3/6nl, 2pair OOP

willis

3/6nl 6ahnded

CO makes it 12.hes solid TAG with $450. Button calls, hes a calling station total idiot fish with $1.5k stack. I call from sb with 57suited and $650, bb calls.

Flop(48): 578 rainbow

I check, bb check, TAG bets 48, clown calls, I make it 148.

Is this the best line? What % of the time should I be leading here?

Anyway, TAG pumps allin, Clown calls, I fold…is this easy fold yeah?

5starpool

I think you are ahead here, as it seems TAG has an overpair, and the button might have anything from A8/A6/86 to a variety of other hands, a lot of which you beat. Of course there are a lot of scare cards that can come for you.

ligger

The CO min raised what do we think he has? Big pair maybe. Do we care about trying to put the calling station on a hand. He could be drawing to a gut shot. I think you have the best of it here unless you are facing 88 as you know where 2 7's and 2 5's are. Do you feel you are folding the best hand?

Disclaimer I can't afford 3/6 so what do I know anyway.

El Stuntman

against 2 players, I have to give 1 of them credit for the set (or the str8 for the eejit)

good fold imo

StraddleFor6

I lead here everytime. Standard fold. TAG has min raised...could be 69, 78, AA. Clown is probably calling here wit a 6...No way you can call and expect to be ahead/hold up enough times for it to be $$$.

BigCityBanker

El Stuntman wrote:

against 2 players, I have to give 1 of them credit for the set (or the str8 for the eejit)

good fold imo

I agree with the stuntman here.


PS. Mr Stuntman - Check out Monoceros in Thurles 2.15.

azzeretti

willis wrote:

3/6nl 6ahnded

CO makes it 12.hes solid TAG with $450. Button calls, hes a calling station total idiot fish with $1.5k stack. I call from sb with 57suited and $650, bb calls.

Flop(48): 578 rainbow

I check, bb check, TAG bets 48, clown calls, I make it 148.

Is this the best line? What % of the time should I be leading here?

Anyway, TAG pumps allin, Clown calls, I fold…is this easy fold yeah?

With a min raise preflop from the CO, I would CR mostly from this position on that board.

In this instance you could have the CO on a coule of possible hands. An overpair or possibly a set. Have you any info on how he has been playing low pairs pre flop from this position (he would most likely play it stronger 6 handed- no?) Would he pot a flopped set?

As for the "Clown" he could be chasing, A6 perhaps. I wouldn't to overly concerned about him.

Calling really depends on any reads you might have on the TAG. I might lay this down here until I got better info.

ianmc38

I think leading is better than check-raise. Probably fold now.

Bandana boy

i wouldnt say easy fold but i think a fold is good if this is an overpair he will try again and we will catch him at it although i suspect he has 99

ianmc38

I suspect he has 88. In the last 2k hands or so I played at 1/2 on Tribeca, I saw ridiculous amount of min-raising preflop with small-medium pocket pairs.

bops

serves you right calling min raises with 57 oop (Ive seen the light lol)

Tag has 88 / KK
Clown has Str8 or at least a 6 (he will win anyway- they always do)

I wouldn't check the flop

Easy Fold

(someday i'll get one of these right...God loves a trier!)

ligger

ianmc38 wrote:

I suspect he has 88. In the last 2k hands or so I played at 1/2 on Tribeca, I saw ridiculous amount of min-raising preflop with small-medium pocket pairs.

Stop doing it then..

NickyOD

I don't think this is as sraight forward a fold as everyone makes out. TAG's hand seems pretty clear. Overpair for me for sure.

If the idiots range is wide enough to include top pair like K8/A8 and a straight draw then this is a clear call. You wouldn't fold bottom 2 against this player HU so why now?

Definitely lead the flop.

valor

NickyOD wrote:

I don't think this is as sraight forward a fold as everyone makes out. TAG's hand seems pretty clear. Overpair for me for sure.

why cant he have a set?

StraddleFor6

TAG was check raised. If he's solid, like it says he is, then he's not pushing with an overpair. Minimum 2 pair.

NickyOD

valor wrote:

why cant he have a set?

