Driver Behaviour and it's effects on Traffic Jams

sinbadfury

Just reading some interesting articles on the subject and wanted to
see if anyone out there has any opinions on the matter?

Prehaps if people understood the implications of their behaviour
while in cimmuter traffic, we could improve the bad commuter traffic
situation that Dublin and other areas are crippled with at the moment...

Drax

sinbadfury wrote:

Just reading some interesting articles on the subject and wanted to
see if anyone out there has any opinions on the matter?

Prehaps if people understood the implications of their behaviour
while in cimmuter traffic, we could improve the bad commuter traffic
situation that Dublin and other areas are crippled with at the moment...

Huh? Their behaviour in commuter traffic? From what I've seen its nose-picking, ear-cleaning, making phone calls, reading newspapers/notes as well as bad driving, using hard shoulders, breaking speed limits on roadworks etc etc...
I would be interested in hearing your solution.

sinbadfury

It's the bad driving, use of lanes. cutting up and all that that I meant.

There is research out there that suggests that even a handful of people driving in a controlled manner could ease considerable congestion on a stretch of road, say the M50 from M1 to toll bridge.

The 'your not getting in there mate...' and the general 'competitive driving' nature of commuters contributes to congestion far more that people might realise. A switch from worrying about other peoples bad driving to your own good driving could help...

Just thought it might be a good topic to kick off, unless everyone is content in traffic these days :-)

Calina

Tangentially, one of the things which is hugely noticeable to me when I do the Limerick-Dublin journey (which I do a couple of times a month) is that when you arrive around Kildare-ish if you're Dublin-bound, the driving becomes noticeably poorer. I always put it down to commuter driven driving (sorry). For me, one of the killers around the Dublin area is the appalling lane discipline, the tendency to break red lights just after the change, and then not paying attention when lights turn green.

The volume of cars in Dublin almost certainly doesn't help but drivers don't really help their levels of stress by the way a significant number of them appear to drive. If drivers paid more attention to that, then road design problems such as Jn 6 and 7 of the M50, and the M50/M1 interchange might be easier to reconsider.

OTK

When the cops do their annual operation freeflow, the traffic seems to move better as a result of people obeying the rules more. Though I don't think everyone would agree with me.

On a related question, what speed of traffic can achieve the highest capacity for a road in vehicles per hour? Faster traffic has to keep further stopping distances but gridlocked traffic is the also inefficient use of roadspace.

dmeehan

OTK wrote:

On a related question, what speed of traffic can achieve the highest capacity for a road in vehicles per hour? Faster traffic has to keep further stopping distances but gridlocked traffic is the also inefficient use of roadspace.

try this: http://www.traffic-simulation.de/

Tabnabs

OTK wrote:

When the cops do their annual operation freeflow, the traffic seems to move better as a result of people obeying the rules more. Though I don't think everyone would agree with me.

I think part of it may be down to the increased presence of Gardai. People behave better as they are aware that the gards can do something about their poor driving. It's why I think that they should have a few cars & bikes patrolling the M50 at rush hour(s) to calm things down.

Tabnabs

dmeehan wrote:

try this: http://www.traffic-simulation.de/

Looks like Firhouse in the mornings!

sinbadfury

Coming from the south-east I would have to agree. Dublin commuter belt traffic is noticeably more , lets say 'aggressive'. Stress prob is the main cause, it can blind you in cases like that.

But after reading up on it a bit I tried something out on the way home last night. Let a 3-4 car length space build up in front and kept that space by easing on/off accelerator. A couple of things struck me...the fast lane would have cars pass me out then I would trundle by them as they hit there bunch-up on to pass me again...and trundle by again..and so on.

On approach to ramps the cars joining seemed to be less aggressive and letting cars filter in in front of me while maintaining he spacing kept things rolling.

Some drivers got impatient and passed me out and filter in ahead, only to bunch up ahead and by the time I arrived they were only getting started again.

