supplement help

dlofnep

I'm really not up to scratch on supplements. What I want is a shake for after training to help with muscle repair, but also maybe build muscle. I'm thinking maybe whey protein? But then again, I'm not really about all these things.

Also, perhaps if there would be something I could take before training that would help with my energy, and whatever else..

regards,
John.

john kavanagh

good diet (we all know what that is) + plenty of water. its really that simple.

when you get to the stage of training 7-8 sessions per week and are competing on a national level then i'd start worrying about supplements.

there's no magic pills out there

dlofnep

Hi John, thanks for the reply. I'm already eating as healthy as I can. I think my diet is reasonably good, and I up my carb intake for training for energy, and eat eggs after training for protein.

I'm just looking for convenience and an extra pop for competition. I don't want to be hercules but I would like the convenience of a shake after training to help build some muscle a bit.

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote:

I'm really not up to scratch on supplements. What I want is a shake for after training to help with muscle repair, but also maybe build muscle. I'm thinking maybe whey protein? But then again, I'm not really about all these things.

Also, perhaps if there would be something I could take before training that would help with my energy, and whatever else..

regards,
John.

Without looking closer at your training and present diet its hard to give you accurate advice.

A thread along these lines was posted here only recently, I'll try look for it tomorrow. But your going to find alot of conflicting information regarding suppliments.

By all mean's use whey, but only as a suppliment and not as your main source of protein. Much better to get it from chicken, red meats, eggs, fish etc and only when you can't get these suppliment your diet with protein power's/shakes.

Basically for an athlete, even training moderately you'll need 1.5-2grams of protein to 1 lean lb of body weight. To accurately record this you'll need a BF% check done, work out your BF%, deduct that from your overall weight to give you your lean weight!. Few of us, even the 'hobby martial arts' player gets enough protein into their diet due to our modern, busy life styles

Getting into Carb/protein/fat ratio's is alittle too much for this forum IMO. I'd advise you to either go to a dedicated fitness/diet forum for advice (Dragan will be better placed to advise you on this, although I can point you in the right direction if you PM me).

I might also advise you to drop into Jon's shop in Phibsboro as he carries a complete range of suppliments & is a good source of advice also.

Btw, building muscle is damn hard while training M.A. too as you'll most likely burn up the calouries on the mat that you'll need to building those muscles!.

To add muscle your talking about increasing your daily cal intake from a maintainance of probably (at present) 2000K to over 4000K... its hard!.

gymrabbit

Hi JOB,

I pretty much agree with John. You don't really need to get this type of stuff unless you're doing a lot of weights and / or training like an olympian.

I know you're a bit fan of the boxers and there aren't too many amateur boxers on anything more than protein shakes (however, i may be wrong).

Are you feeling tired before or after training? Lethargic on the mat? Or are you just trying to be as professional as possible?

I know you're trying to lose a bit of weight and I think it's very hard to be on supplements and keeping the weight down.

Bottom line - plenty of fresh fruit, veg, well cooked meat and water. When you get to the stage were you're ripped start thinking about supplementing to get yourself the extra 5%.

dlofnep

Appreciate the post Mairt.

I eat 2 boiled eggs and a can of tuna after every training session. Nothing fatty. But that's not til about 2 hours later when I get home. Should I be providing my body with protein straight after training opposed to 2 hours later.. or does it matter?

dlofnep

gymrabbit wrote:

Hi JOB,

I pretty much agree with John. You don't really need to get this type of stuff unless you're doing a lot of weights and / or training like an olympian.

I know you're a bit fan of the boxers and there aren't too many amateur boxers on anything more than protein shakes (however, i may be wrong).

Are you feeling tired before or after training? Lethargic on the mat? Or are you just trying to be as professional as possible?

I know you're trying to lose a bit of weight and I think it's very hard to be on supplements and keeping the weight down.

Bottom line - plenty of fresh fruit, veg, well cooked meat and water. When you get to the stage were you're ripped start thinking about supplementing to get yourself the extra 5%.

hey buddy,

I'm not feeling tired after training anymore.. Maybe before, but in the last 2 or 3 months, I feel refreshed and healthy.. Just muscles feel the burn the next day really hard. I can feel tired during training, but the judo classes are upping the tempo now to get in gear for competition and when I get the lungs working, I know its bettering myself.. I last the class fine, it's not really a problem. Sure I get tired, but that's just apart of it.. I guess I just want to be in tip top shape. How I go about doing this, I'm not really clued up on.

arybvtcw0eolkf

gymrabbit wrote:

Hi JOB,

I pretty much agree with John. You don't really need to get this type of stuff unless you're doing a lot of weights and / or training like an olympian.

