Your thoughts on Airsoft Legislation

N.O.I.P.

Ok first of all calm down as far as i know there are no plans to legislate Airsoft, in fact thats why i decided to start this thread.

I was inspired after reading shanethemofos post and the replies to it to start a new thread to sound out peoples thoughts on viable legislation to ensure that airsoft not only thrives in Ireland but does so in a safe and responsible manner.

Lets face it Airsoft in Ireland is in a pretty precarious situation right now we have one rule ( 1Joule ) and that can be easily violated. The last thing that anybody here wants is to open the paper some morning to see a story of how little johnny from down the road lost an eye after he was shot by somebody with an upgrded AEG, after recent events in Limerick the public uproar would be tremendous and Airsoft would once again become illegal.
(I realise that the Limerick incident involved a real gun but people will draw comparisons)

So basically I was curious about hearing your opinions on how we could ensure that Airsoft is given the chance to become a recognised sport in Ireland and that people know there is a world of difference between a serious airsofter and an idiot with an airsoft gun.

I would be pretty interested to hear the opinions of the Paintball crowd as I don't know what kind of legislation that sport has if any

Dave!

Off the top of my head....

* age limit: >16 years old
* must have some sort of licence to be allowed to sell them
* use on public land without permission: punishment
* perhaps being a member of a club should be prerequisite to buying a gun. not sure about this though, cos it's still perfectly legitimate and fun to shoot targets at home!

o1s1n

i think some sort of Irish airsoft organization needs to be set up soon. with membership etc. then contact should be made with the government, addressing such issues and asking if some sort of legislation could be written up in a way which keeps "pellet gun" related crime down without hindering the sport. I'd love to try and start up something like this myself. i havent a clue where to begin though

N.O.I.P.

o1s1n wrote:

i think some sort of Irish airsoft organization needs to be set up soon. with membership etc.

I was thinking along those lines myself but I'm kind of 50/50 on the idea. I can't imagine an organisation that purports to represent irish airsofters having any kind of credibility if there hasn't been any skirmishes in the Republic yet. In saying that I think a proper organisation dedicated to representing and furthering the interests of airsofters over here could prove to be very benificial in the future.

I think the best thing we could do at the moment would be to try and organise at least one skirmish to see what any of us who have never tried it before actually think (you know now that we have gone and spent all that money on rifles ) and after that an Irish Airsoft Organisation might be a good idea.

DaveMcG wrote:

Off the top of my head....

* age limit: >16 years old
* must have some sort of licence to be allowed to sell them
* use on public land without permission: punishment
* perhaps being a member of a club should be prerequisite to buying a gun. not sure about this though, cos it's still perfectly legitimate and fun to shoot targets at home!

Thats the kinda thing I was hoping people would say. Anybody else have any thoughts or opinions on this?

o1s1n

yes, but to get the government to consider things like;

"age limit: >16 years old
* must have some sort of licence to be allowed to sell them
* use on public land without permission: punishment
* perhaps being a member of a club should be prerequisite to buying a gun. not sure about this though, cos it's still perfectly legitimate and fun to shoot targets at home!"

you'd have to approach them with the idea as a body of people interested in the sport. hence, airsoft organization.

i do agree though, starting up an organization before even skirmishing is a little ridiculous. i mean, who knows, we might hate it

N.O.I.P.

o1s1n wrote:

i do agree though, starting up an organization before even skirmishing is a little ridiculous. i mean, who knows, we might hate it

Not a chance buddy I could never get tired of shooting you

Dave!

N.O.I.P. wrote:

Not a chance buddy I could never get tired of shooting you

Smack talkin' already! lol

Can't wait for the boards.ie skirmishes

[--SC(+)PE--]

Can't wait for the boards.ie skirmishes

i second that

Were all just slowly and quitely equiping ourselves for the inevitable slaughter

N.O.I.P.

Slaughter :eek: well so much for the friendly skirmish, Scopes gone all Kurtz on us, but then again with that amount of guns it was bound to happen sooner or later

[--SC(+)PE--]

hee hee
im thinking of selling my air rifle [never get 2 use the thing] 2 fund a scoped Aeg of some sort ,either a m14 clone or a g3 sg1 or some such.so the collection aint finnished yet

o1s1n

actually yeah man, i never did get you back for that shot in the leg.
fukin' armalites!

you have an air rifle, scope? cool! i always wanted to try my hand at proper shooting.

how much is it worth? could you not get a TM m14 with the money you get for it?

