Leave Christmas alone!

blackthorn

I was so glad to read this article in the Telegraph.

Now if only there was a Christian-Muslim forum like that in Ireland to speak up next time someone takes down a crib from a hospital foyer or whatever other display of Christianity that may be deemed a possible 'offence', to let people know, it is not the Muslims who are calling for this.

link

Karl Hungus

blackthorn wrote:

I was so glad to read this article in the Telegraph.

Now if only there was a Christian-Muslim forum like that in Ireland to speak up next time someone takes down a crib from a hospital foyer or whatever other display of Christianity that may be deemed a possible 'offence', to let people know, it is not the Muslims who are calling for this.

link

A win for common sense over knee-jerk political correctness. Good to see in this day and age.

Dave!

Interesting.

wes

Thank goodness for common sense. People need to stop changing things on the off chance that it "might" offend someone, especially if that somebody doesn't even complain.

the_new_mr

I agree with the result of this wholeheartedly. As the article says, Muslims and other minority groups end up getting a whole load of misdirected anger because people feel it's their fault that Christmas isn't Christmassy anymore when in fact that's not what they want at all. I thought this stuff was only happening over in America but it looks like I thought wrong.

"Winterval". I literally laughed out loud

lostexpectation

the_new_mr wrote:

I agree with the result of this wholeheartedly. As the article says, Muslims and other minority groups end up getting a whole load of misdirected anger because people feel it's their fault that Christmas isn't Christmassy anymore when in fact that's not what they want at all. I thought this stuff was only happening over in America but it looks like I thought wrong.

"Winterval". I literally laughed out loud

i think winterval is so much better and accurate

in a way I don't see this as a good thing, cos i prefer secularism

wes

lostexpectation wrote:

i think winterval is so much better and accurate

in a way I don't see this as a good thing, cos i prefer secularism

If secularists etc want it then make it very clear that YOU want it and don't try and paint it as something minorities want. That is often the reason given despite no minority asking for it. Really Muslims in particular don't need anymore bad press and I am sure the other minorities don't want it either.

HelterSkelter

lostexpectation wrote:

i think winterval is so much better and accurate

in a way I don't see this as a good thing, cos i prefer secularism

But secularism means a seperation of church and state. It doesn't mean stopping Christians from celebrating Christmas and renaming their festivals. If you are not a Christian and you feel so strongly about this then you shouldn't celebrate the festival even if it is called "winterval", you should just treat it like any other day of the year and go to work (or whatever it is you would usually do).

HelterSkelter

I know a lot of Muslims and I don't think any of them would be offended by a Christmas raffle in work. Is this politicial correctness gone way over the top, or an ignorance of Islamic beliefs or is it another cynical way to have a go at Muslims and try to turn people against them?

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13555334,00.html

Recently, workplace dispute reconciliation advisors ACAS attracted criticism for warning bosses they had to be politically correct at office parties.

A set of guidelines issued by the service warned against running raffles at end-of-year shindigs, because they might offend Muslims, and against playing too much modern music, because it might offend older members of staff.

wes

HelterSkelter wrote:

I know a lot of Muslims and I don't think any of them would be offended by a Christmas raffle in work. Is this politicial correctness gone way over the top, or an ignorance of Islamic beliefs or is it another cynical way to have a go at Muslims and try to turn people against them?

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13555334,00.html

Seems like another way to have a go at any non-christian minorities and in the current climate Muslims tend to be the ones singled out. Muslims do believe in Jesus (pbuh). We might differ in the details, but we still believe him to be a prophet. I don't think any would be offended by Christmas. I think I mentioned in this thread that my family has no problem joining in on the non-religous Christmas stuff.

There seems to be very little evidence of non-christians being that bothered by Christmas and if they are they don't seem to be making a fuss. I haven't seen any anti-Christmas protests yet. I don't think I will any time soon.

HelterSkelter

wes wrote:

Seems like another way to have a go at any non-christian minorities and in the current climate Muslims tend to be the ones singled out. Muslims do believe in Jesus (pbuh). We might differ in the details, but we still believe him to be a prophet. I don't think any would be offended by Christmas. I think I mentioned in this thread that my family has no problem joining in on the non-religous Christmas stuff.

