Kill or Be Killed

astfgl

I was talking to guy who trains in a traditional martial arts and i showed him an escape from the "ballyfermot" headlock (here is a clip from youtube showing Cesar Gracie escaping it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zW-1T95Z4U)
He was suitably impressed and says he a bit suprised i can do it well cause i'm a lot smaller than him.
He then tells me he trained with a black belt who was even smaller than me (i'm 5' 6" and skinny) but who would easily beat me because he could hit me in the balls.
This catches me a bit off guard, so I say the only thing that comes into my head : "ahh, cock punching, where's the skill in that?"
He replies by saying "yeah, but he could rip your balls off, thats a skill he learned"


I've shown friends ( some who do TMAs) clips and fights and some say things like "you can gouge his eyes when he does that" or "you hit him in the balls when he stands like that"

Theres even another thread on this site where a guy complains about the no biting, eye gouging, stomping etc rules of the UFC.

Here's my point:
Stuff like biting, eye gouging, pulling hair or "ripping off balls" are not martial arts.

I am not attacking any particular martial arts, but some seem to have the "Kill or Be Killed" mentality to (street) fights.

Now don't get me wrong, if I got into a fight and I absolutely had to win/escape I'd resort to throat strikes/cock punching, whatever it took to survive (situation dictates tactics), but i would not go into the fight looking to do these things

I've trained with a TMA where we were shown a preemptive attack where the assailant was struck and taken down in one foul swoop, but instead of escape or control, the finish to the technique was a foot stomp on the neck.

This is not what i would call a self defense. A self defense would end with disengaging from your opponent and flight, not a possibly fatal strike.

While attack is the best form of defense it does not mean you have to kill your opponent.
Remember, after such a fight you could end up in court:
"It was self defense your honour, after i took him down and ripped off his testicles I stomped on his neck for my own protection":rolleyes:

Khannie

astfgl wrote:

"It was self defense your honour, after i took him down and ripped off his testicles I stomped on his neck for my own protection":rolleyes:

HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Edit: Good points. Though in fairness....More often than not, defending yourself means making sure the other guy doesn't get back up. Nobody wants a broken glass in the back of the head as you walk away triumphant.

astfgl

Khannie wrote:

Nobody wants a broken glass in the back of the head as you walk away triumphant.

True, but that doesn't mean throat stomping or neutering by hand (think what Bruce Willis' character does in the end of Sin City to the yellow guy).

Khannie

Agreed, yeah. I did some very basic legal studies in college. As far as I remember, you're allowed defend yourself to the point that you're in no danger, but no further (reasonable force). I'm sure any judge would consider de-balling someone to be stepping over the line.

crazy monkey

Hi guys [and dolls],

I am a sports bjj/mma guy who has over 20 years TMA experience, some background before I jump into the lions den [not ken shamrock's training group - thankfully].

Martial arts with emphasis on the word martial means to hurt, maime, defend with extreme prejudice, kill if necessary.
This term comes from a time gone by when words like family honour, feudal lord where common.

Martial arts now are taught to a poor standard in terms of the actual apllication of the martial element...the mindset of the martial practictioner disturbs me greatly-people who want to eye gouge, bite, cripple or heavens forbid de-ball an attacker.Why?

I come at a fight from an I DON'T WANT TO BE HERE mindset....I kick I punch I grapple if I have to then I leave making sure I am as safe as possible without leaving a "victim" behind me.

I know we live in dangerous times, 4 attempted child abductions this week in Dublin alone, fire attacks in North and South, Children molested in Swords etc....but we can't walk around acting hard unless we are willing to inflict maximun pain...so walk around with your martial/sports art knowledge/mindset and deal with trouble as much as you have to and leave the whole de-balling alone...it's a healthier mental attitude...that stops the whole - I'm a victim unless I can kill mentallity.....

My two cents hope it helps if not disregard it.....

take care of yourself and each other!!!


:cool:

Dyr

One often see's people pointing out the potential legal pitfalls of doing stuff like biting/gouging balls/crushing eyes/ chinese burns etc. Heres a tangent to that: AFAIR the most common cause of death in street altercations is the back of the head being impacted off the ground. Now what techniques are most likely to cause someone to fall backwards and strike their heads off the ground? IMO hard headshots and takedowns/legsweeps. I think ive heard bouncer types (geoff thompson??) advocating grabbing people if they fall backwards from a hard dig.


