4th best in the world?

Tabnabs

The latest list from the UNDP (United Nations Development Program)

UNDP Top 20
1 Norway
2 Iceland
3 Australia
4 Ireland
5 Sweden
6 Canada
7 Japan
8 United States
9 Switzerland
10 Netherlands
11 Finland
12 Luxembourg
13 Belgium
14 Austria
15 Denmark
16 France
17 Italy
18 United Kingdom
19 Spain
20 New Zealand

The list is based on statistics on life expectancy, education levels and gross national product per inhabitant.

I never knew we had it so good???

Andrew 83

While that is good news to an extent wait until the UN Human Poverty Index for the year is released (can't find it on the website yet). The UN considers this a better indicator than the Human Development Index. Last year despite a similarly high placing in the Development Index, we were second bottom after the US in the poverty index placings for selected OECD countries. A high placing in the Development Index is good but no excuse for complacency in tackling poverty!!

DadaKopf

That's a bit of a jump alright. Last year, we were ranked 8th. In 2004, we were ranked 10th, and 12th in 2003.

Year on year, Ireland's Human Development Index has been gradually improving.

But rankings are relative, for example, are we going up because other countries are going down? The figures that the HDI are based on are from 2004, so they aren't exactly up-to-date.

And while the UNDP HDI is a much better measure of development than just GNP per capita or various quality of life surveys by the likes of The Economist, it doesn't include lots of stuff, particularly inequality, which is increasing in Ireland.

MontgomeryClift

Andrew 83 wrote:

While that is good news to an extent wait until the UN Human Poverty Index for the year is released (can't find it on the website yet). The UN considers this a better indicator than the Human Development Index. Last year despite a similarly high placing in the Development Index, we were second bottom after the US in the poverty index placings for selected OECD countries. A high placing in the Development Index is good but no excuse for complacency in tackling poverty!!

Here you go:

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/9267778?view=Eircomnet

DadaKopf

Andrew 83 wrote:

While that is good news to an extent wait until the UN Human Poverty Index for the year is released (can't find it on the website yet). The UN considers this a better indicator than the Human Development Index. Last year despite a similarly high placing in the Development Index, we were second bottom after the US in the poverty index placings for selected OECD countries. A high placing in the Development Index is good but no excuse for complacency in tackling poverty!!

The HPI is published with the HDI. It's in the statistics at the back.

cooker3

Dyflin wrote:

The latest list from the UNDP (United Nations Development Program)

UNDP Top 20
1 Norway
2 Iceland
3 Australia
4 Ireland
5 Sweden
6 Canada
7 Japan
8 United States
9 Switzerland
10 Netherlands
11 Finland
12 Luxembourg
13 Belgium
14 Austria
15 Denmark
16 France
17 Italy
18 United Kingdom
19 Spain
20 New Zealand

The list is based on statistics on life expectancy, education levels and gross national product per inhabitant.

I never knew we had it so good???

It's funny after going through our educational system, I really aren't impressed with it and often wonder why it is so lauded accross world but then again never been in any other education system so nothing to compare it to but for others who have been to differant countries, is it really that good?

DadaKopf

"I really aren't impressed"?

The HDI measured 'gross primary, secondary and tertiary enrolment ratio' - the percentage of those who went to school and college (IT or Uni) versus those who don't. That's a measure of attainment of education, not quality.

Which is a shortcoming of the Index, but a political minefield and very hard to meaningfully measure across countries. The HDI doesn't even measure income equality/inequality - arguably more important due to its knock-on effects on education and health.

silverharp

anything that puts us ahead of countries like switzerland has to be suspect. the average Swiss or Austrian would shudder at the thought of having to switch to an irish quality of life

meepins

silverharp wrote:

anything that puts us ahead of countries like switzerland has to be suspect. the average Swiss or Austrian would shudder at the thought of having to switch to an irish quality of life

Maybe Penn and Teller will debunk the study in next seasons Bu**s**t!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

possible, they do seem to be running out of ideas fairly quickly

Andrew 83

DadaKopf wrote:

The HPI is published with the HDI. It's in the statistics at the back.

Thought it should be but couldn't find it when I scanned. I see there from the link posted that we're still second bottom. That says to me that (although the figures are nearly two years old) not enough is still being done. The Minister's comments and decision to dismiss the statistic (which as I say the UN places more improtance on) isn't a good sign.

DadaKopf

No, it's a Minister doing damage limitation before a general election. The government's always been great at massaging/inventing/dissolving figures when they get in the way.

Brennan does have a point: that making policy on the basis of rusty data isn't very smart. But governments do this all the time because they're the best indications we have of how things are, not the be-all and end-all of everything. As the one from the CPA says, the HDR is a global overview, not an in-depth country-by-country study. That's its purpose - to make meaningful comparisons on states of development between countries. Of course it's not perfect, nothing is.