There seems to be very little evidence of non-christians being that bothered by Christmas and if they are they don't seem to be making a fuss. I haven't seen any anti-Christmas protests yet. I don't think I will any time soon.

I think the main problem (they won't admit this) is that if they celebrate Christmas in the workplace they will eventually have to celebrate non-Christian festivals (like Eid) and they don't want this to happen.

wes

HelterSkelter wrote:

I think the main problem (they won't admit this) is that if they celebrate Christmas in the workplace they will eventually have to celebrate non-Christian festivals (like Eid) and they don't want this to happen.

If thats the case there nuts. Again I doubt Muslims will ask for this or expect it. At most I personally ask for a day off (or a morning off if they really need me) which is a reasonable request for a religous holiday.

People need to stop blaming minorities on this kind of stuff. There doesn't seem to be any of them asking for this.

Esmereldina

well it's interesting to see that most muslim or at least muslim friendly boards members are not offended by Christmas... I do remember last Christmas though that one muslim student complained about the Christmas tree in our university library (!) saying that it offended students who did not share the Christian faith. Despite not even being a Christian, I found his comments a little offensive...
I don't know which is the most commonly held opinion among muslims - the one that I encountered in my university or that expressed in this thread. My point is just that the other view is out there too and I would be interested to hear any opinions on how prevalent it might be among Irish muslims or in Islamic circles in Ireland.

wes

Esmereldina wrote:

well it's interesting to see that most muslim or at least muslim friendly boards members are not offended by Christmas... I do remember last Christmas though that one muslim student complained about the Christmas tree in our university library (!) saying that it offended students who did not share the Christian faith. Despite not even being a Christian, I found his comments a little offensive...
I don't know which is the most commonly held opinion among muslims - the one that I encountered in my university or that expressed in this thread. My point is just that the other view is out there too and I would be interested to hear any opinions on how prevalent it might be among Irish muslims or in Islamic circles in Ireland.

There at least always one nut who will complain. Most Muslims are not bothered by Chiristmas. I was encouraged as a child by the local Mosque to join in as we believe in Jesus (pbuh) and his birth by his virgin mother Mary. The details are a little different, but not too different. So someone celebrating the birth of Jesus (pbuh) is hardly offensive. That guy in your Uni was a nut and should look to what we have in common rather than what seperates us.

Esmereldina

wes wrote:

There at least always one nut who will complain. Most Muslims are not bothered by Chiristmas. I was encouraged as a child by the local Mosque to join in as we believe in Jesus (pbuh) and his birth by his virgin mother Mary. The details are a little different, but not too different. So someone celebrating the birth of Jesus (pbuh) is hardly offensive. That guy in your Uni was a nut and should look to what we have in common rather than what seperates us.

Though looking at the Christmas tree again today, possibly he was just offended because the decorations are so old and crappy and the tree has obviously been sitting in someone's attic for at least the last 10 years! I'd definitely be open to some kind of inclusive and tasteful alternative to gold tinsel :cool:

randomname

Esmereldina wrote:

well it's interesting to see that most muslim or at least muslim friendly boards members are not offended by Christmas... I do remember last Christmas though that one muslim student complained about the Christmas tree in our university library (!) saying that it offended students who did not share the Christian faith. Despite not even being a Christian, I found his comments a little offensive...
I don't know which is the most commonly held opinion among muslims - the one that I encountered in my university or that expressed in this thread. My point is just that the other view is out there too and I would be interested to hear any opinions on how prevalent it might be among Irish muslims or in Islamic circles in Ireland.

Most Muslims dont mind Christmas at all, that student who said they were offended by it needs to cop on. I know a lot of muslims who get involved in Christmas i.e. putting up a tree etc and gifts.

BrianCalgary

HelterSkelter wrote:

But secularism means a seperation of church and state. It doesn't mean stopping Christians from celebrating Christmas and renaming their festivals. If you are not a Christian and you feel so strongly about this then you shouldn't celebrate the festival even if it is called "winterval", you should just treat it like any other day of the year and go to work (or whatever it is you would usually do).