Is it possible that those who criticise the RBSD snarl-bite-rip approach might themselves be training techniques which are more likely to be fatal in a real encounter?

This was just brought home to me last night because i saw a drunk homeless guy knock himself out . He staggered backwards a good 7-10 steps before falling slowly onto his back and even then, he managed to smack his head off the ground, knocking himelf out out like a light and was still unconscious when my bus pulled out about 5 minutes later.

Dermot Nolan

Very good point about head-shots and takedowns. I would agree that "outside" these are very likely to cause someone a dangerous injury from banging their head.

But............................

Bambi wrote:

knocking himelf out out like a light and was still unconscious when my bus pulled out about 5 minutes later.

Holy sh*t, would you not have seen if he was alright??

Dyr

I was actually sitting upstairs on a bus on o'connell street when i saw it happen. I didnt have a phone on me so i couldnt call an ambulance and frankly i didnt fancy hauling my gear off a packed bus just to ask someone to phone the poor fecker an ambulance. Funny thing was that he was surrounded by people all whom just stood there looking confused. One idiot actually took his phone out.... to take pictures. Eventually an oul wan went over to him and then rang for an ambulance, well i presume thats what she was ringing for.


Anyway the first time i helped a wino who fell over and split himself he started swinging at me when i stood him up. And then there was the other fecker i helped up and got an ambulance for who wound up trying to bribe me to go witness for him in his claim against the corpo:mad:. The milk of human kindness has since curdled in bambi on this issue lol

gymrabbit

Bambi wrote:

The milk of human kindness has since curdled in bambi on this issue lol

lol

47MartialMan

So, is this a case of "All's Fair in War and Pierce///Piece"

astfgl

Bambi wrote:

Is it possible that those who criticise the RBSD snarl-bite-rip approach might themselves be training techniques which are more likely to be fatal in a real encounter?

I think you are missing my point. I dont agree with the RBSD approach, not because its dangerous, but because of the mindset it gives people when they fight. If you have to bite, gouge, poke in a fight, do it (i.e. if your survival or someone elses depends on it). Dont go into a fight thinking of these as your first defense.
I know striking/takedowns are just as, or more dangerous than RBSD in a street fight (this can make them more effective?), but the intention is to knockout or injure superficiously (ie leave bruises not gaping eye sockets).

Millionaire

bites and eye pokes are in RBSD, but they are not the 1st line of defence.

RBSD uses punches and strikes. (palm shot, open hand strikes), knees, elbows, thai clinch etc

You'll find in a real situation, all intentions go out the window, in fact it happens that fast, you will not have time for intentions.

Dermot Nolan

Bambi wrote:

I was actually sitting upstairs on a bus on o'connell street when i saw it happen. I didnt have a phone on me so i couldnt call an ambulance and frankly i didnt fancy hauling my gear off a packed bus just to ask someone to phone the poor fecker an ambulance. Funny thing was that he was surrounded by people all whom just stood there looking confused. One idiot actually took his phone out.... to take pictures. Eventually an oul wan went over to him and then rang for an ambulance, well i presume thats what she was ringing for.


Anyway the first time i helped a wino who fell over and split himself he started swinging at me when i stood him up. And then there was the other fecker i helped up and got an ambulance for who wound up trying to bribe me to go witness for him in his claim against the corpo:mad:. The milk of human kindness has since curdled in bambi on this issue lol

Sorry, i read it like you were standing close by when it happened not on the bus the whole time. My mistake

astfgl

Millionaire wrote:

bites and eye pokes are in RBSD, but they are not the 1st line of defence.

RBSD uses punches and strikes. (palm shot, open hand strikes), knees, elbows, thai clinch etc.

I didn't mean for this thread to target RBSD, it actually came about from hearing people from different TMAs talk about these moves as the be-all and end-all in martial arts (think "five-point palm exploding heart technique" type moves)

Millionaire wrote:

You'll find in a real situation, all intentions go out the window, in fact it happens that fast, you will not have time for intentions.

Few fights go from 0 to knockout in 2 or 3 seconds, they usually esculate from vebal arguments where one or more parties get too hot headed to back down (due to alcohol, ego etc).

astfgl

Looking at this from the point of view of actual effectiveness.....
Some (not all) MAs seem to think that biting, eye gouging etc are the answer to grappling, ie when wrestler, judoka, bjjer grabs you, go for the eyes, throat etc.
There is no reason why said wrestler, judoka, bjjer cant do the same to you. In fact,being grapplers, they are going to be better at holding you down while they do it.