[--SC(+)PE--]

Odd how you can read my mind from the other end of the country very odd .
I dont think id get enough for a tm m14 tbh though i would want to get enough to get a fully tricked out m14 clone [assuming its as good accurate as ive been praying for]
I realy have no idea what i could get for my air rifle as im not even sure how much it cost me in the first place[very complicated sale with my dads best friend]

its a Rws diana 34 with an expensive webley 4*40 scope and rings. If any1 would like to enlighten me to its worth O ya its 177calibre going about 1000fps almost breaking the speed of sound

o1s1n

.....

i'll trade you a mac 11

lol

Dave!

lol

[--SC(+)PE--]

Should ave seen that comming :rolleyes:
bah no its an m14 i need

o1s1n

dont make me post this again!

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a399/o1s1n/m11-1.jpg

just look at her subtle curves...

[--SC(+)PE--]

i will get 1 eventually

now that i finished drooling i tought id post up this random "for sale" thread i happend to stumble across
http://www.airsoftireland.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4774

Hmm im glad im not obsessed with g3's this mightave been to tempting for me lol

o1s1n

touché :P

Sparks

I probably ought to point out that the relevant DoJ people are probably already reading these boards...

N.O.I.P.

Hi sparks sorry I'm not sure if that was suppossed to be a negative comment (this one is definitely not ) I just wanted to say that I think it would be great if somebody from the DOJ was reading these posts, the very fact that we are the ones suggesting that there be some kind of legislation regarding airsoft should only serve to prove that we are serious about wanting to see Airsoft take off over here, and for it to be run safely and properly. I would also be pretty interested to hear their comments and ideas about legislation.
Thanks N.O.I.P.

MaxForce

DaveMcG wrote:

Off the top of my head....

* age limit: >16 years old
* must have some sort of licence to be allowed to sell them
* use on public land without permission: punishment
* perhaps being a member of a club should be prerequisite to buying a gun. not sure about this though, cos it's still perfectly legitimate and fun to shoot targets at home!

Great. But how about accrediting to an already esatablished national body. If there was a national club which was accredited to a shooting organisation, you would be taken more seriously. The DOJ should have given a bit more thought to the 1J rule and not just declassify airsoft accross the board. I dont think anybody who is serious about airsoft would have any problem with joining a club which would in turn allow you to purchase an airsoft. Iam not saying owning an airsoft should be treated the same as a real gun but there should be some kind of legislation there. I did come accross a page at one stage that had the legislation from all over the world about airsoft in each country and it made interesting reading but I cant find it now. It was a link from one of the retailers. If I can find it I will post it.

EDIT: Knew I seen it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_in_airsoft

[--SC(+)PE--]

To quote Rambo over on the phillipines board "its airsoft heaven overhere"
600 and 700fps sniper rifles Yesh please

MaxForce

[--SC(+)PE--] wrote:

To quote Rambo over on the phillipines board "its airsoft heaven overhere"
600 and 700fps sniper rifles Yesh please

SH1T thats like 3 or 4j is it not!!!:eek:

o1s1n

ah no its not
if 1 joule with a .20g bb is 328fps, then double that, 656fps is 2joules!


*totally untrue, i am a moron*

MaxForce

o1s1n wrote:

ah no its not
if 1 joule with a .20g bb is 328fps, then double that, 656fps is 2joules!

Thanks. 3j would definitely hurt.

o1s1n

i'm not sure where proper penetration starts. i know in the UK they use 1.28 joules as a penetration rule, as it goes through a pigs eye at that point (god knows how they found that out) but im not sure about flesh

Dave!

o1s1n wrote:

i'm not sure where proper penetration starts. i know in the UK they use 1.28 joules as a penetration rule, as it goes through a pigs eye at that point (god knows how they found that out) but im not sure about flesh

The poor pig

Sparks

o1s1n wrote:

ah no its not
if 1 joule with a .20g bb is 328fps, then double that, 656fps is 2joules!

Er, no.



Therefore, double the velocity, and you quadruple the kinetic energy. So if a .20g BB@328fps = 1J, a .20g BB@656fps = 4J.

o1s1n

well that explains me not taking maths in college then

[--SC(+)PE--]

crap tought i posted that earlier [gay comp] ya what sparks said basically. theirs a calculater over on arniesairsoft.co.uk im 2 lazy 2 figure out the formula but anyway.

