Live PLO Hand

ianmc38

SE Round of Each.

Effective stacks are 550.

Standard preflop raise to 10. I call from the cutoff with

AdQdJs6s

Flop (70)

K66 rainbow

Checked to me and I bet 50.

4 callers. They are Oberon who I'm 95% positive has AA, an American guy who plays ok and Harold who's on the button. Everyone has been raising KK/AA/QQ preflop and Obi is one to my right, so i'm pretty certain KK isn't out there.

Turn (270)

2

Checked to me again.

So check or bet. If we decide to bet, how much?

ligger

ianmc38 wrote:

SE Round of Each.

Effective stacks are 550.

Standard preflop raise to 10. I call from the cutoff with

AdQdJs6s

Flop (70)

Only 7 to the flop. Tight game for the SE that.

spectre

Harold calling a bet is tantamount to him having the Nuts. You should know this by now

bops

what's beating you?
KK K6 62 22

If you feel you are ahead I'd pot it now - maybe I play omaha all wrong, but I like to turn the screw when i'm ahead.

Rather take down 250 than loose it all OTR

El Stuntman

can't believe I'm agreeing with Bops

Flipper

First off, I would raise from the cut-off with these cards. Obviously, you want to thin the field but also to steal the button.

On the flop, there's no reason to believe you're behind. KK would surely have re-raised so except for someone having the K6, your A6 is a long way ahead.

I would have potted the flop and even with 4 callers, the 2 is unlikely to have helped anyone - only 22 and 62 are now beating you. If it comes back to me again on the turn, I would bet the full amount and try to finish it there. A good player could even drop the remaining 6 making you huge favourite if anyone else (AA perhaps) stays in.

If the AA guy is known to get married to Aces, then you might get paid off.... Unlikely, but stranger things have happened. People who make the transition from Texas to Omaha typically think that Aces up is a monster.

If you did that, I couldn't see the hand going any further. A check could be disasterous because anyone with a pocket pair could fill a concealed house on the river and you might be forced to pay them off.

What happened?

cardshark202

Don't bet the turn, it's suicidal. Check. Besides Oberon might decide to bluff the river with AA, he's addicted to bluffing almost every hand after all.

luckyvegas7

think we can rule out 22 here. KKK or K6 only hand id be worried about. Im not to sure about checking the turn here cardshack as pp may hit. Im inclined to 3/4 pot the turn, check call river.

ianmc38

Flipper wrote:

First off, I would raise from the cut-off with these cards. Obviously, you want to thin the field but also to steal the button.

The reason I didn't raise was I was fairly certain that someone had aces.

Flipper wrote:

On the flop, there's no reason to believe you're behind. KK would surely have re-raised so except for someone having the K6, your A6 is a long way ahead.

I would have potted the flop and even with 4 callers, the 2 is unlikely to have helped anyone - only 22 and 62 are now beating you. If it comes back to me again on the turn, I would bet the full amount and try to finish it there. A good player could even drop the remaining 6 making you huge favourite if anyone else (AA perhaps) stays in.

If the AA guy is known to get married to Aces, then you might get paid off.... Unlikely, but stranger things have happened. People who make the transition from Texas to Omaha typically think that Aces up is a monster.

I don't mind my bet size on the flop. I wont always bet the full pot. Sometimes i'll bet half-pot on a dry board like that when I have a strong holding.

I agree with your thinking about the turn. It's an abolsute brick. It's rare to never that someone has gotten there with 22xx. 26xx is definitely possible.

Your logic about finishing the hand now is confusing me somewhat. Why do we want to finish the hand early if we think we have the better hand? Is a full pot bet for value, a semi-bluff or what?

There is 270 in the pot. If i bet 270, then I will have no fold equity should somebody go for a checkraise all-in and I could be drawing to 3 outs if some has K6. I dont expect Mr AA will call. He is a good player and certainly wouldn't overplay AAxx. I'm sure he called my flop bet because of the 3 other callers and the implied odds of hitting the case ace on the turn.