Millionaire

astfgl wrote:

Few fights go from 0 to knockout in 2 or 3 seconds, they usually esculate from vebal arguments where one or more parties get too hot headed to back down (due to alcohol, ego etc).

Yes, I know, I've been in a quite a few. (unfortunately)

Still, in my experience, it still does not matter, it happens to fast you have no time to think. especially if he nails you first with a few, and your fighting off the "back leg".

at this stage its all mental anyway, and its sheer aggression that will turn the situation around. To be bruatally honest, again in my experience, (and I would have handy enough boxing punches, power, speed), technique goes out of the window, and its all going to be extremely scrappy.

however, if you are trained in pre fight, desculation skills, hard verbal desculation (where you psyc the potential attacker out), The Fence, and
if it looks like a fight is going to happen anyway, Pre-emptive strikes. Its usually over for attacker in seconds. Thats means in very basically, you nail him before he nails you. (I ve worked this beofore too).

Its very easy to say, in a real street fight, I d do this or that and not do the other. and as I said all that goes out the window when it kicks off.

Now when I was fighting kickboxing in the ring, its much easier to plan, have a "fight strategy", maybe you notice everytime he kicks, he drops his hands a bit, so when kick comes you move in, and nail him with a right etc....

but out on the street, it will never work like that.

Khannie

Following on from that Mill: Do you think that your MT training would help much in a street fight situation?

edit: Another thing; There's a lot of talk about the effectiveness of pre-emptive striking in combatives from the little I've read. I considered a pre-emptive strike recently myself (I had the perfect opportunity and was heavily outnumbered and was unsure of the risk of taking a beating). As it turned out, there was no need to (I decided not to and the situation calmed down). Pre-emptive striking surely lands people in court unnecessarily, no?

Millionaire

MT definately helps! MT is one of the best systems on this planet for learning to fight effective. I am not an expert on MT, but I train daily, and I highly recommend it.

To give MT or anything else a street edge, the likes of Geoff Thompsons real Punching 3 DVD set, offers some slight modfications for the street, however the basics remain the same.

I 've seen Thais fight on the street, and their straight in with the elbows, and knees.

to me Combatives/RBSD is more or less MT without the gloves, a few open handed strikes, and the Psych pre fight stuff thrown in. Thats Combatives Gerry Nolan style!

Yes your definately right to not have fought those guys. If there is more than one or two good chance your going to be fu*ked if your on your own with no backup.

I had the same situatuon with 6 last year, and I had no choice as 2 attacked at once. Took guy No 1 out no probs, but the other 5 tried to beat me to death on the street. luckily I was able to protect head and vital areas.

Yes, pre emptive strike could land you in trouble, depends on the situation. I am no expert on the legals. Then again sometimes your better take a chance, than being left in a coma...IMO.

Black Swan

It would seem from what many have said that MA is no longer martial (war)? Should it now be called something else? Sport Fighting Arts? What?

When I fight on the mat (often) or street (twice in 11 years), I think I am at war. Only the rules of engagement are different.


.

gymrabbit

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

It would seem from what many have said that MA is no longer martial (war)? Should it now be called something else? Sport? What?

When I fight on the matt (often) or street (twice in 11 years), I think I am at war. Only the rules of engagement are different.

I don't bring a "win at all costs" attitude to tournaments. Perhaps that's why I don't win any....

Black Swan

gymrabbit wrote:

I don't bring a "win at all costs" attitude to tournaments. Perhaps that's why I don't win any....

You did not read the qualifying statement? "Only the rules of engagement are different"? For example, vale tudo and Olympic WTF rules are very different.

gymrabbit

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

You did not read the qualifying statement? "Only the rules of engagement are different"?

Yes and by that I thought you just meant you wouldn't actually kill someone etc.

47MartialMan

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

It would seem from what many have said that MA is no longer martial (war)? Should it now be called something else? Sport Fighting Arts? What?

When I fight on the mat (often) or street (twice in 11 years), I think I am at war. Only the rules of engagement are different.

.

I agree. but it can be hard to get the body to respond to two different situations/environment.