Another hand from GJP 1k event

Ollieboy

GJP Hand

I’m in the BB, blinds currently 4000/8000, were 7 handed at this stage and villain has been raising a lot preflop and been very aggressive, he likes to steal a lot and I would describe him as been aggressive, he would raise with any Ace and bet the flop and turn to get you to fold. He makes what I feel is some bad timed bluffs, but so far I’ve not been able to catch him with a hand and I’ve struggle to find a hand for a long time now.

He raise in mp, it’s a minimum raise, to 16000, he only puts in 14000 at first, so this stinks of a big hand, AA/KK. Its fold around to me and I’ve A7 d. I decide to flat called, think any diamonds would be good or an ace high flop.

Flop A24 with 2 spades, I check, he bets 20k very quickly, I call ( should I have raised here), turn is a 3 spades, I decide to represent here and bet 28k,( should I have check). He pushs all-in.

Action to me?

He had about 200k at the start of the hand and I had about 135k, I’ve now got about 60k in the middle, leaving me only 70k behind.

I don’t think he like the spades and when the 3rd spade hit he look at his hand, this could mean nothing, but would indicated he couldn’t remember if he had a spade, so I’m guessing he has a pp with a spade.

BigCityBanker

The push smacks of weakness/fear. I think you have made an error by not betting the flop. You would have a much clearer picture of where your A stood in the hand. The min raise confuses me here. Your A is unlikely to be good due to kicker issues - what hands would you see him minraiseing with? Much as I hate to I think I can find a fold here.

Ollieboy

BigCityBanker wrote:

The push smacks of weakness/fear. I think you have made an error by not betting the flop. You would have a much clearer picture of where your A stood in the hand. The min raise confuses me here. Your A is unlikely to be good due to kicker issues - what hands would you see him minraiseing with? Much as I hate to I think I can find a fold here.

With a Ace on the board and me holding a Ace, I dont think he as AA, also, if he had AK he would have made a bigger raise to take the blinds and get a race going instead of creating action by minimum raising, so I can only put him on KK with K spades, hence I should call!

BigCityBanker

Ollieboy wrote:

With a Ace on the board and me holding a Ace, I dont think he as AA, also, if he had AK he would have made a bigger raise to take the blinds and get a race going instead of creating action by minimum raising, so I can only put him on KK with K spades, hence I should call!

If thats your read then call for sure. Min raising with KK is very poor play, pushing with KK on an A high, draw heavy board is pathetic play and he should be punished for it. How did he make the last 14? The scare hand here is AxXc where Xc is bigger than your 7 - in which case you are well and truly focked. You say he will raise with any A here and thats why I think I can find a fold as its the most likely holding. If you are confident he has KK- here and one spade then its an insta call. You have to trust your read for tournament life here on a very scary board.

bops

i'm sure you laid this one down here, you are behind to way to many hands.
People appear to be min raising with the strangest of hands lately - you agree??
All the looney needs is a lone 5 and your tourney is over!
Lay down and tilt when he shows his silly hand!!

Gholimoli

i dont like the raise.
check/call is hte best line if you thnk your A is good.
your hand is not strong enough to stand a reraise and check/calling allows you to lose the min if behind and win the most when ahead(by him bluffing at the pot).
i hate the raise.

fuzzbox

BigCityBanker wrote:

The push smacks of weakness/fear.

Why?

cardshark202

Either call him down or check fold flop. Leading at any stage is bad, as is raising, unless you are doing so to induce a bluff, but thats generally not a good thing to try against a tourney donk.

spectre

Why did you try to represent when you felt that your hand had some showdown value?
If you feel that your Ace is probably good against this aggro player a turn check-call is better.

If you want to represent I prefer a CRAI on the turn as he probably folds winning hands as well as hands we are beating

Ollieboy

well the villian was Paul Higgins, he finish 4th as far as I remember.

I bet out on the turn as I felt I was ahead and want to end the hand here, if he knew I had the Ace and my read was correct he would throw his hand away, but he didn't and came over the top, which to me is a sign of weakness, if he had a set, he would have flat called unless he was thinking I was trying to buy a river card. I'm very sure he had KK and this is what I meant by overplaying his hand here, if my kicker had been better I would have called, but with the stakes so high I decided to give it up and try to double up with my remaining 70k asap.

