Boxing lessons for rapists?

Magic Eight Ball

Dunno if anyone has seen this in any of the morning papers, as this is a self-defense forum I figured I should post it and see what people think.

The teenage scum bags who took part in a horrible gang rape a while back in Clare, while they locked the girls boyfriend in the trunk of his car, who are now serving time in st pats, are among countless other rapists, thugs and scum bags who are receiving free boxing lessons from, none other the Nicky Cruz.

And best of all, the tax payer is footing the bill.
What do you think about it? Anyone here think it’s a good idea? Maybe teach these guys some discipline and respect?
Maybe these guys could turn their lives around with it?

Personally I’ve come to expect this kind of thing from the Irish government.
I think is only gonna make highly dangerous scum bags even more of a threat to society.

And as one Journalist said "what next, target practice for gun thugs?"

Dragan

I'm pretty well known both on this board and among my friends for being a particularly unforgiving ba*tard and I have a massive ammount of issues with the Irish Prison system. This is just another one.

If you do a crime such as rape, murder , child molestation, my simple opinion is that you go to a big dark hole and stay there. You can feel as bad about it as you want, but the simple fact is that you did it….why should you be given a chance to change your life when your leaving behind someone who will most likely never change theirs after what you did to them?

Bollix to be honest.

Baggio...

Dragan wrote:

If you do a crime such as rape, murder , child molestation, my simple opinion is that you go to a big dark hole and stay there.

Fekin' right! the way it should be.

Ah, but instead good old Bertie just sends them to another holiday camp.:mad:

17HMR

There doesn't appear to be a whole lot of justice in the "criminal-justice system". Modern prison conditions offer little deterrent to scum like this and certainly no rehabilitation. Prison appears merely to be a residential training course for their future criminal activities.

I find it incredible that boxing, or any other martial art or sport, would be taught to violent offenders. This must be truly sickening for the victims of their crimes to read about.

yomchi

I'd take it a step further and bring in a new generation of disappeared. Stalin wasn't all bad

Vegeta

i hate the way the government are always saying that prison should reform inmates.

NO prison should punish the scum who are sent there. Prison should be the single worst experience of a persons life. that might be some motivation never to go back.

FiannaGym.com

My two cents:

If we had a refurendum, and those who voted to lock these guys up indefinately were going to exclusively pay the tax to keep them locked up I think many would change their tune.

Basically, a reformed criminal is a functioning member of society and a tax payer. One who is locked up cost lots of money to you and me. So not only does the criminal do the crime, he also reaches into our pockets. Like he's doing with boxing. "free" leasons yea right.

Vegeta wrote:

Prison should be the single worst experience of a persons life. that might be some motivation never to go back.

Thats a great idea but when we consider countries that have terrible prisons, people still repeatedly offend. Thats what humans do, culturally they are programmed, like people smoking, they know its going to kill them, slowly and painfully, their standard of living is lower, their penis shrinks, they can't be competitive in sports, so many things yet they still smoke. It's not prison that deters people from crime it is who they are programmed to be that deters them. Likewise, people who eat to mucha nd have a horrible self image. We can chalk this down to [a poor slef image that is comforted by eating which leads to an even worse self image], but that "whole" is a cultural programme, there is not disconnect or conflict just another sterotype.

In general a society will prop up this tye of behaviour (hence its existence in the first place). So if Little William from the leafy suburbs of South County Dublin kills a dude in a "fight" he'll get off scot free, because society (the Criminal Justice System, the Jury i.e. his peers etc) will find him innocent, or unfit to got the prison. Boko from the mansions in the city centre will do time for robbing little William's ipod (red U2 edition 400 notes if you do't mind) because society deems him fit, and it fitting, that he go to jail. Hence, WHO goes to jail, is the determining factor not WHY. Just look at Saudi Arabia, loose a hand for stealing? Thats some deterant, yet people steal. We of course will say "its out of despiration, for food" to try and rationalise a completely whimsical notion of the world into our frame of being.

