Leinster School Senior Cup

KOSS [TGK]

In my many years of supporting schools rugby, I notice that the way the tourniment is played seems quite unfair in modern day rugby.
In the past, rugby was always seen as a gentlemans game, at that and upper class game. Times have moved on, people have moved forward, rugby now, in this day and age, is played by every walk of life, upper class, middle class, working class, foreigners, travellers, basicly its a more or less common sport.
I see that the Cup, leinster Schools Cup that is, is unfair. Totally unfair.
I think the cup should be played like a real tourniment, and stop schools like Blackrock, terenure and belvo claiming the cup every single year. Schools in section A and Section B have it a lot harder. Maby the big teams should be seeded in a group, or all the teams mixed up into groups to qualify for the main tourniment, to give every school a chance.
There are schools like Marian College, St. Conleths, De La Salle, CUS who have to qualify by winning 2 previous tourniments before they even make it to play a single match in the main cup and by that time, injury etc is a huge factor. it is a completly unfairly set up compitition, it needs to be revised, there are fare more rugby teams that could win the cup, but their not even given a chance.
Do people think its unfair, or should Blackrock win it for another 65 times before people realise its a one horsed race with the same schools every year?

Sangre

You have a point regarding matches but more competitive matches means practice.

The reason Blackrock win it all the times is not because of the setup, its because they deserve to win it nearly all the time. They have the numbers, the facilities, the coaches/trainers, the money and the reputation to go the whole way nearly every year.

KOSS [TGK]

I totally agree with you! You have just proven my point. More compeditive matches, that would mean teams like Newpark, Marian or CUS have a chance. It would also mean Rugby would have a bigger fan base amonsgt schools, even more so, school spirit would rise even higher and more respect would be given to school. The way it is, is like having England, france, New Zealand, Australia and Argintina in a group in the world cup all the time, then having all the other teams play eachother and only 2 can go through, what chance would Ireland ever have of winning the world cup then? There are teams that could beat blackrock out there and I personally know that, teams that are in with absolutly no chance because of the set up, The schools that win it every year only do so because they have every advantage their way. If a team from section A won the cup this year, then that team would truely be that all time champions of School Rugby because its never been done, and is practicly impossible. 1 bad game and your out, totaly unfair. Yes Blackrock have everything you say, but at the end of the day, its 15 vs 15, if it were fair and Blackrock were so good, they should have no problems beating off the minor teams and winning the cup, but that wouldnt happen, they want to keep it going the way its going to suit themselves, I would like to see the compitition open up into a fairly and proper tourniment, where every team has an equal chance, and then see who the true Champions are.

Macka

are you saying that a lot of teams in section A could survive with the big schools in section C? Cos.. thats ridiculous, the schools are divided into sections for a reason, granted theres usually one freak team from section A every year that does quite well but most A teams struggle against Section B opposition.
It is true that the fact that section A and B schools have to qualify for the C means that their teams are usually tired/injury ridden by the time they reach the C (It happened to my team, not a pleasant experience) but I still don't think that a fully fit A school (usually) would be any match for a C team. Its no secret that you send your child to a C school for rugby so their player pools are a lot bigger, more talent. They get better coaching then most and are much better drilled than schools in sections A and B. IMO it'd be better to see an amalgamation of sections A and B and then leave C to their own devices. I'm sick of seeing B teams annihilated in the C cup just to boost the number of matches in the competiion..

mikedragon32

Schools like DLSC (I'm a past pupil) and CUS were both in the top flight for a long time and slipped back. In fact DLSC won it twice in the 80's.

For them to slip back other schools must have come foward, and deservedly so. This is proof, surely, that teams can make it up.

In DLSC at least, Rugby fell victim to the need to get students into the school. They came from outside the area and therefore getting home from school became more of a priority for the majority of pupils than playing sports. The decline had already started by the time I finished in 1990 when you could see how few first years took up the sport.

I'm sure other schools have suffered similarly. It's a downward spiral once it starts.

thebaz

Bad idea - What would Blackrock or Michaels running up a 100 + points on Newpark or Conleths do to there morale ?
I remember myself playing against the likes of Conleths , and we were no cup winners , and putting up 60 + points on them , it wasnt much fun for anyone .(except maybe the tryscores ).
There are at least 3 or 4 tiers in schools rugby , and they needed to be seperated , Rugby is not like soccer where giant killing can occur .

besty

thebaz wrote:

Bad idea - What would Blackrock or Michaels running up a 100 + points on Newpark or Conleths do to there morale ?
I remember myself playing against the likes of Conleths , and we were no cup winners , and putting up 60 + points on them , it wasnt much fun for anyone .(except maybe the tryscores ).
There are at least 3 or 4 tiers in schools rugby , and they needed to be seperated , Rugby is not like soccer where giant killing can occur .