A check call would have been fine, but I was also scared of a 4th spade card and I felt he had one spade, but not 2.

ianmc38

I cant understand your logic. You thought he had KK so you folded in case a K or a spade hit? That doesn't seem right. If he made you fold a better hand then I dont think his hand was overplayed, more well played...

cardshark202

Was the A the ace of spades? Then I guess its possible he has KK with the K spades. But when you say he has overplayed his hand if he has KK, I don't see how, he could easily have AxKc, AxQc, etc. But you have really really overplayed your holding.
You can't worry about things like the board 4 flushing because it is forcing you to play your hand less than optimally.
As a side note, from what I was told, Paul played really well, but he minraised here. That was almost certainly a mistake, especially given the stack sizes.

Gholimoli

Ollie,
i have seen you post on a few different threads basically saying "i think im ahead so i bet to end the hand there" .
IMO this is wrong.if you feel you are ahead why are you looking to end the hand specially on the turn with just one more card to come.
this gets worse as you have an A with A on the flop which means you should not be scared of an over card which makes alot of difference.
i really dont understand your logic for betting here.
it its a value bet then its wrong simply becuase your hand is not strong enough to value bet here and if its a bluff bet trying to get him off a hand then its also wrong cuz in your admision you could be ahead here which means your hand does have some show down value.
by betting here you have effectively offered him the pot cuz he can represent alot hands here that you cant possibly call him down with so you have put your self in a position where you will often be folding the best hand.
specially against an aggressive player who is capable of coming over the top there with a wide range.

bops

Ollieboy wrote:

...I'm very sure he had KK and this is what I meant by overplaying his hand here, if my kicker had been better I would have called
...but I was also scared of a 4th spade card and I felt he had one spade, but not 2.

Can't see the logic here Ollie - if he had shown you KsKx you would have insta-called!! - 5/1 fav????

Ollieboy wrote:

...but with the stakes so high I decided to give it up and try to double up with my remaining 70k asap.

I see the logic here alright!!

ianmc38

bops wrote:

Can't see the logic here Ollie - if he had shown you KsKx you would have insta-called!! - 5/1 fav????




I see the logic here alright!!

BOPS if the stakes are too high for you to be calling or you're playing scared then you shouldn't play those stakes.

fuzzbox

Ollieboy wrote:

Flop A24 with 2 spades, I check, he bets 20k very quickly, I call ( should I have raised here), turn is a 3 spades, I decide to represent here and bet 28k

So, with the pot standing at preflop 16k + 16k + 4k = 36k and flop 20k + 20k = 40k ... for a total of 76k .... you decide to "represent" by betting 28k.

What were you trying to represent?

bops

ianmc38 wrote:

BOPS if the stakes are too high for you to be calling or you're playing scared then you shouldn't play those stakes.

Sorry Ian, i wasn't refering to the buy-in of the event (i suppose that's what ollie meant), i was really referring to the fact that the hand had now become a call for his tourney life - ie the stakes in the hand in question had become too high - if you know what i mean - sorry - my fault

Yep! you're 100% right in what you say - playing at unconfortable levels usually leads to poor decisions, due to the added pressure. It's one of the main reasons imo that people who get into large tourneys via sats can do well when they look at them as basically freerolling. Also people with too much money often do well - simply beacuse they don't care!!

Ollieboy

Ok, there's a big difference, I was 50% sure he had KK as its the only hand that made sense, I cant understand the mini raise move, unless its a monster or he want to see a cheap flop.

As for ending the hand Gholi, I was out of position and there was 3 spades on the board with me having no spade, so it makes sense to take down the pot there if I'm sure he had KK etc with a spade, if I check and he felt he was behind, he might check to and hit his flush, it was also a info bet in relation to find out how strong or how much he like his hand, if he called, I would have been in trouble on the river, also, if he was ahead, why did he want to end the hand there?

I dont think he had a ace, as there was a possible flush and straight on the board, I think he push me off the pot, there was no way I could call after his push allin. In hindsight and the reason for the post, I think I would have been better to check or drop the hand on the flop, would have been happier now to drop the hand on flop.

Also, if he push all in on a Ace high board with a flush and straights on it with KK, thats terrible play, risking 3/4 of your stack on a total bluff when you know the other guy must have hit top pair, your hoping he's not got a big kicker or 2 pair etc.

Hitman Actual

I personally think the pre-flop call is questionable, because you're in that 15BB range where marginal hands are a nightmare to play. I know you're getting 3/1 on the call, and you're up against a loose raiser, but still... (but then again I am uber-tight by times.)

