Grain storage and brew kettle question

beardybrewer

Two part question, first should be simple. I'm looking for a somewhat air-tight large container for my grains. The container should preferably be 30-40l as I don't order specialty grains from the UK all that often and I want them to last as its costs me a fortune. I think B&Q (which we don't have... yet) has painters buckets which would have a pretty tight seal. Any ideas on what to get? Where to get it?

Now the other thing is I was wondering about Dublin while I was there on the long weekend and came across some of the pound shops on Talbot and found a large 20l pot for €15. It was paper-thin, but I was wondering if it would be good enough? I would like to get a proper kettle one day like those on MoreBeer.com. Don't know if my gas cooker could heat that as I see there are burners that seem to accompany the kettles. On the other hand most of the UK shops seem to sell a plastic bucket with an element. Hop and Grape has a 10 gal boiler with thermostat and heating element for £80. This also has a filter and a tap. I wonder why the electric boilers aren't done in the states... are they expensive to run or maybe its just the 230v thing makes it more practical. What do you guys think is most appropriate? Should I go cheap, go all out gas, or all out electric?

oblivious

Originally I got one of those pots, there ok but make sure it made form stainless steal as aluminium can supposable affect the taste of the beer. I ended up get the Bruheat Electrim Mashing Bin (89 euro) from grape and grain, here is the link http://www.grapengraindublin.com/

I find it very good and you can brew out side, which can prevent potential problems with the better half.

bigears

I think the main reason the US sites sell the kettles with a propane burner is speed of boiling. This means you need to brew outside though.

I use an aluminium pot (approx 12 litres) for mini mashes and find it fine, I use it on a gas hob in the kitchen and it heats up pretty quickly, but I'm not sure how effective it would be for 30 litres. I'm shortly moving to a full boil and I plan to use a 25 litre electric water heater (tea urn style, like a Burco).

There are many rumours about aluminium and off-flavours/aluminium and alzheimers etc. but these have all been disproven so I wouldn't worry about that. You could try looking in the Asian Food Stores as I imagine they will be a good source for bigger pots.

I've yet to hear bad reports about the plastic mashing bins so that's an option as oblivious stated.

beardybrewer

oblivious wrote:

I ended up get the Bruheat Electrim Mashing Bin (89 euro) from grape and grain

I'm certainly starting to lean towards an electric and am very ready to do a full boil and stop wasting hops. What’s the deal with the RITCHIE MASHING & SPARGING BAG? Does the Ritchie bag somehow suspend the mesh bag in the upper part of the boiler to keep it away from the element? How often do you need the replace the Ritchie bag?

Do you boil hops loose or in a bag?

Also, for the steeping around the 150-160 C mark is the thermostat capable of maintaining this temp or is it for simply boiling only?

guildofevil

I use a sheet of muslin, held in place with a bungee cord, to create a large grain bag in the top of the boiler. You have to manually ensure that the muslin won't come into contact with the element, but it's not difficult.

I change the muslin whenever I think it has become a bit tatty. Muslin is cheap.

When using it as a boiler, I throw the hops directly into the kettle, without a hop bag, but then I have a hop strainer fitted, so the spigot won't get clogged with hops.

Hop strainer: http://www.hopshopuk.com/cgi-bin/browse-no-frames.cgi?view=item&item=eq078b&session=91029972

Steeping at 150-160 C? I'll thank you to kindly obey the laws of physics and stop steeping at impossible temperatures.

I don't find that the thermostat is really any good at maintaining the temperature of the mash. I find that, if placed on a Styrofoam base, the mash will naturally maintain the desired temperature for 15 to 20 minutes. I then add heat for 5 to 8 minutes and it's good for another 15 to 20.

It's kind of an awkward system for mashing, but you can certainly produce some good beers with it, once you get used to it. As a boiler it is great.

In time, I plan to use an insulated mash tun, like this one http://cgi.ebay.ie/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=150037319783&rd=1&rd=1

bigears

Steeping at 150-160 C? I'll thank you to kindly obey the laws of physics and stop steeping at impossible temperatures.

This is probably based on a US source. 150-160 F is ideal for steeping (65 to 71 C - although you normally hear to keep below 70 as temps above this can halt conversion)

beardybrewer

Thanks bigears, I was thinking fahrenheit but typed celcius. Damned metric system, still getting used to it. So the thermostat is really to bring the water to a boil and then maintain a rolling boil? So far I've just been following Papizan's suggestion to just steep for the 30-40 minutes it takes to bring the water to a boil and not worry (of course). I might just continue this practice with the boiler.

Did you do any research regarding Bruheat vs. Electrim vs. Hop and Grape's boiler? H&G seems pretty confident their thermostat will maintain a good mashing temp. How long have you had it?