Flipper wrote:

If you did that, I couldn't see the hand going any further. A check could be disasterous because anyone with a pocket pair could fill a concealed house on the river and you might be forced to pay them off.

I don't think anyone is calling my flop bet with worse than Kxxx/AAxx/6xxx.
If anyone was to call a pot size turn bet I would nearly always check behind on the river with a lone 6.

ianmc38

Results aren't important. The optimal line for 4th street is what I'm trying to find here.

Flipper

ianmc38 wrote:

The reason I didn't raise was I was fairly certain that someone had aces.

How were you fairly certain of this? You said the raise to 10 was standard??? If you can read this just by looking at people, I don't ever want to play with you!

ianmc38 wrote:

I don't mind my bet size on the flop. I wont always bet the full pot. Sometimes i'll bet half-pot on a dry board like that when I have a strong holding.

I wouldn't consider ANY board to be "dry" with 7 players in the pot. I'd be 95% sure I was ahead here... No reason not to bet 50-70 but I like a strong pot bet. Why give cheap cards? The last thing you want is for the next person to start a stream of 6 callers!

ianmc38 wrote:

I agree with your thinking about the turn. It's an abolsute brick. It's rare to never that someone has gotten there with 22xx. 26xx is definitely possible.
Your logic about finishing the hand now is confusing me somewhat. Why do we want to finish the hand early if we think we have the better hand? Is a full pot bet for value, a semi-bluff or what?

I'd like to finish it because any hand that stays in (and I've seen just high pairs go all the way at this point) could possibly make a house and you would never be able to get away at that point. Also, you would want to lose 6xxx in the process. Again, if they make a house on the river, YOU will end up paying THEM off. You're not exactly playing deep-stacked poker and why not just take the 270 in there now? You probably won't get another pot (or all-in more like) called on the river anyway. I think if you had 3,000 in front of you, this play could require more thought.

ianmc38 wrote:

There is 270 in the pot. If i bet 270, then I will have no fold equity should somebody go for a checkraise all-in and I could be drawing to 3 outs if some has K6. I dont expect Mr AA will call. He is a good player and certainly wouldn't overplay AAxx. I'm sure he called my flop bet because of the 3 other callers and the implied odds of hitting the case ace on the turn.

I thought we had already made our mind up that we were ahead? If you get check raised, it's probably 62xx or 22xx (as we've discounted KK due to the pre-flop play) and you still have 9 outs on the river. Push it in. You'd have too much committed at this point. After all, it's a cash game so you always have a chance to reload.

ianmc38 wrote:

I don't think anyone is calling my flop bet with worse than Kxxx/AAxx/6xxx. If anyone was to call a pot size turn bet I would nearly always check behind on the river with a lone 6.

I think if there's just one caller this is definately true but if a wave of calling you 50 bet starts, there could be a variety of hands out there. You said you got 4 callers after all. What do you think they all had?

Finally, if you get called and have a chance to check out the river (bar making quad 6's), I'd take it.

cardshark202

The fact you have four callers on the flop makes it quite likely that you could be drawing dead. KKxx and 6xxx could both be out there. And if you are quite sure Oberon has AAxx, then if someone has K6xx, you are again drawing to one out if he folds the turn. I would check here and if checked to on the river, I might try get some value there.

ianmc38

Flipper wrote:

How were you fairly certain of this? You said the raise to 10 was standard??? If you can read this just by looking at people, I don't ever want to play with you!

I wouldn't consider ANY board to be "dry" with 7 players in the pot. I'd be 95% sure I was ahead here... No reason not to bet 50-70 but I like a strong pot bet. Why give cheap cards? The last thing you want is for the next person to start a stream of 6 callers!

I'd like to finish it because any hand that stays in (and I've seen just high pairs go all the way at this point) could possibly make a house and you would never be able to get away at that point. Also, you would want to lose 6xxx in the process. Again, if they make a house on the river, YOU will end up paying THEM off. You're not exactly playing deep-stacked poker and why not just take the 270 in there now? You probably won't get another pot (or all-in more like) called on the river anyway. I think if you had 3,000 in front of you, this play could require more thought.