That's the bones of it. The simple fact is that the elite schools are on a different level than the schools the OP cited as having a chance within a tournament in a different structure. No matter how you set the School's Cup up, a team from the big 5 or 6 will always win it bar some freak year where a school like Castleknock or somewhere like that could be exceptional. It's a romantic notion that some hold from these smaller rugby schools that a different tournament structure could give them a shot at winning the cup. This simply is unrealistic. There is a need for seperating the tiers of schools cup matches as thebaz has said. If a school like Conleths or Marian is expecting to receive a hiding from a big school in a cup match, the match itself will become something that is dreaded and that will benefit nobody.

Tim Robbins

besty wrote:

That's the bones of it. The simple fact is that the elite schools are on a different level than the schools the OP cited as having a chance within a tournament in a different structure. No matter how you set the School's Cup up, a team from the big 5 or 6 will always win it bar some freak year where a school like Castleknock or somewhere like that could be exceptional. It's a romantic notion that some hold from these smaller rugby schools that a different tournament structure could give them a shot at winning the cup. This simply is unrealistic. There is a need for seperating the tiers of schools cup matches as thebaz has said. If a school like Conleths or Marian is expecting to receive a hiding from a big school in a cup match, the match itself will become something that is dreaded and that will benefit nobody.

What about amalgamating the youth teams and the school teams into a tournement? If the games are on saturday can't see why it can't happen. I'm sure Barnhall or Boyne would ruffel a few feathers.

KOSS [TGK]

Point made, point taken. However, hear me out, indeed section C schools will no doubt cream most of section A schools, but there are other ways in controlling the system. For instance, have section A and section B made into one section, or els into groups to qualify, the top seeded teems from section C are automaticly seeded in the Cup, all teams that loose their first match at the start of the Main cup (section C) are dropped into the pool for next years qualifiers, and the teams that came out of the pool start in section C next year. therefore, If schools are proving to be too weak, they will drop further into the development cup, leaving all the section A and B teams to qualify for the main cup? More schools will have a better chance and rugby will get more compeditive. I do know Marian College and Conleths are both favourites to win section A this year, and both have very strong teams, but with more matches against stronge oppositions in Section B would make them far better! No doubt.

Tim Robbins

Koss can you list the A,B and C schools?
I couldn't find it on the Leinster Rugby website?
I still reckon youths is where all the untapped talent is.
These lads actually want to play Rugby, not just playing it because their school wants them to. Their commitment and skills are very good and if you have a look at players to make it through to Leinster there's been more that have come from Barnhall than CUS for example. The Leinster Branch simply need to give youths more respect than it currently does.

damnyanks

I'd of preferred a group system. We spent the first few months playing "non competitive" games against the bigger schools (we were one too). Andd occasionlly we'd play soem rugby clubs u20 sides.

They were always taken very seriously but would of liked a league based system to measure it all

thebaz

i think this is one of the problems with rugby , that its difficult to add more competitive evenly balanced teams -- look at the world cup , whats the point Ireland playing Georgia or New Zealand playing Ivory Coast -- it just doesn't work .
When we played Conleths that time, they were meant to have a good team , usually our seconds played them .
Without knowing whats out there today , but i'd say Rocks 3rds would be a miss match for Conleths - i could well be wrong !
And a 100 zip contest in the SCT, is an embarassment, that will benefit no one , and just put people of the game altogether.

KOSS [TGK]

The sections change every single year. I would say its between Blackrock and Belvo this year in section C, CUS to claim section B and do nohing if anything in section C, and between Marian or Conleths who could manage an upset in section B, I am in a section C school, but as much as I love playing for my school and looking foward to the cup this year, I find Section A and b intresting each year because the teams are usualy evenly balanced, prepaired and although they mightend be as stron as the C's, its always garenteed excellent rugby! Who do you think will claim each cup, A, B and C? if you know nothing about A and B.. do some research!

Sangre

The bottom line is any section A or strong B team will slaughter the team C. This benefits no one. You can't develop skills against a side that 100% outclasses you.

League style wouldn't suit the SCT as there would be too many matches to play, most teams take half the year to pick and train a team. They're coming back from the summer and looking at new players. There is also the fact that these guys have a LC to think about as well.

Tim Robbins

KOSS [TGK] wrote:

if you know nothing about A and B.. do some research!

Sorry mate, LeinsterRugby.ie doesn't give the info so where are my supposed to get it?

