Importing a NEW Car from Europe

GTFABM

I have been asked by the boss to look into the pros and cons of importing a new car to possibly save a few quid. Anybody got any info on where to order right-hand drive BMWs from Belguim / Germany / etc

Thanks

peasant

You can pretty much scrap that one ...

On a new car you will have to pay VAT and VRT. Sure, you can buy from another country without paying their local VAT and if you look long and hard enough you might actually find some dealer that will get you a RHD car cheaper than the Irish dealer would get it (before VAT and VRT) but by the time you get it here and add up all the transport costs and the hassle, you might as well buy here.

Continental europeans get the advantage of buying from high tax areas like Denmark/ Finland/ Holland where pre-tax prices are still somewhat discounted and have quite a potential for big savings...but those are LHD cars.

So the Irish car market, by reasons of VRT and having the steering wheel on the "wrong" side, stays firmly insular and outside the common european market.

And that, little children, is the reason why the EU officials think that irish VRT is a bad, bad thing ...and it also is the reason why the irish car industry isn't really that upset about VRT and only pays lip service to the irish consumers

Anan1

In principle, any BMW dealership will take an order for an Irish-spec car. Your first step should be to ascertain in which country the car you want has the lowest pre-tax price. You could use the BMW website for each country for this. Then start contacting BMW dealers in that country. There are also agents who sell tax-free new cars to order, you could research their prices online.

Anan1

peasant wrote:

So the Irish car market, by reasons of VRT and having the steering wheel on the "wrong" side, stays firmly insular and outside the common european market.

And that, little children, is the reason why the EU officials think that irish VRT is a bad, bad thing ...and it also is the reason why the irish car industry isn't really that upset about VRT and only pays lip service to the irish consumers

I can see how our being RHD affects competition, but I can't see how VRT does?

peasant

Anan1 wrote:

In principle, any BMW dealership will take an order for an Irish-spec car. Your first step should be to ascertain in which country the car you want has the lowest pre-tax price. You could use the BMW website for each country for this. Then start contacting BMW dealers in that country. There are also agents who sell tax-free new cars to order, you could research their prices online.

Problem with this is, that (even though it shouldn't matter) the good people in the BMW head sales office (or those of any other brand) will immediately smell a rat when they get an inquiry for a single RHD vehicle from a LHD country and all of a sudden the car is "not available" or the "list price is not applicable" or some other lame excuse and unless you want to buy a whole fleet of cars you will find it very hard to get a better pre-tax price than your irish BMW distributor/dealer would.

The only thing that could be said for ordering your car outside the irish sales channels is that you might get slightly better spec ...which of course will hit you again when the good people from revenue pull the arbitrary "open market sales price" out of their sleeve to calculate your VRT.

Seth Brundle

IIRC customers are entitled under EU law to order a RHD or LHD car and the dealership/manufacturer must oblige as they would with any other customer.

peasant

Anan1 wrote:

I can see how our being RHD affects competition, but I can't see how VRT does?

quite simply ...

VRT adds 30% or more onto the price of the car. So in order to keep cars affordable-ish, ireland actually has lower pre-tax prices than other countries ...making it virtually impossible to find anything cheaper out there pre-tax when you go hunting for it yourself.

Plus there is the added difficulty that you never know exactly what your VRT is going to be until you present the actual car to the VRT office on the day ...because the open market sales value is more or less arbitrary. You might have thought you'd save a thousand when you ordered the car ...by the time you get it here ...surprise,surprise, the VRT has magically gone up.

It is just not clearcut and therefore not competitive.

Guy:Incognito

kbannon wrote:

IIRC customers are entitled under EU law to order a RHD or LHD car and the dealership/manufacturer must oblige as they would with any other customer.

Nobody is oblidged to sell you anything if they dont want to.

Guy:Incognito

peasant wrote:

quite simply ...