I thought we had already made our mind up that we were ahead? If you get check raised, it's probably 62xx or 22xx (as we've discounted KK due to the pre-flop play) and you still have 9 outs on the river. Push it in. You'd have too much committed at this point. After all, it's a cash game so you always have a chance to reload.

I think if there's just one caller this is definately true but if a wave of calling you 50 bet starts, there could be a variety of hands out there. You said you got 4 callers after all. What do you think they all had?

Finally, if you get called and have a chance to check out the river (bar making quad 6's), I'd take it.

Cheers Kieran, I was just being devils advocate to generate some discussion on the hand. I was also interested from your point of view as I know you've played alot more plo than i have.

Obviously I couldnt be certain oberon had AA but he had only raised once in 4orbits of Omaha which is bizarre for him and that time he was reraising preflop with AA.

The board is as dry as they come in Omaha. No flush draw, no straight draw and a small pair with one broadway card. Personally i wouldnt see 50 into a pot of 70 as a cheap card. If someone has a lone king/AA/any other pocket pair, they're getting 120-50 to hit a 2-outer, 170-50 if there's one caller and so on. Furthermore, the implied odds (vs me) if they hit are close to zero. I wont pay off if a king or ace hits. By them calling 50 they are making a mistake (IMHO)

Without Sideshow Bob at the table, I could never imagine JJ/QQ/TT calling a pot size bet without a king or a 6 as one of their other cards. If they did have that tendency I would be more than happy to bet 1/3rd pot on the turn to induce a call from them. Again, by doing so they are making a fundamental error. I would hate to think that I'm scaring QQxx or Oberons AA out of the pot on the turn by pumping it to the max. I'm sure we could derive a fairly basic EV equation that shows a smaller bet is much better vs those hands (if they were face up of course).

If I get checkraised it's more than likely a boat. 62/K6 being most probable, maybe something like K22x. If it's K6 then I've 3 outs on the river (1-outer if my read is correct)

My thinking on the 4 callers was AAxx, Kxxx, 6xxx and ?

Flipper

ianmc38 wrote:

Cheers Kieran, I was just being devils advocate to generate some discussion on the hand. I was also interested from your point of view as I know you've played alot more plo than i have.

Obviously I couldnt be certain oberon had AA but he had only raised once in 4orbits of Omaha which is bizarre for him and that time he was reraising preflop with AA.

The board is as dry as they come in Omaha. No flush draw, no straight draw and a small pair with one broadway card. Personally i wouldnt see 50 into a pot of 70 as a cheap card. If someone has a lone king/AA/any other pocket pair, they're getting 120-50 to hit a 2-outer, 170-50 if there's one caller and so on. Furthermore, the implied odds (vs me) if they hit are close to zero. I wont pay off if a king or ace hits. By them calling 50 they are making a mistake (IMHO)

I really like your thinking here but I think it' more applicable to big-stack omaha. With only 550 in front of you at the start of the hand, I think I'd lean towards my play.

ianmc38 wrote:

Without Sideshow Bob at the table, I could never imagine JJ/QQ/TT calling a pot size bet without a king or a 6 as one of their other cards. If they did have that tendency I would be more than happy to bet 1/3rd pot on the turn to induce a call from them. Again, by doing so they are making a fundamental error. I would hate to think that I'm scaring QQxx or Oberons AA out of the pot on the turn by pumping it to the max. I'm sure we could derive a fairly basic EV equation that shows a smaller bet is much better vs those hands (if they were face up of course).

LOL @ Bob! Funny you should mention him... Myself and Daithio played a hand against him recently on Full Tilt not dislike this one (although, we did have a made hand - 994x on a 4s9s4c board). What was interesting was how we induced him into staying for a flush and consequently making broadway. I'll have a look for the hand history and post it.

