supplement help

dlofnep

I'm really not up to scratch on supplements. What I want is a shake for after training to help with muscle repair, but also maybe build muscle. I'm thinking maybe whey protein? But then again, I'm not really about all these things.

Also, perhaps if there would be something I could take before training that would help with my energy, and whatever else..

regards,
John.

john kavanagh

good diet (we all know what that is) + plenty of water. its really that simple.

when you get to the stage of training 7-8 sessions per week and are competing on a national level then i'd start worrying about supplements.

there's no magic pills out there

dlofnep

Hi John, thanks for the reply. I'm already eating as healthy as I can. I think my diet is reasonably good, and I up my carb intake for training for energy, and eat eggs after training for protein.

I'm just looking for convenience and an extra pop for competition. I don't want to be hercules but I would like the convenience of a shake after training to help build some muscle a bit.

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote:

I'm really not up to scratch on supplements. What I want is a shake for after training to help with muscle repair, but also maybe build muscle. I'm thinking maybe whey protein? But then again, I'm not really about all these things.

Also, perhaps if there would be something I could take before training that would help with my energy, and whatever else..

regards,
John.

Without looking closer at your training and present diet its hard to give you accurate advice.

A thread along these lines was posted here only recently, I'll try look for it tomorrow. But your going to find alot of conflicting information regarding suppliments.

By all mean's use whey, but only as a suppliment and not as your main source of protein. Much better to get it from chicken, red meats, eggs, fish etc and only when you can't get these suppliment your diet with protein power's/shakes.

Basically for an athlete, even training moderately you'll need 1.5-2grams of protein to 1 lean lb of body weight. To accurately record this you'll need a BF% check done, work out your BF%, deduct that from your overall weight to give you your lean weight!. Few of us, even the 'hobby martial arts' player gets enough protein into their diet due to our modern, busy life styles

Getting into Carb/protein/fat ratio's is alittle too much for this forum IMO. I'd advise you to either go to a dedicated fitness/diet forum for advice (Dragan will be better placed to advise you on this, although I can point you in the right direction if you PM me).

I might also advise you to drop into Jon's shop in Phibsboro as he carries a complete range of suppliments & is a good source of advice also.

Btw, building muscle is damn hard while training M.A. too as you'll most likely burn up the calouries on the mat that you'll need to building those muscles!.

To add muscle your talking about increasing your daily cal intake from a maintainance of probably (at present) 2000K to over 4000K... its hard!.

gymrabbit

Hi JOB,

I pretty much agree with John. You don't really need to get this type of stuff unless you're doing a lot of weights and / or training like an olympian.

I know you're a bit fan of the boxers and there aren't too many amateur boxers on anything more than protein shakes (however, i may be wrong).

Are you feeling tired before or after training? Lethargic on the mat? Or are you just trying to be as professional as possible?

I know you're trying to lose a bit of weight and I think it's very hard to be on supplements and keeping the weight down.

Bottom line - plenty of fresh fruit, veg, well cooked meat and water. When you get to the stage were you're ripped start thinking about supplementing to get yourself the extra 5%.

dlofnep

Appreciate the post Mairt.

I eat 2 boiled eggs and a can of tuna after every training session. Nothing fatty. But that's not til about 2 hours later when I get home. Should I be providing my body with protein straight after training opposed to 2 hours later.. or does it matter?

dlofnep

gymrabbit wrote:

Hi JOB,

I pretty much agree with John. You don't really need to get this type of stuff unless you're doing a lot of weights and / or training like an olympian.

I know you're a bit fan of the boxers and there aren't too many amateur boxers on anything more than protein shakes (however, i may be wrong).

Are you feeling tired before or after training? Lethargic on the mat? Or are you just trying to be as professional as possible?

I know you're trying to lose a bit of weight and I think it's very hard to be on supplements and keeping the weight down.

Bottom line - plenty of fresh fruit, veg, well cooked meat and water. When you get to the stage were you're ripped start thinking about supplementing to get yourself the extra 5%.

hey buddy,

I'm not feeling tired after training anymore.. Maybe before, but in the last 2 or 3 months, I feel refreshed and healthy.. Just muscles feel the burn the next day really hard. I can feel tired during training, but the judo classes are upping the tempo now to get in gear for competition and when I get the lungs working, I know its bettering myself.. I last the class fine, it's not really a problem. Sure I get tired, but that's just apart of it.. I guess I just want to be in tip top shape. How I go about doing this, I'm not really clued up on.

arybvtcw0eolkf

gymrabbit wrote:

Hi JOB,

I pretty much agree with John. You don't really need to get this type of stuff unless you're doing a lot of weights and / or training like an olympian.

I know you're a bit fan of the boxers and there aren't too many amateur boxers on anything more than protein shakes (however, i may be wrong).

