Dan Carter

monosharp

This is from an New Zealand website.

Daniel Carter 7
Keep the tape of this match for a gloomy day and watch Dan Carter drop the ball for the first time ever. Carter led the All Blacks' error-rate but also made a heap of tackles and ran hard.

A 7 ??? If he was playing for Wales/Ireland/Scotland/England and did half as much he'd have got a 10/10 and man of the match.

zAbbo

He was lack-luster by his own standards, I'd say 7 was a fair rating.

And no he wouldn't get 10/10 if he done half as much playing for us. :rolleyes:

daveirl

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Webbs

Agree that 12 and 13 are better combination than the all blacks, but bit cheeky to put 10 into the mix as well. O'Gara is a long long way off being the out half that Dan Carter is.

daveirl

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Webbs

Going to be argumentative here and say that I have always thought of the 8,9,10 as a unit and NZ would definitely have the edge in that area, 12,13 would easily be Ireland, and the back 3 - 11,14,15 well no contest really despite Ireland having an excellent unit.

davyjose

daveirl wrote:

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Personally I think Leinster's 10,12,13 combination is better. I'm not saying that Contepomi is better than O'Gara, whose kicking makes him truly formidable. but Contepomi plays to the centres abilities much better. Remember back to the 6N how frustrating it was to see D'Arcy and BOD so under-utilised.

davyjose

Here's Guscott's World 15(at the bottom): http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/6186302.stm

Don't mean to seem pedantic but I can think of at least thre Inside centres better than McAllister

Hippo

davyjose wrote:

Personally I think Leinster's 10,12,13 combination is better. I'm not saying that Contepomi is better than O'Gara, whose kicking makes him truly formidable. but Contepomi plays to the centres abilities much better. Remember back to the 6N how frustrating it was to see D'Arcy and BOD so under-utilised.

A few months ago I would have agreed with you, but since the latter stages of last year's Heineken cup O'Gara has added a whole new dimension to his game taking the pass very flat and now moves BOD and Darcy as well as anyone. His improvement has been one of the most surprising and impressive developments this year. He also lacks the Contepomi ability to lose the head at inopportune times, therefore I'd give him the nod ahead of Phil.

Erin Go Brath

monosharp wrote:

This is from an New Zealand website.



A 7 ??? If he was playing for Wales/Ireland/Scotland/England and did half as much he'd have got a 10/10 and man of the match.

7 is definitely a bit harsh. Carter has everything, his kicking, passing, tackling, every facet of his game is in fact top notch. He is imo the best rugby player in the world. I guess the expectation is so huge when he takes the field that any little error is magnified. Whilst we have some outstanding talents like O'Connell, BOD, and the ever improving O'Gara, we don't have anyone as good as Carter. Their would surely be a statue of him erected somewhere if he wore the green instead of black!!!!!!!!!!

daveirl

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davyjose

Hippo wrote:

A few months ago I would have agreed with you, but since the latter stages of last year's Heineken cup O'Gara has added a whole new dimension to his game taking the pass very flat and now moves BOD and Darcy as well as anyone. His improvement has been one of the most surprising and impressive developments this year. He also lacks the Contepomi ability to lose the head at inopportune times, therefore I'd give him the nod ahead of Phil.

Yes but he also lacks the ability to run that phil has.

davyjose

daveirl wrote:

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Agreed. Remember Carter is playing for perhaps the two best sides in the world, at their respective levels: NZ and Crusaders, so hasn't really had to ever take a game by the scruff of the neck the way others have.

Hippo

daveirl wrote:

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Absolutely. There is no way on earth Carter is better than BOD

Erin Go Brath

daveirl wrote:

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Fair point, Carter is equally as good a number 10, as BOD is a 13, I agree with that.
However in their respective positions Carter gets to control, dominate and influence the game much more than BOD.

Dont think Campbell or Ward were as good as Carter although Ward was top notch when when we beat the ABs in '78. Although its hard comparing players of a different era, I think Carter could possibly be the best number 10 of all time.

shmaido

what about johnny wilkinson? thought he was pretty damn good when he wasn't injured, well he tore us apart a few times. Hypothetically speaking, if wilko wasn't injured and was in form, where would you reckon he'd sit in the world no. 10 rankings?

damnyanks

I see them as pretty similar players. Wilko was all about the kick where as carter seems to have more to him... but then again its nearly 4 years since wilko played, myabe I'm not remembering it right

How depressed he must be

davyjose

damnyanks wrote:

I see them as pretty similar players. Wilko was all about the kick where as carter seems to have more to him...

Wilkinson was a superior tackler than Carter is. And his kicking from hand was without equal - although Carter seems no worse at point scoring. Ball in hand Carter all the way though

Incidentally, I've seen BOD ruck like an openside at times, whoever made the point about him not controlling games isn't looking at it defensively.

Hippo

Erin Go Brath wrote:

Although its hard comparing players of a different era, I think Carter could possibly be the best number 10 of all time.

Impossible to compare through the different eras, but I have to give a special mention to Phil Bennett of Wales during the 70s, who was almost a pleasure to watch, even when they were murdering us :mad:

Webbs

davyjose wrote:

Wilkinson was a superior tackler than Carter is. And his kicking from hand was without equal - although Carter seems no worse at point scoring. Ball in hand Carter all the way though

Incidentally, I've seen BOD ruck like an openside at times, whoever made the point about him not controlling games isn't looking at it defensively.