KOSS [TGK]

It will be up on that site at around the Start of december (most likely the 22nd of November) untill then, you can ask people or go on google and search, or a good way to find out is www.ireland.com (Irish Times) and search the name of a school eg. Marian College, Blackrock etc, or section, Section A, B, C..

Actualy, now i mention them Marian College B team lost to Newbridge A 22-10 today, thats not a bad result for a B team section A vs A team section C...

KOSS [TGK]

Tim Robbins wrote:

Koss can you list the A,B and C schools?

Well this is as close as i could get them:

*SECTION C*

---

BELVEDERE COLLEGE
BLACKROCK COLLEGE
CASTLEKNOCK COLLEGE
CLONGOWES WOOD COLLEGE
ST MARYS COLLEGE
ST MICHAELS COLLEGE
TERENURE COLLEGE

*SECTION B*

---

CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY SCHOOL
CBC MONKSTOWN PARK
TEMPLEOGUE COLLEGE
GONZAGA COLLEGE
NEWBRIDGE COLLEGE
PRESENTATION COLLEGE BRAY
ST ANDREWS COLLEGE
HIGH SCHOOL
KILKENNY COLLEGE
THE KINGS HOSPITAL
ST ANDREWS COLLEGE
ST GERARDS SCHOOL
WESLEY COLLEGE
CISTERCIAN COLLEGE
KINGS HOSPITAL

*SECTION A*

---

DE LA SALLE COLLEGE CHURCHTOWN
GOOD COUNSEL COLLEGE
MARIAN COLLEGE
MOUNT TEMPLE SCHOOL
SANDFORD PARK SCHOOL
SKERRIES COMMUNITY COLLEGE
ST COLUMBAS COLLEGE
ST CONLETHS COLLEGE
ST PAULS COLLEGE
WILSONS HOSPITAL SCHOOL
ST PATS
NAAS CBS
ST MELS COLLEGE
NEWPARK

*SCHOOLS IN THE DEVELOPMENT SECTION OR WHO HAVE NOT YET BEEN PLACED IN A SECTION FOR 2006/2007.*

ARDSCOIL PHADRAIG
ASHBOURNE COMMUNITY SCHOOL
BRIDGETOWN VOCATIONAL COLLEGE
CASTLECOMER COMMUNITY SCHOOL
CBS CARLOW (ST MARYS ACADEMY)
CBS ENNISCORTHY
CBS NEW ROSS
CHANEL COLLEGE
COLAISTE BHRIDE
COLAISTE LORCAIN
COOLMINE COMMUNITY SCHOOL
CONFEY COMMUNITY COLLEGE
DE LA SALLE COLLEGE DUNDALK
DUNDALK GRAMMAR SCHOOL
DUNSHAUGHLIN COMMUNITY COLLEGE
EAST GLENDALOUGH SCHOOL
ENNISCORTHY VOCATIONAL COLLEGE
FINGAL COMMUNITY COLLEGE
FIRHOUSE COMMUNITY COLLEGE
GAELCHOLAISTE CHEATHARLACH
GOREY COMMUNITY SCHOOL
GREENDALE COMMUNITY SCHOOL
GREENHILLS COLLEGE
HEADFORT SCHOOL
KELLS COMMUNITY SCHOOL
LUCAN COMMUNITY COLLEGE
MEANSCOIL IOGNAID RIS NAAS CBS
NEW ROSS VOCATIONAL COLLEGE
O’CAROLAN COLLEGE
PORTMARNOCK COMMUNITY COLLEGE
SCOIL CHONGLAIS
SCOIL EOIN CBS
ST AIDANS COMMUNITY SCHOOL
ST BRENDANS COLLEGE
ST DAVIDS CO-ED SECONDARY SCHOOL
ST FINIANS COLLEGE
ST FINTANS HIGH SCHOOL
ST MARKS COMMUNITY SCHOOL
ST MARYS COLLEGE DUNDALK
ST MARYS DIOCESAN SCHOOL
ST OLIVERS COMMUNITY COLLEGE
TALLAGHT COMMUNITY SCHOOL
TULLAMORE COLLEGE
TULLOW COMMUNITY SCHOOL
WEXFORD CBS
WEXFORD VOCATIONAL COLLEGE

Goodluck2me

Tim Robbins wrote:

I still reckon youths is where all the untapped talent is.
These lads actually want to play Rugby, not just playing it because their school wants them to. Their commitment and skills are very good and if you have a look at players to make it through to Leinster there's been more that have come from Barnhall than CUS for example. The Leinster Branch simply need to give youths more respect than it currently does.