And after a while I did notice that the car behind me slowed to give himself a gap too, so maybe he realised the benefit

All in all I probably averaged 25-40mph with little stops and was amazed at how calm I was once I got home, good effects all around I think.

Wishbone Ash

OTK wrote:

When the cops do their annual operation freeflow, the traffic seems to move better

Dyflin wrote:

I think part of it may be down to the increased presence of Gardai.

The banning of non-emergency roadworks during that period may also help.

Calina wrote:

if you're Dublin-bound, the driving becomes noticeably poorer.

I usually find that it is the opposite. For example, in rural towns, when you have a green light with a yellow box junction and the exit is not clear, rural drivers will sound their horns and gesture you to move on while pointing to the green light. If you point down to the yellow box, they seem confused. This has never happened to me in Dublin but it is a regular feature in provincial towns.

Wishbone Ash

sinbadfury wrote:

the fast lane

:eek: You will get hung, drawn and quartered for using that term here. There is no such lane. It's an "overtaking lane".

Calina

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I usually find that it is the opposite. For example, in rural towns, when you have a green light with a yellow box junction and the exit is not clear, rural drivers will sound their horns and gesture you to move on while pointing to the green light. If you point down to the yellow box, they seem confused. This has never happened to me in Dublin but it is a regular feature in provincial towns.

Ignoring yellow boxes is something which I notice very frequently in Dublin - where there are quite a few more, in fairness. Ignoring red lights is a very wide phenomen in Dublin. I don't see it as much outside Dublin.

My view is that driving in Dublin is generally more aggressive as a whole - there is very little patience and certainly as far as nat route driving and motorway driving is concerned, standards are noticeably poorer inside the commuter belt. That's not to say that things are 100% down the country, only that the general level of driver obnoxiousness is not as pronounced outside Dublin/commuter belt as it is within it.

Bunnyhopper

I do remember hearing somewhere the idea that congestion on motorways, dual-carriageways and the like can in some cases be seen as having a wave function. I'm guessing this might apply in those "sheer volume of traffic" holdups where you end up bumper to bumper for a while and then the road opens up, with no particular obvious cause for either the congestion or its disappearance. I think the idea is that the congestion moves through the traffic like a wave, so a driver who brakes gently and in good time, and doesn't accelerate harshly acts like a sort of damper and smooths out the congestion.

Of course, the trouble with that, around Dublin at least, is that a driver leaving braking distance ahead of his or her car, and braking gently, will make little progress on account of the t*ssers who'll insist on tailgating and/or cutting in

corktina

bumper to bumper doesnt happen enough.If only some of those muppets would move up to the car in front in a q, then the queues would be shorter.....

oh and turn off you *7**^%* fog lights you morons.....

cyclopath2001

Speed plays a role as if traffic is going too fast, it makes it difficult for people from side roads to merge.

A lot of congestion is caused by selfishness & ignorance.

I've seen long tail-backs on the North Quays caused by just one driver coming out from Liffey street and blocking the bus lane while trying to force his/her way into the outside lane. Similarly, On the Howth Road, I saw a bus-load of people stuck for 20 minutes because of merging traffic from Castle Avenue not leaving the bus lane clear.

Then, there's the stupidity of people who want to have a car the size of a studio apartment (and costing nearly as much) to themselves & complaining that we need more roadspace.

There's plenty of space on our roads if only it were used efficiently.

Danno

Traffic Lights - Abbeyleix

Idiots allowing shoppers to take 1 minute to reverse out onto the road while the lights are green... that is one of the major problems in Abbeyleix.
Also, why the feck people have to cross the road to park, walk across yea lazy feckers.

N8 - South of Portlaoise
Why do people have to slow up when they see oncoming traffic, then speed up again when the oncoming lane is clear? If you are nervous driving in the dark, stay at home. The government should bring in night time driving as part of the test and ban people from driving at night if they fail that part.