I know you're a bit fan of the boxers and there aren't too many amateur boxers on anything more than protein shakes (however, i may be wrong).

Are you feeling tired before or after training? Lethargic on the mat? Or are you just trying to be as professional as possible?

I know you're trying to lose a bit of weight and I think it's very hard to be on supplements and keeping the weight down.

Bottom line - plenty of fresh fruit, veg, well cooked meat and water. When you get to the stage were you're ripped start thinking about supplementing to get yourself the extra 5%.

Very wrong on alot of levels.

Best advise is to visit a site specializing in dietry advice for people in training.

JK is right in so far as diet is concerned. I always advise people to spend their money on food before (food) supplements. But there does come a time when for alot of reasons a person simply can't get in enough protein/carbs/fats etc and suppliments do play a part in these people's training. You don't need to be a serious fighter/trainer/person in training to need extra suppliments in your diet.

But one caustionary word.. What you don't use up (through training) your going to piss or sh*t out, or your going to put on fat (its hard adding muscle without some fat) or your going to put your kidneys under pressure excreting all that unused protein (in way of uric acid). In short, you risk throwing alot of money down the toilet with suppliments so get your diet spot on first.

Having said that, its easier to pack a good quality protein/carb shake to work or college than a plate of chicken & rice!.

dlofnep

Yeah true that.. I think what I will do is get a protein shake for convience for after training, but stick to good old eggs, tuna and chicken for food. I'm not killing myself with a diet but tryign to keep it somewhat reasonable.

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote:

Appreciate the post Mairt.

I eat 2 boiled eggs and a can of tuna after every training session. Nothing fatty. But that's not til about 2 hours later when I get home. Should I be providing my body with protein straight after training opposed to 2 hours later.. or does it matter?

Honestly I have to hit the sack now. But two hour's is way too long, unless your dieting very hard. And even at that your going to be in a catabolic (burning muscle) stage.

Like I posted earlier, your going to get alot of conflicting information here from people (myself included) who don't know you, your training history, your present diet and life style and importantly your long term goals (short terms one's are easy to reach).

If your serious about this there are forums specializing in supplements, diets, training (weights and cardio) and even weight & cardio training/diets specific to martial arts.

gymrabbit

i think different people have different needs. For some, a piece of fruit and a chicken sandwich almost immediately after training is a good idea. If you can sort yourself out with a lunch box and preparing good meals the night before for lunch, dinner and pre/post workout it would a be good idea. I'm going to refrain from posting in this thread now so it's not cluttered up when some people with expertise come to read it.

But I suggest, a small meat and veg meal about 2 hours before you session. Possibly an apple or banana about 30mins before (keep yourself hydrated too). Immediately after you session, eat a piece of fruit again. as quick as you can after this, eat another small meat and veg meal.

I had boxing training from 6-7.30 (jog,pressups,situps,squats,shadow boxing,sparring,circuit training-(medicine ball, heavy bag, speed ball)). I ate a chicken fillet, a head of brocolli and a carrot at 3/3.30. At 5.30,5.45 I drank half a litre of water and a small apple and a small banana. At 7pm I had more water and another little apple. At 8pm I had the same meal as before training.

arybvtcw0eolkf

gymrabbit wrote:

i think different people have different needs. For some, a piece of fruit and a chicken sandwich almost immediately after training is a good idea. If you can sort yourself out with a lunch box and preparing good meals the night before for lunch, dinner and pre/post workout it would a be good idea. I'm going to refrain from posting in this thread now so it's not cluttered up when some people with expertise come to read it.

But I suggest, a small meat and veg meal about 2 hours before you session. Possibly an apple or banana about 30mins before (keep yourself hydrated too). Immediately after you session, eat a piece of fruit again. as quick as you can after this, eat another small meat and veg meal.

I had boxing training from 6-7.30 (jog,pressups,situps,squats,shadow boxing,sparring,circuit training-(medicine ball, heavy bag, speed ball)). I ate a chicken fillet, a head of brocolli and a carrot at 3/3.30. At 5.30,5.45 I drank half a litre of water and a small apple and a small banana. At 7pm I had more water and another little apple. At 8pm I had the same meal as before training.

That sounds like a nice plan there. Although someone posted here recently why a banana was a bad idea before training, can't find the post but it was good reading.

As Gymrabbit say, people have different needs and thats why a forum such as this is the wrong place to come to try and tailor your diet & nutritional needs.