This si the problem. Secularists want to ban anything that they deem religious. Whereas religious folk are willing to show a healthy tolerance toward the celebrations of other faiths. We see Muslims celebrating Ramadan here and it's no big deal. Go into an Islamic part of town and it is there. In the same light, Christmas is part of the Canadian heritage and muslims in turn respect that as well and don't compalin about nativity scenes. The only ones that do compalin are white secularists with their university degrees.

Scofflaw

BrianCalgary wrote:

This si the problem. Secularists want to ban anything that they deem religious. Whereas religious folk are willing to show a healthy tolerance toward the celebrations of other faiths. We see Muslims celebrating Ramadan here and it's no big deal. Go into an Islamic part of town and it is there. In the same light, Christmas is part of the Canadian heritage and muslims in turn respect that as well and don't compalin about nativity scenes. The only ones that do compalin are white secularists with their university degrees.

Speaking as a "white secularist with a university degree" - I have no interest in banning any religious festival whatsoever. There is a thread discussing this on the Atheist forum, and the consensus there is the same. None of have the slightest interest in banning Nativity scenes, disturbing Shivah, crushing Id, preventing the worship of idols, or anything of the kind.

Unless you define "secularist" as someone whose agenda is specifically the removal of religion from society (in which case I am no longer a 'secularist', despite being whole-heartedly committed to my personal vision of a secular society) - in which case you are defining the people who are against Christmas as "the people who are against Christmas", which tells us very little.

In general, the people who take down religious displays are the same people who take down political displays - administrators and bureaucrats, who do it to avoid the remotest possibility of confrontation. Someone in a back office somewhere simply decides that someone else might be offended, and opts to cover their ass in case that hypothetical someone reports them to an official further up the chain.

It's nothing to do with a secularising agenda - it is "risk control" born out of the cowardice of the faceless.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Suff

I am a Muslim and I LOVE Christmas, I dont celebrate the religious side of it.
I love the decorations, food, atmosphere and hey I'm the one in the house who cant wait to go and get the Tree!

I think its down to education and how cultured an individual is when it comes to multi-faith/culture society.
The topic stated in Skynews is so blown out of proportion, you would think its from the states and not in the UK !
If they were worried that one day they would have to acknowledge and celebrate the Islamic Eid [which come twice a year!] it simply wont happen unless the Islamic faith grows to a 40% level or over of the population then it might need to be addressed otherwise this attempt is just magnifying what some people might call Islamophobia.

Scofflaw

This is a good example of what I mean.

Request: rabbi requests that menorah is included with the other seasonal decorations at Seattle airport.

Response: airport administrators remove all seasonal decorations from Seattle airport.

Follow-up: public outcry, and floods of hate mail for the rabbi

Follow-up: airport administrators reinstate decorations, promise menorah next year.

Now, the rabbi never asked for the decorations to be removed. They were taken down by administrators in a knee-jerk reaction to the fear of being sued. I think this is most often what happens - not a "secularist agenda".

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

A rather good article by the Guardian debunking the "War on Christmas".

cordially,
Scofflaw

Esmereldina

This was a very interesting (and kind of funny) article... it certainly illustrates the ridiculousness of the idea that there is a 'war on Christmas' being waged by militant secularists...

Scofflaw

Esmereldina wrote:

This was a very interesting (and kind of funny) article... it certainly illustrates the ridiculousness of the idea that there is a 'war on Christmas' being waged by militant secularists...

It's also nicely provable - here's the Luton Council page on "Christmas all wrapped up". Does that look like Luton Council is waging a "war on Christmas"?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Esmereldina

Scofflaw wrote:

It's also nicely provable - here's the Luton Council page on "Christmas all wrapped up". Does that look like Luton Council is waging a "war on Christmas"?

cordially,
Scofflaw

On the contrary... as far as I could see, they seemed to be playing some kind of wierd game, where the object was to fit Christmas as many times into one page as possible... they certainly seem full of the good cheer to be!

Esmereldina

Esmereldina wrote:

On the contrary... as far as I could see, they seemed to be playing some kind of wierd game, where the object was to fit Christmas as many times into one page as possible... they certainly seem full of the good cheer to be!

oops I mean nice religiousy Christmas cheer, not the nasty secular kind of course