Acting lessons for RBSD...

john kavanagh

if i was interested in training for SD situations i think i'd spend quite a bit of my available training time on acting lessons and debating skills. i remember watching an Eddie Murphy stand up routine and he was saying he cant fight but he can act like he can fight and thats get him out of most situations.

i think debating skills would be very handy too, so you'd learn how to talk to someone while under pressure. in fact for SD training i think this non-physical side would be much more important that anything physical you can learn so therefore you'd spend an equivalent amount of time per week (or more) on this type of training. do rbsd guys do this?

dlofnep

eddie murphy, raw.

one of my all time favourites

murphy, gervais.. fan of comedy john?

and not to go compeltely off-topic here, i agree with your point.

Dyr

I thought Raw was hilarious as a kid but i saw it a few weeks back and thought it was dire, thats what growing up does to you

Anywhoo, In the past I've had good results with talking people down, i've shook hands and walked away on friendly terms with people who wanted to lamp me..i think if you keep people talking long enough then they cant maintain the aggresion or pre-fight wotsits Geoff thompson et al always mention so the opportunity to throw digs passes and both parties wind up just standing there looking a bit sheepish

dlofnep

I agree Bambi. I remember a guy bought me a beer, when a few minutes beforehand he was trying to throw a road sign at me. Nothing like a good chat to settle differences.

Baggio...

Same here... Talking down has worked for me a number of times - don't really want to fight anyone.

Don't think there is any need for specialist training . Plus, you wont really have the time during a potential altercation - your dialog at that stage can't be that complicated, or take too much time (you will be dead meat if it does). There is always going to be some practice dialog from striking off a fence, etc. Or during some scenario training - but I don't think you need more practice than that.

Interesting... I've heard that premise mentioned before from a few RBSD instructors, would not be interested myself tbh. Most people have some kind of acting skills anyway. I'd rather spend the time punching the the bag - much more productive in my view. But that's just me...

Cheers,

B.

gymrabbit

I'd much prefer to smash the guy in the head a few times as opposed to "talk him down".

Millionaire

john kavanagh wrote:

if i was interested in training for SD situations i think i'd spend quite a bit of my available training time on acting lessons and debating skills. i remember watching an Eddie Murphy stand up routine and he was saying he cant fight but he can act like he can fight and thats get him out of most situations.

i think debating skills would be very handy too, so you'd learn how to talk to someone while under pressure. in fact for SD training i think this non-physical side would be much more important that anything physical you can learn so therefore you'd spend an equivalent amount of time per week (or more) on this type of training. do rbsd guys do this?

No, I say the IMO the soft skills are about 10% of it, 90% is physical.

Yes, acting skills would help for sure! Remember the character a few years back in Fair City...local thug crim Billy...and we was a wee tiny guy...just throw in a bit of that, or get the grim unimpressed I 've seen it all in life bouncer look!

Pressure training, using verbals, works better. there is plenty of instuctors and DVDs out there to teach you this, and associated training. Bulletman, Red Man...etc....its all another bit of the jig saw.

I just got Geoff Thompsons 3 DVDs series real punching yesterday in the post and was scanning through last night. very interesting stuff for a RBSD, by this DVD, you will learn alot. This is RBSD by boxing skills. and yes there is soft skills involved.

Debating is a no no....with debated your only getting into the "verbal ring" which may escalate. you want to diffuse, NLP training teaches you better comunication skills for that.

NLP is a serious tool of influence when used correctly, I am certified on the basic level, and will get more certification in 2007-2008, right now I use the basic alot.

HammerHeadGym

Hey John,
Good post. Yeah, i've done a lot of this stuff. The training is a bit wierd, with one guy trying to talk at the other guy who is bawling his head off.

Don't know about the acting part of it, i think the time would be better spent learning actual fighting. But definitely spending many hours on NLP and body language training has kept my ass out of the line of fire in many situations on the door. Off the the door i just keep on moving.

Actually, could you define acting? i may have more to add.

