I will be tapped by him. Why? Because he's better at BJJ than me, he knows more about BJJ than me etc. etc. So before we roll I'm expecting to tap, so I'm immediately on the defensive. Now theres a huge leap between that frame of mind, and "I will be knocked out before he touches me", but the line of thought is traceable. The difference is of course in your upbringing etc. But maybe its also as simple as when you were looking for training, did you walk into the boxing club, or did you walk into the no touch aiki-jutsu club. Because maybe, just maybe, one of the guys in the video could have been you had you made a different decision.

yomchi

More definitions you create, further you get from reality.

Again, define reality.. maybe its closer you get.

Or became conscious of our desire for their to be something else. There are many answers and interpetations, but they are just that, interpretations. The very concept of God in itself is concerned with something more than us or beyond our understanding.
So since we cannot prove either way God's existence, we can only prvoide two honest answers.
I don't know if God exists
or
I don't care if God exists.
After that all there is is theory.

Those that are bound by desire, see only what they have in their hand.

There are many answers and interpetations, but they are just that, interpretations

Exactly, and these interpretations define what we believe to be true.

The very concept of God in itself is concerned with something more than us or beyond our understanding.

good point, but 'God' as an entity or 'being' or 'whatever' is a concept of man, therefore very much within our realms of understanding.

So since we cannot prove either way God's existence, we can only prvoide two honest answers.
I don't know if God exists
or
I don't care if God exists.
After that all there is is theory

Again this is subjective. There are people who have 'proof' that 'God' exists, and will die to protect that proof as truth.
The idea that 'i dont know if God exists' or I don't care' is too based on theory relevant to that persons beliefs.

Where's martial man when you need him

john kavanagh

Jon wrote:

They become truth to that person.

ah, i get your point now

Jon wrote:

Valid point and I agree, but beliefs will always out weigh reality. Its human nature.

good point

The Bored One wrote:

Or became conscious of our desire for their to be something else.

and that desire is strong!



"only sheep need a shepherd"

john kavanagh

Jon wrote:

They become truth to that person.

ah, i get your point now

Jon wrote:

Valid point and I agree, but beliefs will always out weigh reality. Its human nature.

good point

The Bored One wrote:

Or became conscious of our desire for their to be something else.

and that desire is strong!



"only sheep need a shepherd"

yomchi

But even when you take it to its nth degree, there is at least an agreed reality

Absolutely, I call it existance!

Man cannot knock another man down with his brain,

Have you ever stuck a loaf on anyone?..works for me . All jokes aside, I disagree, the brain and to follow on from that the mind is a very powerful thing. Infact the video that John posted shows a man knocking down his students with his thoughts... now we all know thats its BS, but for some reason the students fell over.. why is that? They made a conscious decision to fall down..again why?

yomchi

Speaking of desire, I have to take a piss...

arybvtcw0eolkf

Jon wrote:

Speaking of desire, I have to take a piss...

Admit it, you were taking the piss all the time?...

The Bored One

Jon wrote:

Again, define reality.. maybe its closer you get.

Heh you missed my point. Reality cannot be defined. Its there. Any definition of mine will automatically be invalid. The only possible definitions of reality are instinctive reactions to it, an absract definition of reality is by nature false since it is an abstract.
So reality can be experienced, not defined.

Those that are bound by desire, see only what they have in their hand.

Are you making some statement with regards how Im too focused on my own beliefs etc? Cause that one always works both ways.

Exactly, and these interpretations define what we believe to be true.

Definitions and beliefs do not equal truth though. We still have to accept that our beliefs and actual existence could be way off. Hence why I use those two answers, because they are incapable of being wrong.
There is a God, tries to impose a specific reality over everything, whether its correct or not.
There is no God, does the same.
Wheareas I don't know remains purely personal. Same for I don't care.

See, I do believe that a such things as personal reality exists, but only within the area of the personality, it can't be imposed over the true reality.
So a person wanting or not wanting the existence of groovy, thats within their personal reality.
Imposing that wish by declaring that there is/isn't doesn't work though, it doesn;t alter the true reality, and can often cause problems when a person is forced to confront the differences between whats there and what they want to be there.

Like a TKD guy fighting a BJJ guy for the first time

astfgl

Roper wrote:

Firstly, from a philosophical point of view, reality is subjective.

Reality is not subjective, it just is, all that's subjective is your perception of it.

Roper wrote:

Because maybe, just maybe, one of the guys in the video could have been you had you made a different decision.

Ahh, but I didn't make that decision so do I still get to laugh at them:D ?

The Bored One

Jon wrote:

Where's martial man when you need him

If you really want, I can re-translate it all into martial man speak
Heh, sorry if my tone seems a bit narky or whatever, I at work in Eircom right now

Khannie

Valmont wrote:

But as John said, respect to him because he actually stepped up to prove it unlike a lot of other guys.