Also, anyone have any suggestions for grain storage? What do you guys do?

guildofevil

Mine's an Electrim bin and an old one at that, so maybe the thermostats on the newer ones are better, but I found it impossible to get the setting right to maintain a constant mashing temperature. Whenever I tried, I ended up with either a slowly rising temperature, or having to manually add heat to keep the temperature up.

One tip for using one of these bins, BTW. Keep the element clean. A build-up of lime scale can cause the element to overheat and cut out. It then has to cool down a bit before it will switch on again. There is nothing quite as infuriating as trying to boil your wort, while the boiler takes a ten minute rest every twenty minutes. :mad:

Cheap vinegar and a washing up sponge will take any lime scale build-up right off the element.

oblivious

Thank you for that tip guildofevil, mine is starting to build up and I think the protein from the wort is added to the problem.

Hendrixcat

I'm an insulated cooler mash tun fan as I stated in the last debate we had on this subject. I've used it a number of times since and then and have the method down. It's really very easy and sounds far more straight forward than the bru heat boiler methods mentioned on the thread. I'll admit I have never used a bru heat like boiler but it was this manner of mashing that led me to believe that mashing was so difficult when I was first reading up about it a few years ago. Then I came across the cooler method and it all seemed straight forward.

I bought a 33 litre stainless steel pot on e bay for about 50 quid a while back and it does the job well. It fits across two gas burners on my hob and so doesn't take as long to boil as I thought it would.

I've been reading up on hop chemistry and it appears that a decent rolling boil with the hops loose in the kettle is essential for decent alpha acid isomerisation and bittering. It makes for a messy wort and can result in harsh tannin extraction but I've yet to notice any the finished product.

oblivious

I use an insulated cooler also, but I do find I have to up with some hot water to keep the temp around 60 c. I wonder if the more commercial ones are have better insulation?

It more than just temp that will effect tannin extraction, mostly it’s to do a combination of wrong water ph, temp and volume for mashing/sparging. I strain my first and second running through a strainer even though I used a grain bag to make sure there are no husks getting in to the boil.

A good role boil will help clean your beer. Some brewers will boil for 90 minutes help even more.

bigears

My SS electric boiler has a rusty element which is why I haven't used it yet. As an alternative to replacing the element is there a suitable way to remove the rust?

beardybrewer

newkie wrote:

Also, anyone have any suggestions for grain storage? What do you guys do?

Hey, I see I made a rookie mistake of asking a boring question along with a more interesting one. But does anyone want to take a stab at this? Also, where are you guys getting most of your grains? So far I'm importing them from the UK at great expense (just specialty grains) so storage is a concern to keep them fresh.

Hendrixcat

I just keep my grain bagged securely and placed in a plastic box in a coolish dark place. You're right, that is dull.

bigears

Ditto.

As far as buying grain you have two main options. Grape n Grain sell 3kg bags for about €9. IIRC guild said the 25KG bags are about €50. The downside is they will only deliver within Dublin (€5 per order) but if you're going to be up you can arrange with them to meet you somewhere.

As you said ordering grain from the UK is expensive, if you're going to be paying for postage you could order a lot at once as Hop and Grape will send up to 30KG by courier for GBP 17. At this level you can order a 25KG bag of pale malt plus 5KG of various specialty grain - now that would last you a long time unless you're all grain brewing very regularly. If you order a lot of specialty grain this would be worth your while. If you tend to stick with pale malt and crystal then GnG will be a better bet. I find if you need anything like Chocolate Malt, Caramel Malts in general and anything out of the ordinary then H&G or HopShop will most likely have what you need.

beardybrewer

Thanks for the info guys. I looked up my last order from Hop and Grape, it was 35kg and carriage cost £44.

The limerick homebrew store has most of what i need. He's pretty amiable to ordering things not shown so I might work with him and see what he can do. Its just specialty grains of which there are so many at hop and grape to drool over and I just keep adding to the cart.

bigears

Thanks for the info guys. I looked up my last order from Hop and Grape, it was 35kg and carriage cost £44.

Ouch! Keep it under 30kg!

beardybrewer

bigears wrote:

Ouch! Keep it under 30kg!

I also priced the order without several kits and they quoted me £30.00 for 24kg. I guess their shipping prices has gone up. When was your last order? I suppose the dimensions can also play a role in the cost.

bigears

Hi Newkie,

Their prices for carriage have actually dropped recently as they have a new deal with their courier.

It used to be £30 for up to 25kg - their new price is £17 for up to 30kg - a big improvement if you take advantage of the weight limit and bulk up your order.

I have an immersion chiller, some grain and bits & bobs on order at the moment.

Edit: If you are ordering kit beers I have previously tried the Brupaks kits. These are basically DME with hop & grain pellets which you soak and add to the fermenter - as kits go these are regarded as about the best out there and I was happy with two I tried.

beardybrewer

Did you get the H&G chiller? I got one too, works great! Especially now that the tap water is like ice water.