Are you feeling tired before or after training? Lethargic on the mat? Or are you just trying to be as professional as possible?

I know you're trying to lose a bit of weight and I think it's very hard to be on supplements and keeping the weight down.

Bottom line - plenty of fresh fruit, veg, well cooked meat and water. When you get to the stage were you're ripped start thinking about supplementing to get yourself the extra 5%.

Very wrong on alot of levels.

Best advise is to visit a site specializing in dietry advice for people in training.

JK is right in so far as diet is concerned. I always advise people to spend their money on food before (food) supplements. But there does come a time when for alot of reasons a person simply can't get in enough protein/carbs/fats etc and suppliments do play a part in these people's training. You don't need to be a serious fighter/trainer/person in training to need extra suppliments in your diet.

But one caustionary word.. What you don't use up (through training) your going to piss or sh*t out, or your going to put on fat (its hard adding muscle without some fat) or your going to put your kidneys under pressure excreting all that unused protein (in way of uric acid). In short, you risk throwing alot of money down the toilet with suppliments so get your diet spot on first.

Having said that, its easier to pack a good quality protein/carb shake to work or college than a plate of chicken & rice!.

dlofnep

Yeah true that.. I think what I will do is get a protein shake for convience for after training, but stick to good old eggs, tuna and chicken for food. I'm not killing myself with a diet but tryign to keep it somewhat reasonable.

arybvtcw0eolkf

dlofnep wrote:

Appreciate the post Mairt.

I eat 2 boiled eggs and a can of tuna after every training session. Nothing fatty. But that's not til about 2 hours later when I get home. Should I be providing my body with protein straight after training opposed to 2 hours later.. or does it matter?

Honestly I have to hit the sack now. But two hour's is way too long, unless your dieting very hard. And even at that your going to be in a catabolic (burning muscle) stage.

Like I posted earlier, your going to get alot of conflicting information here from people (myself included) who don't know you, your training history, your present diet and life style and importantly your long term goals (short terms one's are easy to reach).

If your serious about this there are forums specializing in supplements, diets, training (weights and cardio) and even weight & cardio training/diets specific to martial arts.

gymrabbit

i think different people have different needs. For some, a piece of fruit and a chicken sandwich almost immediately after training is a good idea. If you can sort yourself out with a lunch box and preparing good meals the night before for lunch, dinner and pre/post workout it would a be good idea. I'm going to refrain from posting in this thread now so it's not cluttered up when some people with expertise come to read it.

But I suggest, a small meat and veg meal about 2 hours before you session. Possibly an apple or banana about 30mins before (keep yourself hydrated too). Immediately after you session, eat a piece of fruit again. as quick as you can after this, eat another small meat and veg meal.

I had boxing training from 6-7.30 (jog,pressups,situps,squats,shadow boxing,sparring,circuit training-(medicine ball, heavy bag, speed ball)). I ate a chicken fillet, a head of brocolli and a carrot at 3/3.30. At 5.30,5.45 I drank half a litre of water and a small apple and a small banana. At 7pm I had more water and another little apple. At 8pm I had the same meal as before training.

arybvtcw0eolkf

gymrabbit wrote:

i think different people have different needs. For some, a piece of fruit and a chicken sandwich almost immediately after training is a good idea. If you can sort yourself out with a lunch box and preparing good meals the night before for lunch, dinner and pre/post workout it would a be good idea. I'm going to refrain from posting in this thread now so it's not cluttered up when some people with expertise come to read it.

But I suggest, a small meat and veg meal about 2 hours before you session. Possibly an apple or banana about 30mins before (keep yourself hydrated too). Immediately after you session, eat a piece of fruit again. as quick as you can after this, eat another small meat and veg meal.

I had boxing training from 6-7.30 (jog,pressups,situps,squats,shadow boxing,sparring,circuit training-(medicine ball, heavy bag, speed ball)). I ate a chicken fillet, a head of brocolli and a carrot at 3/3.30. At 5.30,5.45 I drank half a litre of water and a small apple and a small banana. At 7pm I had more water and another little apple. At 8pm I had the same meal as before training.

That sounds like a nice plan there. Although someone posted here recently why a banana was a bad idea before training, can't find the post but it was good reading.

As Gymrabbit say, people have different needs and thats why a forum such as this is the wrong place to come to try and tailor your diet & nutritional needs.

Either way, supplements do have a part to play in getting those nutrients into the body, but only as a 'supplement' to a good nutritional diet, training regime & lots of rest.

John,

I've started taking protein supplements immediately after training and I've found that my recovery has improved massively. I'm training up to 5/6 days a week and for example after two hours of thai on wednesday night I'd be still sore on friday- now I can train effectively on thursday. My problem was being able to take in dietary protein immediately after training rather than having a 30 minute delay in getting home and cooking (expensive) chicken breasts. I don't have time to prepare chicken and bring it along with me. So any day I train hard (as in weights/thai) I take a shake immediately (within 5 minutes of) training finishing.

