Learner Drivers

Fratton Fred

Can someone please enlighten me as to the laws here for learner drivers.

As far as I am aware, if you are on your first provisional licence, you need to have a qualified driver in the passenger seat, but once you renew your licence, ie after your first supposed year of driving, you are free to do as you please.

Is my understanding correct?

Also, are learner drivers permitted to drive on a motorway? If not, why do I see so many on the M50 and why are none of them ever stopped by the Gardai?

If my suspicions are correct, surely this must be a major factor in the standard of diving and the number of serious accidents on the roads?

Seth Brundle

See the sticky about driving licences.
However, in answer, to your questions:
a 1st, 2nd and each 3rd provisional each last two years. By the time the second expires the learner mush have sat or booked a test before they can get a 3rd.
L Drivers are not allowed on a motorway irrespective of 1st, 2nd or 3rd. However, 2nd provisional drivers can drive unaccompanied whereas 1st and 3rd cannot.

cjt156

And none of these laws is actively enforced as to do so would cause 300,000 or so drivers off the road thereby kicking a massive hole in the economy. An Irish solution to an Irish problem.

Bluetonic

kbannon wrote:

a 1st, 2nd and each 3rd provisional each last two years. By the time the second expires the learner mush have sat or booked a test before they can get a 3rd.

Not really the case, a 3rd licence will be two years only if you've sat a test, 1 year if you've only booked and not sat a test.

You may not apply for a third provisional licence unless you can provide evidence that you have (a) undergone a driving test in the two-year period prior to the application or (b) evidence of a forthcoming test date. A two year provisional licence will be granted if you provide evidence you have undergone a driving test, and a one year provisional licence will be granted if you submit evidence of a forthcoming test date.

Gary ITR

kbannon wrote:

L Drivers are not allowed on a motorway irrespective of 1st, 2nd or 3rd.

AFAIK it's 'L' drivers that aren't allowed on a motorway, people on 2nd provisionals don't have to display 'L' plates so would that not mean they can drive on a motorway?

Stark

Fratton Fred wrote:

Also, are learner drivers permitted to drive on a motorway? If not, why do I see so many on the M50 and why are none of them ever stopped by the Gardai?

I imagine it's because it's quite dangerous to pull someone over on a motorway. People do get pulled over on the sliproads though.

Onkle51 wrote:

AFAIK it's 'L' drivers that aren't allowed on a motorway, people on 2nd provisionals don't have to display 'L' plates so would that not mean they can drive on a motorway?

Completely wrong. A second provisional is identical to a first provisional in every way bar the driving accompanied rule. That means wearing L-plates, no driving on motorways and no driving outside the Republic.

Bluetonic

Onkle51 wrote:

people on 2nd provisionals don't have to display 'L' plates

This is not the case at all. All provisional licence holders, must display L-plates to the front and rear of the vehicle they are driving at all times, regardless of how many provisional licence you've held.

Can't believe people don't know the rules of the road.

Tabnabs

Onkle51 wrote:

AFAIK it's 'L' drivers that aren't allowed on a motorway, people on 2nd provisionals don't have to display 'L' plates so would that not mean they can drive on a motorway?

Holy crap :eek: how wrong are you? Why on earth would a learner driver take their L plates down?

Tabnabs

Fratton Fred wrote:

after your first supposed year of driving, you are free to do as you please.

It's a small point, but the provisional lasts for two years, not one.

Fratton Fred

Thanks, that is what I had kind of read from the sticky, but wasn’t too sure.

Actually, I couldn’t believe it!! This means, that someone can get their first provisional at 17 and not be able to afford a car, therefore not drive at all.

They then leave school, get a job and renew their provisional (Never having sat behind the wheel of a car) and go out and buy a Golf VR6 which they are free to drive on their own.

I find this somewhat alarming.

Gary ITR

Stark wrote:

Completely wrong. A second provisional is identical to a first provisional in every way bar the driving accompanied rule. That means wearing L-plates, no driving on motorways and no driving outside the Republic.

Thats why the question mark was there!

Alun

Fratton Fred wrote:

I find this somewhat alarming.

I think everyone who arrives in Ireland from another country finds it alarming as well. In fact when I got here and noticed the surprisingly high number of unaccompanied drivers with L plates on their car I asked a few people what the story was. I have to say that when I heard what was going on, I seriously though they were taking the piss, and it wasn't until I'd heard the same thing from several independent sources that I actually believed it. I got speaking to some German tourists only last week who mentioned it as well, and I'm sure they thought I was stark raving mad too.

r3nu4l

Fratton Fred wrote:

If my suspicions are correct, surely this must be a major factor in the standard of diving and the number of serious accidents on the roads?