Tractors/Diggers - Everywhere
Please look in your mirrors and when ten cars accumulate behind you, pull in at the next safe spot to allow them pass you out!

Hard Margins - All N Routes
Why can't the councils paint the yellow lines solid where it is unsafe to pull over to allow someone to overtake? Leave them dashed for safe overtaking zones just like the white lines are done???

sinbadfury

I suppose with a test as old and outdated as Ireland's, people are just not savvy enough and don't have the skills and training to conduct themselves properly on any of our roads.

I am probably going to get roasted for this but it is not aimed at being offensive, but driving is a skill, and like any other skills some people just don't have the aptitude to do it properly, and the ability to learn a skill can come down to intelligence level and common sense, and it is not unfair to say that some people will be more/less intelligent and their ability to learn to drive will be easier/harder.

The test needs total revamping, with theory questions on finding out what people would do in 'common driving situations' to see if they have the required skill level.

This would mean not everyone would be allowed to drive, but then there are a lot of things you cant do without passing proper skills training and testing.....let the flames begin

corktina

oh i agree with that. I cut my driving teeth on the M4 close to London...you learnt to drive properley and safely REALLY quickly that way....
Irish drivers don't get enough experiance to be able to drive properley,(city flok because they are stuck in jams all the time and Countryfolk because the roads are too empty and 99 times out of 100 you will get away with the most appalling dangerous driving.
With my Car Club we have gone to England a few times and around most of Ireland and the driving of SOME of those with us has so frightened me so much that I always travel solo nowadays. Even simple things like dipping your headlights seem to be beyond some people....

Wishbone Ash

sinbadfury wrote:

the ability to learn a skill can come down to intelligence level and common sense, and it is not unfair to say that some people will be more/less intelligent and their ability to learn to drive will be easier/harder

Some of the most intelligent people I know are crap drivers. Did you ever see academic types, like university professors, driving? :eek: Very intelligent people, in my experience, tend not to be into cars or motoring and therefore have little interest in improving their driving. It's 'beneath' them.

europerson

I think a big problem is bypasses with roundabouts on each end, for example, the Ashbourne bypass. As traffic approaches a roundabout (on the old N2) to get onto the bypass, every car slows down in its approach. Each car successively slows down a bit more, so that a mile down the road, evryone has stopped, because that's the effect of one person having to brake on everyone else. I think that the whole issue of bypasses starting and ending with roundabouts has to be looked at.

Of course, I'm not saying here that drivers' behaviour is wrong: they have to slow down at roundabouts! I'm just giving an example of how behaviour can have effects on all road-users.

cyclopath2001

europerson wrote:

I think a big problem is bypasses with roundabouts on each end, for example,

Another factor would be if the drivers are sticking to the rules about not entering unless the exit is clear, using the correct lane, indicating properly and also giving way to the right.

It's quite annoying to miss entry gaps on roundabouts because drivers don't indicate before they exit.

I also think that excessive speed on roundabouts makes them work less efficiently.

BrianD3

I think junction hopping has a big effect on conjestion. This is where cars come off a conjested m-way at an interchange and then come straight back on again. This creates unnecessary merging which slows things up for everyone. If drivers didn't junction hop then the mainline would move more quickly negating the "need" for junction hopping to save time.

Another one that bugs me is drivers who insist on turning right when entering a main road from a side road even though they could turn left and do a U-turn at a roundabout 50 yards up the road to their left. This would save time for themselves and everyone queued up behind them (as long as the roundabout wasn't jammed with traffic of course)

mackerski

europerson wrote:

Each car successively slows down a bit more, so that a mile down the road, evryone has stopped, because that's the effect of one person having to brake on everyone else. I think that the whole issue of bypasses starting and ending with roundabouts has to be looked at.