I'm using the Protoplex deluxe from Holland and Barrett. On 50% off sale. They're pretty much ideal for post workout as they contain small doses of carbohydrates and some other aminobased fun.

My theory is protein shakes and help you train more and help shake off that achey feeling that might keep you on the couch. Surely thats a good thing.

Colum

Dermot Nolan

Firstly, im by no means an expert on nutrition or sports supplements. I have however tried some different brands of whey protein over the past 8 months.

I train jiu jitsu 2 nights, judo 1 night and lift weights 2 or 3 nights depending on how i feel.

I have similar goals to yourself i.e speed muscle recovery to train the following day and gain some lean muscle mass. Anyway, after trying a few brands of whey i felt i wasn't getting the results i wanted. I finally tried an "all in one shake" called cyclone. In a daily serving it provides 60g whey protein, 10g creatine monohydrate and 10g glutamine. It significantly helped my recovery, strength and i gained some lean muscle. I'd recommend giving it a try.

I was also wondering what the guys who know a lot about nutrition and supplements think of a shake of this type? Anything negative?

Dragan

I think everyone is very well aware of my stance on supplements and training but to re-iterate I feel that supplements can be absolutely invaluable to any trainee who is working hard and has there nutrition and recovery tied down. Dlofnep, I understand that you feel you have your diet tied down, but I would suggest you post it anyway? It's always worth having a look to figure out what could be tweaked or what gaps might occur without you knowing?

As for whey, I feel it is great for people who train, pretty much regardless of what they train whats that training causes some king of microtrauma to the muscle and a depletion of blood amino acids. The simple fact of it is that just after a training session, the faster you can get a supplement into your system the faster it gets to work and kicks off your recovery. I did a post a few months back on my top five supplements for fighters and whey was at the top of the list. It's cheap, it's effective, it will not interfere with the majority of dietary protocols and it does the job.

Millionaire

I take a protein shake right after Thai training to each day, and now I am going to add in Glutamine (sp??) into shake, as this helps you recover too. (or so I have been told my some body builders).

I eat very healthy, no crap and load of green veg, chicken, and very little rice which is a suprise, as this place if full of rice! and of course tons and tons of water due to heat. you can keep sweating for up to 2 hours after training with the heat, its like a sauna. and I d say its great for the body to sweat all the toxins out. (esp for me, as I am full of them!)

I take Pharmaton and other Vit supplements too.

and this is the hard part, if I am really sore or tired, I am not not afraid to skip and odd day of training and rest, insteand of being macho (the old me) pushing too much, and making it worse!

Still got a bit of a gut to loose, and that probably will take 12 months of fat burining on the thread mill to shift that on top of the Thai.

Dragan

Dermot Nolan wrote:

I have similar goals to yourself i.e speed muscle recovery to train the following day and gain some lean muscle mass. Anyway, after trying a few brands of whey i felt i wasn't getting the results i wanted. I finally tried an "all in one shake" called cyclone. In a daily serving it provides 60g whey protein, 10g creatine monohydrate and 10g glutamine. It significantly helped my recovery, strength and i gained some lean muscle. I'd recommend giving it a try.

I'm just gonna say this right now that Maximuscle are one of the WORST companies you can recommend. They are very expensive for a pretty run of the mill supplement line and you can find a much better product that Cyclone. "XXX" by Nutrition X would be my recommendation for an all in one supplement. It's cheaper than Cyclone, tastes and mixes better and contains pretty much exactly the same ingredients.

It does not however contain minute traces of other supplements like Cyclone does, and granted while they would help in the right doseage the amount the Cyclone provides is just not worth paying for as they have no benefit.

I imagine if you got good results with Cyclone you will get those same results with XXX but for a cheaper price and better value for money.

Dermot Nolan

Dragan wrote:

I imagine if you got good results with Cyclone you will get those same results with XXX but for a cheaper price and better value for money.

Thanks for the advice. I'll give it a try.

yomchi

As usual Dragan speaks good sense when it comes to supp's.

Supplements are a must for anyone who trains hard, not even 8 or 9 sessions a week.

There is a new recovery supplement on the market of late and it's getting rave reviews.

Feel free to drop into us in phibsboro for a closer look at whats available.

We have a special fighters pack which will have all your nessecery ingredients to help you train harder and recover faster.

Just say you're from boards and we'll look after you

Jon

whitelightrider

Jon,

Can you tell me whats in the fighters pack and what price it comes in at?

Jon wrote:

As usual Dragan speaks good sense when it comes to supp's.

Supplements are a must for anyone who trains hard, not even 8 or 9 sessions a week.

There is a new recovery supplement on the market of late and it's getting rave reviews.