TBF, i couldnt disagree more with you here. i have played youths all my life and thought we were the sh1t. we won a provincial title in ulster etc. but when i moved up to UCD and started to play 20`s there the difference in class,skill levels and strength was incredible. the schools setups are way to organised for a local youth team to beat. you would need incredibly talanted and committed 12-15 year olds to compete and win an SCT style cup. i just dont think the market is out there for it. what i would say though is that there is definetly a pool of classy able players in the youths system but just not enough in one particular area to put a squad together. Examples such as Shane horgan, and more recently Sean O Brien from carlow was capped for leinster u-21s and ireland 21s at the age of 18. im pretty sure he has made his full senior leinster debut in the magners league. so there are players capable but its just not the norm unfortunatly.

gymrabbit

First and foremost, Section C school rugby players are the best underage rugby players in leinster(ireland maybe). Club players are not as good.

People have noted why Section C schools produce the best teams on the most regular basis. Reasons for this are many but a few are:

numbers of children playing the game
numbers of children coming from a preschool rugby background (clubs)
emphasis made by the school on sport, particularly rugby
interest of parents, teachers,past pupils, pupils themselves in sport/school
availability of training facilities - pitches, gyms etc.
good coaching

The reason why the same schools (section C) are constantly winning is because of their training methods. They train the most often, in the most efficient and intelligent matter. The coaches are usually more experienced then in other setups so their preparation is of the highest calibre. People play well because they train well.

From time to time, a school from Section B or A will come along and do well because they have an unusually gifted punch of players, they have a good season, good luck, a great coach etc. etc. But these are all reasons that come and go. A good long term setup insures section C schools are continously in the top flight.

OK, is the cup biased towards Section C? Well yes it is, it's the Section C cup to be honest. Teams from Section A and Section B can enter if they qualify as winners or runners up in their leagues. The cup is harsh. Being a knockout style tournament you can't afford to lose.

Don't forget, Section C schools have many friendly matches leading up towards the cup. And in rugby, unlike soccer, friendly matches are almost as competitive as cup matches due to the limitations of league/cup games. Section A and B teams are lucky in that they get a chance to prepare for the cup by competing in their own competitions. So when it comes to the cup they should be reasonably prepared. They may get injuries, all active teams do but they will have match experience.

I'd certainly be in favour of changing the Junior/Senior cup structure. I'd like to have it as a league rather than a cup to be honest. It's exciting of course in a knock out format but I think it's unfair for children to train as hard as they do for a competiton only to get one match. I'd like to see a 10 team league (2/3 teams from section B/A included) in which everyone plays everone once (home and away random or switching yearly) and the top 4 teams have a playoff for 1st - cup. Or 2 groups of 5 and top 2 teams go into semi finals.

jimi_t

Whoever is in favour of putting C League teams in a competitive context against the A League teams is completely off their rocker.

Those who are in favour of amalgamating the B and A leagues are also being unfair. Look at the B league (which have to qualify for the cup)


CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY SCHOOL
CBC MONKSTOWN PARK
GONZAGA COLLEGE
ST GERARDS SCHOOL

These are four schools who have all either won the JCT League or reached the Semis in the JCT and have reached the second round or even the quarters of the SCT in the last five years.

Granted, a strong Rock or Michaels team would easily put 80+ pts on a decent High School or Kings Hospital team, but the answer is not to cripple the more deserving teams by relegating them because of a few lame ducks.

And talking about the C League :rolleyes: , I remember playing St.Pats navan, our Junior Bs Vs. their under 16s team, about 4 years ago and hitting 120 odd points. Ditto mauling De la Salle and Newpark in the shield. It would be demoralising for both teams to be honest with you - there's no need for it.

Now, for those who are in favour of changing the structure, there already IS a League - played on the run up to Christmas - which allows the lower league teams to qualify and is a competitive title in itself. There are also Memorial Shield competitions at both JCT and SCT level which allow the lower teams to get a chance.

KOSS [TGK] wrote:

There are teams that could beat blackrock out there and I personally know that, teams that are in with absolutly no chance because of the set up, The schools that win it every year only do so because they have every advantage their way....1 bad game and your out, totaly unfair. Yes Blackrock have everything you say, but at the end of the day, its 15 vs 15, if it were fair and Blackrock were so good, they should have no problems beating off the minor teams and winning the cup, but that wouldnt happen, they want to keep it going the way its going to suit themselves, I would like to see the compitition open up into a fairly and proper tourniment, where every team has an equal chance, and then see who the true Champions are.