I hate myself for saying it but Freakanomics covers some good stuff about crack dealers and asks why they deal crack (America's most dangerous job) while earning less than minimum wage? Anyway, its worth a read even if "Freakanomics" is just bad economic anthropology. haha.

Secifically to this thread: Teaching guys like this boxing is stupid. Teaching them something like points karate, knitting, painting, carpentry, building, etc is a good solid idea. Teaching them something that could help them commit a crime like boxing, accounting, get away driving etc. is silly.

To the wider prison idea: The money pissed away on the criminal "justice" system would be better spent on prevention (obviously). In certain areas we have created a prison culture, "prison" is becoming a cetral part of peoples lives.

Peace

Millionaire

I actually know that girl who was raped, she was a friend of my friend, and I do believe she is quite messed up still over it,

dlofnep

Boxing lessons for rapists is a stupid idea.

Aoife-FM104

Wow, lots of small minds here!

I have two issues with some of the comments here -

1. People who molest, rape, murder, etc are mentally ill. They need help. The reason we don't do that stuff is because we are mentally healthy. So the prison system needs to try to help and reform these people.

2. The way we treat our criminals is a sign of how healthy our society is. Do you really want to go down the route of Iran and China, giving your government massive power to treat prisoners like dirt? What about all the wrong convictions?

I agree with the boxing lessons. In fact, I agree with anything which help rehabilitate. Sticking them in a dark room will only make them worse...

petes

I agree with sticking them in a boxing ring a kicking the ****e out of them.

Dragan

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

1. People who molest, rape, murder, etc are mentally ill. They need help. The reason we don't do that stuff is because we are mentally healthy. So the prison system needs to try to help and reform these people.

Excuse me if I don't have a bleeding heart. Calm me non PC, but I don't care what you want to call it….if someone is "mentally ill" and this results in them doing harm to other people then they need to be dealt with accordingly. To be honest, anyone who does has a genuine problem it normally comes out in court, just because you kill someone does not make you "mentally ill"….it makes you a murderer. If these guys are all mentally ill then they need psychiatric care, not jail time.

I know a few guys who have killed people and are currently doing time. Non of them were mentally ill. They were just scumbags. I imagine it’s nice to think that people need to have something wrong with them so they can do these things but it's really not the case. Sometimes they can just do them because they want to. Scary, eh?

Now then, to call some of these guys "mentally ill" is pretty much just bleeding heart book passing…"they have problems"….not they don't, we have problems…and it’s them.

The reason the majority of people do not kill other people is not because we are mentally healthy….it's because we are shackled by a higher thought process and an idea of a soul and a general concern for our fellow man. Funnily enough there are plenty of "mentally ill" people in the world who have never killed anyone.

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

2. The way we treat our criminals is a sign of how healthy our society is. Do you really want to go down the route of Iran and China, giving your government massive power to treat prisoners like dirt? What about all the wrong convictions?...

I'm not saying to stack people ten high on top of each other, but there is no reason for Sky Movies and top class food and gym and boxing classes in prison. A guy I knew got out of prison about 3 months ago and described it as "great". What the hell is that about? We assume that removing someones freedom of movements is enough punishment for a crime committed. Certain crimes need to have steeper punishments, simple as.

We now have a prison system that does not allow people to leave a building, but gives them no reason to have to do so.

Magic Eight Ball

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

1. People who molest, rape, murder, etc are mentally ill. They need help. The reason we don't do that stuff is because we are mentally healthy. So the prison system needs to try to help and reform these people.

Reform them yes.. teaching them to be more skilful with their fists is not reform.

Aoife-FM104

Dragan wrote:

Excuse me if I don't have a bleeding heart.

You don't need to be a bleeding heart to be civilised!

Treat others as you would like to be treated, etc.

Everyone should be given a chance to reform.

Millionaire

I am all for rehab for crims....teach them skills to help in outside world, like education, trades, counseling to ensure they do not do crime again and they understand the hurt they caused, get them off drugs in the prisions, however I do believe also if you do the crime you to the time. so long sentances for bad crimes.