Either way, supplements do have a part to play in getting those nutrients into the body, but only as a 'supplement' to a good nutritional diet, training regime & lots of rest.

columok

John,

I've started taking protein supplements immediately after training and I've found that my recovery has improved massively. I'm training up to 5/6 days a week and for example after two hours of thai on wednesday night I'd be still sore on friday- now I can train effectively on thursday. My problem was being able to take in dietary protein immediately after training rather than having a 30 minute delay in getting home and cooking (expensive) chicken breasts. I don't have time to prepare chicken and bring it along with me. So any day I train hard (as in weights/thai) I take a shake immediately (within 5 minutes of) training finishing.

I'm using the Protoplex deluxe from Holland and Barrett. On 50% off sale. They're pretty much ideal for post workout as they contain small doses of carbohydrates and some other aminobased fun.

My theory is protein shakes and help you train more and help shake off that achey feeling that might keep you on the couch. Surely thats a good thing.

Colum

Dermot Nolan

Firstly, im by no means an expert on nutrition or sports supplements. I have however tried some different brands of whey protein over the past 8 months.

I train jiu jitsu 2 nights, judo 1 night and lift weights 2 or 3 nights depending on how i feel.

I have similar goals to yourself i.e speed muscle recovery to train the following day and gain some lean muscle mass. Anyway, after trying a few brands of whey i felt i wasn't getting the results i wanted. I finally tried an "all in one shake" called cyclone. In a daily serving it provides 60g whey protein, 10g creatine monohydrate and 10g glutamine. It significantly helped my recovery, strength and i gained some lean muscle. I'd recommend giving it a try.

I was also wondering what the guys who know a lot about nutrition and supplements think of a shake of this type? Anything negative?

Dragan

I think everyone is very well aware of my stance on supplements and training but to re-iterate I feel that supplements can be absolutely invaluable to any trainee who is working hard and has there nutrition and recovery tied down. Dlofnep, I understand that you feel you have your diet tied down, but I would suggest you post it anyway? It's always worth having a look to figure out what could be tweaked or what gaps might occur without you knowing?

As for whey, I feel it is great for people who train, pretty much regardless of what they train whats that training causes some king of microtrauma to the muscle and a depletion of blood amino acids. The simple fact of it is that just after a training session, the faster you can get a supplement into your system the faster it gets to work and kicks off your recovery. I did a post a few months back on my top five supplements for fighters and whey was at the top of the list. It's cheap, it's effective, it will not interfere with the majority of dietary protocols and it does the job.

Millionaire

I take a protein shake right after Thai training to each day, and now I am going to add in Glutamine (sp??) into shake, as this helps you recover too. (or so I have been told my some body builders).

I eat very healthy, no crap and load of green veg, chicken, and very little rice which is a suprise, as this place if full of rice! and of course tons and tons of water due to heat. you can keep sweating for up to 2 hours after training with the heat, its like a sauna. and I d say its great for the body to sweat all the toxins out. (esp for me, as I am full of them!)

I take Pharmaton and other Vit supplements too.

and this is the hard part, if I am really sore or tired, I am not not afraid to skip and odd day of training and rest, insteand of being macho (the old me) pushing too much, and making it worse!

Still got a bit of a gut to loose, and that probably will take 12 months of fat burining on the thread mill to shift that on top of the Thai.

Dragan

Dermot Nolan wrote:

I have similar goals to yourself i.e speed muscle recovery to train the following day and gain some lean muscle mass. Anyway, after trying a few brands of whey i felt i wasn't getting the results i wanted. I finally tried an "all in one shake" called cyclone. In a daily serving it provides 60g whey protein, 10g creatine monohydrate and 10g glutamine. It significantly helped my recovery, strength and i gained some lean muscle. I'd recommend giving it a try.

I'm just gonna say this right now that Maximuscle are one of the WORST companies you can recommend. They are very expensive for a pretty run of the mill supplement line and you can find a much better product that Cyclone. "XXX" by Nutrition X would be my recommendation for an all in one supplement. It's cheaper than Cyclone, tastes and mixes better and contains pretty much exactly the same ingredients.

It does not however contain minute traces of other supplements like Cyclone does, and granted while they would help in the right doseage the amount the Cyclone provides is just not worth paying for as they have no benefit.

I imagine if you got good results with Cyclone you will get those same results with XXX but for a cheaper price and better value for money.

Dermot Nolan

Dragan wrote:

I imagine if you got good results with Cyclone you will get those same results with XXX but for a cheaper price and better value for money.

Thanks for the advice. I'll give it a try.

yomchi

As usual Dragan speaks good sense when it comes to supp's.

Supplements are a must for anyone who trains hard, not even 8 or 9 sessions a week.

There is a new recovery supplement on the market of late and it's getting rave reviews.

Feel free to drop into us in phibsboro for a closer look at whats available.

We have a special fighters pack which will have all your nessecery ingredients to help you train harder and recover faster.