I'm sorry OP, but this is pure and unadulterated TRIPE. Are you trying to tell me Sandford Park or Marians could ever EVER match even a section B team? Rock win it every year for a reason - look at what the likes of Luke Fitzgerald, Vasya Artemiev et al are now doing, look at how many of their past pupils made Leinster or Ireland teams. I'm not happy with their attitude in relation to rugby, but they have some magnificent players and they deserve to win, regardless of any perceived arrogance. To use your own analogy of the soccer league, why should the likes of Chelsea have to play Cherry Orchard in order to qualify for a competition in which they are the bookies favourites from pre-season?

Simply put, the C League teams are "Rugby Schools" and deserve to win because they almost dedicate their entire existence to it. Look at the bigger picture and see where these schools are in areas that they might neglect in lieu of rugby: i.e. Academics, GAA, Hurling, Athletics, Soccer, Chess, Debating etc... Rugby isn't the be all and end all of secondary school life.

KOSS [TGK]

CBC Monkstown, De La Salle Churchtown and St Mary's College, take a bow: they are the only three schools in the last 25 years of the 20th century to win the Leinster Schools' Senior Cup when one excludes the `Big Three'. Between them Blackrock College (11), Terenure College (6) and Clongowes Wood College (4) have amassed 21 titles in that time and in the process cemented the belief that bridging the gap between the elite and the wannabes is a pipe- dream for most colleges, the success-rate politely described as sporadic. St Mary's victory in 1994, inspired by current international Denis Hickie, is the last time that the cartel was run out of town.

Churchtown was doubly blessed in the 1980's ('83, '85) while Monkstown's greatest rugby memory was inspired by a Bernard Maloney penalty which served to beat Castleknock in the 1976 final. Monkstown has competed in one decider in the interim, De La Salle also once since their triumphs while Mary's managed just one other final appearance in the last 25 years.

Of that trio only St Mary's has offered substance to the belief that they can regularly compete with the elite. St Michael's, Newbridge, Roscrea and Belvedere desperately cling to the coat tails of the Blackrock, Terenure, Clongowes axis and will possibly be permitted the occasional success. For the remainder ambition is measured in rounds.

The Leinster Branch acknowledged the anomaly by introducing a league competition, shorn of the top schools to facilitate the `weaker colleges' in a genuine quest for silverware. There is now three distinctive levels (possibly four): Section A, 16/17 schools in Section B and finally the top six or seven schools.

While the number of new schools popping up in Section A is to the credit of the IRFU and Leinster Branch, there is a growing need to address the widening gap in standards which threatens to leave a tiny minority on a plateau above the rest. This is hardly conducive to developing the schools rugby scene as a vibrant and competitive nursery for future national senior teams. One or possibly two seriously competitive outings per campaign should hardly be the staple diet of champions.

The problem is not endemic to Leinster: the domination by CBC Cork, PBC Cork and to a lesser extent Crescent College Comprehensive, Limerick in Munster is equally pronounced. Only two other colleges, St Munchin's (1982) and Rockwell (1985) have tasted victory in the senior cup since 1975. Methody aside, Ulster offers greater breadth in terms of winners, their primary concern should be trying to persuade more catholic schools to embrace the competition.

The Connacht Branch has made decent strides to open the parameters of what was traditionally a three-college dispute and the progress made is encouraging. There is a pressing need not only to address the rules governing the schools game to foster skills development but to re-examine the structure of the provincial competitions.

The IRFU need to pump serious finance into the middle order schools to make them more competitive or perhaps more practically remove the elite from the four provincial competitions: six from Leinster, four from Munster, three from Ulster and a combined Connacht Schools team. Divide the 14 teams into two groups playing 12 games home and away (at provincial grounds) followed by semi-finals and finals: enticing a sponsor for a national competition should not prove difficult. Blackrock College against Pres Cork in Donnybrook under lights, Methody against Clongowes at Ravenhill . . . the prospect is mouth-watering.

thebaz

You seam dead set on changing an already successfull competetion , not sure expanding it and making it more competive is what is required ,they are still only 17 and 18 olds, and i think there is eneogh competition and pressure as it is, for this age group , better off concentrating on improving skill levels than more competetion !