You've described the symptom perfectly, but the cause isn't the roundabout - because sooner or later, a car will step on the brakes for some other reason - the real problem here is tailgating. It's the failure to leave sufficient distance between you and the car in front that amplifies the severity of the braking for each successive car and propagates a shock wave back through the queue.

Dermot

Victor

corktina wrote:

bumper to bumper doesnt happen enough.If only some of those muppets would move up to the car in front in a q, then the queues would be shorter.....

A bunched up queue still has the same number of vehicles in it and is less safe.

Capt'n Midnight

Yeah I have to agree there the M50 is a disaster for tailgating, there is no space to merge and seeds go from 0-50mph randomly as you approach the toll bridge.

The port tunnel will require 100m between trucks, 200m if it's a dangerous load like a tanker.

Perhaps if they used speed cameras to enforce the two second rule, with a rain sensor to increase this for wet conditions. Maybe a warning light based on sensors on the under side of a bridge.

Wishbone Ash

BrianD3 wrote:

cars come off a conjested m-way at an interchange and then come straight back on again

I heard the evening presenter on LiveDrive on DCAL recommend this manoeuvre recently. I'd say it raised a few eyebrows.

BrianD3 wrote:

Another one that bugs me is drivers who insist on turning right when entering a main road from a side road even though they could turn left and do a U-turn at a roundabout 50 yards up the road to their left. This would save time for themselves and everyone queued up behind them

I have to admit that I often do this but not for altruistic reasons . I wish to turn right onto a major road at a T-junction. There is a long queue of other vehicles also wishing to turn right because the dozie at the head of the queue is waiting until the road is clear for a mile on each side. :rolleyes: I turn left and make a quick U-turn (where permitted and safe) and off on my merry way.

There is a T-junction near me where right turns are not permitted because it is virtually impossible and very dangerous to do so. Motorists are regularly held up because a stubborn muppet insists on making the right turn and delays the rest of us (narrow road - no room to go up nearside). :mad:

tywy

Victor wrote:

A bunched up queue still has the same number of vehicles in it and is less safe.

well you have to think of the drivers behind you...in dublin city there can be three sets of lights within a few hundred metres of each other...if every car was close to each other there might not be a car stuck at a red light because someone didn't pull up tight.

This also happens with yellow boxes, someone gets stuck in a yellow box because he/she thought there was enough room but there wasn't because some one decides not to pull up tight. I'm not saying bumper to bumper but some people leave half a car length between them and the car in front which is a bit much I think. The thing about yellow boxes is, that person who's stuck in the box by accident is now slowing up other traffic.

Rev Hellfire

tywy wrote:

This also happens with yellow boxes, someone gets stuck in a yellow box because he/she thought there was enough room but there wasn't because some one decides not to pull up tight. I'm not saying bumper to bumper but some people leave half a car length between them and the car in front which is a bit much I think. The thing about yellow boxes is, that person who's stuck in the box by accident is now slowing up other traffic.

I think you might need to revisit the rules of road since you seem to misunderstand box junctions. To recap you can’t enter the box unless you can clear it (or are taking a turn to the right and will not cause an obstruction). The distance between the car ahead of you and the one before it should be irrelevant since you must wait until such time as it is clear to proceed.
Cars get stuck at lights and junctions not because people aren’t bunched up, but rather because people are too impatient to wait the extra few minutes that halting at a red light will entail.

tywy

I know the rules of the road...but this still happens and doesn't need to happen...and if the car has wait for another few minutes because of a red light isn't this what causes conjestion.

What I was saying was, one more car would get through a green light if people were more thoughtful about their stopping distances.

EDIT: I didn't actually mean a car sitting blatantly in a yellow box but you know how it happens that half the car is in the yellow box or something...this can be helped!

Rev Hellfire

tywy wrote:

you know how it happens that half the car is in the yellow box or something...this can be helped!