Just say you're from boards and we'll look after you

Jon

whitelightrider

Jon,

Can you tell me whats in the fighters pack and what price it comes in at?

Jon wrote:

As usual Dragan speaks good sense when it comes to supp's.

Supplements are a must for anyone who trains hard, not even 8 or 9 sessions a week.

There is a new recovery supplement on the market of late and it's getting rave reviews.

Feel free to drop into us in phibsboro for a closer look at whats available.

We have a special fighters pack which will have all your nessecery ingredients to help you train harder and recover faster.

Just say you're from boards and we'll look after you

Jon

yomchi

whitelightrider wrote:

Jon,

Can you tell me whats in the fighters pack and what price it comes in at?

Sure mate,

The fighters pack :

1) Universal Animal Pak 44 - normally retails at 54.99

2) NutritionX R.A.M (Recovery Accelerator Matrix) 1.5kg's retails 34.99

3) Alleviate Muscle rub with willow bark and MSM (125ml) retails 19.99

4) Shaker retails 4.99

RETAIL AT - €114.96

FIGHTERS PRICE €89.99

Millionaire

Is Creatine, good for fighter training?

Would it help recovery, or give you an edge to train harder?

or what from a fighter point of view is the advantage?

Actually I cannot find Dragans post "the top 5 for fighters" so if anyone can post a link please?


I used it years back when I was doing weights lot, and it helped a bit, however it did not know that eating was important back then, so toned more than built muscle.

FiannaGym.com

I wasnt going to post on this thread because I'm sure we all know my feeling on sups. I just had to for one reason;

Eating bananas, at any and all times, is a good idea. Does anyone care what the "science" may "tell" us? No, virtually all top athletes indorse bananas, virtually anyone who eats them feels the benifit and the one dude in Fianna who doesn't eat them is the one dude who cramps regularly. (yes, we do mock him for it)

Peace

Millionaire

I used to be a huge bannana eater...somone who know very fitness and is a trainer , told me they cause (if I am saying this right) your insulin to rocket, then crash, which can leave you tired later.

Nothing like a good handful of Dianabol with morining coffee and fruit salad, to put a "sping in your step"...LOL....just joking! :-)

Had a mate you was a semi-pro cyclist, and cyclist were well know for "supplement" use, I seen him take a few as he said "good belts" of the cough bottle to get himself going when training. crazy!!!!!

Roper

Bananas are also the yummiest addition to any man's smoothie machine.

dlofnep

I always eat a banana before training. I'm going to go into town tomorrow and try get one of those all in one supplements mentioned. I think if I'm feeding my body straight after training, opposed to 2 hours later it will help.

My diet as asked is not as strict as I had it. What I try to do is to eat only eggs, tuna, chicken, broccoli and steak, along with bananas and apples. I try to drink as much water as possible. Now, I'm not very strict on this, I might eat the occasional bar of chocolate in work or whatever, but in general - I'm keeping to this.

FiannaGym.com

dlofnep wrote:

What I try to do is to eat only eggs, tuna, chicken, broccoli and steak, along with bananas and apples. I try to drink as much water as possible. Now, I'm not very strict on this, I might eat the occasional bar of chocolate in work or whatever, but in general - I'm keeping to this.

If I was you I would rethink my diet. If I was you I'd eat a much more varied diet, especially in the fruit and veg dept. Take a "leaf" out of The Natural's book and try eating a bag of green leaves (available in any suermarket). This time of year is great for satsumas and madiran oranges, which are super convienient. Couple that with some nuts after training and your flying.

An essential part of a diet like yours (which sounds almost like atkin's) is the lack of readily available fuel. I would up my intake of fruit and veg if I were you, grazing all day. That way when you are training your using energy derived from fruit not meat (your made from meat so don't burn it if you wanna build it).

I hope it goes well for you dude. I would go outta my mind with a diet like that so make sure what your eating is making you happy!

Peace
I'm heading of for a pizza and a snickers.

dlofnep

Cheers man. Yeah, I should definately add more oranges for sure. I feel myself getting colds alot lately. Overall, I think you're right, I do eat fruit, but probably not enough. I'm going to add more fruit.

What kind of nuts would you suggest?

JohnMc1

Support the Sport. Take Xyience.

arybvtcw0eolkf

JohnMc1 wrote:

Support the Sport. Take Xyience.

The thread is about supporting one's self, not the sport.

Alot of suppliments are sourced from the same supplier's anyway, and its one of the reason's I'd advoate going for the cheapest supply.

Dragan did indeed post an excellent thread on his favourite suppliments, and as I've said recently in another thread. I've met D and I have to say here, he looks like a guy who has his training, diet and rest (plus supps) spot on & I've no problem giving way to his knowledge.