BTW i think you forgot belvedere

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Sangre

There is also facts these guys have a LC to sit as well.

madds

goodluck2me wrote:

TBF, i couldnt disagree more with you here. i have played youths all my life and thought we were the sh1t. we won a provincial title in ulster etc. but when i moved up to UCD and started to play 20`s there the difference in class,skill levels and strength was incredible. the schools setups are way to organised for a local youth team to beat. you would need incredibly talanted and committed 12-15 year olds to compete and win an SCT style cup. i just dont think the market is out there for it. what i would say though is that there is definetly a pool of classy able players in the youths system but just not enough in one particular area to put a squad together. Examples such as Shane horgan, and more recently Sean O Brien from carlow was capped for leinster u-21s and ireland 21s at the age of 18. im pretty sure he has made his full senior leinster debut in the magners league. so there are players capable but its just not the norm unfortunatly.

7 players from Barnhall in the recent Leinster Youths team which played a Development squad from Wales. There's a load of talent out there in Youths setup at club level, and we'll begin to see more of it in the near future.

darraghw

KOSS [TGK] wrote:

CBC Monkstown, De La Salle Churchtown and St Mary's College, take a bow: they are the only three schools in the last 25 years of the 20th century to win the Leinster Schools' Senior Cup when one excludes the `Big Three'. Between them Blackrock College (11), Terenure College (6) and Clongowes Wood College (4) have amassed 21 titles in that time

Belvedere desperately cling to the coat tails of the Blackrock, Terenure, Clongowes axis and will possibly be permitted the occasional success. For the remainder ambition is measured in rounds.

Now where did u get this from? Belvedere are the second most succesful team behind blackrock in junior and senior titles. In the 2005 cup they won both, and consistently reach the semi-final/final.

Downtime

He does mention the last 25 years of the 20th century. Much of Belvederes success in the Juior Cup came pre 1960's.

Overall in the history of both competitions combined Belvedere are indeed the second most successful team behind 'Rock.

damnyanks

Thought terenure won it more then belv

Downtime

I think (think) that Terenure have 8 Junior and 11 Senior while Belvo have 16 Junior and 8 Senior

damnyanks

sorry thought it was just senior

KOSS [TGK]

terenure have 10 titles, and belvo 9, with castleknock just behind on 8.. and blackrock sitting on.. well yes.. 65.

KOSS [TGK]

there has bee only 16 schools that have won the tourniment over the last 119 yers, in whice 65 belong to rock, so in other words there has been 54 titles between only 15 schools. dosnt sound like progress to me, the system needs to be changed slightly, rugby is one of the fastest growing sports amongst youth in this country, and the IRFU should maby be kind and help rugby schools in section A and B that need a boost, to raise standards, or include more schools in the cup as theres just a few schools that are running away with it every year. for now its fine, 10 years time... it will most defiantly need to change

damnyanks

a lot of schools dont have the numbers or facilities to compete with section c schools.

It's something like 400 pupils per year in blackrock? The majority of them will play rugby at some point in their education.

Sangre

More like 180 per year but any Cup team will also draw on the best from the year below, of course numbers aren't everything. Marys have about 70 a year and usually field a strong enough team.

No matter how much you tweak the cup set out you're never going to change the fact Rock has 150 years of experience which is clearly evident in the setup, facilities, training, coaching and players who attend the schoo.

Downtime

Sangre wrote:

No matter how much you tweak the cup set out you're never going to change the fact Rock has 150 years of experience which is clearly evident in the setup, facilities, training, coaching and players who attend the schoo.

The same goes for the bigger schools like Terenure, Marys, Clongowes and Belvo all of whom have excellent facilities and coaching setups. This is something which the smaller schools can't compete with, which is a pity, but they are still able to spring a few surprises which is great. It is good to see the Section A of the Cup so fiercly contested and this can only be for the betterment of the competition.

I am unsure about 'Rocks 150 years of experince since they are only 146 years old and rugby didn't start on day 1

KOSS [TGK]

well lets take Marrian College and Saint Conleths for example, bot private schools, bot have large facilities, Marian have i think 500 pupils, Conleths 350. Marian have IRFU coaches, Landsdowne road is their home pitch and they have always dominated section A and have sprang up into section C a few times, now if the IRFU decided to change the compitition, the school would be in a more compeditive and driven mode, and rugby would grow, money should be given by the IRFU to section B and A schools, the stronger ones anyway, and over a long period of time, standards would grow.

Blackrock have 140 odd years experiance, put it this way, Italy dont have many years experiance in Rugby yet already after a few years you can see them getting a lot better... because they were given a chance, money was pumped in2 Italian rugby, same can be said about other nations... for some reason Rugby has always tried to be kept to the Upper class of society... it should be let go now, its better off

andyman

I would like to add my opinion to this thread.

It is my opinion that the SCT is becoming more competitive as the years go by. Even if you get Rock winning it every year. I watch this Cup on Setanta every year with huge interest as a cousin of mine plays for the Presentation College Bray team.