Thanks John

Dan133269

Interesting point, I'm sure a lot of you know of Derren Brown, mind control expert who has his series on channel 4 such as "trick of the mind", played russian roullette live, the heist etc. Well I was reading some stuff he wrote and he said whenever he found himself in a position where some thug is starting on him on the street he talks his way out of it, and not in the usual way.

He says that when the brain is shocked and surprised at someone's conduct/speech/behaviour, the natural tendency is of course to back away and get out of the situation. Applying this then he said he was confronted by a man who said something along the line's of "what are you looking at? I'm gonna smash your face in".

Derren replied with "the hedge in front of my house is a bit shabby and could do with a trim".
The aggressor said "what?" and Derren followed up with "I can only fit 6 fish fingers on the pan at a time".

He delivered these in a confident, assertive tone obviously, and he said the guy was so shocked and bewildered he got away from him as quick as he could.
I'm not sure if everyone could make this approach work but it's interesting nevertheless.

Millionaire

Dan133269 wrote:

He says that when the brain is shocked and surprised at someone's conduct/speech/behaviour, the natural tendency is of course to back away and get out of the situation. Applying this then he said he was confronted by a man who said something along the line's of "what are you looking at? I'm gonna smash your face in".

Derren replied with "the hedge in front of my house is a bit shabby and could do with a trim".
The aggressor said "what?" and Derren followed up with "I can only fit 6 fish fingers on the pan at a time".

He delivered these in a confident, assertive tone obviously, and he said the guy was so shocked and bewildered he got away from him as quick as he could.
I'm not sure if everyone could make this approach work but it's interesting nevertheless.

Thats called a pattern break or a pattern interrupt in NLP. it totally breaks your train of thought. there is tone of stuff on the web about it.

Tony Robbins Personal Power Series, talks alot about it, by clicking the link on my signature you can hear and see more about him, get a feel by what he is about, I am not telling you to buy my book, some of the info by tony is one the site.

see darren brown could have followed up the pattern interrput with an embedded command.

Roper

Millionaire wrote:

Tony Robbins Personal Power Series, talks alot about it, by clicking the link on my signature you can hear and see more about him, get a feel by what he is about, I am not telling you to buy my book, some of the info by tony is one the site.

see darren brown could have followed up the pattern interrput with an embedded command.

LOL, Millionaire, you put the "b" in subtle:D .

I wonder how many takers there'd be on an RBSD Drama class? I know a new agey drama teacher who'd have you pretending to be a squirrell for an hour... wear your combat pants.

mark.leonard

The debate/pre-fight stage of an aggressive encounter is where most of them could finish if the "victim" had the experience or smarts to use the time efficiently. Geoff Thompson talks about this a lot in his books trying to make something that is unfortunately very hard to reproduce reproducible. I don't think he succeeds and a lot of the drills that he recommends are more likley to give people fake confidence than real, but he tried at least!

Baggio...

As Millionaire said -- debating won't work. You'll probably just agitate the guy further. It's also very hard to have a proper conversation with someone on alcohol/drugs/adrenalized, etc.- they don't listen to reason, also you don't have much time. (tried it many times on the door - does not work).

There are some principles you can employ when talking someone down.

For example don't say: "Calm down mate....". As he's likely to respond with "I am fooking calm!!". "Relax man.." "Don't you tell me to fookin' relax!".

The list goes on but that give you a brief intro' to the concept.

IMO any good RBSD group will already incorporate everything you need in their gym. You should always be practicing "aggression therapy" and de-escalation drills. So seeking further education should not be a needed (unless you want to do it out of interest).

That's just my 2 cents.

Damo W

john kavanagh wrote:

if i was interested in training for SD situations i think i'd spend quite a bit of my available training time on acting lessons and debating skills. i remember watching an Eddie Murphy stand up routine and he was saying he cant fight but he can act like he can fight and thats get him out of most situations.

i think debating skills would be very handy too, so you'd learn how to talk to someone while under pressure. in fact for SD training i think this non-physical side would be much more important that anything physical you can learn so therefore you'd spend an equivalent amount of time per week (or more) on this type of training. do rbsd guys do this

Hi John,

Check out http://www.tonyblauer.com/, have seen a number of his video's one showing possible examples of unusual verbal/physical actions, something along the lines of what Dan133269 said,

Dan133269 wrote:

the brain is shocked and surprised at someone's conduct/speech/behaviour

Cheers

Baggio...

