Bloating Pots PF With Drawing Hands

phantom_lord

Lets say we're playing in a loose passive cash game, ops call with any draw weak tp or mp good kicker, pf there's plenty of limping. It's 1/2 and a raise of 5 is gonna be called by everyone that would have limped.

So, my question is, does it make sense to bloat pots with hands like suited aces. My reasoning is that my ops are terrible are bet sizing, if I have a draw I'm very likely to get the odds to call, similiarly, the other players are more likely to call with their non nut draws, which all adds up to a chance to take down a big multi-way pot.

I'm just wondering, is this a good idea? Since we're gonna miss most of the time should we be happpy to get to see a flop for 2 yoyos instead of bloating the pot?

Gholimoli

i love to answer this but now im too tierd to write anything.
tomorrow from work

Mr. Flibble

It makes more sense the deeper you are.

If people catch on that you are raising small amounts with these sort of hands they might reraise you to take yours and all the limpers cash. If you are in EP in a PL game then raising a small amount won't give it away but you don't want to play big pots oop anyway.

phantom_lord

We'd be folding of the time so they'd be unlikely to catch on, and if they do then just do it with aces sometime and break the sucker!

cardshark202

best to bloat them after we hit

phantom_lord

what happened gholi?

Gholimoli

phantom_lord wrote:

what happened gholi?

Ok I think in order for you to be correct to bloat the pot pre-flop with Axs hands you need to win a good % of these hands on the flop when you don’t hit anything.
So your opponents need to be loose/Passive pre-flop but rather tight post flop.
I mean if they call bets post-flop with any draw, any weak TP,or strong MP as you described then they don’t fit the description.
Basically when you raise with an unmade hand pre-flop you are essentially semi-bluffing.
You are saying there is a good chance that your opponents don’t have anything now so they will fold pre-flop but even if they call you have a chance of improving to the best hand.
Now semi bluff could be a very profitable concept and is a necessary one but you need to know that its profitability comes from the combined fold equity + chances of your hand improving to be the best.
If you take either of those elements out (ie saying you have no FE or your hand cant possibly improve to the best hand) then you’re essentially taking away from your profit.
Now back to the game in question .we said by raising the pot you are semi bluffing but the problem with this is that you have very little FE against your loose opponents which means your semi-bluff has reduced profitability because now you often have to improve to the best hand to win .so based on that you will see that its not a good idea to be building pots with out a made hand against loose opposition.
Now if the loose opposition turned tight post flop and would drop most hands post flop then by all means you have ideal game to be raising pots with Axs pre-flop etc.
The tighter they are postflop and the worse they play post flop the wider your range can be to raise pre-flop.

Bandana boy

cardshark202 wrote:

best to bloat them after we hit

Totally agree
If opponenets are as loose as you say then bloating hoping to hit and get paid really shows weakness on your part.
It suggests you dont have the skill to build the pot after the flop hits so your hoping to get lucky in a raised pot ?
not good

Hectorjelly

with Axs preflop you want as many opponents as possible; hopefully with dominated flushdraws.

phantom_lord

Gholimoli wrote:

Ok I think in order for you to be correct to bloat the pot pre-flop with Axs hands you need to win a good % of these hands on the flop when you don’t hit anything.
So your opponents need to be loose/Passive pre-flop but rather tight post flop.
I mean if they call bets post-flop with any draw, any weak TP,or strong MP as you described then they don’t fit the description.
Basically when you raise with an unmade hand pre-flop you are essentially semi-bluffing.
You are saying there is a good chance that your opponents don’t have anything now so they will fold pre-flop but even if they call you have a chance of improving to the best hand.
Now semi bluff could be a very profitable concept and is a necessary one but you need to know that its profitability comes from the combined fold equity + chances of your hand improving to be the best.
If you take either of those elements out (ie saying you have no FE or your hand cant possibly improve to the best hand) then you’re essentially taking away from your profit.
Now back to the game in question .we said by raising the pot you are semi bluffing but the problem with this is that you have very little FE against your loose opponents which means your semi-bluff has reduced profitability because now you often have to improve to the best hand to win .so based on that you will see that its not a good idea to be building pots with out a made hand against loose opposition.
Now if the loose opposition turned tight post flop and would drop most hands post flop then by all means you have ideal game to be raising pots with Axs pre-flop etc.
The tighter they are postflop and the worse they play post flop the wider your range can be to raise pre-flop.