But, although you have clear favourites like Terenure, Rock, Belvedere, Michaels etc. You must also remember that these are the same teams that would've contested in the JCT 3 years ago. In this case, you would have to include Pres Bray in the mix too as they were beaten in the JCT Final 3 years ago. Having watched the match in person, they were robbed if I'm honest. So Pres really do have the potential to challenge for the Cup this season as do many of the Section B Teams

Also, CBS Kilkenny should really be in the Development Schools because they have beaten probably 3 quarters of the schools in that list and also reached the Leinster Shield Final last year, losing by 2 points to Tallaght CC. CBS also have 1 Leinster Panelist and 1 Leinster A Panelist which shows that their players have the quality to challenge Section A Teams. We also lost narrowly (VERY suprisingly) to Clongowes a couple of years ago, and CBS were nowhere near as good then than they are now.

damnyanks

marian isn't a private school is it? It wasn't back in the day

Sangre

andyman wrote:

I would like to add my opinion to this thread.

It is my opinion that the SCT is becoming more competitive as the years go by. Even if you get Rock winning it every year. I watch this Cup on Setanta every year with huge interest as a cousin of mine plays for the Presentation College Bray team.

But, although you have clear favourites like Terenure, Rock, Belvedere, Michaels etc. You must also remember that these are the same teams that would've contested in the JCT 3 years ago. In this case, you would have to include Pres Bray in the mix too as they were beaten in the JCT Final 3 years ago. Having watched the match in person, they were robbed if I'm honest. So Pres really do have the potential to challenge for the Cup this season as do many of the Section B Teams

Also, CBS Kilkenny should really be in the Development Schools because they have beaten probably 3 quarters of the schools in that list and also reached the Leinster Shield Final last year, losing by 2 points to Tallaght CC. CBS also have 1 Leinster Panelist and 1 Leinster A Panelist which shows that their players have the quality to challenge Section A Teams. We also lost narrowly (VERY suprisingly) to Clongowes a couple of years ago, and CBS were nowhere near as good then than they are now.

Clongowes almost certainly put out a 2nd string team, no point risking players against 'easy win' games. Well, this is the case in 90% of matches played against those outside section C.

darraghw

andyman wrote:

So Pres really do have the potential to challenge for the Cup this season as do many of the Section B Teams

Isn't that the team that had that huge number 8 jay harris? That left the school and went (with a little persuasion) to blackrock?

I cant really see them being a threat.

As far as i know this year no team has been constantly winning apart from clongows?

Het-Field

Currently the seeding system is the best it could possibly be. Its pointless thinking that more competitive games is what is necessary. How Many people will come out to Coolmine RFC on a wet January afternoon to watch Marian College take on Ard Scoil Ris. St Marys College have 400 pupils and have one two senior cups and got to one other final in the past 12 years. Now thats a school punching above its weight.

What the IRFU do is generate revenue for all the schools by having the big teams pair off at the sharper end of the competition. Most of the schools in the lower sections have sporting commitments elsewhere. School like Wesley, Andrews, High School have hockey commitmnet, while many others put more time and energy, and recieve more funding from the GAA. Its only right and proper that the schools who put all their eggs in one basket reap the be3nefits

SpAcEd OuT

[QUOTE='KOSS [TGK] St Mary's victory in 1994, inspired by current international Denis Hickie, is the last time that the cartel was run out of town. [/QUOTE]

Marys won the cup again in 2002

Het-Field

And got to the final in 2003. Punching above their weight is an understatement

gymrabbit

I don't know why people are so concerned about numbers of students in 6th year. The schools bit large numbers of students - Belevedere, Blackrock etc. have about loads of teams composed of 4th, 5th and 6th years. The have a panel of maybe 40 players that are training to get onto the final 22, usually the 22 is fairly obvious from the outset with the exception of a couple of positions /shape of the bench.

The cup isn't a gruelling league fought over many months which require schools to rely on big pools of players to win ala chelsea. It's a cup and it's unusal for the 15 that went out on the field in the first round not to be exactly the same as the 15 that lift the cup with perhaps a switch or two.

thebaz

gymrabbit wrote:

I don't know why people are so concerned about numbers of students in 6th year. The schools bit large numbers of students - Belevedere, Blackrock etc. have about loads of teams composed of 4th, 5th and 6th years. The have a panel of maybe 40 players that are training to get onto the final 22, usually the 22 is fairly obvious from the outset with the exception of a couple of positions /shape of the bench.