Having said all this, I think the opposition should go to town on the Government for the HPI ranking. It's a disgrace. It's this "oh, I'm just little old Ireland, I can't be expected to keep up with *everything*, do you know how old I am?" routine that's really grinding my gears.

bonkey

silverharp wrote:

anything that puts us ahead of countries like switzerland has to be suspect. the average Swiss or Austrian would shudder at the thought of having to switch to an irish quality of life

The report isn't about how happy you are with the quality you have. Its about objectively comparing certain factors of quality. There's a significant difference.

You could be happy being given a miserable education, and living on a farm in the middle of nowhere with no health services worth talking about, nor any of the rest of it. You'd hate to be told to move to a city where you have top-quality everything. But the city would beat the middle-of-nowhere farm on that scale every time because it has the resources being measured.

As a real parallel....compare the education/employment systems. Here in Switzerland, you pretty much need a qualification for everything. And thats a relevant qualification. Only a tiny percentage go on to Uni. Most do apprenticeships. I know someone who recently finished their apprenticeship for driving trains...only to be told there was no need for train-drivers. A whole 3 years wasted. And to get a non-menial job in any other field? Another 2-3 years of apprenticing. If you work on the checkout in the supermarket, the only way you'll ever move up is....you've guessed it....do an apprenticeship.

Which is better? A country with the majority doing third-level education, or a country with the majority doing apprenticeships that are effectively one-shot qualifications? I'd take the Irish system any day, personally.

I believe we (the Irish) also beat out the Swiss on GNP and on life expectancy (which is surprising, but there you go). So by this chart, we score higher.

Which is a better place to live? I dunno.

If I want a mortgage, over here I can get 80% max. off the bank. So to buy a decent place, I need to save up 100K for a deposit. If I want to see the ocean, I have to drive over 500 miles. My weekly shopping is more expensive than in Ireland (no, really, even with all the Irish complaints about rip-off-ism). My health insurance is also higher (from memory) at over 150 EUR per month. Unemployment is more of a problem, and getting worse. Salaries are falling as Switzerland struggles to open its markets to the EU. I get to pay through the nose for my dental care. and other stuff too.

On the plus side, I get mountains. I get 4 real seasons. I get a transport system that works. I get health-care that isn't just a euphemism. Wine is cheaper. And other stuff too.

Bottom line....I've lived here for over 5 years, and I like it. But is it better or worse than Ireland...thats not an easy question because better and worse in an overall picture like this are subjective - they're dependant on where you put your priorities.

silverharp

Bonkey worte - The report isn't about how happy you are with the quality you have. Its about objectively comparing certain factors of quality. There's a significant difference.


I wasn’t looking at it in terms of a “happiness index” which I agree can not be fully correlated with services on offer or wealth etc. However compared to best practice in Europe, we have a poor health service, poor child access to special services, terrible spatial planning and poor public transport. I’m sure a compensating factor is the low unemployment here but again I am suspect of any index that puts us near the top, it implies to me that it is measuring or over weighting the wrong things.

DadaKopf

The HDI measures what it measures. These measures - per capita income, educational attainment and literacy, and life expectancy from birth - are stand-in measures for 'quality of life' indicators that are much harder to measure. It's an attempt to get as concrete information you can about quality of life (though, as I've said, it leaves out income inequality).

If you're interested in how the HDI is calculated, click here to read about how it's calculated and what it means.

bonkey

silverharp wrote:

However compared to best practice in Europe, we have a poor health service, poor child access to special services, terrible spatial planning and poor public transport.

Right. But are they the best indicators?

Switzerland has invested in its public transport system for a long, long time. Ditto its road infrastructure and its healthcare. Its done so because it could afford to do so. We couldn't.

Today, SBB (Swiss rail) are struggling to meet demand, and to keep prices down. There's growing discontent that public transport is becoming more and more expensive to use, while on the business side there's growing discontent that its more and more expensive to run.

Ditto the health service. Premiums are going up (despite already being high) and services are dropping in many respects.

And so on.

Ultimately, whats happening in Switzerland is that these great-to-have things are increasingly being seen as unaffordable, and they need to be scaled back. On the other hand, in Ireland, things are getting better. Maybe not efficiently, I grant you, but hell, Switzerland is the model of inefficiency at times yet remains the darling of so many when it comes to doing stuff right.

What I'm driving at is that the level of quality in the factors you mention are almost all indicators of past performance, not of current situation. Everything you've listed is dependant on long-term factors, because no matter how rich you are, it takes time to build these things. So as a "nouveau riche" nation, we cannot possibly be better off than the built-it-but-now-going-broke types by your scale.

If they're your benchmark, then they're your benchmark, but it will lead you to conclude that the country rapidly sliding downhill is better off than the country rapidly climbing uphill, as long as the downhill-directed one is still higher up the slope.