I sound like a broken record, but there's already 270 in there and with you having a relatively small stack, I'd rather just take the 270 now on a semi-bluff.

ianmc38 wrote:

If I get checkraised it's more than likely a boat. 62/K6 being most probable, maybe something like K22x. If it's K6 then I've 3 outs on the river (1-outer if my read is correct)

My thinking on the 4 callers was AAxx, Kxxx, 6xxx and ?

you're probably right on what the 4 callers had. I wouldn't rule out QQ from a weak player either.

During my time playing Omaha i've found that these decisions can often be very marginal. As an example of how marginal it is mathematically, there's even a theory about folding the under-full house on the flop against 2 others as you're only 38% to win. I would see myself getting my money in here every time in a cash game but maybe not in a tourney (where I'm out if I'm wrong/outdrawn, I'm out). You'd be just plain unlucky to lose here.

reilly110

ding ding ding
HAROLD IN THE HAND !!!!!
ALMOST CERTAINLY HAS A HOUSE ALREADY -MOST PROBABLY KK

ianmc38

Flipper wrote:

LOL @ Bob! Funny you should mention him... Myself and Daithio played a hand against him recently on Full Tilt not dislike this one (although, we did have a made hand - 994x on a 4s9s4c board). What was interesting was how we induced him into staying for a flush and consequently making broadway. I'll have a look for the hand history and post it.

Lol. He's a funny character. Bloody madman.

What's his name on FT?

Flipper

same as betfair. Laminator. It's funny when he sucks out and starts screaming "you have been laminated!!!!"

So this Harold guy is tight? That's why Dave Doyle was SHOUTING about being the new Harold when I saw him folding AT in late position over in Singapore

cardshark202

Flipper wrote:

same as betfair. Laminator. It's funny when he sucks out and starts screaming "you have been laminated!!!!"

So this Harold guy is tight? That's why Dave Doyle was SHOUTING about being the new Harold when I saw him folding AT in late position over in Singapore

The man is so tight I almost folded the nut house against him........ in holdem!

BigCityBanker

Flipper wrote:

So this Harold guy is tight? That's why Dave Doyle was SHOUTING about being the new Harold when I saw him folding AT in late position over in Singapore

Doyle does this alot more than his image may present. I pushed MP in a tourney one night - 2 tables left - i needed to steel blinds and squeeze a few hands - Dave sitting to my immediate left shows me AQo and folds saying "you see how much respect I have for you - I wouldnt play that crap anyway" - I had pushed with A9 so was obviously delighted - he had me covered 2 to 1 in chips at a minimum and as my push got through I went on to win the tourney.. Phew..

Edit: Harold is a rock - as somebody rightly said a few weeks ago on here - he is about the only player you could play holdem against and you wouldnt ever have to look at your cards.

Benglian

reilly110 wrote:

ding ding ding
HAROLD IN THE HAND !!!!!
ALMOST CERTAINLY HAS A HOUSE ALREADY -MOST PROBABLY KK

Seconded.

Samba

Shudder - Harold is in the hand, just fold now don't even bother checking.

imalegend

think i was at this table in seat 2 and i think harold did have kk as far as i can remember.....is this the night be4 the full tilt event??

RoundTower

This hand makes no sense, but I would check now.

Gholimoli

Ian,
with Harold calling your flop bet on that flop,you know well what the optimal line is now.
it would have been different if it was some1 else,but Harold has called a bet on that bored which means 85% he has KK and the other 15% he has K6.

ianmc38

Oh forgot about this hand. Iamalegend no you wern't there. I was playing a round of each with you a few weeks ago.... This was Thursday in the SE.

One thing about Harold is that believe it or not he's started really loosening up. He called a €60 bet (pot) on a 56x board with 78s in a cash game a few weeks with me. He's also started playing lots of shít hands for raises. I think everyone calling him a rock has finally gotten to him.

I bet just over half the pot and Harold folded. American guy shoved and I thought about it and eventually folded. Was pretty annoyed with how I played the hand afterwards and tilted off most of my nights profit as a result.