David McWilliams - discuss!

mike65

I just had the misfortune to flick on In Search of the Popes Children on RTE One. Maybe the previous two hours were insightful and intelligent, if so both qualities were exhausted by the last episode.

What a load of shallow glib blue-skies tosh! It appears that he's not able to discuss something without giving it a 'catchy' name or summing up with a needlessly flashy verbal flourish. I heard on him Tubridys radio show and he slightly annoyed me then so in awe of his own "modest" brilliance was he (ably wind-assisted by Ryan). Seeing him marching about the continent just made it all seem worse.

So is he a sage for our times or just in need of a good stuffing?

Mike.

Dave!

I heard him on Tubridy too, and I was wretching as I listened to them. They are the most pompous upper-class people I've ever seen! They were both just chuckling among themselves for the whole interview and I could almost see them lighting up cigars during the break.

Disgusting!

As to McWilliams specifically, I haven't read or watched any of his stuff, but I saw alot of his interviews when the book first came out when he was promoting it, and was completely turned off by all the silly names he gave people. "Breakfast roll man" if you wear a high-vis jacket (ie. if you're a manual worker, as opposed to an economist :rolleyes:)

Not interested in him to be honest.

FlutterinBantam

Are yez having anything else with the sour grapes?:D

Tom Dunne

mike65 wrote:

Maybe the previous two hours were insightful and intelligent, if so both qualities were exhausted by the last episode.

Nope, they were of a similar standard. "Decking Dave" and some other utterly stupid name for his woman.

mike65 wrote:

What a load of shallow glib blue-skies tosh! It appears that he's not able to discuss something without giving it a 'catchy' name or summing up with a needlessly flashy verbal flourish.

Couldn't have put it better myself. I did enjoy reading his articles in the SBP and, on occasion, the Indo, but to be honest, it's got to the stage where he is re-hashing the same thing over and over. And the same goes for his TV show - I've heard it all before. Though when I read it, I found it less patronising than when I saw it on TV.

mike65 wrote:

So is he a sage for our times or just in need of a good stuffing?

He has come up with some good observations on Irish society, but I think he desperately needs new material. Maybe he should write for The Onion.

Ahem.

tbh

how do you silence D Mc W? Tie his hands together. boom boom.

I did like him, but I find him a little smug now. The impression I have of him is that the material he is presenting has been dumbed down significantly (by him) so that people like me can understand.

Wishbone Ash

mike65 wrote:

What a load of shallow glib blue-skies tosh! It appears that he's not able to discuss something without giving it a 'catchy' name or summing up with a needlessly flashy verbal flourish

Spot on mike. I find the immature schoolboy sexual innuendo, which is brought into every segment, wearisome. Mrs Wishbone Ash is a fan - otherwise I would not have seen it.

hairymary

Click the link

http://www.villagemagazine.ie/articl...ud=36&aid=1085

tbh

not found?

Sleepy

That link's not working.

I personally wonder is a lot of the bile directed at McWilliams a childish response to not likeing the truth he's telling about our economy, particularly with regard to the housing market. People don't like being told they've been fools to part with 400k for a badly constructed, uninsulated three bed semi in a 'rising' part of town (read dump that the developer bought enough land in to 'improve' the area by building an 'exclusive' block of flats, sorry, modern studios in).

TBH, I do find him a little condescending at times but it's hard to blame an economist for thinking the population at large are of low intellect when you look at the way we Irish have acted over the last decade.

Tom Dunne

Sleepy wrote:

That link's not working.

I personally wonder is a lot of the bile directed at McWilliams a childish response to not likeing the truth he's telling about our economy, particularly with regard to the housing market.

From my own perspective, it's not. My finances are in pretty ok shape compared to some people I know.

But I do agree a lot of people are being particularly stupid and do need to be told this. Whether they like it or not, is another matter.

Sleepy

I'm guessing this was the link:

http://www.villagemagazine.ie/article.asp?aid=1085

Wishbone Ash

tom dunne wrote:

From my own perspective, it's not. My finances are in pretty ok shape compared to some people I know.

I'm the same - always keep the credit card in credit. But the people he refers to, who were born since 1979 only remember the good times. They have not experienced what it was like in the mid 1980s when this country was on it's knees and you had to put on your best suit to get an interview with the bank manager to be refused a loan.

darkbeatz

I agree with what he has to say but not really too keen on the way he gets his message across. He tries to hard to be " cool "

Tom Dunne

darkbeatz wrote:

He tries to hard to be " cool "

I don't think it is the cool factor, I think it more the "dumb down so the plebs will understand me" factor, which I find patronising.

tbh

Sleepy wrote:

TBH, I do find him a little condescending at times but it's hard to blame an economist for thinking the population at large are of low intellect when you look at the way we Irish have acted over the last decade.