JohnMc1

Mairt wrote:

The thread is about supporting one's self, not the sport.

Alot of suppliments are sourced from the same supplier's anyway, and its one of the reason's I'd advoate going for the cheapest supply.

Dragan did indeed post an excellent thread on his favourite suppliments, and as I've said recently in another thread. I've met D and I have to say here, he looks like a guy who has his training, diet and rest (plus supps) spot on & I've no problem giving way to his knowledge.

Relax Mairt. I was joking with dlofnep.

gymrabbit

i know this is a martial not a culinary arts forum i'm just wondering what fianna eats? I know he's a big fan of the terenure butcher. does he just head down grab a few slabs of random animals and cook it up with plenty of veg.

fianna give us a few auld recipes will ya?

yomchi

The simple rule of thumb for your diet is that is must be balanced for optimal health.

For energy and muscle repair for and after training you need to have a source of carbohydrate, for recovery and growth you need to have a source of protein, and for other health benifits and digestion you need to have a source of healthy fat.

Disregarding one or another of these macronutrients will leave your body performing below par.

Any athlete should be consuming at least .75g to 1g of protein per KG body weight - scientific fact.
To keep your diet balanced you need to double the in take of carbs to protein with a ratio of 2:1.
What type of carbs you use and when you use them is down to your type and time of training.

you need to be careful dishing out nutritional advice to others based on your own beliefs, encouraging someone who, may not know they have a potassium intolerance problem, or more common, a banana intolerance problem - to eat lots of banana'a will make them ill, with such conditions as asthma disorders, dermatitis and urticaria to name but a few.

Its a small gripe of mine with the MA forum, when I hear people rubbish supplement use as if it was poison in a box.
Supplements are simply that - supplements! an add on to a proper diet. They are natural food products made into a handy form for consumption -end of!

They don't make you ill (unless you suffer with intolerance problems) they don't contain banned substances, they don't make you fat, they don't turn you into a body builder and using them doesn't mean your cheating.
Which are some of the crazy myths attached to supplements and their use I've heard over the last while.

An over consumption of fruit can be harmful too, the fructose contained in them will of course set your blood sugar levels soaring which induces the body to secrete insulin which is an anabolic hormone which encourages and uses fat cells as part of its job to reduce your sugar levels. The insulin spike and immediate sugar crash can leave some with a craving for more sugar, and in a some cases can leave you feeling moody. This is not strictly something that fruit does but any food product containing sugars or simple carbs.

Should anyone care what science tells us - absolutely yes. To discard the very art and work of the human body is a big mistake IMO.

Its not rocket science, as athletes we train our bodies. We put them through severe and tough regimes.. just see the training the guys had to do at SBG northside in a recent post - its tough going!

After such training your body is in a state of shock and goes into immediate repair. Now what are you going to feed it to help it on its way? What are you going to feed it to bring it back up to optimal use?
What are you going to feed it to prevent muscle breakdown and replace lost fluid and glycogen? Banana's?

IMO too many irish athletes disregard nutrition and have a complete misunderstanding of it!

Rant over, now who has that snickers?

Roper

Jon wrote:

IMO too many irish athletes disregard nutrition and have a complete misunderstanding of it!

I understand what you're saying John and you're right. But your points assume that you're always dealing with athletes. When it comes to martial artists, I'd go so far as to say that about 10% will have some concept of what it is to be an athlete. (In my experience anyway)

Out of the guys who take supplements, how many of these do you think have their diet spot on? I'd say very few. Right now, my diet is frustratingly good and I also take a post training shake, but I still ask myself if there's more I could be doing diet-wise.

I would say that your training would have to be very intense before supplementing comes into play, and without meaning offense to anyone, I seriously doubt that many people in martial arts reach that level of intensity.

On the anecdote front, I remember a guy who used to be in the same TKD org as me going on about his training and how much weight he could push and how much his body needed supplements to sustain blah blah blah. But he always gassed in sparring. He was on a cocktail of about 3 or 4 supplements of which creatine was one. Anyway, me and a mate were in the gym one day and he was swigging a creatine shake from his bottle and doing one bench press every half hour or so. Anyway we all met in the changing room afterwards and he took his top off to reveal a massive pot belly and one of the nicest pairs of baps I've ever seen in my life. The only supplement he needed was a wonderbra.

Dragan

Roper wrote:

Out of the guys who take supplements, how many of these do you think have their diet spot on? I'd say very few. Right now, my diet is frustratingly good and I also take a post training shake, but I still ask myself if there's more I could be doing diet-wise.