He's not a solid player because he min raised preflop, and even if this is 3/6 this is tribecca and untypical of the way a set would be played. I'm not saying he would check the flop, but I doubt he'd bet pot. I think he has Aces.

valor

I think this is a really easy fold

From my experience of 3/6 there its far more likely a set than an overpair, and even calling station clowns pick up hands

Gholimoli

i cant believe the amount of ppl preaching a fold here.
why fold?
what do you think the TAG would do here with JJ+???
do you think he would just fold to our CR?
the flop has more than likely missed him .
and the other dude has a wide range so we are ahead of his range as well.
that board is also full of draws which makes the butter more likely to call with a draw.
i would call here expecting to be ahead alot.
however i would not get there like you.
dont check the flop.
checking the flop is bad becuase yo have a strong hand.check raising is a strong move matching your strong hand which will tend to terminate the hand prematurely.
if you lead you will more than likely get raised by an over pair which is what you want really.the only thing is your hand streanght will remain hidden .

StraddleFor6

With Clown to your right and it being the scariest possible board for your set, I think betting pot is not a bad play.

NickyOD

StraddleFor6 wrote:

With Clown to your right and it being the scariest possible board for your set, I think betting pot is not a bad play.

Of course it is, but so called TAG min raised preflop. Now he's betting pot. It doesn't add up to a set for me.

StraddleFor6

Gholimoli wrote:

why fold?


Because you're behind: or are favourite to be behind at the end of the hand.

Gholimoli

StraddleFor6 wrote:

Gholimoli wrote:

why fold?


Because you're behind: or are favourite to be behind at the end of the hand.

what makes you think your behind?or even an underdog in the hand?

jimbling

no way it's an easy fold. And even if you think it is, it's most certainly not because of TAG.
TAG is screaming high pair. (I would also have difficulty believing that this player is TAG at all)

I would be worried about the clown though. there is a large number of hands he can have that will beat you.

StraddleFor6

If it was heads up with TAG, there may be cause for a call, depending on how it was played. However, Clown has decided his cards are good enough to call a bet, followed by a check raise and an all in. I don't care how clownish he is, he has a big piece of the flop...at worst a lone 6.

And its not even top 2 pair. Its bottom 2 pair...with 2 all in's in front of you. Fold.

El Stuntman

BigCityBanker wrote:

PS. Mr Stuntman - Check out Monoceros in Thurles 2.15.

very interesting indeed

must be the weight of your money?

BigCityBanker

El Stuntman wrote:

very interesting indeed

must be the weight of your money?

disappointing to say the least.

El Stuntman

thankfully I exercised some discipline in my betting strategy

I only sold one kidney to back it

ianmc38

When a solid player is prepared to put in 75BB on a scary board against a clown and a good player who has checkraised from the blinds, then I start to get worried about bottom 2 pair.

bops

Attempt # 2:

TAG has AA:
he decides to get clown off draw and you off medium/strong holding...
Clown misses draw
...you're gutted!!

I love this game of what happens next!!
Was somebody looking for advice here??

Hectorjelly

this is a tough hand

AmarilloFats

If he has JJ+ , he ceases to be a TAG.
IF he really is a TAG, he does not have JJ+
Mutually exclusive in this spot.


Good fold, all day.
Often you'll be looking for runner runner quads to win....

Rnger

save yourself a sh!t storm and fold preflop

Ste05

Tricky one.

I agree with Nicky here, I'd say the TAG (who can't be that solid if he min raises from the CO) has an over pair. The idiot could have anything.

I'd probably push All-In here I think, that way there's at least a 400 side pot with the idiot, that I'd expect to win, and then hopefully we have decent equity in the main pot. Where I'd say the TAG's range is mostly made up of over pairs with some sets thrown in there too.

Tricky one though [EDIT: alot of my decision would be based on how the TAG views us but with my style the above is what I'd do...]

Bp!

I cant see myself gettin away from the hand on the flop. TAG can very easily overplay 99+ here and im willin to gamble with the clown that we're in front.