Very good point!!!

flogen

mike65 wrote:

So is he a sage for our times or just in need of a good stuffing?

Mike.

IMO, he's neither..
I appreciate his angle; he's trying to sell economics to an audience that don't think in those terms and so he uses imagery and phrases to get his point across... he does go overboard though, and it can be very annoying at times.

He makes some good points on the economy though, and while he's predicting bad things he manages to put it forward in a coherant fashion, not seeming like the boogey man (like George Lee can often) and not dumbing it down too much to make it blunt.
As I said to an economically-minded friend of mine, he's not trying to talk to people who already get it, he's trying to talk to those who don't bother.
And, as has been said, Irish people have proven themselves to be very ignorant on these matters in recent years, hence the rise of Hobbs and McWilliams to "guide" them.

Some times, in his columns, he ventures into territory he should probably stay out of (like the piece he did on Nuclear Power in Ireland) but for the most part he knows what he's talking about (and as I've seen, people who know a lot about economics generally know a lot about the political system too).

His Agenda programme was quite good, was sorry to see TV3 axe that (as it was the only watchable programme they had) and the Big Bite was good at times, although it was a bit too soft for my liking.

And for the record, I've never met or spoke to him (he e-mails his SBP column in every week )

Snickers Man

What was all that nonsense about the fatwas on Curly Wurlys in the 1970s? (episode of a couple of weeks ago) There were DEFINITELY Curly Wurlys in Dublin in the early 1970s. I know cos I was there.

darkbeatz

Ill be looking forward to a few of them in my selection box off santy

Tom Dunne

flogen wrote:

As I said to an economically-minded friend of mine, he's not trying to talk to people who already get it, he's trying to talk to those who don't bother.

Agreed - I think this is the core of the matter.

flogen wrote:

And, as has been said, Irish people have proven themselves to be very ignorant on these matters in recent years, hence the rise of Hobbs and McWilliams to "guide" them.

Going slightly OT for the moment, isn't this understandable? Given the "basket case" economy we had and the lower quality of life we had before the boom, I would argue that people are being stupid with money because they simply never had it.

flogen wrote:

Some times, in his columns, he ventures into territory he should probably stay out of (like the piece he did on Nuclear Power in Ireland)

I would disagree with you on this one. We are approaching a power supply crisis. The economy will grind to a halt if we don't have the fuel to power it (metaphorically speaking). If the cost of all types of fuels rise, the economy will suffer, alternatives need to be considered, so I think he is right to bring the topic out in the open for discussion. If I recall, in the week following the article, he remarked on the incredible reponse he had to the article and printed a number of replies, both for and against.

flogen

tom dunne wrote:

Going slightly OT for the moment, isn't this understandable? Given the "basket case" economy we had and the lower quality of life we had before the boom, I would argue that people are being stupid with money because they simply never had it.

Probably, but having a good reason won't save us when the axe falls!

I would disagree with you on this one. We are approaching a power supply crisis. The economy will grind to a halt if we don't have the fuel to power it (metaphorically speaking). If the cost of all types of fuels rise, the economy will suffer, alternatives need to be considered, so I think he is right to bring the topic out in the open for discussion. If I recall, in the week following the article, he remarked on the incredible reponse he had to the article and printed a number of replies, both for and against.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think it was bad of him to raise the issue, quite the oposite, I just think he was out of his depth on the technicalities. He confused Nuclear Fission with Nuclear Fusion, and made the point that us using the sun for energy and heat means we should have no problem with nuclear power on this island... which is a pretty dumb statement to make, as having something millions upon millions of miles away is very different to having something on your doorstep and the two aren't even nearly comparable as a result.
He also failed to cover the issue that people always get stuck on, what happens with the waste, besides saying it could be easily buried (which isn't a solution and is, IMO, an oxymoron).

Not to go OT, but I don't disagree with the nation being urged to be mature about nuclear energy; I just think McWilliams was unusually sloppy in the way he tried to do that.

silverharp

I miss his Newstalk show, really enjoyed it and had some great guests. His style on the TV show was a little silly and longwinded however the underline themes are perfectly sound, especially the part about the "cheap" money everyone has enjoyed for the past few years. Economic cycles are as real as the seasons so should not be ignored.

redspider

mike65 wrote:

I just had the misfortune to flick on In Search of the Popes Children on RTE One. So is he a sage for our times or just in need of a good stuffing?