Ok, if we raised to something like 12 and led out with a c-bet, there's a decent chance we could take it down as their range tightens as you're given credit for a hand, but it narrows the field when we do hit which goes against:

Hectorjelly wrote:

with Axs preflop you want as many opponents as possible; hopefully with dominated flushdraws.

So is raising to 12 as a semi-bluff better than bloating with 7 hoping to hit? What about limping for a cheap flop?

Bandana boy wrote:

Totally agree
If opponenets are as loose as you say then bloating hoping to hit and get paid really shows weakness on your part.
It suggests you dont have the skill to build the pot after the flop hits so your hoping to get lucky in a raised pot ?
not good

It's a raised pot in the sense that a live staddle is a raised pot, I can build a pot, I'm just thinking it's gonna get a hell off alot bigger if it starts of at 60ish rather than 18, and we're more likely to get the odds to call if we hit a draw. And the other players are also more likely to call.

Gholimoli

When HJ says with Axs you want as many players in as possible he means pre-flop so that if you hit a draw or make your hand on the flop the chances of getting paid increases with there are more players in the hand and also you will get the required odds for drawing if needs be.
Post flop you should be happy to take a pot at any time with a draw because a draw is just a draw.

I don’t really know what you mean about getting odds to call.
By raising pre-flop you will not necessarily get better post flop!
By having more players in the hand you prob will.

You seem to thin that if you raise the pot pre flop then you will get better odds post flop for chasing draws.
This is not true at all.
Suppose you limp with two other limpers for $2 with Axs .the pot is now $6 and on the flop you have two of your suit.
Limper one bets $3 and limper two call the $3 so you have to call $3 to win $12 which means you are getting 4:1.

Now suppose you raise the pot to $6 preflop and get the same amount of ppl in the pot.
$18 in the pot and now player one bets $9 and player two calls.
Now you have to call $9 to win $36, which is, … you guessed it 4:1.
So you raising the pot do not make your profit here.(unless you can win the pot post flop with out hitting anything some times ).
But suppose if you didn’t raise you get 3 ppl in the hand instead of 2.
Now suppose the third person calls the $3 bet as well.
Now you have to call $3 to win $15 which is 5:1 .

phantom_lord

Gholimoli wrote:

When HJ says with Axs you want as many players in as possible he means pre-flop so that if you hit a draw or make your hand on the flop the chances of getting paid increases with there are more players in the hand and also you will get the required odds for drawing if needs be.
Post flop you should be happy to take a pot at any time with a draw because a draw is just a draw.

So, semi-bluffing by making a decent raise and c-bet should have a better expectation than building a pre-flop pot with a drawing hand?

I don’t really know what you mean about getting odds to call.
By raising pre-flop you will not necessarily get better post flop!
By having more players in the hand you prob will.

I understand that, but the thing is most of the players are terrible at bet sizing and have a 'standard' bet almost regardless of pot size, and are likely to bet 15-20 into a 60yoyo pot, which will offer us far more than 4/1.

Gholimoli

i think you are getting confused about the whole semi bluff thing !
i dont get this at all .
"So, semi-bluffing by making a decent raise and c-bet should have a better expectation than building a pre-flop pot with a drawing hand?"

and where are you playing that ppl bet the same size regardless of the pot.
adjusting bets in relation to the pot is prob the first thing ppl learn.
im not saying they learn it correctly but i dont think its as bad as you say.

phantom_lord

I just reread that, lol. I get what your saying now.


They don't bet the same regardless of bet size, but say if everyone calls for 7, so a 63yoyo pot, they're very unlikely to bet enough to price out draws.


So i should just limp then, since my hand has little semi-bluffing value in such a loose game.

Gholimoli

phantom_lord wrote:

So i should just limp then, since my hand has little semi-bluffing value in such a loose game.

correct.

RoundTower

Let's say you are in the Fitz and everyone has 1000 and you are on the button with A3s. This hand is really good multiway, it will be profitable playing with 5 opponents for €2 each. It will be even more profitable (though not 5 times more) playing with 5 opponents for €10 each. So if you get the chance to pop it to €10 here confident everyone will call, go ahead.

This doesn't apply if people only have €200 or if you will often be reraised.