Teaching any inmate in any sort of jail boxing or any other form of MA is just plan stupid....sure their learning skills they can use against the prision warders if trouble break out, or indeed on each other.

Whats going be next, teach the BJJ, so they can learn to choke prisions guards out??

Sounds like these rapists scum are getting more SD training than the average gardai recruit in templemore...I think they the gardai get 15 hours on training in stupid police style arm locks that rarely work....unless you soften the person you are trying to lock up, with a good smack or a knee in the balls.

I was chatting to a prision guard once who worked in mountjoy a few years back and as far as I remember he said the unarmed training was not great. so him and some other guards, trained on the lunch break, and sparred kickboxing and stuff like that.

Sure let the crims play football or basket ball or snooker etc....but boxing, MA, and pumping iron should not be allowed.

The same guard told me he had the 2 famous westies under his guard Suggs and Coates at various times and both got massively pumped on weight while in jail, and sure enough Coates I think he said refused to come outof the cell one day,, and the raiding party had an awful job getting him out, due to the strenght and size he developed in the cloverhill prision gym!!!

So the prison gym, worked against the system.

Dragan

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

You don't need to be a bleeding heart to be civilised!

Treat others as you would like to be treated, etc.

Everyone should be given a chance to reform.

Indeed, i assume the should i ever kill someone that i will be punished for it. Whatever my reasons or my motives, beyound self defence and being in the knoweldge the someone is actively trying to kill me at the time i would like to think that i will be dealt with accordingly....as someone who has ended someones else life, against there will and for my own benefit, simply because i felt i had the right too.

I find it funny that you think everyone should be given the chance to reform. Not everyone is entitled to a second chance. If the Allies got there hands on Hitler before he shot himself, should he have been allowed to say "Sorry bout that....i feel really bad, lock me up for a bit, give me a tv with Digital and a chance to do some art and lets see what happens?"

Not really.

Aoife, i'm simply beginning to get the opinion that you believe in chances because you think thats what "good" people believe in, and you think your a good person. I'm sure you are, but thats no reason to pity the bad ones.

Khannie

Trevor Coulahan wrote:

Reform them yes.. teaching them to be more skilful with their fists is not reform.

This pretty much sums it up for me. Pure stupidity tbh. As others have pointed out, these newfound skills can be used against other prisoners and guards alike.

easyontheeye

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

You don't need to be a bleeding heart to be civilised!

Treat others as you would like to be treated, etc.

Everyone should be given a chance to reform.

Its easy to say that when it hasnt happened to you...some sick acts/crimes dont warrant reform or a second chance.

If these people were punished more severly ..this may in itself be a deterrent to stop anyone (who is thinking about committing a sexual assault) from commiting the crime. the penalties for these crimes need to be increased 10 fold.

Millionaire

Irish criminals should be sent to the infamous jail in Thailand...the Bangkok Hilton! for a 6 month spell, after what I have read in books and heard over here, and seen on the net....there would be very little repeat offenders.

Drug dealing gets a 99 years jail term...no parole, and maybe death penality. if your on death row, they only give you 2 hours notice before they give you lethal injection... before this they tied you to a pole and machine gunned you with 15 rounds in the back from about 6 feet away.

The Thais believe in punishing criminals hard.

Magic Eight Ball

Millionaire wrote:

Irish criminals should be sent to the infamous jail in Thailand...the Bangkok Hilton! for a 6 month spell, after what I have read in books and heard over here, and seen on the net....there would be very little repeat offenders.

Drug dealing gets a 99 years jail term...no parole, and maybe death penality. if your on death row, they only give you 2 hours notice before they give you lethal injection... before this they tied you to a pole and machine gunned you with 15 rounds in the back from about 6 feet away.

The Thais believe in punishing criminals hard.

I hear 'Big Tiger' is another Thai prison to be feared.

judomick

Aoife-fm104

If they were mentally unstable they would not be in prison they would be in a psychiatric unit, if someone sinks so low to commint a crime of rape etc they deserve to be severely punished, if you were raped would you say "ah sure he has problems lets put him in prison and give him a few hugs" i doubt it

We need thai style prisons here that would be a huge deterrent

also someone mentioned what if they were wrongly convicted? well thats not the prison systems fault its the courts and the DPP's fault

Millionaire

all Thai prisons should be feared. read that book by the fellow from Co Monaghan surname is Martin "welcome to hell" who spent 8 years in it, in a miscarriage of justice...