Well, David does make some salient points on the economic situation. I dont necessarily agree with everything that he says but quite a bit of it I would agree with, usually.

However, I'm not a fan of the method he has used to convey the messages. Pope's Children for one is not a term that many or indeed any people will identify with, no-one I know would say that they are in this category. The visit of the Pope was not an excuse for women in this country to get pregnant. All those other labels he tried to put on certain types also distracts from the message and information. Pop-onomics.

I didnt read the book but I usually read a lot of his stuff and his articles in the Business Post. At times he tries too hard to link current events with history, and over-simplifies some of the macro economics. I agree that he is trying to be cool, and also trying to dumb down the message.

Put 100 economists in a room and you will get 100 theory's. That is the nature of it because a) it is not an exact science, A + B = something, probably, and b) we have never ever been in this exact situation before, ever, each second of time is unique. c) the world is a very complex place d) governments print money !

Having said all that, I think we are better having people like David around than not.

Is he a sage? - No. But I wouldnt stuff him either. There are plenty more in that category, Tubridy being one. ;-)

Redspider

mike65

Put 100 economists in a room and you

shoot them!

Mike.

Sad Professor

I don't particularly like McWilliams as a tv/radio presenter but he's certainly a very intelligent and educated guy and has had some interesting insights. I've read the Pope's Children and thought it was very good in parts. The problem is he can't shake that silver spoon/upper class upbringing that screams out of his every word. He has no connection to the audience who feel he's talking down them.

As I recall his appearance on the Late Late Show to promote his book was disastrous, he just kept laughing at is own clever observations, poking fun at every social class. There was a lot of truth in his observations but even Pat was trying to get him to say something deeper or show some self-deprecation... but nada.

The guy just needs to stay away from tv/radio and stick to writing.

DMC

Thats where Eddie Hobbs has man-of-the-people appeal.

Eddie Hobbs isn't everyone's cup of tea, and I'm not comparing personal finance and economics, but on the public's perception, his Cork accent sounds very approachable, more in touch with lower classes.

More of a cute hoor, if you will

Wishbone Ash

DMC wrote:

his Cork accent sounds very approachable, more in touch with lower classes

They'll love that down Leeside way.

Sad Professor

DMC wrote:

Thats where Eddie Hobbs has man-of-the-people appeal.

Eddie Hobbs isn't everyone's cup of tea, and I'm not comparing personal finance and economics, but on the public's perception, his Cork accent sounds very approachable, more in touch with lower classes.

More of a cute hoor, if you will

Exactly. Although I can't stand Hobbs, give me McWilliams any day over him. lol

OTK

I don't think any of McWilliams stuff will have any resonance with the popes children who can't remember the bad times. But if you grew up in the 1970s, the country is unrecognisably different since then and up to now there hasn't been much analysis of this. The media commentators are understandably miffed that someone is stepping on their patch and making more money than them but I notice a lot of people talking about these programs.

The working class is shrinking and the country is becoming less socially divided. This is changing politics, changing how people see each other. The professions were mostly closed to anyone from the wrong schools and universities had some tiny number of working class students. And of course it's not all great when you see people paying 500K for a council house or travelling for 25 hours a week or never seeing their children.

As for the silly categories, I guess McWilliams is desparate to coin a phrase as he missed out on the Celtic Tiger and he's realised that coming up with a neologism guarantees immortality, so he's just throwing a lot of mud at the wall.

'Decklanders' isn't a great word. Everyone has decking from Dublin 4 to Mullingar.

flogen

OTK wrote:

As for the silly categories, I guess McWilliams is desparate to coin a phrase as he missed out on the Celtic Tiger and he's realised that coming up with a neologism guarantees immortality, so he's just throwing a lot of mud at the wall.

I thought he came up with Celtic Tiger too...

Sad Professor

flogen wrote:

I thought he came up with Celtic Tiger too...

Nah he just wishes he did

Sad Professor

I just looked it up and the phrase was first used by Kevin Gardiner (a British economist) in a Morgan Stanley report in 1994.