I probably lead the flop once I hit, though.

Ollieboy

fuzzbox wrote:

So, with the pot standing at preflop 16k + 16k + 4k = 36k and flop 20k + 20k = 40k ... for a total of 76k .... you decide to "represent" by betting 28k.

What were you trying to represent?

I was representing having a hand fuzz, I'm telling him I've the ace or the flush or whatever else he might think I have.

28k into a 76k pot isn't that bad of a bet, it was a good portion of my stack and with blinds so big, you dont have to be making pot size bets, I was also trying to leave enough behind me in case I was wrong, which is exactly what happened after his push.

Ollieboy

lenny_leonard wrote:

I personally think the pre-flop call is questionable, because you're in that 15BB range where marginal hands are a nightmare to play. I know you're getting 3/1 on the call, and you're up against a loose raiser, but still... (but then again I am uber-tight by times.)

I probably lead the flop once I hit, though.

Agree with this Len, I felt price into the call preflop and I also thought about leading out, but I felt he would reraise me if I did with any 2 cards, so sometimes calling slows people down better on the flop, but not in this case. I hate calling with these marginal hands preflop as there so hard to play after the flop out of position

Scotty #

Ollieboy wrote:

I hate calling with these marginal hands preflop .....

The exact reason I'd never be in this hand. You have to hit the flop BIG to be confident your ahead. I'd be more likely to play A3s or A4s than A7s.

Gholimoli

Ollie,
IMO the most important thing here in this hand based on everything you have said is to keep the pot small.
something you failed to do by your bet on the turn.
apart from the bet being weak as Fuzz correctly pointed out,it actually does damage for your holding.you are essentially turning your TP into a bluff.
thats bad.
by all means there bet with KQ or something that you have missed completely but not when you actually have a hand.
you also mentioned "i wanted to know where i stood" again this is bad.your paying too much and the info your getting is very inaccurate.
you also say you wanted to represent (i persume you meant the flush) but would have really called a 20K bet on the flop with a flush draw?
you would have most prob folded or pushed with a flush draw.
also people pick up "i wanted to have enough behind just incase my read was wrong and i had to fold" and this makes them push as well.
so all an all your bet on the turn has maximized your opponents bluffing at the pot,minimized you getting paid off with the worse hand,maximized your losses,and given your self 0% making to show down or even improving further on the river.

robinlacey

betting the turn here is terrible,especially given the reasons you mentioned...
gholimoli's last post explains why pretty well

Ollieboy

Gholimoli wrote:

Ollie,
IMO the most important thing here in this hand based on everything you have said is to keep the pot small.
something you failed to do by your bet on the turn.
apart from the bet being weak as Fuzz correctly pointed out,it actually does damage for your holding.you are essentially turning your TP into a bluff.
thats bad.
by all means there bet with KQ or something that you have missed completely but not when you actually have a hand.
you also mentioned "i wanted to know where i stood" again this is bad.your paying too much and the info your getting is very inaccurate.
you also say you wanted to represent (i persume you meant the flush) but would have really called a 20K bet on the flop with a flush draw?
you would have most prob folded or pushed with a flush draw.
also people pick up "i wanted to have enough behind just incase my read was wrong and i had to fold" and this makes them push as well.
so all an all your bet on the turn has maximized your opponents bluffing at the pot,minimized you getting paid off with the worse hand,maximized your losses,and given your self 0% making to show down or even improving further on the river.

I know mate, this is where I loss the hand, even if he was bluffing, but he played it well and I was left in no mans land in relation to the hand and got nothing back in return for my bet. It was a poor bet, but I felt I might have been ahead and it seem correct at the time.

fuzzbox

Ollieboy wrote:

I was representing having a hand fuzz, I'm telling him I've the ace or the flush or whatever else he might think I have.

28k into a 76k pot isn't that bad of a bet, it was a good portion of my stack and with blinds so big, you dont have to be making pot size bets, I was also trying to leave enough behind me in case I was wrong, which is exactly what happened after his push.

Yeah - I got that ... you represented that you had a bit of a hand, wanted to see if you could win the pot cheap, and wanted to keep enough stack back to play with if villain woke up with a hand.

So he raised, and you had precisely what you represented.