Add in if TAG has set, and clown does have the numpty 6 then we should be in good shape for a $500 side pot which will ease the pain a bit

StraddleFor6

At best...at best, its an over pair and lone 6. Someone work out the % of bottom two pair holding up against these two hands.

ianmc38

There ya go:

Board: 5c 7d 8h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 18.1782 % 17.52% 00.66% { 99+ }
Hand 2: 43.8096 % 43.20% 00.61% { 75s }
Hand 3: 38.0122 % 37.33% 00.68% { 66, A6s, K6s, Q6s, J6s, T6s, 96s, 86s, 76s, 62s+, A6o, K6o, Q6o, J6o, T6o, 96o, 86o, 76o, 62o+ }

Only time I can think we're ahead here is if solid guy is making a move to isolate against the fish who he thinks is drawing/has one pair, but as Amarillo said, we'll often be drawing to running quads here.

Ste05

Ye I did a similar calc and thought we had about 38-40% Equity in the Main Pot...

AmarilloFats

Ste05 wrote:

Ye I did a similar calc and thought we had about 38-40% Equity in the Main Pot...

Yeah best case scenario..

But if you pokerstove (ianmc!)Best case scenario ---all the way --to Worst case scenario and realistic combos in between I think we'd find we did not have sufficient equity as the ranges are substantially weighted in favour of worst case scenarios!!

But if you really think TAGLOL has 99+ alot and Baggy pantaloons has crap here enough to tilt the scales.........

BigCityBanker

Me I find a better opportunity and fold on this occasion, others ship it in.

When HectorJelly is not in a position to suggest a best line I think its fair to say the only way to play this hand is in line with your normal play. If you like to gambooool then ship it.. if you like better opportunities then fold.

Can fuzzbox please give his preferred line when he gets a chance.

bops

Best case scenario:
(Attempt #3)

Maybe you have TAG all wrong

TAG AK - Thinks he can get both of you off the hand (got you off anyway!!)
Clown A8 - Maybe not such an idoit after all!!

Clown takes it down with a pair of 8's

(Ok that's pushin it - but i've seen it before)

(Sorry but v bored today)

AmarilloFats

BigCityBanker wrote:

Me I find a better opportunity and fold on this occasion, others ship it in.
... If you like to gambooool then ship it.. if you like better opportunities then fold.

:eek:
I disagree with your sentiments...

MrPillowTalk

You have made this decision difficult by not leading the flop, as played I dont know its an either or I dont think calling or folding are bad plays here.

ianmc38

bops wrote:

TAG AK - Thinks he can get both of you off the hand (got you off anyway!!)
Clown A8 - Maybe not such an idoit after all!!

Clown takes it down with a pair of 8's

What you lack in poker fundamentals you make up in hand reading skills. Nice!

Bp!

Going by the fact the SB is "a calling station total idiot fish" it takes the pressure of our hand as we beat alot of his hands and if ours holds up against his then we can avoid losin our stack.

Add in theres a chance (be it small if the TAG is good) that we're up against his overpair , its a pretty tough spot but it seems like a call for me more times than a fold

willis

Great discussion lads. I really think i should have lead here,mostly i do but this time i went for cr

The TAG allin really threw me, i couldnt see how he could do this with just an overpair. I reckoned it was a set or 87. His minraise was very very strange and usually when a TAG does this its usually suited connectors/mid pairs and the likes,as its just a pot building bet. The clown, whilst terrible,i cant see how he could just call with a lone 6 here,surely hes not that bad i thought!

Results: I folded, TAG shows a mingingly played QQ, Clown showed 76 for pair and openender, and he hit.

BtW, some great analysis of his range, and the guys saying call, well your balls/reads are way bigger/better than mine!

As pointed out, a lead might have saved me tough decisions, but you cant lead every single time imo

azzeretti

willis wrote:

As pointed out, a lead might have saved me tough decisions, but you cant lead every single time imo

What you talking 'bout Willis?

I agree on this one, ordinarily leading is the best option. The initial min raise from CO here would entice me into CR.

Good fold in the end.

jimbling

willis wrote:

Great discussion lads. I really think i should have lead here,mostly i do but this time i went for cr

The TAG allin really threw me, i couldnt see how he could do this with just an overpair. I reckoned it was a set or 87. His minraise was very very strange and usually when a TAG does this its usually suited connectors/mid pairs and the likes,as its just a pot building bet. The clown, whilst terrible,i cant see how he could just call with a lone 6 here,surely hes not that bad i thought!

Results: I folded, TAG shows a mingingly played QQ, Clown showed 76 for pair and openender, and he hit.

BtW, some great analysis of his range, and the guys saying call, well your balls/reads are way bigger/better than mine!