Absolutely. Very sad, but respect to him. He took a proper beating, but at least he put in on the line for himself and others to see.

That yellow bamboo thing is laugh out loud funny. Never heard of it before.

yomchi

Heh you missed my point. Reality cannot be defined. Its there. Any definition of mine will automatically be invalid

Invalid? why?

The only possible definitions of reality are instinctive reactions to it, an absract definition of reality is by nature false since it is an abstract

Again, abstract by somebodies defintion.

So reality can be experienced, not defined

Everybody has there own definition of reality. Anything that can be experienced exists, therefore it can be defined, but defined subjectively. Would you agree?

Are you making some statement with regards how Im too focused on my own beliefs etc? Cause that one always works both ways.

Absolutely not my man. I wouldn't make such assumptions. Interesting how you say you are too focused on your own beliefs, always a good thing!
And of course it works both ways, its relevant to everyone.

Definitions and beliefs do not equal truth though.

No, definitions equal beliefs. Beliefs then create truth, subjectively.

Hence why I use those two answers, because they are incapable of being wrong.
There is a God, tries to impose a specific reality over everything, whether its correct or not.
There is no God, does the same.
Wheareas I don't know remains purely personal. Same for I don't care

I wouldn't entirely agree, nothing is incapable of being wrong. Every answer you give will create a reactive answer, of course one of them answers could be.. you are wrong. Example, you are wrong not to care..of course there is a God, which draws you into explaining your reasons for your thinking, which creates debate, there is right and wrong on both sides.

See, I do believe that a such things as personal reality exists, but only within the area of the personality, it can't be imposed over the true reality.

Again, what is true reality? Who or what has set the boundaries of it, where does it start and where does it end? True reality only exists in one's beliefs.

Roper

astfgl wrote:

Reality is not subjective, it just is, all that's subjective is your perception of it.

Ah but if its your perception, then how do you know what is and what isn't.
We could go on all day...:D Thats why we should root this argument in our agreed reality, which is this one right here. The INTERNET ZONE!:D

yomchi

The Bored One wrote:

Heh, sorry if my tone seems a bit narky or whatever, I at work in Eircom right now

LOL, a valid reason to be narky, BTW my broad band is slow today!

We could spend hours going round in circles here, what you believe and what I believe are obviously close but sepreated by our own beliefs..

meh, debate is good!

yomchi

Roper wrote:

Ah but if its your perception, then how do you know what is and what isn't.
We could go on all day...:D Thats why we should root this argument in our agreed reality, which is this one right here. The INTERNET ZONE!:D

LOL good point!..

"hey sensei.. can we leave the temple now??"

astfgl

The Bored One wrote:

So when it comes to an issue like the existence of God, there's only really two accurate answers you can give.
Either I don't know, or I don't care.

What about this:

I think we all can agree the following apply to the definition of God:
He is Infallible (ie can never be wrong)
He created Everything
He is good (Benevolent)

So God greated everything. Therefore he created evil. And since He is Infallible, He did it on purpose. But this contradicts that He is good.
This leaves you with 2 choices:
(a) God does not exist (because his definition falls apart under scrutiny)
(b) Our definition is wrong and God does exist but is bad (malevolent)

Either way why believe in Him

The Bored One

Jon wrote:

LOL, a valid reason to be narky, BTW my broad band is slow today!

We could spend hours going round in circles here, what you believe and what I believe are obviously close but sepreated by our own beliefs..

meh, debate is good!

Of course its slow, we're Eircom, MWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!

I'd say the problem here is that Im incredibly careful about beliefs. Ive had one or two friends who can't tell the difference between how they think of the world, and how the world really is, so I'm careful about not making the same mistake.

So, who wants to convert the whole debate into martial-speak?

The Bored One

astfgl wrote:

What about this:

I think we all can agree the following apply to the definition of God:
He is Infallible (ie can never be wrong)
He created Everything
He is good (Benevolent)

So God greated everything. Therefore he created evil. And since He is Infallible, He did it on purpose. But this contradicts that He is good.
This leaves you with 2 choices:
(a) God does not exist (because his definition falls apart under scrutiny)
(b) Our definition is wrong and God does exist but is bad (malevolent)

Either way why believe in Him

Heh I never went for the benovolent line.
I rather like my brothers theory. That God's chosen people, and who the universe was really desiged for, was cockroaches. He made it so easy for them. I mean if you decapitate one, it doesn't kill it! Take that Highlander! The eventual cause of death is starvation, but the body will still remain alive independent of the brain.
They even have a handy race of caretakers that build houses that roaches can live in and shield them from the cold, leave food and garbage everywhere for the roaches to feast upon, and have designed a plethora of weapons that will obliterate everything but the roaches.

yomchi

The Bored One wrote:

So, who wants to convert the whole debate into martial-speak?

I'll leave that to you!