Richard Dimitri has done some really good con conceptual work on de-escalation. He refers to it as a "pattern interrupt" (as mill has previously mentioned).

Personally, I don't think anyone should get too bogged down when talking to a potential aggressor. If you start thinking about what stuff to say, how/when to say it, etc. It may cause your own brain to become "engaged" and therefore provide the aggressor with the opportunity to strike first. That's why I think using triggers is so important - it just takes much of your thought process out of the equation.

Millionaire

or we could do another NLP trick....Engage attackers with a stupid question...
" Did you ever go ice skating in july?" for about 1 sec attacker is thinking "what the fook is he on about" and BANG, you hit him a pre emptive strike on the Jaw for the KO.

Thats classic Geoff Thompson!

I d disagree with Mark, and say Geoff gets the point across pretty good.

In the 2nd DVD of his real punching series, he is talking about his own personal training, saying he is doing alot of grappling, as its and area he needs to improve himself, yet he still says, if you train (as he recommends) most fights can be ended in the punching range.

Of course if you meet Mr Iron Jaw, who does not go down, or miss your punch then your into a "fight" where clinch, dirty shos, grappling come into play etc...

arybvtcw0eolkf

john kavanagh wrote:

i think debating skills would be very handy too, so you'd learn how to talk to someone while under pressure. in fact for SD training i think this non-physical side would be much more important that anything physical you can learn so therefore you'd spend an equivalent amount of time per week (or more) on this type of training. do rbsd guys do this?

It was Winston Churchill who said;

"Its better to Jaw, jaw, than War, War"...

So yes, its better to talk.

Like alot of people here I can only compare real life violence to my work in bars/clubs and I'd rather talk for five minutes than fight for one. Although there comes a point when the talking has to stop and you've to assert yourself on the situation. I think SD training should include this.

Magic Eight Ball

I remember reading an article about street attacks and mugging.
It talked a lot about aggressive speech and how it could prevent some attacks from happening.
Think the term the author used was ‘SHOUT-JUTSU’ or something along those lines.

I really believe these knackers who go around attacking people are so used to doing it, they can almost smell fear from a person.
It’s a primal thing with these boys.

I think knowing how to carry yourself becomes the first line of defense against attacks.
It’s like what many animals do; you purposely make yourself appear more intimidating when face with an attacker, hoping they decide it isn’t worth it.

Knowing how to handle your body language and speech when faced with a possible attack is important.
Knowing how to handle yourself once the attack happens is a matter of life and death.

Millionaire

I read an interview once, someone did with convicted muggers, and people who started fights and battered people for "kicks".

They all said, and this is me putting a whole article in my words in one line...that they ALWAYS picked or targeted people they felt was an easy target or someone they could beat up.

The reference for this is actually Geoff Thompson (again!!! LOL!!! ) who interviewed scum who did jail for the above violent crimes, and he included the findings of his interviews and reserach in one of his earlier books, which I bought years back.

Now of course you get usual exception to this rule....I had a friend (drinking buddy) a few years back, he is very successful and worked his way up from being plastering walls to owning quite a large construction company, and is very wealthy/ he works really hard during the week, and without the drink in is a real sound guy. on the weekends he would go out, drink loads of pints and about 10 vodka and redbulls, and pick a fight with big lads, gangs of lads, anything. of course since I was a drinking buddy back then, I usually got dragged into these mill ups too, and he got me into more fights, that he started, he was also a boxer as a teen and an Ulster champion as a junior(i think). so he could handle himself. You can take it, I stopped going out with him quite a few years back, due to the mayhem he caused.