I am suspect of any index that puts us near the top, it implies to me that it is measuring or over weighting the wrong things.

Because Ireland is further downhill.....

IF someone asked you, however, if you'd like a big house, a big car, and no job....or a small house, a small car, and a good job which will let you move upwards over time....which would you go for? By the logic you've presented here, the big house big car option is the better one in your eyes.

silverharp

Bonkey-I agree that European’s ability to pay for existing services will decrease due to globalisation and poor demographics, and yes services in Ireland probably will improve over the next decade all things being equal (however the urban sprawl in being set in stone) and having German inlaws I know that everything isn’t all roses over there, the rigidity in the labour market is a huge stumbling block to family formation. However at this point in time, we should be rising up the index, not sitting near the top.
BTW, I would prefer the Swiss mortgage system to the Banksters here who are flogging 40-50 year 100% mortgages, some people are making decisions now that they will have to live with for a long time.

bonkey

silverharp wrote:

However at this point in time, we should be rising up the index, not sitting near the top

I would argue that is because you're creating an index which is measuring something else and saying that because we wouldn't be at the top of that one, its wrong that we should be at the top of any one.

Look - no index is perfect. They measure what they measure. It is the likes of the media who transform a specific measurement into some stupidly vague term like "best country in the world".

This is not the index of the best countries in the world. Such an index doesn't exist. If it did, then I'd agree with your opinion of where we should be placed, year-on-year but I'd guess I'd still have Ireland higher up than you would.

BTW, I would prefer the Swiss mortgage system to the Banksters here who are flogging 40-50 year 100% mortgages, some people are making decisions now that they will have to live with for a long time.

You generally never finish paying off a Swiss mortgage. How can you argue that a system which requires an impractical up-front payment and effectively runs forever is better, given that your complaint about the Irish system seems to be the duration.

Do you think its good that I need to save for 5-10 years to be able to afford my downpayment at today's rates? Or that I'll probably never finish paying back my mortgage when I get it? Or that I'll get taxed by the government for the "virtual rent" that my house earns (i.e. even if I'm living there and not renting it, I get taxed as though I was renting it)? Exactly what is better about having a mortgage where you're financially better off not repaying it all?

Oh - should I mention that there is one way of getting around the downpayment....and thats to pledge or hand over an equivalent amount of my pension savings. So I can buy a house if I agree to have less pension...and then I'll still have to pay tax on the "income" that I earn by not having to pay rent when I'm retired!!!

I'll agree in a heartbeat that the laws regarding renting property in Switzerland are light-years better than in Ireland, but if you think the mortgage situation here is better, you're kidding yourself.

silverharp

Bonkey, I’m not claiming to be an expert on what a development index should look like but I’ve yet to hear on RTE a report/study that doesn’t claim that we are always close to the bottom on health issues, doctors per head of pop, hospital beds and other services, or that we are near the top on things like binge drinking, under age mothers, obesity etc maybe bad news sells and I’m missing the underline positives that are happening.

Re the mortgages, as such renting/owning is a value judgement and should not be part of a development index however I guess if gov. rules make it awkward then there could be labour mobility issues, I could retort however and say that I am a prisoner in my own home as I could not afford to trade up in the part of Dublin I live in due to having to pay 9% stamp duty for the privilege of moving house, as such I could not afford to buy my house again at current prices by a large factor, in fact the stamp duty would soak up about half my borrowing power, very tempting to move to Germany. Every country gets home owners one way or the other as they can’t skip off en masse. It’s my view that excessive borrowing will always come back to bite an economy and the individuals involved, so if buying a house in Swiz. is difficult, that’s does not have to be a bad thing and I would be interested to know if the Swiss are generally fustrated about their housing market, in the US it has been said that if you have a pulse you’ll get a mortgage, in the long run that just creates economic instability, me thinks Irish lending practices are tending more to the US model.

DadaKopf

Hey, you know, the other side of this Human Development Report story is that global inequality has increased, global poverty has deepened, West Africa is still the most desperate region in the world, and 1.2 billion are without access to clean water and sanitation, and most of the world's poorest who can access it have to spend at least 50% of their incomes on it. How F*ck*ed is that?

silverharp

DadaKopf wrote:

Hey, you know, the other side of this Human Development Report story is that global inequality has increased, global poverty has deepened, West Africa is still the most desperate region in the world, and 1.2 million people die a year from lack of access to clean water and sanitation, and most of the world's poorest who can access it have to spend at least 50% of their incomes on it. How F*ck*ed is that?

If the US and Europe stopped protecting their agriculture, Africa would have a fighting chance

DadaKopf

It's not just Africa dude, it's the 3 billion poor people around the whole world. And the solution is not that simple.

All I'm saying is: get things in perspective.