Damien Kiberd and Gay Bryne then falsely attributed it to a McWilliams who didn't deny it. I suspect it helped his career a lot.

parsi

Snickers Man wrote:

What was all that nonsense about the fatwas on Curly Wurlys in the 1970s? (episode of a couple of weeks ago) There were DEFINITELY Curly Wurlys in Dublin in the early 1970s. I know cos I was there.

I didn't understand that either. Curly Wurlys have been around for yonks and certainly were around in the 70s

aphex™

Sad Professor wrote:

I just looked it up and the phrase was first used by Kevin Gardiner (a British economist) in a Morgan Stanley report in 1994.

Yep I found that too! Lets get the word out there. He did NOT invent the term 'Celtic Tiger'. Argh!

He read it in the paper and started using it himself.

Sad Professor

To be fair he has denied it in recent years but its too late, it's already stuck :rolleyes:

DublinWriter

Basically McWilliams has only the one valid point - "credit is bad, m'kay?"

Trying to stretch this out over a whole book & series is really pushing it.

Unlike (Hello, My name is) Eddie Hobbes, Williams 'gets' the bigger macro-economic picture and is not obsessed with how much we're paying for a bottle of sauvignon blanc down the local Spar.

Tav

Has anybody watched "In Search of the Pope's Children" this Monday?
There was an interview with a woman living on social welfare and FAS benefits and if i understood right they siad is has an income around €4000. Could someone verify this? I just find it extremly disturbing.

J.S. Pill

Tav wrote:

Has anybody watched "In Search of the Pope's Children" this Monday?
There was an interview with a woman living on social welfare and FAS benefits and if i understood right they siad is has an income around €4000. Could someone verify this? I just find it extremly disturbing.

She was in receipt of social welfare and was doing a Fas community employment scheme - she said her weekly income was close to €400 per week (for her and her 2 kids)

My beef was that McWilliams was holding her up as an example of how the celtic tiger hasn't had huge benifits for everyone - and her standing there in her lovely fitted kitchen!! He should have interviewed me in my rodent infested 'kitchen', would have made for much better viewing.

Tav

J.S. Pill wrote:

She was in receipt of social welfare and was doing a Fas community employment scheme - she said her weekly income was close to €400 per week (for her and her 2 kids).

Ok, i got it wrong (and i'm glad for that )

My beef was that McWilliams was holding her up as an example of how the celtic tiger hasn't had huge benifits for everyone - and her standing there in her lovely fitted kitchen!! He should have interviewed me in my rodent infested 'kitchen', would have made for much better viewing

That's right!
In fairness she isn't one to blame, if the goverment gives her so much money why she shouldn't take it? But showing her as an example of person who didn't benefit from 'celtic tiger'?! I was feeling like throwing something at my telly
That 'poor' person:
-doesn't have to work
-is being trained for free...oh, no sorry, she is BEING paid for that >.<
-lives in in a completely new county council house which means that the rent is silly low
-has na income of €1600 per month
And she thinks that money come from where? charity or what?
:mad:

J.S. Pill

Tav wrote:

Ok, i got it wrong (and i'm glad for that )



That's right!
In fairness she isn't one to blame, if the goverment gives her so much money why she shouldn't take it? But showing her as an example of person who didn't benefit from 'celtic tiger'?! I was feeling like throwing something at my telly
That 'poor' person:
-doesn't have to work
-is being trained for free...oh, no sorry, she is BEING paid for that >.<
-lives in in a completely new county council house which means that the rent is silly low
-has na income of €1600 per month
And she thinks that money come from where? charity or what?
:mad:

If you want a soapbox "feckin' spongers" rant take it to After Hours.

I got f**ked out of my last job and I've been on social welfare for 3 weeks. I'm getting by so far but I'd hate to think what I'd do if I had to provide for and kids.

Apologies in advance for wasting your tax money mate

Tav

Wow
Take it easy. You didn't understand me, i'm not after the money she gets but her attitude to it. Same for this tv show producer.
As you mentioned yourself, she wasn't the best example standing there in her lovely, new kitchen.

stovelid

He makes some interesting economic points but the supercilious, glib tone of his book annoyed me a bit.

In his rush to arch his eyebrow at the Celtic Tiger, I don't think he realizes that how quintessential a part of of it he is.

monument

Maybe the programs did not connect with some posters here, but if I can remember correctly viewership numbers for the Pope's Children were at least reasonably strong week after week.

I'd rate it more along the lines of simplified and 'jazzed up', rather then 'dumbed down'.