Goodluck2me

Ollieboy wrote:

I know mate, this is where I loss the hand, even if he was bluffing, but he played it well and I was left in no mans land in relation to the hand and got nothing back in return for my bet. It was a poor bet, but I felt I might have been ahead and it seem correct at the time.

would you have bet here ollie with the flush? if you had the As7s, or even KQs, woudl you have bet out the same on the turn

The Snapper

Ollie
Your post shows a lot of class. You realise you've played the hand poorly, yet post it just the same. You learn a lot posting this hand, and I'm sure you made some fabulous plays in this event to make the FT. These would make fabulous bragging material but hold little value otherwise. So, top class and well played.:)

Ps. I think Gholi has pretty much nailed it in his summary.

Thanks a lot guys.

Jesus Wept

Ollieboy wrote:

I was representing having a hand fuzz, I'm telling him I've the ace or the flush or whatever else he might think I have.

28k into a 76k pot isn't that bad of a bet, it was a good portion of my stack and with blinds so big, you dont have to be making pot size bets, I was also trying to leave enough behind me in case I was wrong, which is exactly what happened after his push.

Intersting hand!

<--- I was the villain in question

I know you don't think im upto much Ollie, not sure why really, but you have made numerous comments to that effect the couple of times we have played, always with a smile on your face too!

But don't take this post the wrong way, I don't mind, I'm not easily phased and you're entitled to your opinion.

Ollieboy

The-Rigger wrote:

Intersting hand!

<--- I was the villain in question

I know you don't think im upto much Ollie, not sure why really, but you have made numerous comments to that effect the couple of times we have played, always with a smile on your face too!

But don't take this post the wrong way, I don't mind, I'm not easily phased and you're entitled to your opinion.

I knew this was you.

I dont remember making any comments to your face or behind your back, with or without a smile. You seem to be a very good player, with a unusual style and I know your results have been good online and live.

But I'm sure you were behind in that hand!

The hand was not that interesting, more the way I paid you off was bad.

Wp on getting 4th.

Ollieboy

goodluck2me wrote:

would you have bet here ollie with the flush? if you had the As7s, or even KQs, woudl you have bet out the same on the turn

sometimes I would, it makes the other player think you dont have the flush. same idea with betting with position and set. Depends on the player and his standard, stack size and table style. In this example, yes.

Jesus Wept

Ollieboy wrote:

I knew this was you.

I dont remember making any comments to your face or behind your back, with or without a smile. You seem to be a very good player, with a unusual style and I know your results have been good online and live.

But I'm sure you were behind in that hand!

The hand was not that interesting, more the way I paid you off was bad.

Wp on getting 4th.

Thanks to IanMc! You seem to have been supporting me in a few posts, appreciate it!

The comments weren't nasty or anything, don't want you to think I have a grudge! I guess I more got the impression you're unimpressed, you seem like a sound fella, I'll buy you a pint next time.

So many posts here to quote to respond to I wouldn't know where to start.

Someone said my allin seemed weak or in fear, from the figures given (my head is fuzzy, as usual!) it would seem there was 70k in the pot, there or there abouts, and Ollie had about 65k left, with 3 spades on the board, so I don't think an allin here (also when been bet into) rather than a raise is unusual.

I was ahead in the hand, so you were wise saving your chips, and despite leaving you with a frustrating short stack, doing so was you're best option. The minraise pf was unintentional, I have a bad habit of making some very silly mistakes, I meant to make a standard raise, so I guess this changes a lot of how the hand can be interpreted.

As I remember, despite the good structure of the tournament, it felt like there wasn't much room at that time for flops, turns and rivers without it been a large portion of most stacks, the stacks didn't feel so deep, I guess tournaments have this little way of been like an accordion type (really needing a better metaphor type thing) where the amount of play and deepness of the stacks can change quite a lot depending on how fast or slow
players are exiting...


It's interesting to here my general play described, as I'm actually fairly unaware how I'm perceived, made for an interesting read!


And thanks for the congrats, unfortunately I had a couple of seriously blond moments when we got 4 handed, I should never of finished out of the top 3, a couple of mistakes were my undoing.

Hitman Actual

The-Rigger wrote:

Thanks to IanMc! You seem to have been supporting me in a few posts, appreciate it!

The comments weren't nasty or anything, don't want you to think I have a grudge! I guess I more got the impression you're unimpressed, you seem like a sound fella, I'll buy you a pint next time.

