specific right of way query

flogen

Just something a friend and I were pondering without success:

Those of you familiar with Westmorland St. in Dublin city will likely know the kinda-lane entrance to Temple Bar (the one that leads you to Thunder Road Cafe)... if you know the one I'm talking about, you'll know that the actual road (ie, the bit in between the paths) is raised to the same level as the paths and paved in a way similar to Grafton St.
There aren't any lights, no zebra crossing markings and no right of way signage at all.

I've often assumed that any road (or former road) raised to the level of a path (and paved like one) is pedestrianised (like Grafton Street) and given that Temple Bar is also pedestrianised I figured this entrance to it follows the same rules... that said I don't walk out in front of cars, especially not here where they tend to take the turn at reasonable speed.

My friend was equally unsure, but came out with the fair rule that if a road has paths at all it's best to assume you don't have right of way on the road (but that isn't the case in Temple Bar, as far as I know anyway).

So my query is, who has right of way here? I appreciate that at rush hour it can be hard for cars to get a break in pedestrians to get down the road, but I've always assumed the pedestrian has the right of way anyway.
Given that I've been beeped at for walking across zebra crossings on numerous occasions I have no doubt that plenty of drivers don't know or care about a pedestrians right of way anyway... I'd just like to be sure I was right if ever I get someone yelling at me for walking across a road I had right of way over

Many thanks

CherieAmour

Interesting....more often than not the cars have no choice but to wait because there's so many people on that stretch these days and they all walk out, but I've been beeped at and nearly knocked down there too for walking out

As far as Temple Bar being pedestrianised goes, not all of it is, and cars are free to drive from the turn you are talking about right up until Oliver St. John Gogarty's where they have to turn right

I'd be interested to know what others think too...

Simon201

Tough one, although at junctions such as the one above where it would seem that pedestrians have the right of way, we should really be aware that there is only one outcome in the event of an accident, and that is of course...
Car - 1
Pedestrian - 0

cyclopath2001

True, but I think that if someone uses a car to force pedestrians to give way, by driving towards them in an aggressive manner and/or sounding the horn, that should be classified as an assault and treated as such.

liamo

They put these on a number of junctions around SCR a number of years ago and they caused no end of confusion then.

As a pedestrian and a driver I was one of many people who didn't know who had right of way. I still see the confusion that it causes. My current opinion is that, as there are no signs or other indications that it's a Pedestrian Crossing, then it is not a Pedestrian Crossing and that pedestrians and drivers should continue to treat it as a normal junction. Perhaps I'm wrong, in which case I'd be delighted for someone to set me straight.

I do think that, where the authorities have seen fit to meddle with the normal and expected layout of junctions and crossings, it should be made very clear to pedestrians and drivers how to behave. Confusion causes accidents.

Regards,

Liam

TheMonster

http://www.irishmotoring.ie/car/rulesoftheroad/rules_of_the_road_other_road_users.php

At a pedestrian crossing you do not have the right of way over vehicular traffic until you have actually stepped onto the crossing. You should not step onto the crossing if this would result in a driver having to brake or swerve suddenly.

From this it looks like whoever gets their first scenario, where this becomes a problem is where there is a queue of cars and a constant stream of pedestrians.

Zoney

Why can't we have more proper zebras around the country. It's silly putting dished pavement sections at the approaches/exits of roundabouts when there should be zebras. If this will cause problems, then move the crossings back; but don't pretend that you don't have that problem *plus* potential for pedestrians getting stuck/knocked down if you put up these "fake" crossings. Quite simply there should either be railings+kerb or zebras where they have these random dished pavement sections (and for sure I would not like to be negotiating the non-zebra ones in a wheelchair!)

At the Parkway roundabout in Limerick the fake crossings even have pedestrian crossing warning signs at the approaches (the ones showing ped walking between two parallel dashed lines); even though the white lines they painted at the fake (i.e. not zebra) crossings were subsequently burnt off. One exit does have a zebra (it has those faked warning signs that show specifically a zebra crossing; i.e. not just the ped crossing sign from the TSM); it works well (not least because traffic is slow moving) but should be sited further from the roundabout on the exit side (currently not even really one car distance).

cyclopath2001

TheMonster wrote:

http://www.irishmotoring.ie/car/rulesoftheroad/rules_of_the_road_other_road_users.php
From this it looks like whoever gets their first scenario, where this becomes a problem is where there is a queue of cars and a constant strwma of pedestrians.

I would be wary of trusting the interpretations of 'irishmotoring' which has ignored other legal provisions favorable to pedestrians. It's biased.

Here are the regulations (drawn from SI 182/1997)

Capt'n Midnight

TheMonster wrote:

From this it looks like whoever gets their first scenario, where this becomes a problem is where there is a queue of cars and a constant stream of pedestrians.

You have to yield to traffic already crossing.
Where all else is equal,
pedestrials > cyclists > motorists
first class > second class > third class road users

How many motorists don't realise that they are only third class road users ?
In a good few cases they get right of way yielded to them not because they are entitled but because other road users aren't suicidal or quite simply don't trust them .

cyclopath2001

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

How many motorists don't realise that they are only third class road users ?

That's not really true. They get to use up space that is absurdly disproportionate to their basic needs.

And, consider this regulation:

"46. (1) A pedestrian shall exercise care and take all reasonable precautions in order to avoid causing danger or inconvenience to traffic and other pedestrians."

This could be taken as making it illegal to cross the road, if to do so, causes inconvenience to a motorist.

flogen

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

You have to yield to traffic already crossing.
Where all else is equal,
pedestrials > cyclists > motorists
first class > second class > third class road users

How many motorists don't realise that they are only third class road users ?
In a good few cases they get right of way yielded to them not because they are entitled but because other road users aren't suicidal or quite simply don't trust them .

Well this is why I'm cautious when crossing this particular junction, even though I think I have right of way...
There is a problem in the fact that at peak hours, Westmorland st. is very busy and as such there is rarely a moment when a pedestrian is not crossing (or attempting to cross) this point.
As far as Zebra's go, I always knew you had to "be there first", in Omni Shopping Centre, Santry, there are loads going along one side of the complex, and cars are always coming off the roundabout into the petrol station, usually beeping at me while I'm halfway across the thing... idiots .

@ TheMonster; cheers for the definition, but how can you be sure it's a pedestrian crossing; does that apply to any point where a pedestrian would need to cross in order to get to another place, or does it have to have lights, signage, a zebra crossing or something?

cyclopath2001

flogen wrote:

As far as Zebra's go, I always knew you had to "be there first", in Omni Shopping Centre, Santry,

If the crossing is inside of the centre's grounds, road traffic laws don't apply. It's whatever the center decides. So, no right of way as such might exist.

Hotblack Desiato

Road traffic laws apply in any public place.

Road Traffic Act 1961 wrote:

"public place" means any street, road or other place to which the public have access with vehicles whether as of right or by permission and whether subject to or free of charge;

mikedragon32

The road in question, Fleet St., is paved in this manner for aesthetic purposes and doesn't grant any particular favour to pedestrians. I'm not aware of any markings along Fleet St. that would give any indication that there is pedestrian priority, until the junction at Bedford Row, where all traffic must turn right.