"The Damage Done" by warren fellows is another one. a scary read.

One night the Bangkok Drug squad came down to Pattaya, and set up a check point outside Lucifers disco in walking street and drug tested and serached every foreigner coming out. I think 14 were arrested with drugs...recreational on them...so they'd be away for a long time. Drugs is usually no bail, and its about 3 years before your court hearing comes up! and when on remand you are in leg irons 24 x 7 for up to 3 years.

anyway there is loads of info on web.

Magic Eight Ball

Millionaire wrote:

all Thai prisons should be feared. read that book by the fellow from Co Monaghan surname is Martin "welcome to hell" who spent 8 years in it, in a miscarriage of justice...

"The Damage Done" by warren fellows is another one. a scary read.

One night the Bangkok Drug squad came down to Pattaya, and set up a check point outside Lucifers disco in walking street and drug tested and serached every foreigner coming out. I think 14 were arrested with drugs...recreational on them...so they'd be away for a long time. Drugs is usually no bail, and its about 3 years before your court hearing comes up! and when on remand you are in leg irons 24 x 7 for up to 3 years.

anyway there is loads of info on web.

Yeah I've both those books.
Remember the Irish guy learned Muay Thai while inside.

spiral

Lads this is Ireland not thailand.
Fianna had a few good points earlier , prevention is better than cure and a system that is a little bit more evenhanded would be nice, not one where daddies wallet can get you off.
Listen to the governor of Mountjoy John Lonergan on the radio he believes that there is a strong link between social and economic deprivation and crime.
Not that people shouldnt be punished for crimes if they commit them but that its the same socio-economic groups that end up in jail time after time and money spent on educating these people is money far better spent than money being spent to lock them up.

All that being said I would still make a large distinction between a career criminal and a rapist/murderer/sex offender.

crokester

judomick wrote:

We need thai style prisons here that would be a huge deterrent

Yea because their a huge deterrent in Thailand where their packed liked canned tuna.

dent

I am truly disgusted that rapists are being thought boxing. Gives there victims even less of a chance to resist. It just boggles the mind.

I'm sure going to prison is a badge of honor for these guys. I doubt their peers
are even a little bit ashamed of them.

Prison should be made a living hell for prisoners.

The only form of RR they should get is the access to educational materials.

In regards to rapists and pedophiles I would happily foot the tax bill to ensure they never ever leave prison.

judomick

already been pointed out socio-economic's has a huge influence on crime rates, poor under educated are more likely to commit crimes, im do you think theres a higher ratio of poverty in ireland or thailand?

Also The Thai judicial system would be alot harsher, crimes in ireland people are convicted of might not get jail time whereas in thailand you would be sent to prison

Dyr

we can always hope against hope that by "boxing lesson" they mean "being hung from a rafter and used as a punch bag by nick cruz"......

i seem to remember readine that the UK prisons system totally ban any activity that had combat application. No idea why they dont over here

spiral

judomick wrote:

already been pointed out socio-economic's has a huge influence on crime rates, poor under educated are more likely to commit crimes, im do you think theres a higher ratio of poverty in ireland or thailand?

Well Mick if it has a huge influence why not target these people before they commit any crime even if its only to try and reduce the taxpayers burden in later years.

Thailand of course has a higher ratio, no argument there however on the otherhand the poor and undereducated are a minority in this country Mick not a majority, the same group of people same families even seem to get left further and further behind everyone else not grasping the opportunities that everyone else seems to take for granted.