Dave!

What are you lads' thoughts on the blaze tip as a legal requirement?

I was thinking that it doesn't really make a difference. Presumably it's so that the gun cannot be used to rob a bank or something, but if someone's gonna do that then they'll no doubt simply spray-paint over it. Airsofters do that all the time with no malicious intent -- purely because it looks better. So you can bet a robber will do the same.

As far as I know (my legal education from the movie The General tells me ), once the victim fears for their life, or once they think it's an actual gun, then you get charged just like if it is a real gun.

Nothing wrong with that. So if someone uses an airsoft gun they'll get banged up good and proper!

I doubt there's potential armed robbers thinking "if only I had a gun I could rob that bank...". I heard a possibly apocryphal story of a bloke wrapping up 2 metal pipes in a sheet and pretending it was a double barrel shottie. Doubt it's true, but there are lots of things that could be used in place of a gun.

How many instances has there been this year, of a robber spray-painting a kids' cap-gun, and robbing a bank? If someone's in the mind-set to rob a bank, then the odds are they have access to a gun and will bring it in case someone tries to be a hero.

The only real reason I can think of it working is if there's kids shooting each other in the street. It might save the ERU a journey. But they'd be illegal to play with in public areas, so they shouldn't be there anyway. Bang them in jail! Well maybe not , but they'd be in trouble.

whupass

you're right even bannana will get you in jail IF they think it's a gun, so stick it to the back of someones head and they'll think it's a gun

o1s1n

there have been cases in America of criminals painting the tops of REAL GUNS blaze orange.

it basically just doesnt work. i'll cry if they bring it in over here. it makes the guns look horrendous.

Harekin

whupass wrote:

you're right even bannana will get you in jail IF they think it's a gun, so stick it to the back of someones head and they'll think it's a gun

No no, it only counts as a robbery if the person fears for their life. If I go up to Smiths and buy a toy gun and then point it at someone I wont get thrown in the slammer for it, that ridiculous. Its if you rob a place and they fear for their life then it counts as a robbery, otherwise the f**k-tard is just giving you the money from the till.

whupass

ohyea sorry i made that unclear, i meant if you robbed them, didn't mean it as if you just pointed it at some randomer

Fiach Dubh

I think a licence would be a bit too much but maybe having to bring your weapons down to your local cop shop and have them registered would be ok, I know this sounds like licencing but I mean much less formal. If a licence was brought in for Airsoft I'd want to see the 1 joule limit removed.

Another thing to do would be if and when retailers start selling weapons in Ireland the retailer has you fill in a purchase form in the shop, name, age, address, etc. This form could be sent to the Guards and would go on record. I believe martial arts shops that sell edged weapons have been doing this for 4 or 5 years now.

Harekin

Fiach Dubh wrote:

I think a licence would be a bit too much but maybe having to bring your weapons down to your local cop shop and have them registered would be ok, I know this sounds like licencing but I mean much less formal. If a licence was brought in for Airsoft I'd want to see the 1 joule limit removed.

Another thing to do would be if and when retailers start selling weapons in Ireland the retailer has you fill in a purchase form in the shop, name, age, address, etc. This form could be sent to the Guards and would go on record. I believe martial arts shops that sell edged weapons have been doing this for 4 or 5 years now.

I like this, but maybe just bring in a passport/driving license and proof of address so your details are verified aswell.

o1s1n

Fiach Dubh wrote:

I think a licence would be a bit too much but maybe having to bring your weapons down to your local cop shop and have them registered would be ok, I know this sounds like licencing but I mean much less formal. If a licence was brought in for Airsoft I'd want to see the 1 joule limit removed.

Another thing to do would be if and when retailers start selling weapons in Ireland the retailer has you fill in a purchase form in the shop, name, age, address, etc. This form could be sent to the Guards and would go on record. I believe martial arts shops that sell edged weapons have been doing this for 4 or 5 years now.

i like the idea of a retailer keeping track of who they sold to and sending it on to the gards. i dont like the idea of bringing your weapons down to the garda station though. that sounds a bit scary. even if you did ring ahead, which im certain most sane people would do

MaxForce

The one thing that hits me about all the replies in ths thread is that there is somthing needed to legislate the buying of airsoft guns. The DOJ have got to address this problem befor somthing happens to make us all look bad. But as it stands we are all just owners of realistic looking "toys". Its only a matter of time befor springers appear on the stalls in Eyre Square again.