VRT adds 30% or more onto the price of the car. So in order to keep cars affordable-ish, ireland actually has lower pre-tax prices than other countries ...making it virtually impossible to find anything cheaper out there pre-tax when you go hunting for it yourself.

Plus there is the added difficulty that you never know exactly what your VRT is going to be until you present the actual car to the VRT office on the day ...because the open market sales value is more or less arbitrary. You might have thought you'd save a thousand when you ordered the car ...by the time you get it here ...surprise,surprise, the VRT has magically gone up.

It is just not clearcut and therefore not competitive.

The omsp is not going to be more than the pric eof a new car tho, so if you allow for 30% of the irish new price (assuming its over 2ltr) then it can only be that figure or less.

Anan1

peasant wrote:

quite simply ...

VRT adds 30% or more onto the price of the car. So in order to keep cars affordable-ish, ireland actually has lower pre-tax prices than other countries ...making it virtually impossible to find anything cheaper out there pre-tax when you go hunting for it yourself.

Surely this is a good thing. It's good for us because our pretax prices are lower, and good for the rest of the EU because they can also buy cars here for export.

peasant wrote:

Plus there is the added difficulty that you never know exactly what your VRT is going to be until you present the actual car to the VRT office on the day ...because the open market sales value is more or less arbitrary. You might have thought you'd save a thousand when you ordered the car ...by the time you get it here ...surprise,surprise, the VRT has magically gone up.

It is just not clearcut and therefore not competitive.

This is true(ish) of used cars, but not of new ones.

peasant

Stekelly wrote:

The omsp is not going to be more than the pric eof a new car tho, so if you allow for 30% of the irish new price (assuming its over 2ltr) then it can only be that figure or less.

And that is where your individual spec comes into it again ...
Which is quite likely not to be exactly like the spec of a similar car from the "official" sales channel and you could get hit with VRT on "extras" that you weren't aware of.


Another problem is, that for most continental car manufactures production of RHD vehicles is a bit of a side show. They are usually not as flexible as with the LHD cars and stick to pre-orders and contingents to make manufacturing smoother. you might find it very hard indeed to shoe in your specific order within a reasonable delivery time.

And any excess production usually isn't kept at the manufacturers but rather at the distributors in IRL or the UK ...and gone is your savings potential.

maidhc

Stekelly wrote:

Nobody is oblidged to sell you anything if they dont want to.

That is incorrect. Under Art 81 of the Community treaties it is impermissible for companies to divide up their markets along national boundaries. Refusing to supply RHD cars in Europe would be tantamount to this.

Art 81:

The following shall be prohibited as incompatible with the common market: all agreements between undertakings, decisions by associations of undertakings and concerted practices which may affect trade between Member States and which have as their object or effect the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition within the common market, and in particular those which:

(a) directly or indirectly fix purchase or selling prices or any other trading conditions;

(b) limit or control production, markets, technical development, or investment;

(c) share markets or sources of supply;

(d) apply dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive disadvantage;

(e) make the conclusion of contracts subject to acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of such contracts.

I'd agree with Anan though. Being a RHD country is a far bigger obstacle to buying your car in Europe than VRT.

colm_mcm

maidhc wrote:

That is incorrect. Under Art 81 of the Community treaties it is impermissible for companies to divide up their markets along national boundaries:

Still doesn't mean they have to agree a suitably low price with you.

Guy:Incognito

maidhc wrote:

That is incorrect. Under Art 81 of the Community treaties it is impermissible for companies to divide up their markets along national boundaries:.

What I meant was, if you walk into a garage and say you want to buy a car, theres nothing forcing that garage to sell you one. They can tell you to fook off and take your money elswhere.

Do-more

It depends on which car you are going to import, whether or not it is going to be worthwhile, I know of two cars local to me that have been imported new from other EU countries, one is a '06 Porsche Carrera 4S sourced in Denmark (the owner brought in a 2S in '05 also) and the other is an M3 don't know where it was invoiced from but the owner picked it up in person from Munich.