Im not a bleeding heart and I would recommend harsher jail sentences but at the same time it makes sense to tackle the root of the problem and try to prevent these people comitting serious crime in the first place.
I would not like Ireland to end up like the US with 1% of the population locked up behind bars , where harsh sentences and the death penalty seem to provide little deterrent.

cowzerp

Personally i'd hang all rapists and paedo's but thats a no-no.
There is no point in putting them away for a few years releasing them and nothing has changed.boxing is great for self esteem and discipline and in the real rough areas boxers are hardly ever in trouble-if it works great-if not they could be a bigger danger to the public?????

Valmont

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

People who molest, rape, murder, etc are mentally ill. They need help. The reason we don't do that stuff is because we are mentally healthy. So the prison system needs to try to help and reform these people.

Some of them may be mentally ill, but just in the same way as any non offenders would be. Categorising serious criminals as mentally ill may simplify the situation to a more black and white scenario but the truth is it unsettles people to think a 'sane' person could commit such a serious crime as rape or murder. Which, unfortunately is often the case.

JohnMc1

You mean to tell me I can't get Boxing lessons because "I'm too old" but rapists can get them? What garbage.

Aoife-FM104. I guarantee that if someone close to you was raped you would not be spewing this PC bleeding heart liberal drivel.

The Shane

A little all over the place with my points but really just looking for a more cohesive argument to appear...

1. If someone close to Aoife got raped I imagine that the criminal justice system would not let her be on any sort of jury. The idea of impartiality needs to be respected. I walk down the street and think every tool that litters should be chemically castrated.... that's not the frame of mind an impartial jury/judge should have. Crimes need to be judged by people removed from the instance and well versed in the nuances of that society. Thus we cannot use the argument "how would you feel....?" for any sort of sentence determining.

2. The idea of mental illness- we all have to some degree or other a mental illness, especially over achieving athletic types with daddy complexes, weight issues and severe little man syndrome, but we manage to walk around and not hurt people too severely. This is not a case of well and ill, more a case of socially acceptable and not. We are all unwell, the not raping you clique is just in charge right now.

3. I'm all for rehab, if it's possible. However in certain instances it seems not to take hold, so a more severe tack is necessary. Public opinion seems to be against corporal and capital punishment - largely due to where lines need to be drawn on who gets what. Thailand and Holland are worlds apart and the view within in our society run the full spectrum, so the lowest common denominator is not killing people.

4. The teaching of boxing to inmates is more of a PR gaff than anything else.

5. As far as "some crimes are too serious, should Hitler be allowed repent?", yeah. As stokes said a productive member of society is better than a prisoner and as a corollary better than a dead man. As long as you could be certain that someone has reformed.... there in lies the trick. The reason for executing a tyrant like Hitler or (to be topical) is it is in the interest of the majority. A trophy of the war, appeasing the masses and a semblance of justice, these things are all just constructs anyway. We lend them power by believing in them.

6. rehabilitation vs vengenace - the law needs to do both.

All random, leave me alone.

The Shane

A little all over the place with my points but really just looking for a more cohesive argument to appear...

1. If someone close to Aoife got raped I imagine that the criminal justice system would not let her be on any sort of jury. The idea of impartiality needs to be respected. I walk down the street and think every tool that litters should be chemically castrated.... that's not the frame of mind an impartial jury/judge should have. Crimes need to be judged by people removed from the instance and well versed in the nuances of that society. Thus we cannot use the argument "how would you feel....?" for any sort of sentence determining.

2. The idea of mental illness- we all have to some degree or other a mental illness, especially over achieving athletic types with daddy complexes, weight issues and severe little man syndrome, but we manage to walk around and not hurt people too severely. This is not a case of well and ill, more a case of socially acceptable and not. We are all unwell, the not raping you clique is just in charge right now.

3. I'm all for rehab, if it's possible. However in certain instances it seems not to take hold, so a more severe tack is necessary. Public opinion seems to be against corporal and capital punishment - largely due to where lines need to be drawn on who gets what. Thailand and Holland are worlds apart and the view within in our society run the full spectrum, so the lowest common denominator is not killing people.