The way he would engage someone , he would go up to some big lad and say something like cool as anything " You were looking at me there, I think ya were", the victim would be like "what you talking about"..then he would say" you wouldn'tbe the sort of kunt thats calling me a kunt, there would ya be"? (imagine a dense monaghan accent mixed with Begby of Trainspotting type) , Push, Shove, Bang, Wallop, Fights on!!!!! Full Scale Mass Riot, bottles, tables, chairs flying. just a terrible spolier to a night out. his GF would be crying and giving him hell all the way home, all the usual mess this sort of stuff causes.

he had a great knack of picking on people with about 5 or 6 mates too, who would of course jump in, and usually on top of me too! I would be in the middle trying to stop the whole thing, and trying to talk him down, but it never worked. so I d get walloped too!

This guy was that nuts with drink, not to be political, but he went to Portadown once into a protestant bar when he was full of drink (he was catholic) just too start trouble, him and his brother got some kicking that night. he never learned sense after it either. they were lucky to get out alive.

Strange People!

After a week in Tennerief with him, and more mayhem .... I decided thats it! no more nights out with him!

I often wonder how someone canbe so successful during the week, and such an F**K Up on the weekends. would make for an intersting psychlogical study.

Dan133269

sounds like an idiot to be honest Millionnaire, changing from one person into another is not unheard of with alcohol, but it isn't that hard to not go insane with the drink on a night out

yomchi

What happened to just warning the person you held a black belt in kratty?

Always worked for me:p

Millionaire

Dan133269 wrote:

sounds like an idiot to be honest Millionnaire, t

Thats was the general opinion of many other people who actually knew the guy in the locality we grew up in originally!

i have n't seem him in years, he must be 37 now...I wonder has he matured any!

Baggio...

Jon wrote:

What happened to just warning the person you held a black belt in kratty?

Might give that a I try next time.;)

Odysseus

Just my own thoughts, in a work situation I often have to talk down aggressive clients, here I find that I can be very good at it. Being on lots of training day around this, and they were all crap, never once thought, yeah that might be useful. Within this situation, I have to keep in mind I'm on CCTV, it may be in a waiting room with lots of back up for the client, and little support for me, despite what the HSE says there is little support for me if things get rough, and there are in all likelyhood lots of weapons being carried by clients in the waiting room. For me my skills have developed over the years through trial and error. However, there are times when you have to verbally take things once step further, and rather than talk the person down, you have to let them know very clearly than you are in control and what you say is the way it is going to happen. Whereas outside work I have always found the latter works better.

Millionaire

Odysseus wrote:

Whereas outside work I have always found the latter works better.

Pee Pee off seamus...someone tried to mug you one day when you were out jogging, and just as the thug said "gimme your money" you decked him with a lee morrison open hand slap, and kept on joggin without breaking a step! LOL!!!!!

HA HA you were just right! If that was me, I would have accidently jogged on this head on the way by just to make sure he learned his lesson!

Odysseus

Millionaire wrote:

Pee Pee off seamus...someone tried to mug you one day when you were out jogging, and just as the thug said "gimme your money" you decked him with a lee morrison open hand slap, and kept on joggin without breaking a step! LOL!!!!!

HA HA you were just right! If that was me, I would have accidently jogged on this head on the way by just to make sure he learned his lesson!

Christ Gerry, you must have a memory like an elephant. That was over three years ago, and to be fair I d id offer therapy for the Post Traumatic Stress;) Yeah, those slaps can be quite effective.

However, on a more serious note, in that situation there was no room for language, I was about to be attacked and that was that. No amount of de-escalation was going to help there. However, on a more positive note that was the only incident I ever had whilst running when I lived in Dublin, this happened closed to my home, but I use to spent a lot of time running around the Phoniex Park in the dark during the winter, and no one ever said boo to me.

Millionaire

Odysseus wrote:

but I use to spent a lot of time running around the Phoniex Park in the dark during the winter, and no one ever said boo to me.

They probably though you were a Rent Boy! :eek:

If I wanted Rent Boy you would be be the bottom of my list! LOL!!!!

Or maybe the FG TD Emmet Stagg was chasing after you in his car, so you kept up a good fast pace! ha ha....

God I am a fountain of humor!