I believe the '05 2S was sold on with small mileage for €10k profit so I presume the initial saving was a good bit more.

Ever since the EU slapped heavy fines on car manufacturers for trying to hinder inter EU imports (the fine on VW was something like €80 million if memory serves) there should be little or no difficulty in sourcing cars. You will of course pay an optional extra for having RHD, as production costs are understandably higher.

What car is your boss looking to import?

maidhc

colm_mcm wrote:

Still doesn't mean they have to agree a suitably low price with you.

No, they don't, and since out pre tax prices are quite reasonable, probably will not.

Generally Art 81 is used for things like commercial importing of pharmaceuticals from one European country where they are cheap and selling in another where they are expensive

A dealer on his own does not have to sell you a car, but if all dealers do then it is evidence of a "concerted practice" and impermissable. Again the fact european dealers don't generally sell RHD cars muddies the waters here to a massive extent... e.g. maybe there is a 9 mth waiting list for the car you want in RHD in Belgium... etc.

Seth Brundle

colm_mcm wrote:

Still doesn't mean they have to agree a suitably low price with you.

I recall reading somewhere that they must sell a RHD car at the same price as an equivalent LHD car.

mikedragon32

Last time I was in Nice I was speaking to an Audi Dealer who said he could supply an RHD car (he thought I was looking to buy a Q7, I did nothing to make him think differently!). He also said there would be no extra cost and he has done it before for a few British buyers.

He was going on about how expensive cars are in the UK but nearly choked on his coffee when I told him how much my A3 was here!

Seth Brundle

I had to visit a BMW dealer whilst in France during the Summer. I recently received a copy of their brochure and the prices for their cars in unreal - I'll stick up a few figures when I get home.

unkel

kbannon wrote:

I had to visit a BMW dealer whilst in France during the Summer. I recently received a copy of their brochure and the prices for their cars in unreal - I'll stick up a few figures when I get home.

BMW M5:

Germany: €87k
UK: €95k
France: €97k
Netherlands: €132k
Ireland: €137k
Denmark: €236k :eek:

I kid you not. That's the EU with free movement of goods and people :rolleyes:

Anan1

kbannon wrote:

I recall reading somewhere that they must sell a RHD car at the same price as an equivalent LHD car.

If only! Unfortunately, RHD production costs more and manufacturers are therefore perfectly entitled to charge for it.

dahamsta

I was disgusted with US pricing of the new Lexus LS. €60-70k in the US, when the old model - the LS 460 hasn't even been released here yet - is just shy of €120k in Ireland. Double the price for an older model. Both the dealers and Gov.ie should be wearing masks.

adam

unkel

dahamsta wrote:

Double the price

Yeah double the price is about right for most cars. BMW M5 in USA: €65k

O/T: makes the Lexus look very expensive though!

dahamsta

Very pricey indeed, but they do have lots of fudgies and gadgets. I think you might need an owner's manual for the owner's manual.

I'm still waiting on a nice LS 400 to come up meself, and of course your 7.

adam

Cyrus

What about all the co's in the uk that buy cars in from continental europe with thousands off list for people in the uk

surely buying from them and then paying the VRT would work out a lot cheaper?

Also the reason we have low pre tax car prices is because we get a lot of horrible poverty spec cars, i would imagine if you took bmw 3 series no other country would have such a high percentage of 318/318ci with cloth interiors!

TomMc

Pre-Tax prices in the UK are high ... that is why it can save people money to import in from other EU countries. Car specs in the UK are usually higher than a lot of other EU countries also.

Guy:Incognito

dahamsta wrote:

I was disgusted with US pricing of the new Lexus LS. €60-70k in the US, when the old model - the LS 460 hasn't even been released here yet - is just shy of €120k in Ireland. Double the price for an older model. Both the dealers and Gov.ie should be wearing masks.

adam

They also pay half as much as us for petrol, whats you point? Prices are going to be different for everything in different countries.

peasant

here's a BMW 320 d for 34500 pre-tax in Holland:

link

Is that a good price?