DublinWriter wrote:

Basically McWilliams has only the one valid point - "credit is bad, m'kay?".

I thing he has quite a few more valid points. A few strong other ones include...

1) Problems around not being in control of interest rates.

2) People spending in overseas developments as investments when they really don't have a ****ing clue what you're doing.

3) The problems with how Dublin and Ireland has expanded, the problems long distance/time commuters are facing now and the dangers to these new commuters in for example the event of a real oil problem.

You or other might not like to hear some of these, I know there are people on boards who will attack on sight on any kind of questing of the idea of living far away from where you work, and buying houses in reality what was not so long ago the middle of nowhere. That's not to say I cant understand many of these people's anger over lack of services etc that were or were not promised, I blame the people who gave planning permission and won't give planning permission for proper density in Dublin.

Much of the media won't tell this story, for many reasons with out there being any conspiracy.

constitutionus

have to admit i used to like macwilliams on newstalk way back when and his and eddie's programs are entertaining though it is kinda disturbing to see that "we" now need people to tell us what is basically common sense.

take eddie hobbs show, you can basically distill it down to one sentence " dont spend money you dont ****ing have !"

i really dont understand why someone smart enough to have gone to college and earns in excess of the average industrial wage cant figure that out.

in regards to macwilliams show its basically just saying whats really going on. any gob****e with the info could figure it out. the problem the people with the figures dont want us to know how bad it is because theyre selling us stuff and if we started acting with fiscal rectitude there goes their bonuses. and thats pretty much the crux of it. macwilliams and co arent sages, theyre just talking about things others would rather ignore

makes me glad im one of the few with little or no debts

Tav

constitutionus wrote:

take eddie hobbs show, you can basically distill it down to one sentence " dont spend money you dont ****ing have !"

i really dont understand why someone smart enough to have gone to college and earns in excess of the average industrial wage cant figure that out.

The biggest mystery of our times although he gives some tips on things that aren't so obvious.

mike65

Personal debt is I'm sure a by-product of cheap money, when rates were 12-15% as a norm no-one could afford to splash the cash, or would be able get a loan in truth. Now banks throw it at you but the interest is still there to be paid. Many peeps just see shiney goodies and not the aftermath.

Mike.

aphex™

Does he still write for the Indo? I only get to read it when its free in the odd place but I haven't seen him in it. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks they have put him on hiatus while the property market takes its tumble.

Tim Robbins

aphex&#8482 wrote:

Does he still write for the Indo? I only get to read it when its free in the odd place but I haven't seen him in it. The conspiracy theorist in me thinks they have put him on hiatus while the property market takes its tumble.

David McWilliams used to be good on Newstalk and when he had his agenda show on TV3. Now he has decided to make his journalism a bit denser to reach out to more people and make more money.
He looks at a phenomena in Ireland from a Blackrock perspective and makes up a silly name for it. Is he a comedian or an intellectual - neither right now.

J.S. Pill

Isn't he hoasting a discussion forum in a tent in Electric picnic this year? I think I should raise some of the objections posted here to him (I'll try not to be too off my face while doing so...)

constitutionus

i think he's going back to Newstalk for a gig at the weekend . cant remember if its a sat or a sunday show but im sure i heard he's doing something for em again. bit surprised seeing as he got kicked off the breakfast show in leiu of dunphy but stil im glad if its true. newstalk seriously need to sort out its weekend schedule. it aint that impressive.

flogen

constitutionus wrote:

i think he's going back to Newstalk for a gig at the weekend . cant remember if its a sat or a sunday show but im sure i heard he's doing something for em again. bit surprised seeing as he got kicked off the breakfast show in leiu of dunphy but stil im glad if its true. newstalk seriously need to sort out its weekend schedule. it aint that impressive.

Really?
That would surprise me - he was very unceremoniously dumped from Newstalk way back when if I can remember correctly - I think there was messy stuff over contracts etc. too
And he was picked up by RTÉ, the contract of which I would have thought was pretty water-tight as regards doing stuff for the competition... unless that's finished now.

constitutionus

i only caught the tail end of the add but thats what i thought too. guess time heals and all that. i know come july theyre messing around with their schedules. swaping around your call and life and such so maybe it'll be around that period. in regards to RTEs contract with him i presume theres a time limit on its exclusivity . it certainly hasnt stopped george hook or sean moncrief playing both sides of the fence

personally i hope its true. god knows they need the broadcasters, and hell if marty wheelan can go back to RTE after century radio anythings possible