4. The teaching of boxing to inmates is more of a PR gaff than anything else.

5. As far as "some crimes are too serious, should Hitler be allowed repent?", yeah. As stokes said a productive member of society is better than a prisoner and as a corollary better than a dead man. As long as you could be certain that someone has reformed.... there in lies the trick. The reason for executing a tyrant like Hitler or (to be topical) is it is in the interest of the majority. A trophy of the war, appeasing the masses and a semblance of justice, these things are all just constructs anyway. We lend them power by believing in them.

6. rehabilitation vs vengenace - the law needs to do both.

All random, leave me alone.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Dragan wrote:

I'm pretty well known both on this board and among my friends for being a particularly unforgiving ba*tard and I have a massive ammount of issues with the Irish Prison system. This is just another one.

If you do a crime such as rape, murder , child molestation, my simple opinion is that you go to a big dark hole and stay there. You can feel as bad about it as you want, but the simple fact is that you did it….why should you be given a chance to change your life when your leaving behind someone who will most likely never change theirs after what you did to them?

Bollix to be honest.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

IMO this country is just way too liberal with just about any poor 'ol ba$tard with a hard luck story.

gymrabbit

Questions like this one are Questions of Justice versus Mercy. The law must be both. Just and merciful.

If I remember correctly, these boys were a group of thugs who were frequently in custody of the guards but due to their age etc. never prosectued properly. Then, they viciously gang rapped a woman. Rape any normal person will agree is one of the most heinous of crimes. It is a crime based on the abuse of power as much sexual violence. Of course people that commit this crime, and similar, fall into the bracket most of us consider "sick - fukked up - scumbag" But evilness is not a product of mental illness. A rapist, unless proven to be of unsound mind should be tried and punished to the fullest extent of the law - prison.

Ask any governer of any prison in Ireland, especially John lonergan, they will tell you prison is not the place to reform criminals in ireland it is a place to store them. And they are kept well, they're fundamental human rights are not in question, and many are afforded luxuries - Televisions, books, more than an hours exercise, top class food (mountjoy prison is a 4 star resturant I think). The role of prison guards is to keep prisoners in prisons and safe from harm, from each other and from themselves. Of course, guard security is of the highest importance also.

There are simply not the funding, the know how, the energy or the drive for the irish prison system to rehabilitate prisoners. Yes, they have access to gyms, teachers, a boxing ring in this question, other things. But unless the concept of prison acts as a incentive many with re offend.

Anyone who reads the herald is familar with the concept of young irish boys commiting petty and not so petty crimes. They'll usually get a few bangs from the local garda and be put back on the street after a few hours in the police cell. After numerous arrests and rearrests they may find themselves in St. Pats. Full of similar little thugs/knackers/young men. In these communites, tallaght, ballymun, fingals, summerhill, east wall etc. etc. these rites of passage - st pats - mountjoy - are status symbols, socially accepted events. It sounds ridiculous but some boys go from school to secondary school to college to a job. It's a little different for them.

Ok. Young rapists been taught boxing, the struggle between justice and mercy. I'm in favour of any initiative that breds a bit of civility into a group of boys like these. If training in boxing, honest sound training with good role models helps turn these creatures into reasonable human beings. all well and good. I don't think because they're better boxers they'll be better rapists is a realistic issue. The situation was a gang rape. Against semidefenceless people. This was a crime of the mind, not merely the body.

Of course, if they come out non-rapists we should be happy. The chances of them coming out non-thugs is less likely.

Roper

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

1. People who molest, rape, murder, etc are mentally ill. They need help. The reason we don't do that stuff is because we are mentally healthy. So the prison system needs to try to help and reform these people.

Hmmm, I think in the case of gang rape and similar activities we're not talking about mental illness but a more complex social/group problem. I'd have to go find where I read it but I think there's been some study on this. Basically the group's actions are sort of cyclical. I'm fuzzy on it right now but as far as I remember it didn't cite mental illness as a cause.

Just for clarification. There are several types of rapist, and very few are mentally ill. While I agree that reform should be the goal of any society's prisons, the difficulty is that mysoginistic behaviour is becoming increasingly accepted in our society. For a glimpse of this see some of the reports on America's young middle class "jock" culture and the view of women in those. Not very flattering.