Okay, everyone else has addressed the other points, I'd like to address this. Before I go any further, I'm fully licensed for years now...

I don't have stats nor have I seen any but if we took the number of road accidents in one year and examined the types of licenses involved for all parties involved I imagine that there would be a higher proportion of fully licensed drivers than provisionals.

Also, if we then looked at who was deemed to be 'at fault' I also imagine that again the fully licensed numbers would be higher. I'd like to see the stats and am happy to be proven wrong but I'm sick of hearing motorists blaming 'L' drivers.

Many of the accidents in rural areas at weekends involve young people so we assume they are inexperienced yet most of the rural friends I have were driving from 17 onwards (some before that!) so by 21 or 22 they have 4 or 5 years driving experience, hardly inexperienced then. Alcohol, bad roads, poor lighting and speed are the problems and this has nothing to do with the type of license you have! Yes L-drivers can be nervous etc. but it means they are more likely to drive slowly and not race through junctions etc.

Opinions?

EDIT: OP, yes the system is crap I was one of those who had a 2nd provisional having never driven before, so legally I was allowed to drive on my own yet I couldn't drive at all :rolleyes:

Gary ITR

Bluetonic wrote:

Can't believe people don't know the rules of the road.

Never drove on a second provisional... In fact only did a few lessons on my first then passed my test so I have no real need to know rules regarding 2nd provisionals

Gary ITR

r3nu4l wrote:

Okay, everyone else has addressed the other points, I'd like to address this. Before I go any further, I'm fully licensed for years now...

I don't have stats nor have I seen any but if we took the number of road accidents in one year and examined the types of licenses involved for all parties involved I imagine that there would be a higher proportion of fully licensed drivers than provisionals.

Also, if we then looked at who was deemed to be 'at fault' I also imagine that again the fully licensed numbers would be higher. I'd like to see the stats and am happy to be proven wrong but I'm sick of hearing motorists blaming 'L' drivers.

Many of the accidents in rural areas at weekends involve young people so we assume they are inexperienced yet most of the rural friends I have were driving from 17 onwards (some before that!) so by 21 or 22 they have 4 or 5 years driving experience, hardly inexperienced then. Alcohol, bad roads, poor lighting and speed are the problems and this has nothing to do with the type of license you have! Yes L-drivers can be nervous etc. but it means they are more likely to drive slowly and not race through junctions etc.

Opinions?

EDIT: OP, yes the system is crap I was one of those who had a 2nd provisional having never driven before, so legally I was allowed to drive on my own yet I couldn't drive at all :rolleyes:

Thats an excellent point, I've seen people driving perfectly on provisionals and as soon as they pass their test they turn into arrogant, over-confident, ego-maniac style drivers

Bluetonic

Onkle51 wrote:

Never drove on a second provisional... In fact only did a few lessons on my first then passed my test so I have no real need to know rules regarding 2nd provisionals

The rules of the road aren't something which you pick and choose sections which are applicable to you and only you, you should know the complete rules of the road, regardless of whether you think they are going to applicable to you or not.

Fair enough if you didn't know that all learner divers must display L plates but there is no specific rules of the road for 2nd provisional licence holders, the rules are the same for all licence holders, the limitations change.

Fratton Fred

I just asked the question because I watched someone, who clearly could not drive and was sporting L plates, heading merrily towards to the M50 at Cherrywood this morning. Then again, having lived here for three months, nothing I see on the roads amazes me any more.

Fratton Fred

Onkle51 wrote:

Thats an excellent point, I've seen people driving perfectly on provisionals and as soon as they pass their test they turn into arrogant, over-confident, ego-maniac style drivers

Not sure what the rules are here, but if a new driver in the UK gets 6 penalty points within two years of passing their test, their licence is taken off them and they have to re-sit the exam and test before they can drive again. Helps keep the level of cockiness among new drivers under control.

peasant

well ....actually ...

The standard of driver education, driving "instructors" and the driving test itself is so piss-poor that it doesn't really make that much of a difference whether somebody has a "full" licence or not.

In that sense, all is well

Gary ITR

Fratton Fred wrote:

Not sure what the rules are here, but if a new driver in the UK gets 6 penalty points within two years of passing their test, their licence is taken off them and they have to re-sit the exam and test before they can drive again. Helps keep the level of cockiness among new drivers under control.

That's not the case here. To be honest I passed my test after 5 lessons in two weeks and had never driven above 30mph at the time, was handed my licence and the keys to a company car(1.9 TDI) and could drive straight to the M50 if I wanted

peasant

Onkle51 wrote:

That's not the case here. To be honest I passed my test after 5 lessons in two weeks and had never driven above 30mph at the time, was handed my licence and the keys to a company car(1.9 TDI) and could drive straight to the M50 if I wanted

Thanks ...that just proves my point from above

Onkle51 ...nothing personal ...I'm sure you're a good driver and all that ...but seriously ...one couldn't call that a proper driver education, could one?