I'm really glad to see that Barry made this point. The point I always try and put across is that a supplement will do nothing without the proper ground work being put into your diet. You may see some benefit from taking creatine, or whey, or a post workout cocktail…..but it's effect will hinge on how well your daily diet hangs together.

Right now, I am on a pretty harsh "cut" as I try and become leaner and leaner. I'm very supplement heavy during the day to spare muscle mass as I am functioning on 66% of my maintanence calorie rate. This is all bodybuilder stuff but it works for what my current goals are.. Would I be able to train as I would were I more MA orientated right now? No way! Would I change my diet and supplements if I were? Hell yeah!!!!

90% of the time, for me, my diet is everything a "normal" persons should be, no matter what they are doing. The vital thing is portion control. My "average" daily diet outside of a cut would look like this.

Breakfast 08:00 : 2 egg whites, 2 whole eggs, tomato and onion omlette, 2 spoons olive oil and sometimes some cheese. I will also have a small amount of oats.
Meal 1 : 11:00 : chicken breast, broc, cauliflower, spinach, table spoon of sesame seed oil. Some walnut halves.
Meal 2 : 14:00 : tuna, an egg, spinach, broc, carrot, some sesame seed oil.
Meal 3 : 17:00 : chicken breast, broc, cauliflower, spinach, sesame seed oil.
Meal 4 : 20:15 : chicken/fish/steak, peppers, onion, garlic and some wholewheat pasta.
Meal 5 : 23:00 : Dragan's special Anabolic Shake.

I would throw in some fruit as the mood struck me.

On training days I will have something before and after I train in the form of a shake. Why? Because I'm doing some pretty large scale muscle fibre microtrauma and it helps me recover. However, if you look at my diet, you will see that it in conjunction with a strong multivitamin is giving me everything I need to function on a daily basis and even train to a large degree. It's just that I train harder the your average gym rat, and I have found the best supplements to compensate for that.

There is a massive difference between having you diet "okay" and having your diet flawless and covering everything you need. From my own anecdotal experience, when I was younger it was all about the supplements, now I have my diet tied down I see far more benefit from the supplements that I do use, because my diet is spot on to my needs.

When your looking beyond training, it's Diet first, supplements second.

If there is a gap in your diet, fix it. Then look to a supplement for extra help.

Millionaire

So would any of the lads who know there diet/supplement stuff, take a stab,
and from a fighters point of view say boxer, kickboxer, MMA, guy training 5 times a week or moew ...lay out a sample meal/supplement day that such a competitive athlete might eat....?

yomchi

Roper wrote:

I understand what you're saying John and you're right. But your points assume that you're always dealing with athletes. When it comes to martial artists, I'd go so far as to say that about 10% will have some concept of what it is to be an athlete. (In my experience anyway)

Out of the guys who take supplements, how many of these do you think have their diet spot on? I'd say very few. Right now, my diet is frustratingly good and I also take a post training shake, but I still ask myself if there's more I could be doing diet-wise.

I would say that your training would have to be very intense before supplementing comes into play, and without meaning offense to anyone, I seriously doubt that many people in martial arts reach that level of intensity.

On the anecdote front, I remember a guy who used to be in the same TKD org as me going on about his training and how much weight he could push and how much his body needed supplements to sustain blah blah blah. But he always gassed in sparring. He was on a cocktail of about 3 or 4 supplements of which creatine was one. Anyway, me and a mate were in the gym one day and he was swigging a creatine shake from his bottle and doing one bench press every half hour or so. Anyway we all met in the changing room afterwards and he took his top off to reveal a massive pot belly and one of the nicest pairs of baps I've ever seen in my life. The only supplement he needed was a wonderbra.

LOL I think I know who you're talking about

Anyway, yeh you are right of course. But when I say athlete I mean anyone who is training to compete and training hard to be at the top of their pile.

As I said in my post, supplements are exactly that - supplements an add on to a proper diet. They are not magic pills and they are not magic potions - if i could only find what Astrex used to take in them there potions

You do get guys who horse back all sorts and have crap diets, like the person you mentioned in your post. The result of that is of course the lovely big pot belly!

what part of your diet is frustating you?

Roper

Jon wrote:

LOL I think I know who you're talking about

Would some sort of device for holding fluids be a hint? Never mind if not!

what part of your diet is frustating you?

Hmmm, well, let me see, not eating burgers, pizza, especially Rebel Pizza, any chinese food, chocolate, oh how I love chocolate, cakes, especially chocolate cake, popcorn, spaghetti, sausages, rashers, fried bread like my Da makes, hash browns, Indian food, especially Korma, and also any other dish you might see on an Indian menu... actually basically everything now that I think of it. I love my food.