Indeed I do (and I've been there myself) but the car ahead not stacking up does not cause it. But it’s rather a failure to bring your car to halt or in the case of a junction not waiting until you have sufficient clearance ahead.
Its interesting that somehow the failure of a driver to bring their car to stop in the appropriate place is some how the fault of the drivers ahead.
Squeezing one more car though on the lights doesn’t actually improve traffic flow and by bringing cars closer together you’re only increasing the likelihood of an incident occurring.

Wishbone Ash

tywy wrote:

one more car would get through a green light if people were more thoughtful about their stopping distances

It's a rather pointless arguement as it would mean one extra car stopping at the next red lights. I can't see how this would resolve congestion.

MrPudding

tywy wrote:

I'm not saying bumper to bumper but some people leave half a car length between them and the car in front which is a bit much I think. The thing about yellow boxes is, that person who's stuck in the box by accident is now slowing up other traffic.

i was told years ago, can't remember by who, that the way to judge the distance to leave to the car in front of you was to ensure you could see the rear tires touch the road. I think that is more than half a cars length. I will continue to do this as I would prefer not to be pushed into the car in front if someone hits me from behind. I think this is more important than pissing people off cos they, incorrectly IMO, think that I am increasing congestion by leaving a safe distance.

If you want to get more people through green lights, stop people running reds and then introduce amber before green.

MrP

sinbadfury

I think different situations call for different actions. The car length or more in front idea was aimed at traveling down the motorway, not really 'in-traffic' in the city or medium size town.

I think the main frustration with traffic lights is seeing a light go green and it is obvious that the first person in the queue is not prepared to move quickly enough. There is no real reason why only 2-3 cars should get through a traffic light (if the opposite side of junction/yellow box etc is clear of course).

I think, maybe ye will disagree, but if you are first in the queue, you should be in first gear and watching the light to make a prompt move once it changes. All too often we have...'Oh green light, cool....select first....check my mirrors...release clutch...potter across at 5 mph....'

MrPudding

sinbadfury wrote:

I think different situations call for different actions. The car length or more in front idea was aimed at traveling down the motorway, not really 'in-traffic' in the city or medium size town.

Not it wasn't. One car length is nowhere enough on a motorway. 2 seconds is the guide and at 120kph that is a bit more.

The "seeing the tires touch the road" was specifically for being stopped behind another vehicle.

sinbadfury wrote:

I think the main frustration with traffic lights is seeing a light go green and it is obvious that the first person in the queue is not prepared to move quickly enough. There is no real reason why only 2-3 cars should get through a traffic light (if the opposite side of junction/yellow box etc is clear of course).

Agreed. the fault here lies mostly with drivers I think. Because there are no many selfish cnuts running red lights actually moving off promptly on green is actually very dangerous. Also, if you are unfamiliar with a junction you may not know when green is coming. If we had amber before green it would help, again the selfish cnuts mess this up for everyone.

sinbadfury wrote:

I think, maybe ye will disagree, but if you are first in the queue, you should be in first gear and watching the light to make a prompt move once it changes. All too often we have...'Oh green light, cool....select first....check my mirrors...release clutch...potter across at 5 mph....'

Yes, I will disagree. I will have my car in neutral and the handbreak on. I will do my best to work out when my light will be green and get the car in gear but I will not sit the whole way through a red light with my car in gear and the clutch in. That is just stupid.

MrP

Calina

Just a couple of comments:

My driving instructor nailed into me that when I am stopped in traffic, I should be able to see the tyres of the car in front of me on the tarmac. I assume that this is responsible for the fact that when a slightly enthusiastic driver rear-ended me seeing the lights turn green 300m ahead but failed to notice that the traffic straight in front of him wasn't actually moving, I didn't get rammed into the car in front of me.

I was also told that I should always be ready to move off when the lights change. Someone else told me that her instructor said that if you were one of the first three cars stopped at traffic lights, you should be in first gear and ready to move. I realise a lot of drivers get frustrated at green lights and traffic not moving but given the extent to which cars run red lights at light/change here, I would always been looking left and right before moving anyway.