Gary ITR

Thats the point I'm making, I like to think now that I am a good driver but my first year as a 'qualified' driver I was really only learning. I think it crazy that I was allowed do this

Fratton Fred

Fratton Fred wrote:

Thanks, that is what I had kind of read from the sticky, but wasn’t too sure.

Actually, I couldn’t believe it!! This means, that someone can get their first provisional at 17 and not be able to afford a car, therefore not drive at all.

They then leave school, get a job and renew their provisional (Never having sat behind the wheel of a car) and go out and buy a Golf VR6 which they are free to drive on their own.

I find this somewhat alarming.

This somewhat applies to me, I have had my provisional since February of this year, and have yet to drive as i cannot afford to. As it stands, i hope to have enough money saved up to afford to start driving at about this time next year, this means i will be on my first provisional for only 3 months before being allowed drive unnacompanied.

The law allows me to do this, so I cant see the problem. Of course, I wont be driving alone unless I reach a high enough standard of driving. And there's no hope of buying a Golf or anything powerful, more like a golf cart!

Padraig Mor

On the rare occasion I see someone use indicators correctly on a roundabout (besides myself ), it's invariably an 'L' driver. They may sometimes be slow, they might occasionally stall at the lights, but *generally speaking*, I find that they have a FAR better knowledge of the rules of the road than 'full' drivers. And no, I'm not an L driver!

Mojito

Padraig Mor wrote:

On the rare occasion I see someone use indicators correctly on a roundabout (besides myself ), it's invariably an 'L' driver. They may sometimes be slow, they might occasionally stall at the lights, but *generally speaking*, I find that they have a FAR better knowledge of the rules of the road than 'full' drivers. And no, I'm not an L driver!

Yes very true and a perfect example of this is our much loved friend the Taxi driver. I assume they all have to have full licence but why do you never see them indicate at traffic ligths or roundabouts?

Stark

Unfortunately they can only test if you can drive correctly not that you will drive correctly.

Car Mad

Mojito wrote:

Yes very true and a perfect example of this is our much loved friend the Taxi driver. I assume they all have to have full licence but why do you never see them indicate at traffic ligths or roundabouts?

becuase taxi drivers have psychic abilities trouble is the rest of us dont:D
as for blaming learners for poor driving on the road thats just pure bs.any crash i have ever seen both parties had no L plates so i assume there on their full licence:rolleyes: it is down to the standerd of driving teaching becuse if you go to one theyl say do this and go to another they will say they exact opposite how can you deal with that:eek:

JoeySully

Fratton Fred wrote:

Thanks, that is what I had kind of read from the sticky, but wasn’t too sure.

Actually, I couldn’t believe it!! This means, that someone can get their first provisional at 17 and not be able to afford a car, therefore not drive at all.

They then leave school, get a job and renew their provisional (Never having sat behind the wheel of a car) and go out and buy a Golf VR6 which they are free to drive on their own.

I find this somewhat alarming.

This is exactly what I did.
I got my provisional at 17, now 24 and never drove legally until last April (been driving country roads before I could see over the steering wheel). Went and bought a car and drove it home on my own that day. My brother did drive in front of me for most of it.
I’ve done the test twice since but failed.
This will probably enrage lot of people and is really stupid thing to do but I’m just trying to show how easy it really is after all there are a lot of lunatics out there. I started with a 1L for the first 6months and now have a 1.9L diesel which was cheaper on insurance than the 1L petrol, go figure!
I'm yet to put up my L plates on my Latest car and do you know what I get even more patience from people and they are more courteous on the road compared to when I had a little car with a great big L.

May I start a Rant! (This is just from what I saw yesterday)

1. If you cant put the L plate on so the L look like an L and not a 7 or a upside down L, then you shouldn’t be driving (or if you cant put it up at all, ok ill take my own advice)

2. L plates should be placed front let top and rear right top. Anywhere else like front bottom right will obstruct your view more! Yes I have seen this.

3. Pug 206 owners please check you rear lights because I keep getting caught behind them and they have their brake lights constantly on!

4. Its winter time lets all turn on our lights at least parking lights but preferably dims!

5. The correct procedure for turning at a junction is -> look -> indicate -> brake -> go on have another look -> manoeuvre
And not brake -> brake -> manoeuvre while indicating!