The cup isn't a gruelling league fought over many months which require schools to rely on big pools of players to win ala chelsea. It's a cup and it's unusal for the 15 that went out on the field in the first round not to be exactly the same as the 15 that lift the cup with perhaps a switch or two.

Of course numbers are important , every year Rock will challenge for the cup, every year Rock will have quality in every position, like the All Blacks . I went to a middle ranking schools, and in our year we had a strong team for our school, but it was made up of 11 quality players and 4 pedestrians . With injuries we were down to 9 quality players , but still this was good , as the average SCT was usually made up 50 -50 between quality / and statues. Its the same in football with Brazil , the size of there footbal population means Ireland realistically can never compete -- but agree with others , fair play to Marys , they really do well , they must have a great coaching setup , as do Clongowes , Michaels , Belvo and Rock .

KOSS [TGK]

Yes obviously fair play to Marys, they have exellent coaching (because the money is there ) Ok, so in light of respect, the way its set up at the present moment is pretty stable, good contest. But I would like to see it built into a monster, take a look in Australia, NZ and south africa, or even in a way england... Then look at ours. Their RFU's invest in normal schools and rugby became a must win sport. Its like, if you win the senior cup, your school becomes great, and people go to it, no matter what the academic standard is (even though there usualy very high lol) But, in saying all that, my point of view would be to enlarge the compitition, invest in schools and Irish schools rugby will be one of the best in the world, better than it currently is. By the way, i think Ireland have a great chance making it to the final of the WC07, great rugby played here!

KOSS [TGK]

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

Marys won the cup again in 2002

good lad, i actualy forgot, 3-0. or was that the semi! marys are actualy one of our good rivals, come up with a good team now and then

poobum

andyman wrote:

I
But, although you have clear favourites like Terenure, Rock, Belvedere, Michaels etc. You must also remember that these are the same teams that would've contested in the JCT 3 years ago. In this case, you would have to include Pres Bray in the mix too as they were beaten in the JCT Final 3 years ago. Having watched the match in person, they were robbed if I'm honest. So Pres really do have the potential to challenge for the Cup this season as do many of the Section B Teams

jct and sct are in my opinion completly different! its rare(does happen but still rare) that a great winning jct team means 3 years later there will be a winning sct team! once you hit senior level...it realy all changes! half terenure(my schools) team for the jct when i was in third...alot of them never even got benched for the sct! people on the 3rds in juniors ended up starting on sct, i think one or 2 even ended up on leinster uner-19s (and im sure many colleges have same situation!) juniors...its a different game! things like line outs are basically which team has tallest boy, biggest and fastest(through genes in alot of cases nothing to do with training) nd im not saying there arent tactics, far from it! just that they will be different! they wont have the same moves or anything! but in juniors, thats when people have still not developed in most cases! so tallest boy in juniors mite be only average in seniors! the game is totaly different!
i mean look at even athlecthics! in senior levels in leinster belvo completly dominate overall! but in juniors...they dont! they have competition there!! its the same in rugby! alot of junior teams can compete from everywhere but then the training, hitting gym, tactics etc kick in properly! and then it becomes a different game!
as in athlethics the teams with the best coaching and who basically work the hardest are the competing school in reality! schools like highschool and templeogue etc...they only start training in september! as oppose to most of the "big 6" who dont stop from the last season! mabey with a 2 week break or so but thats the most! they are already on a back foot! they wont have the same conditioning! the team will be less adjusted to echother...and it realy shows up the dedicated! u know the guy willing to get up early duringthe summer n train his ass off...well hes a guy whos going to give it his all in a match! work through the fatigue! and alot of schools dont have deacent gyms! so aside from odd person majority of there players wont have same strength and size of a team that does! and then there are some schools who train twice a week, and competing with some that train 5 times a week! this is putting them at a total dis-advantage! there are so many affecting factors! its not just about the money! obiously money will give a gym etc...but if teams cant even get the idea of training early and often and hard...then aside from a freak team...they realy nvr will be able to compete with the "big 6"

KOSS [TGK]

Well section A is at its final, Skerries SC beat Marian College 12-10, then De La Salle 11 - 9 and onto the finals against a strong Mount Temple side, i acualy havnt heard who won yet, any info?

Downtime

KOSS [TGK] wrote:

good lad, i actualy forgot, 3-0. or was that the semi! marys are actualy one of our good rivals, come up with a good team now and then

10-06 Against Belvo and then the were beaten by Terenure 3- 0 the following year

KOSS [TGK]

Downtime wrote:

10-06 Against Belvo and then the were beaten by Terenure 3- 0 the following year

Yeah ill look in the book in the future, still tough, Kilkenny for the cup this year!