Watch Carter again closely and tell me he isn't as good a tackler as Wilkinson! He also has too be a damn good rucker of the ball (name me a NZer who isn't at the moment). He also hasn't always been sat behind a dominant set piece pack and there is no one better at controlling a game.
I don't think there is anyone close to him at the moment as a back in world rugby and I think he still has a way to go to being his best.
He had a quiet autumn yet his performances have still been excellent. He never seems to have a poor international game, and no doubt I'll be accused of heresy here but the same can't be said of BOD

Hippo

Webbs wrote:

He never seems to have a poor international game, and no doubt I'll be accused of heresy here but the same can't be said of BOD

Burn the heretic

Erin Go Brath

davyjose wrote:

Wilkinson was a superior tackler than Carter is. And his kicking from hand was without equal - although Carter seems no worse at point scoring. Ball in hand Carter all the way though

Incidentally, I've seen BOD ruck like an openside at times, whoever made the point about him not controlling games isn't looking at it defensively.

Disagree. Carter is a better tackler than Wilko. His kicking, passing, tackling is above anyone I've seen in recent years.

BODs rucking and all-round play is above and beyond the call of an OC. He is the best OC in the world. Still not an involved as a position as OH tho. Therefore Carter is a more important player for NZ, that BOD is for IRL. You can add me to the list of heretics too for my comments, but you know its true.

Hippo

Bring more kindling for the fire! And no, I don't know it's true.

Sangre

Disagree on the tackling front, Wilko was a phenomenal tackler, one of the hardest hitting backs out there, especially for his weight. No wonder he fecked his shoulder up with the power of those tackles.

shmaido

i think theres an echo in here...

TarfHead

Erin Go Brath wrote:

Disagree. Carter is a better tackler than Wilko. His kicking, passing, tackling is above anyone I've seen in recent years.

By recent years I assume you mean the post RWC 2003 years ?

Kicking ? I'm no Statto, but I assume that ROG's stats are similar.
Passing ? OK, but having Mauger at 12 is no burden.
Tackling ? I agree with other posts that Jonny Wilkinson is the standard by which all other OHs must be judged.
Running ? Agree. Only Larkham, when on form, comes close.

davyjose

Webbs wrote:

Watch Carter again closely and tell me he isn't as good a tackler as Wilkinson!

I've seen Carter play less than a week ago. I'm sorry mate, but I suggest you go back and look at some old videos of Wilkinson, because i think your doing him a disservice. He was simply pound for pound one of the best tacklers the game has seen.
Erin Go Brath, Carter is indeed extremely good in all areas of play - which is what makes him stand out so prominently. But to say he is the BEST in all these areas is ridiculous.
In all four areas there are players his equal or better
Kicking: ROG, Wilkinson
Running: Spencer
Passing: Spencer Larkham (a weakish point for Carter, who's been known to throw to opposition)
Tackling: Wilkinson

In all these areas there are specialist, its just that Carter has come the closest to mastering all four. also his decision making is well above par.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

I was thinking that as well the other day, BOD could easily be a 7. To the OP, when did Carter make the mistake against Wales, I can't remember any!

Erin Go Brath

davyjose wrote:

I've seen Carter play less than a week ago. I'm sorry mate, but I suggest you go back and look at some old videos of Wilkinson, because i think your doing him a disservice. He was simply pound for pound one of the best tacklers the game has seen.
Erin Go Brath, Carter is indeed extremely good in all areas of play - which is what makes him stand out so prominently. But to say he is the BEST in all these areas is ridiculous.
In all four areas there are players his equal or better
Kicking: ROG, Wilkinson
Running: Spencer
Passing: Spencer Larkham (a weakish point for Carter, who's been known to throw to opposition)
Tackling: Wilkinson

In all these areas there are specialist, its just that Carter has come the closest to mastering all four. also his decision making is well above par.

I agree with you that he has come the closest to mastering all four facets of his game than anyone else.

Not sure I agree that ROG is as good a kicker as him. EG. The other day against Wales. He kicked from inside his 22, all the way to the opponents 22. Never in my life seen ROG get that much out of the ball. His goal kicking cannot be faulted either. The guy rarely misses. It must be soul destroying for teams to play against someone like that.

Running: Hard to call this one. He's at least equal to Spencer (the Zidane of Rugby) in this one i believe. Carter is only 24 and will probably surpass spencer in this area in the fullness of time.

Passing: He occasionally throws the odd forward pass. (This is probably his weakest facet - agree on that). That said his passing is still on a par with the best around.

Tackling: Wilkinson punched well above his weight in this area. Carter is stronger though and less injury prone when he puts in the big hits, which puts Carter ahead in this category.

All in all the best OH in the world, past or present imo and he hasn't even reached his peak yet. Scary stuff!!

davyjose

No no, Spencer was Running holes through defences since he was 19 for the Auckland Blues, and it wasn't by accident that he got picked ahead of Mehrtens and (albeit a very young) Carter. And it wasn't for his kicking/defence either. I really don't think Carter has the ability, or any 10 for that matter, to get over the gain-line that Spencer has. He as much said, after the lions tour, that he looks to someday be as good as Spencer in that area of play.
O'gara might not have the kicking range of Carter, but that's about it. His kicking for touch, into space, and for goal are as good as it gets. He's won me over - a year ago I was bleating on for Humphries to start. Not now.
I don't think Carter will ever get to the level of Tackling Jonny did, but this is good. It's probably what ruined his career.