Funny thing is (with the exception of chocolate) normally I would eat something off that list maybe once a week, and the rest of my diet would be quite balanced, but I miss being able to eat something and not go "Oh bugger, I'll feel that tommorrow". I had the best part of a large bag of M&Ms and some Coke last week and I woke up with a hangover!!!:D Thats how regulated my diet has been!

yomchi

Roper wrote:

Would some sort of device for holding fluids be a hint? Never mind if not!


Hmmm, well, let me see, not eating burgers, pizza, especially Rebel Pizza, any chinese food, chocolate, oh how I love chocolate, cakes, especially chocolate cake, popcorn, spaghetti, sausages, rashers, fried bread like my Da makes, hash browns, Indian food, especially Korma, and also any other dish you might see on an Indian menu... actually basically everything now that I think of it. I love my food.

Funny thing is (with the exception of chocolate) normally I would eat something off that list maybe once a week, and the rest of my diet would be quite balanced, but I miss being able to eat something and not go "Oh bugger, I'll feel that tommorrow". I had the best part of a large bag of M&Ms and some Coke last week and I woke up with a hangover!!!:D Thats how regulated my diet has been!

If you are sticking to a good diet, there is no problem having cheat days! Even for sanity's sake! There are evenings where I just let my hair down scoff a pizza or a snack box... hmmm i can taste that skin already lol

As for the device for holding fluid - that'll be the one!

yomchi

Just to harp back to some of the crap you hear about supplements.
I was at a seminar earlier in the year, I was partnered off with this french guy who never trainied in his life. He was feeding me the pads during some clinch work and he cut his finger and spent 10 mins in the tiolet with a scrape. A right moron.
During the break, he made a hu-ha over me having a protein shake claiming I was cheating..

Man when we went back to clinch work he enjoyed driving them knees into him



This is me over doing it, and him on the floor!

Millionaire

Jon wrote:

I was at a seminar earlier in the year, I was partnered off with this french guy who never trainied in his life. He was feeding me the pads during some clinch work and he cut his finger and spent 10 mins in the tiolet with a scrape. A right moron.



This is me over doing it, and him on the floor!

LOL! SD seminars/courses are prone to attract such types.

I gently hit a technique based SD guy, with a few thai kicks, and I never heard such whining and moaning in my life. strangely he was french too! He actually made a formal complaint to the instructor about me brutalizing him. all over a few little shin kicks to his leg. (actually I had him pinned to the wall, and kept gently throwing the kicks in for badness, and he was trying all these karate blocks in a fit of panic, like a bird trying to flap its wings LOL ). After the told me my style and technique was bad and useless! (Typical French arrogant as Fook even after getting a beating).

john kavanagh

lol that reads like you both enjoy beating on guys that are weak

also the setting for that seminar looks both strange (the 80's tinsel) and dangerous (plenty of hard sharp edges to come down on)

yomchi

lol that reads like you both enjoy beating on guys that are weak

You're reading it wrong John, or assuming thats what its about.

Would you recommend holding back in your training because someone isn't able for it? Everyone was getting stuck into the pads. I paid the same money as everyone else - I should be able to train hard with the group and not pussy foot around some guy who claimed to be ex foreign legion and couldn't keep his footing.

Dragan

Jon wrote:

Would you recommend holding back in your training because someone isn't able for it? Everyone was getting stuck into the pads. I paid the same money as everyone else - I should be able to train hard with the group and not pussy foot around some guy who claimed to be ex foreign legion and couldn't keep his footing.

Funnily enough I'm a knees and elbows man....i have a good left jab, a good right hook and a good left kick, everything else sucks depending on what side you go to. Yet knees and elbows i can put in all day, from each side.

One day in training we were doing some knees and elbows and this big lanky fella was partnered up with me. He was a good kick boxer , and an awkward spar and i was delighted to finally be in my element with him as he had really punished me in sparring the week before!!!

As we were working knees i was clinching him sticking up a good left knee, then jumping into the right one. Sure enough, he didn't like it purely because i was putting in harder knees and elbows than he could and i was going maybe 50%. As such he started holding the pads quite poorly, and i was tempering my shots even more because i didn't want to hurt him accidentally.

Personally, whether i am good at something or not, or like one particular aspect of the game or not i will always train to my partners benefit when it is my time to spar with them, hold pads, work on technique or whatever, especially people who will have a fight coming up.

I don't think it's too much to expect the same in return!!!

yomchi

Personally, whether i am good at something or not, or like one particular aspect of the game or not i will always train to my partners benefit when it is my time to spar with them, hold pads, work on technique or whatever, especially people who will have a fight coming up

In that case you will always be training to your partners potential - and not yours! Vice versa, if you are training with a partner who is more advanced than you and he worked to your level, you are missing out on learning some valuable tips from him. Hence why its always better to spar someone better than you inorder for you to learn and improve. I've sparred with former european FC champions and they do the pads with me, if im sparring and he see's my hands down he'll let me know and clobber me.. I wouldn't expect him to take it handy just for my sake, especially if your seeking improvement!