Dave!

Yeah. I think we should also start referring to them more as "sporting equipment", rather than toys. I know for the purpose of explaination calling them toys is helpful, but it also makes it look like the people who partake in the sport don't actually take it seriously and don't weigh up the risks.

The sooner a national organisation for airsoft is set up, the better. I'd like to get to the DOJ with our own suggestions before they cop onto it and impose their own harsh regulations. We need to show them that we take it seriously, it is a sport, it's becoming increasingly widespread in Europe, and we just need to help steer it in the right direction rather than have it completely unregulated.

Sparks

Fiach Dubh wrote:

I think a licence would be a bit too much but maybe having to bring your weapons down to your local cop shop and have them registered would be ok, I know this sounds like licencing but I mean much less formal. If a licence was brought in for Airsoft I'd want to see the 1 joule limit removed.

Can I just remind folks that there is no one joule limit to the airsoft guns you can have. It's just that if you have one that's over one joule, you must have a firearms licence or authorisation for it. Below one joule, that's not necessary.

[--SC(+)PE--]

Am i right in thinking that it counts as assault to shoot someone at a skirmish with a licensed airsoftgun with their consent? I cant remember were i read that or if it applied to the North /uk or somewere. Id happily pay 40e a year if i were alowd to skirmish with such a rifle.[i already pay that for my airrifle i never use ]

o1s1n

if it were assault then how do paintball guns get away with it? they're licensed too. and shoot a hell of a lot harder. i'd say you should be fine once the site you're shooting on is covered to paintball joule levels

MaxForce

o1s1n wrote:

if it were assault then how do paintball guns get away with it? they're licensed too. and shoot a hell of a lot harder. i'd say you should be fine once the site you're shooting on is covered to paintball joule levels

I think the problem arises where the gun is not declared to the site as been over 1J. IE a hot gun. This became evident in the thread over on ASI in relation to safe shooting distences.

Sparks

Am i right in thinking that it counts as assault to shoot someone at a skirmish with a licensed airsoft gun with their consent?

No, you're not. It counts as assault if you point an airsoft gun at someone and they honestly believe it's a real firearm and their life is in danger. At that point, if you are arrested and charged, you would be charged as if it had been a real, loaded firearm. If you're in a skirmish match, obviously there is an expectation that airsoft guns will be pointed at you and there is also obviously knowledge that you won't be injured as a result.

Now, if you were to shoot someone in the face and cause damage, despite the rules of the game saying this was prohibited, that might be a different matter. But I don't know if it'd be an assault charge.

o1s1n

MaxForce wrote:

I think the problem arises where the gun is not declared to the site as been over 1J. IE a hot gun. This became evident in the thread over on ASI in relation to safe shooting distences.

yes but see these people call it a "hot gun" as they dont have a license for it. technically making it illegal to hold. scope was talking about if he had a license

[--SC(+)PE--]

ive read so many debates about it on airsoftireland it gets confusing.Anyone else thinking of getting a licensed rifle over 1 joule?

MaxForce

Sorry misinterpratation. I thought they called it "hot gun" as it was upgraded.

I don't know are they a good thing or a bad thing. Maybe under certain circumstances like a sniper but I don't like the idea of them where a shot could be taken from close range. Been shot with a BB would be bad enough but with an upgraded gun be it licensed or no not, the jury is out on that for the moment.

[--SC(+)PE--]

well generally anyone using a gun over 1 joule would have 2 do a bit of practising at guesssing ranges and adhere to minimum engagement distances and the like so it should be all well

o1s1n

hmm. ive said it before, no AEGs over 1j if you cant hit something at 1j, upgrading it isnt going to help. practicing shooting on the other hand...

someone said something interesting over on ASI.
basically, if you have an upgraded AEG you own an unlicensed fully automatic weapon. which doesnt sound too good when coming from the mouth of a Gard.

[--SC(+)PE--]

hence why its the vsr im thinking about not the m14 though its mighty tempting.
Ya i love shooting left handed its tres fun and usefull depending on the cover your in.
Hmm Wonder how hard it would be 2 lock an AEG [m14] to semi