Regarding distance on the motorway/expressways: in France, they paint lines at the side of the road and remind you with signposts every so often that the distance between you and the car in front of you should be at least two of those lines. I'd a French flatmate who assumed it was the same here until I pointed out that the lines at the side of the roads on voies expres and autoroutes in France were noticebly longer than the lines on the sides of Irish motorways. We could implement something like that but frankly I can't see it makes a difference given prevalent attitudes to road safety legislation in this country.

seamus

It'll be interesting to see the effect on traffic flow when the port tunnel is opened, and few if any trucks are using the main thoroughfares.

By far the biggest hinderance to all traffic is the existence of traffic lights. I'm not being facetious here, but your plain old four-way junction with traffic lights holds everything up - look at the N3 inbound. Busses, lorries and most other vehicles have a negligible effect on traffic flow when taking off from lights, but trucks carrying full loads can easily take up to ten seconds to even get fully past a set of lights after turning green, and much longer to get up to any decent speed. The problem is exacerbated continuously by subsequent junctions.

A reasonable alternative would be a "heavy goods lane" at large or congested junctions, where busses and artics can bypass the junction with little or no stopping slowing down.

steinbock

Wishbone Ash wrote:

I heard the evening presenter on LiveDrive on DCAL recommend this manoeuvre recently. I'd say it raised a few eyebrows.

techniaclly using an interchange to come off and back on to a motorway is not breaking any rules of the road though.

Capt'n Midnight

MrPudding wrote:

i was told years ago, can't remember by who, that the way to judge the distance to leave to the car in front of you was to ensure you could see the rear tires touch the road. I think that is more than half a cars length. I will continue to do this as I would prefer not to be pushed into the car in front if someone hits me from behind. I think this is more important than pissing people off cos they, incorrectly IMO, think that I am increasing congestion by leaving a safe distance.

One thing I hate is when you anticipate the green and start off but the person in front stalls or takes off slowly, another reason to leave a gap.

If you want to get more people through green lights, stop people running reds and then introduce amber before green.

MrP

Absolutely stop running reds, and crucify anyone who enters a junction when their exit isn't clear, apart from yellow boxes and roundabouts. And in the case of the yellow boxes and roundabouts they must not block traffic going through a different way.

As for people running reds, perhaps locking them in a room with half a dozen motorcyclists for an hour.

Advanced Go, Yellow+Red doesn't help in the grand scheme of things, you do get people starting earlier but the gain there is lost because you loose the amber-gamblers when the lights change back, so overall same volume through.

Capt'n Midnight

steinbock wrote:

techniaclly using an interchange to come off and back on to a motorway is not breaking any rules of the road though.

That's why there is a no straight ahead sign northbound on the Knocklyon? one and maybe the ballymount one - or they have done something with the roundabouts , I can't remember which

Victor

Calina wrote:

Regarding distance on the motorway/expressways: in France, they paint lines at the side of the road and remind you with signposts every so often that the distance between you and the car in front of you should be at least two of those lines.

Ah, I thought they were just being cheap with the paint.

Victor

tywy wrote:

Victor wrote:

corktina wrote:

bumper to bumper doesnt happen enough.If only some of those muppets would move up to the car in front in a q, then the queues would be shorter.....

A bunched up queue still has the same number of vehicles in it and is less safe.

well you have to think of the drivers behind you...in dublin city there can be three sets of lights within a few hundred metres of each other...if every car was close to each other there might not be a car stuck at a red light because someone didn't pull up tight.

So instead, they'll be stuck, just beyond the red light???

tywy wrote:

This also happens with yellow boxes, someone gets stuck in a yellow box because he/she thought there was enough room but there wasn't because some one decides not to pull up tight. I'm not saying bumper to bumper but some people leave half a car length between them and the car in front which is a bit much I think. The thing about yellow boxes is, that person who's stuck in the box by accident is now slowing up other traffic.