You spar to improve your technique, your speed, your precision your stamina etc etc.. if you only train to the potential of a weak partner, improvement in this field is beyond reach.

I remember back in 1992, boxing in Phibsboro ABC. Steve Collins came into train there as he did regularly.
He was feeding the pads for us at the time. I always remember him giving us a lecture about how important it is to train to your full potential and if you've got a training partner that holds you back, or complains, or makes training difficult - send him on his way, reminding him its a full contact sport.

If you're serious about training, and you attend class to improve yourself, you shouldn't feel like you have to take it handy because some one else isn't able for it.

Dragan

Jon wrote:

You spar to improve your technique, your speed, your precision your stamina etc etc.. if you only train to the potential of a weak partner, improvement is beyond reach.

I see your point, but it's not really what i meant. Normally in the class structure that i would attend we just "spar around the room" at the end. In that we do a round or two with everyone there to face different opponents of size and structure etc.

At my size, there is no point in going in heavy with my preferred style against some of them, i would knock them through the wall!!!! Lets say i am sparring an 80kilo guy who is not that fast....unless he has mad kicks or something there is not so much benefit to me sparring him, so i will make sure i give him a tough spar, i will fight awkward and give him a style he is maybe not so good at dealing with the improve his game.

I can fight lefty or righty, and will happily throw in stance switches half way through....i'm also effectively right handed and left foot, leading off the left foot normally and no one ever really expects me lead kick to pack what it does.

All in all, i will give some guys a bit more attention when i spar them because i know that some guys give me a bit more when they spar me, and this way we improve the whole class.

I would hate to think of some of the guys in my class going full pelt on me. :eek:

john kavanagh

Jon wrote:

Would you recommend holding back in your training because someone isn't able for it?

i'd recommend training with someone who is able for it.
from the pic and description it looks like you've knocked him onto the floor (but i could be wrong?), dangerously close to where he could've hit his head off that speaker and/or chair.

Jon wrote:

I should be able to train hard with the group and not pussy foot

imo if you want to train hard hitting pads then you go to a proper striking gym like bridgestone/chupasart/boxing club. there'll be plenty of lads there that'll keep with yah no probs i dont think you're going to find many decent pad men at a SD seminar in fairness

Jon wrote:

some guy who claimed to be ex foreign legion and couldn't keep his footing.

its been my experience that a lot of guys at these type of seminars have 'special forces' fantasies - get all the combat gear, clip it knives etc but are way out of shape and couldn't jog around the block.

but i dont think it makes it right to hammer him because he couldn't keep with you but hey just my opinion. like i said, personally, if i wanted to do a proper pads session i'd go to a proper pads man - someone like paddy clint or paul kelly

yomchi

i'm also effectively right handed and left foot

awkward git

I would hate to think of some of the guys in my class going full pelt on me.

Going full pelt in sparring is great once you have someone as good or even better that you!

Where are you training at the mo anyways? Are you going to Armageddon?

Dragan

Jon wrote:

Where are you training at the mo anyways? Are you going to Armageddon?

Right now all my MA has taken a backseat due to the bodybuilding, and also the fact that i tore up my left knee. It will be better in time though so i can go back to it. When i do it will be MMA, i also hear everyone talking about this BJJ stuff and will most likely do some classes in that as well.

yomchi

from the pic and description it looks like you've knocked him onto the floor

He actually lost his balance, the pic is me helping him back up! He travelled quite a distance and landed beside the chair. Which yes was dangerous. Actually the venue wasn't ideal.

imo if you want to train hard hitting pads then you go to a proper striking gym like bridgestone/chupasart/boxing club. there'll be plenty of lads there that'll keep with yah no probs i dont think you're going to find many decent pad men at a SD seminar in fairness

Yep good point agreed.

but i dont think it makes it right to hammer him because he couldn't keep with you but hey just my opinion.

To say I was hammering him would make it sound personal. I was hammering the pads (well trying to) as per instruction, and not just because he couldn't keep up. The training was intense and It was frustrating as he was complaining about a scratch on his hand from the pad which held up mine and our training.
But point accepted

john kavanagh

Jon wrote:

The training was intense and It was frustrating as he was complaining about a scratch on his hand from the pad which held up mine and our training.

i can understand this too! he doesn't sound like the ideal training partner haha

good luck with your training

btw that 'fighter pack' looks like very good deal - i'll be recommending that to guys from my place if they are looking for that type of thing