And what will it cost on the road here eventually?

Anan1

peasant wrote:

here's a BMW 320 d for 34500 pre-tax in Holland:

link

Is that a good price?

And what will it cost on the road here eventually?

Off the top of my head, i'd say no. A standard 320d lists for €31k in Germany, plus around €2,500 for xenons & leather and maybe €2,500 for the SE pack. That's around €36k, but it includes VAT, which I think is around 17%.

maidhc

Cyrus wrote:

What about all the co's in the uk that buy cars in from continental europe with thousands off list for people in the uk

A lot buy those cars in Ireland.

tvr

the 320d is a nice run around , can you buy that ex vat in Holland , pay vat in portugal and then register and tax the rhd in portugal or spanish summer home , then drive home to Ireland and insure in Ireland and run on port or spanish plates?

Then run the gaunlet of not being caught , its always a co worker or neighbour that usually tips the revenue off anyway.

Anan1

tvr wrote:

the 320d is a nice run around , can you buy that ex vat in Holland , pay vat in portugal and then register and tax the rhd in portugal or spanish summer home , then drive home to Ireland and insure in Ireland and run on port or spanish plates?

And then have it impounded by customs.

G Luxel

Cars sold here are third world spec. Extremely basic and options you either pay through the nose for or else they are not available. Is , for example, an M3 exactly the same here as one you would buy in Germany? It may be called M3 over there and be completely loaded and sell for 45 K, but is an M3 likely to be the same here but at treble the price? More than likely it is, and options that would alone buy a I series.

ninty9er

If I was your boss, Id buy in the most expensive place (assuming it's a company car), as depreciation is written off on the company's P&L at the end of the year and can be written off to whatever figure you see fit (within reason). You can then sell it on cheap to yourself to avoid making a profit for the purposes of tax and AFAIK it's not actually fraud

maidhc

ninty9er wrote:

If I was your boss, Id buy in the most expensive place (assuming it's a company car), as depreciation is written off on the company's P&L at the end of the year and can be written off to whatever figure you see fit (within reason). You can then sell it on cheap to yourself to avoid making a profit for the purposes of tax and AFAIK it's not actually fraud

Ummm. Depreciation is not actually deductible. There are rules relating to capital allowances (12.5% straight line allowance over 8 years), but 12 at night is too late to talk about that. There is also a qualifiying limit on that for motor cars (23k IIRC) which hits expensive cars hard.

Selling a car to a director at an undervalue also raises various issues.

Be careful, get advice.

unkel

ninty9er wrote:

If I was your boss, Id buy in the most expensive place (assuming it's a company car), as depreciation is written off on the company's P&L

Yeah, the more you can depreciate an asset, the more profit the company makes. Not :eek:

unkel

You beat me to it, maidhc

GTFABM

Thanks to all for your comments. The car in question would be a TOTR 7 series in diesel, proable a 740Ld. Part of the reason for looking abroad is that we might be able to get a 750d or 760d.

If anyone out there has any experience of importing new or nearly new I would appreciate contact info on who you dealt with.

peasant

seenashow you mention nearly new ...

If the car is over 6 months old and has more than 6000 km's (or is it miles??) on the clock, you don't have to pay Irish VAT. If you can find such a vehicle in Germany for example (and pay the VAT there), that would be an instant saving of 5% (4% from next year when the German VAT gets raised from 16% to 17%)

Alun

peasant wrote:

seenashow you mention nearly new ...

If the car is over 6 months old and has more than 6000 km's (or is it miles??) on the clock, you don't have to pay Irish VAT. If you can find such a vehicle in Germany for example (and pay the VAT there), that would be an instant saving of 5% (4% from next year when the German VAT gets raised from 16% to 17%)

I thought it was going up by 3% to 19%, so that would make only a 2% saving ?

peasant

oops ...you're right Alun ...(I must have been living here for too long:D )