It is totally the fault of the stuckee. Half a car length is not enough space. Just because people do it, doesn't make it right. What happens if a truck runs into the read vehicle?

seamus wrote:

By far the biggest hinderance to all traffic is the existence of traffic lights.

No, the biggest hinderance to traffic is the existence of other traffic. Removing traffic lights just changes the problems.

corktina

Victor wrote:

So instead, they'll be stuck, just beyond the red light???
dont be daft..if one more vehcle got through the lights at each change, at each set of lights , it must have some effect.

as for yellow boxes...if you get caught in one it is because you didnt ensure your exit was cleasr before entering, which is the whol point of having tem.

cyclopath2001

corktina wrote:

Victor wrote:

So instead, they'll be stuck, just beyond the red light???

dont be daft..if one more vehcle got through the lights at each change, at each set of lights , it must have some effect.

The bit beyond the red light, that would be the pedestrian crossing?

seamus

Victor wrote:

No, the biggest hinderance to traffic is the existence of other traffic. Removing traffic lights just changes the problems.

*no link alert*
It's generally accepted that roundabouts have a far better throughput in terms of traffic flow than lights.
Roundabouts of course have their own problems, and shouldn't be used everywhere.
At a junction of a small road and a busy major road, getting onto the roundabout from the smaller road can be a nightmare - a situation where slip lanes and overpasses are more desirable.
At a junction of two busy major roads (think N4/M50), roundabouts simply can't work because of the volumes and speeds of traffic on both roads. This is why you put in free flow "junctions" (like they're building now) where traffic doesn't have to cross other traffic.
Large roundabouts create a pain for pedestrians and cyclists, unless dedicated under/overpasses are supplied.

There will always be places where lights will make more sense for reasons of space or logic - you wouldn't replace every junction on the north quays with roundabouts, because then you'd have to make pedestrian walkways at each junction, and no pedestrians would use them anyway. In this country though there's very little thought given to junction layouts. More often then not they'll just slap in a set of lights, with a two-minute change time, and a set of pedestrian lights that holds up all four directions for 60 seconds or more.

Victor

seamus wrote:

It's generally accepted that roundabouts have a far better throughput in terms of traffic flow than lights.

Only at lower volumes of traffic, at high volumes (grade separation aside) traffic lights are better. Hence the Malahide Raod / N32 junction was changed.

cyclopath2001

seamus wrote:

Large roundabouts create a pain for pedestrians and cyclists, unless dedicated under/overpasses are supplied.

It's not fair to force pedestrians, especially the elderly to climb stairs or go the long way around.

The fundamental reason for traffic congestion is the absurd amount of space wasted by single-occupant cars.

mackerski

cyclopath2001 wrote:

It's not fair to force pedestrians, especially the elderly to climb stairs or go the long way around.

On large junctions it's perfectly possible to have straight (in fact, better) subsurface routing for pedestrians and cyclists and gently sloping ramps instead of stairs. Of course, keeping it open enough to be safe is a challenge.

Dermot

Victor

mackerski wrote:

On large junctions it's perfectly possible to have straight (in fact, better) subsurface routing for pedestrians and cyclists and gently sloping ramps instead of stairs. Of course, keeping it open enough to be safe is a challenge.

The only place I've seen this happen is the Tallaght interchange, but even still they put boulders on the cycle paths.

steinbock

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

That's why there is a no straight ahead sign northbound on the Knocklyon? one and maybe the ballymount one - or they have done something with the roundabouts , I can't remember which

yes there is a temporary sign at the knocklyon/firhouse exit saying that, not sure how enforceable it is. has anyone ever been stopped for this ?

Funny you should mention ballymount as I often have to cross the flyover there in the evenings but am stuck at the interchange as virtually all the (northbound) traffic is going straight through to get around some traffic and get back onto the M50.