So many posts here to quote to respond to I wouldn't know where to start.

Someone said my allin seemed weak or in fear, from the figures given (my head is fuzzy, as usual!) it would seem there was 70k in the pot, there or there abouts, and Ollie had about 65k left, with 3 spades on the board, so I don't think an allin here rather than a raise is unusual.

I was ahead in the hand, so you were better off saving your chips, the minraise pf was unintentional, I have a bad habit of making some very silly mistakes, I meant to make a standard raise, so I guess this changes a lot of how the hand can be interpreted.

It's interesting to here my general play described, as I'm actually fairly unware how I'm percived, made for an interesting read!


And thanks for the congrats, unfortunatly I had a couple of seriously blonde moments when we got 4 handed, I should never of finished out of the top 3, a couple of mistakes were my undoing.

So you going to tell us what you had? Well done on 4th anyway.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Jesus Wept

lenny_leonard wrote:

So you going to tell us what you had? Well done on 4th anyway.

Thanks Lenny

Alright, I don't usually, but seeing as I like yiz I will, I had AQc, tried to standard raise the bb, but, did my all too common handling the chips blunder, flopped top pair. bet it, Ollie bet into me on the turn, even a 3 times his raise would of been 80-90% of his stack, so an allin felt fine to me, and there were 3 spades out there....

I looked back at my cards, probably before Ollie bet, this was just a totally random thing, something I rarely do, I knew exactly what my hand was, I find it funny the amount of times people look back at their cards, especially when they aren't even checking to see if they have a card to a draw (see WSOP/WPT/any poker coverage), I guess I was just entertaining myself by doing this randomly like I see people do, trying it out!

Jesus Wept

LuckyLloyd wrote:

What Lenny said. Congrats on a fantastic performance. Couple of tough hands late on. From what I saw over the last two days of the tournament, I think underestimating your game would be seriously - EV.

Thanks Lloyd

Congrats on the victory, you played great, was entertaining hearing you running over to shove in every hand blind in the smaller tournament, hearing reports of your J3 beating KK (why was he trying to crack your J3 in the first place, I will never understand?!) and driving the crowd wild!


also, next time we play together, I must warn you I will have to limit it to 2 double up's per tournament! I can't handle any more!

Ollieboy

The-Rigger wrote:

Thanks to IanMc! You seem to have been supporting me in a few posts, appreciate it!

The comments weren't nasty or anything, don't want you to think I have a grudge! I guess I more got the impression you're unimpressed, you seem like a sound fella, I'll buy you a pint next time.

So many posts here to quote to respond to I wouldn't know where to start.

Someone said my allin seemed weak or in fear, from the figures given (my head is fuzzy, as usual!) it would seem there was 70k in the pot, there or there abouts, and Ollie had about 65k left, with 3 spades on the board, so I don't think an allin here (also when been bet into) rather than a raise is unusual.

I was ahead in the hand, so you were wise saving your chips, and despite leaving you with a frustrating short stack, doing so was you're best option. The minraise pf was unintentional, I have a bad habit of making some very silly mistakes, I meant to make a standard raise, so I guess this changes a lot of how the hand can be interpreted.

As I remember, despite the good structure of the tournament, it felt like there wasn't much room at that time for flops, turns and rivers without it been a large portion of most stacks, the stacks didn't feel so deep, I guess tournaments have this little way of been like an accordion type (really needing a better metaphor type thing) where the amount of play and deepness of the stacks can change quite a lot depending on how fast or slow
players are exciting...


It's interesting to here my general play described, as I'm actually fairly unaware how I'm perceived, made for an interesting read!


And thanks for the congrats, unfortunately I had a couple of seriously blond moments when we got 4 handed, I should never of finished out of the top 3, a couple of mistakes were my undoing.

I think you might have been to aggressive when it got 4 handed, live poker is a lot slower than online and that kind of play works well online, but you have to be more patient live and trapping players for the whole stack is more important than races.

I aggree, there was very little play left at that stage and if you played a hand, you played for your stack. If you say your ahead, I believe you, its hopefully think you had KK anyway, but the mini raise was bad or good, depending on what you want. I remember limping when we were 3 tables out and this totally freak the table, even the BB want to fold preflop.

You should always know how other players preceive you, as this can be used to your advantage, but you dont need me to tell you.

Looking forward to that pint and the next time we meet on a table.lol.

gl rigger