Feel free to drop into us in phibsboro for a closer look at whats available.

We have a special fighters pack which will have all your nessecery ingredients to help you train harder and recover faster.

Just say you're from boards and we'll look after you

Jon

yomchi

whitelightrider wrote:

Jon,

Can you tell me whats in the fighters pack and what price it comes in at?

Sure mate,

The fighters pack :

1) Universal Animal Pak 44 - normally retails at 54.99

2) NutritionX R.A.M (Recovery Accelerator Matrix) 1.5kg's retails 34.99

3) Alleviate Muscle rub with willow bark and MSM (125ml) retails 19.99

4) Shaker retails 4.99

RETAIL AT - €114.96

FIGHTERS PRICE €89.99

Millionaire

Is Creatine, good for fighter training?

Would it help recovery, or give you an edge to train harder?

or what from a fighter point of view is the advantage?

Actually I cannot find Dragans post "the top 5 for fighters" so if anyone can post a link please?


I used it years back when I was doing weights lot, and it helped a bit, however it did not know that eating was important back then, so toned more than built muscle.

FiannaGym.com

I wasnt going to post on this thread because I'm sure we all know my feeling on sups. I just had to for one reason;

Eating bananas, at any and all times, is a good idea. Does anyone care what the "science" may "tell" us? No, virtually all top athletes indorse bananas, virtually anyone who eats them feels the benifit and the one dude in Fianna who doesn't eat them is the one dude who cramps regularly. (yes, we do mock him for it)

Peace

Millionaire

I used to be a huge bannana eater...somone who know very fitness and is a trainer , told me they cause (if I am saying this right) your insulin to rocket, then crash, which can leave you tired later.

Nothing like a good handful of Dianabol with morining coffee and fruit salad, to put a "sping in your step"...LOL....just joking! :-)

Had a mate you was a semi-pro cyclist, and cyclist were well know for "supplement" use, I seen him take a few as he said "good belts" of the cough bottle to get himself going when training. crazy!!!!!

Roper

Bananas are also the yummiest addition to any man's smoothie machine.

dlofnep

I always eat a banana before training. I'm going to go into town tomorrow and try get one of those all in one supplements mentioned. I think if I'm feeding my body straight after training, opposed to 2 hours later it will help.

My diet as asked is not as strict as I had it. What I try to do is to eat only eggs, tuna, chicken, broccoli and steak, along with bananas and apples. I try to drink as much water as possible. Now, I'm not very strict on this, I might eat the occasional bar of chocolate in work or whatever, but in general - I'm keeping to this.

FiannaGym.com

dlofnep wrote:

What I try to do is to eat only eggs, tuna, chicken, broccoli and steak, along with bananas and apples. I try to drink as much water as possible. Now, I'm not very strict on this, I might eat the occasional bar of chocolate in work or whatever, but in general - I'm keeping to this.

If I was you I would rethink my diet. If I was you I'd eat a much more varied diet, especially in the fruit and veg dept. Take a "leaf" out of The Natural's book and try eating a bag of green leaves (available in any suermarket). This time of year is great for satsumas and madiran oranges, which are super convienient. Couple that with some nuts after training and your flying.

An essential part of a diet like yours (which sounds almost like atkin's) is the lack of readily available fuel. I would up my intake of fruit and veg if I were you, grazing all day. That way when you are training your using energy derived from fruit not meat (your made from meat so don't burn it if you wanna build it).

I hope it goes well for you dude. I would go outta my mind with a diet like that so make sure what your eating is making you happy!

Peace
I'm heading of for a pizza and a snickers.

dlofnep

Cheers man. Yeah, I should definately add more oranges for sure. I feel myself getting colds alot lately. Overall, I think you're right, I do eat fruit, but probably not enough. I'm going to add more fruit.

What kind of nuts would you suggest?

JohnMc1

Support the Sport. Take Xyience.

arybvtcw0eolkf

JohnMc1 wrote:

Support the Sport. Take Xyience.

The thread is about supporting one's self, not the sport.

Alot of suppliments are sourced from the same supplier's anyway, and its one of the reason's I'd advoate going for the cheapest supply.

Dragan did indeed post an excellent thread on his favourite suppliments, and as I've said recently in another thread. I've met D and I have to say here, he looks like a guy who has his training, diet and rest (plus supps) spot on & I've no problem giving way to his knowledge.

JohnMc1

Mairt wrote:

The thread is about supporting one's self, not the sport.

Alot of suppliments are sourced from the same supplier's anyway, and its one of the reason's I'd advoate going for the cheapest supply.

Dragan did indeed post an excellent thread on his favourite suppliments, and as I've said recently in another thread. I've met D and I have to say here, he looks like a guy who has his training, diet and rest (plus supps) spot on & I've no problem giving way to his knowledge.

Relax Mairt. I was joking with dlofnep.