Boxing for young criminals seems daft to me, but then again, boxing has kept many a young fella on the straight and narrow, as have sports in general. So maybe thats what they have in mind.

paxo

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

Wow, lots of small minds here!

I have two issues with some of the comments here -

1. People who molest, rape, murder, etc are mentally ill. They need help. The reason we don't do that stuff is because we are mentally healthy. So the prison system needs to try to help and reform these people.

I agree with the boxing lessons. In fact, I agree with anything which help rehabilitate. Sticking them in a dark room will only make them worse...

This statement is untrue. People with a serious mental illness ie psychosis, bi-polar disorders etc commit fewer crimes than the general population. A significant numer of people who commit serious crimes are later diagnosed as having psychopatic personality type ( lack of empathy, high needs for instant gratification etc, no remorse ). Although serious mental illness can and should be treated I am unaware of any effective treatment for psychopats

In regard to boxing lessons it is argueable that they benefitted Mike Tyson in his development as a productive member of society

Paxo

Dyr

Im gonna be honest and say most the junior scumbags that grew up around me were just made into more dangerous scumbags by training in boxing.

I think someone put it best with the line "these arent good people gone bad, they're bad people gone worse"

Goldfinger

Roper wrote:

Boxing has kept many a young fella on the straight and narrow, as have sports in general.

Agreed. Also, we have very little information on what the training in question actually consists of, it may simply be a boxing-oriented fitness course, or the like. The whole air of this thing smacks a little of the Evening Herald-type sensationalism we're always seeing. Several of my friends have trained with Mr. Cruz, and they tell me he's very into his Yoga and meditation-type stuff, so perhaps he'll be incorporating that type of training into his programme, which couldn't be a bad thing under the circumstances.

The relevant question here is: Will these types of programmes in our prisons have any effect on inmates re-offending? If you think no, fair enough.
If you think that they will, then , regardless of our personal distaste for the whole thing, and our reluctance to be seen to spoil the inmates in question, maybe we should put society's needs before our personal feelings.

And I don't have a lot of time for the type of rhetoric so popular nowadays along the lines of "prison is so easy, it's a holiday camp, etc."
Prison is hell for any normal person. And don't forget, under the right (wrong) circumstances, we're ALL potential murderers.

***************************************************

(We are not, however, all potential rapists. Rapists should be hanged from a high yard-arm till their legs quit kickin'.
Gang rapists and child abusers should be hanged from an even higher yard-arm.)

sharpjaws

Bambi wrote:

Im gonna be honest and say most the junior scumbags that grew up around me were just made into more dangerous scumbags by training in boxing.

I think someone put it best with the line "these arent good people gone bad, they're bad people gone worse"

start disciplining kids , take 2 weeks of their holidays after junior cert and send them to the Army( Irish Army are pretty disciplined right??), thats all i can think of that might teach them few lessons . altho its still down to the parents to teach their kids

Aoife-FM104

Guys, guys... most of you sound like a bunch of macho jerks. Kind of sad really. I was hoping this forum was not a stereotype!

The fact that you want to live in a country which treats its criminals like animals is very sad indeed.

JohnMc1 wrote:

Aoife-FM104. I guarantee that if someone close to you was raped you would not be spewing this PC bleeding heart liberal drivel.

Excuse me. You know nothing about my friends, or what I've been through. I assure you I know a lot more about rape than you do.

If you want to lower yourself to the level of a criminal, fine. I just hope you expect to receive the same justice which you so desperately want to serve.

meepins

I don't think rape is dealt with as severly as it should be. There seems to be a lack of empathy prevelant. I'm actually feeling quite sick to my stomach reading that and then the kicker.. they are now getting boxing lessons in prison?! It's insanity. I know it's not a feasible thing to do but really these scumbags need castrating.. there I said it.. of course there is a problem with innocent people getting caught up in that draconian punishment. Apparently there is drug treatments that can kill off testosterone levels and sex drive.I'd be all for that

Any idea where to best find the statistics on rape re offenders?

judomick

spiral wrote:

Well Mick if it has a huge influence why not target these people before they commit any crime even if its only to try and reduce the taxpayers burden in later years..

why not indeed , as im not a Td your question would probably be better directed at one, im just stating a fact

spiral wrote:

Thailand of course has a higher ratio, no argument there however on the otherhand the poor and undereducated are a minority in this country Mick not a majority,

Which is why thailands ratio of prisoners per population is higher

spiral wrote:

Im not a bleeding heart and I would recommend harsher jail sentences but at the same time it makes sense to tackle the root of the problem and try to prevent these people comitting serious crime in the first place.

well said

HammerHeadGym

Hey Gang,
I've heard about these sort of programs before, young offender joy rider programs, where by if you get caught again you are kicked off the program. These are in operation in the u.s. and u.k. to great success, with very small amount of re-offenders. Now, would that work for rapists and combat training? God only knows but i doubt it. Although, the prisons, as they are, are no deterrent, due mainly to socio-economic factors than a lack of effort from the prison system, so maybe we do need a new approach.
And for anyone who says that prison are holiday camps and so on, i recommend you head along to one of the prison visitor programs, where you can visit prisoners who don't get visits from family or friends, and let them tell you about the idyllic paradise with which they find themselves surrounded and from which they can never leave.
Incidentally, i'm still waiting for a full report but the program these guys are on is not being singled out and rewarded for their vile act with some private nicky cruz lessons. From what i understand, nicky cruz is doing some sort of fitness program for the whole prison, and these scumbags happen to be entitled to 3 hours of exercise a day. It sounds to me like some hack took a tenuous link between these two entirely unrelated events and blew 'em up to make copy.

Also Shane and Pearse are spot on.

i) This isn't really about martial arts.
ii) Don't read ****rags like the evening herald.
iii) Training in boxing might well be a useful rehabilitation device, but until its benefits have been conclusively proven, it should be kept to non-violent offenders.
iv) As far as I can see the main purpose of Irish prisons is to create customers for drug dealers.

/Andy\

Deleted User wrote:

i) This isn't really about martial arts.
ii) Don't read ****rags like the evening herald.
iii) Training in boxing might well be a useful rehabilitation device, but until its benefits have been conclusively proven, it should be kept to non-violent offenders.
iv) As far as I can see the main purpose of Irish prisons is to create customers for drug dealers.

I second this, sadly in the case of point iv

Dan133269

cowzerp wrote:

Personally i'd hang all rapists and paedo's but thats a no-no.

Unfortunately. I'm strongly in favour of re-introducing the death penalty, situations like this would warrant it in my opinion. And yes I know most people don't agree with me.

Roper

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

Guys, guys... most of you sound like a bunch of macho jerks. Kind of sad really. I was hoping this forum was not a stereotype!

The fact that you want to live in a country which treats its criminals like animals is very sad indeed.

Take an emotive issue like rape and ask people about it in any walk of life and I think the answers would follow the same pattern. I think you've ignored some of the more coherent answers that questioned some of your assumptions, for example the contention that gang rape is the result of mental illness, or that rape itself is always the result a mental problem.

Aoife-FM104

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

Treat others as you would like to be treated, etc.

Everyone should be given a chance to reform.

I see. So these knackers carefully considered how they'd like their own mother/sister to be treated when they locked a man in the boot of a car and gang raped his girlfriend. Tell me, how can boxing re-adjust that part of the brain which knows it's wrong to shout "we're riding your bird" at someone?

I agree that in the long term we have to tackle the root of the problem but I'm very familiar with this case and what these kids (and they are just kids) did deserves a long, long time in prison.

Boxing lessons, of all things, for convicted rapists is insane.

Khannie

Aoife-FM104 wrote:

Guys, guys... most of you sound like a bunch of macho jerks. Kind of sad really. I was hoping this forum was not a stereotype!

Get over yourself tbh. You come in here hurling abuse, calling people macho jerks and ignoring many many fine points that were made because it suits your weak argument to do so.

Many people in here agree with your points on some level (myself included). Others disagree (myself included). You should respect that difference instead of coming in with grossly generalised insults.