As pointed out, a lead might have saved me tough decisions, but you cant lead every single time imo

hmmm... I'm confused as to your definition of a TAG. I would not have thought they go around min-raising with suited connectors and the like... woudl that not be more LAG than TAG??

to be honest, thats pretty much what I thought clown would have too. My first impression was 6 and a pair.
He's either a complete clown and thinks TAG has AK or something.. or else, and more likely, he realises TAG has an overpair, but also thinks you will call (due to your raise) giving him some extra odds to play the draw..... gamblers love to play draws.

Gholimoli

i dont like a check raise at all.
if you had somethig like an OESD then i would say check/raise.
basically in the above case your hoping for a fold but you have something to fall back on if you dont get the fold.with the CR you are saying im strong and a natural reaction to that is a fold.when you actually have a strong hand then you dont want opponents to show that natural reaction and fold .you dont want to make them uncomfortable thinking "hey he check/raised i may be behind then ..." you want them to think that their QQ is ahead.
if you lead here ,villain would think "well i can beat anything up to JJ and if e had KK,AA he would have raised pre-flop ,hence im ahead so im gonna raise it..." which is exactly what you want.
also what you said about your read of "solid players minraising with SC" is not a good read .i realy dont know of any solid ,TAG or otherwise player minraising with SC or anything for that matter.
specially not pen minraise from the CO.

bops

nice laydown willis

idiot calling station fish clown with over 2k on a 3/6 table - there is a lesson to be learned here me thinks!!

Do you remember his name willis?? (cough cough!!)

Ste05

The main thing here to remember is this isn't a tournament, and if you're properly BR'ed to play at the level, then this is quite a decent little spot. The main pot is $1,350, we then have a side pot with an idiot calling station of $400.

Once the idiot doesn't have a set then I think this is a call, That is the absolute worst case scenario, and I wouldn't expect to see it too often TBH, we have one of the 5's and one of the 7's. So he can only have one of 5 exact holdings to make a set, his range is quite large here, he could easily have TP, a 6 (I took out 62 and 63), top 2, maybe even a straight, but if you put all those hands into PokerStove then we have about 56% equity in the side pot:

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

125,730 games 0.062 secs 2,027,903 games/sec

Board: 7c 5d 8h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 56.1374 % 54.73% 01.41% { 7s5s }
Hand 2: 43.8626 % 42.46% 01.41% { 88-55, 64s+, A8o, A6o, K8o, K6o, Q6o, J6o, T6o, 96o, 86o+, 76o }


Then we look at the main pot and if we put the TAG on a pair over 55, (i.e. a set, up and down or an over pair) on top of the same holdings for the Idiot, we have about 39% equity in the main pot.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

4,787,706 games 3.016 secs 1,587,435 games/sec

Board: 7c 5d 8h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 38.6817 % 38.00% 00.68% { 7s5s }
Hand 2: 37.7663 % 36.34% 01.42% { 88-55, 64s+, A8o, A6o, K8o, K6o, Q6o, J6o, T6o, 96o, 86o+, 76o }
Hand 3: 23.5521 % 22.16% 01.39% { 55+ }


So we now have one gamble for a $400 pot where we have $200 invested and a 56% equity edge.

And another 3 way pot in which we have 39% equity.

This is a +EV spot to be in assuming we are properly Bankrolled for the level.

If the idiot wins then just prey he doesn't leave, re-load and take some of it back...

willis

bops wrote:

nice laydown willis

idiot calling station fish clown with over 2k on a 3/6 table - there is a lesson to be learned here me thinks!!

Do you remember his name willis?? (cough cough!!)

Lol...no way man...seriously is this u?wow!I was crying i had to leave this table,id finally got position on you having moved seats,i just couldnt get a hand vs you. Your my no1 buddylisted tbh, but as u say u had over 2k so u obv doing something right...never seen someone be such a luxbox though

Gholi, i agree, i should have lead this time, im trying to find the optimal amount of times to lead/check raise with hands like this OOP.

BtW, u say a TAG never min raises with suited connect...wel does he do it with QQ???course not,he just went a bit mad here for some reason, when he pushed allin i couldnt believe QQ fter all the action...as u say my check raise looks so strong,what the heck does he put me on,im tight myslef and he knows this