6. I you are parked put on you parking lights!

Why the rant? None of these people that i saw doing this had L plates up and didn’t look like L drivers! So I don’t think one should brand all L drivers under the same LLLLLabel!

Ok rant over



All one really needs to be on the road is ~€3000 and an L plate or not!

cjt156

3. Pug 206 owners please check you rear lights because I keep getting caught behind them and they have their brake lights constantly on!


How F*ing true is this! Almost every one I see has them on, or else the whole tailgate takes on an Xmas tree deal when an indicator comes on....

ninty9er

Dyflin wrote:

It's a small point, but the provisional lasts for two years, not one.

Not necessarily true. Lose your 1st after a week and get your 2nd

Little-Devil

Fratton Fred wrote:

Can someone please enlighten me as to the laws here for learner drivers.

As far as I am aware, if you are on your first provisional licence, you need to have a qualified driver in the passenger seat, but once you renew your licence, ie after your first supposed year of driving, you are free to do as you please.

Is my understanding correct?

Also, are learner drivers permitted to drive on a motorway? If not, why do I see so many on the M50 and why are none of them ever stopped by the Gardai?

If my suspicions are correct, surely this must be a major factor in the standard of diving and the number of serious accidents on the roads?

Just cause you see so many cars on the M50 with L-plates does not mean they are learner drivers? Did it not occur to you that maybe these people have teenage sons, daughters or wifes, husbands who use the car for lessons ?

Dont be so quick to judge. We started somewere and im sure you broke a few rules in your time.

Alun

ninty9er wrote:

Not necessarily true. Lose your 1st after a week and get your 2nd

No you don't, you get a replacement first provisional. It might be your second physical licence, but it still counts as a first provisional as far as being accompanied is concerned.

Stark

Little-Devil wrote:

Just cause you see so many cars on the M50 with L-plates does not mean they are learner drivers? Did it not occur to you that maybe these people have teenage sons, daughters or wifes, husbands who use the car for lessons ?

Dont be so quick to judge. We started somewere and im sure you broke a few rules in your time.

I've been in cars on the motorway loads of times that had L-plates up but were been driven by people with full licences.

littlejukka

Stark wrote:

I've been in cars on the motorway loads of times that had L-plates up but were been driven by people with full licences.

that's technically illegal. if you share a car with a learner driver you should remove the L-plates before you use it.

Stark

I'm not sure if that's true in Ireland. I thought so myself but people have told me that's only the case in the UK.

Irish Salfordia

littlejukka wrote:

that's technically illegal. if you share a car with a learner driver you should remove the L-plates before you use it.

Yea, I do not believe this is true in Ireland. Certainly nothing in the Rules of the Road to say this. It is true in the UK and Northern Ireland.

Woodsy

I recently passed my test (I'm now fully licensed). I was driving on my second provisional for about 6 months. I found the attitude of full licensed drivers shocking. Cutting across me illegally at junctions, tailgating etc.

Anyway passed my test - took the 'L' Plates down, and now hardly anyone has cut me off, tailgated me etc. I find this shocking as i drive exactly as before.

Also as for driving on Motorways; i didn't get any testing on a motorway (or a dual carriageway); so how am i suddenly more qualified to drive on them. Motorways are safer not because there are less learners but because there is no oncoming traffic; less likely to get blinded by headlights and the road surface is superior.

Anyone driving on the old N Routes i'm sure will agree with this

Head The Wall

r3nu4l wrote:

Alcohol, bad roads, poor lighting and speed are the problems and this has nothing to do with the type of license you have!

Bad roads and poor lighting are not the problem. Thay may compound it but you are supposed to drive within your limits, your vehicles limits and within the limits of the surface you are driving on. If you are driving on a bad road at 100KM/h you are the problem not the road!!!

MAYPOP

In this day and age, "bad" roads should belong in the history books.

The whole freakin' system is out of order.

Wishbone Ash

Fratton Fred wrote:

why do I see so many on the M50 and why are none of them ever stopped by the Gardai?

Just because a vehicle displays an L plate, that doesn't mean the driver is a learner. It may be also used by another driver. I regularly see posts here saying it is illegal for a fully licenced driver to drive with L plates but no one ever provides any proof. I've never seen anything about it in any of the Road Traffic Acts/Statutory Instruments.

Bluetonic wrote:

All provisional licence holders, must display L-plates to the front and rear of the vehicle they are driving at all times, regardless of how many provisional licence you've held.

Can't believe people don't know the rules of the road.

Apologies for being pedantic Bluetonic, but there is no requirement for a provisional driver to display L plates in vehicle categories A,A1,M and W.


Provisional licence holders who have held a provisional licence prior to the 12th August 1985 are exempt from the accompanied rule.