I've tried a variety of kits at this stage but I'm starting to use plain LME/DME and formulate my own recipes with BeerSmith. Its also very practical as I can get John Bull/Munton's from Limerick Homebrew with his fixed carriage charge. I've sampled a lot of the Brewferm line and really liked their Triple.

bigears

It should arrive in the next few days - looking forward to trying it out.

Ceddy

bigears wrote:

My SS electric boiler has a rusty element which is why I haven't used it yet. As an alternative to replacing the element is there a suitable way to remove the rust?

Did you store this element in your Shed ? Storing it in a more drier environment should prevent it from rusting.

If you can remove it from the vessel clean it with a scouring pad (green) not brillo as it will do more damage than good. When finished dry off and submerge in an acid based solution. As far as I remember vinegar should protect it from rusting again until you use it again.

bigears

Hi Ceddy,

The boiler was given to me recently but had been stored in a shed for years, hence the rust. I boiled a little citric acid solution just to clean it up a bit but I think the rust is beyond scouring to be honest.



I think it will need replacing, I just need to figure out where to get the same element.

oblivious

Hop and grape have replacement elements that will fit Bruheat boilers and Electrim boilers. What type of boiler do you have?

bigears

Thanks for the tip.

I have feeling they won't fit my boiler. The nameplate on the boiler has faded over time - it's probably 20 years old. It's a tea urn style boiler (like a Burco or Swan)



The elements for the Bruheat/Electrim boilers seem to be side mounted whereby the element on my boiler is bottom mounted. I guess what I really need to find is a catering supplier as you typically see these in canteens/kitchens.

noby

Looks similair. 3kW on e-bay for about €45

Link

bigears

That does look similar.

I didn't think it would cost that much. Still, I suppose it's cheaper than buying an electrim/bruheat and I'd like to get the stainless boiler working. I might send him an email and ask a few questions.

A question for the "all grain/full boil" guys - as this is a 5 gallon boiler I'm guessing I will end up with around 19/20 litres after the boil - does that sound right?

noby

That was just one I came across. I'm sure with a bit of searching you might get something cheaper. Maybe if you bring the element to your local hardware merchant they might have something.

guildofevil

Bigears. There is an electrical parts shop on Parnell Square that should be able to sort you out. They do parts for cookers, etc. so this should be right up their alley.

I went down there with the old element from my Electrim Boiler and got a 2.4Kw one for less than the new 1.8Kw, that is supposed to go into it would have set me back, even without shipping from the UK.

I was thinking of popping down to them this afternoon anyway, to enquire about thermostats, so I'll ask them if they can help you out.

When I do a boil with my Electrim boiler, I always end up having to top it up a little to get to the 23 litre mark, so yes, 19 or 20 litres would be about right, after the boil.

guildofevil

I just got back from the parts centre and it's back to the internet with you, Bigears. They can get it for you, but you are looking at about €70.

bigears

There is an electrical parts shop on Parnell Square that should be able to sort you out. They do parts for cookers, etc. so this should be right up their alley.

Ah - you mentioned this before, I'd forgotten all about it...

just got back from the parts centre and it's back to the internet with you, Bigears. They can get it for you, but you are looking at about €70.

Yikes.

When I do a boil with my Electrim boiler, I always end up having to top it up a little to get to the 23 litre mark, so yes, 19 or 20 litres would be about right, after the boil.

So do you top up with boiling water near the end of the boil? Do you bother with factoring that in to your grain/hop additions or is it too insignificant to worry about?

guildofevil

I actually top up with cold water, after I have chilled down the wort and pitched the yeast. It helps aerate the wort, as a side benefit.

I know some people will scream about infection danger, but they have been reading too many American brewing boards. I have been doing this for years, with no trouble.

The reduced volume is due to boil-off, probably caused by the fact that my element is 2.4Kw, when it is supposed to be 1.8Kw. It wouldn't happen if I had just a little more elbow room in my boiler, as then I could start out with a little more wort without the danger of boiling over.

I don't make any adjustments in my calculations to compensate for this, but then I am used to brewing with my system and have a tendency to rely more on my own brewbook than any external tool or recipe. I mean, how do I know if what I think of as 40 IBU is actually 40 IBU? It's really just what my system spits out if I calculate a beer at 40 IBU.

bigears

I found a company in Dublin who stock the element for €38 plus VAT so I'll probably get it off them. If it's the wrong element it's easier to return it to them than messing about on ebay...

bigears

I'm slowly building up my full boil equipment.

I should have the element by the end of the week. €45.98 all in.

My immersion chiller arrived from Hop & Grape and it's.. um... small :rolleyes: ah well, I'm sure it still works fine.

beardybrewer

bigears wrote:

My immersion chiller arrived from Hop & Grape and it's.. um... small :rolleyes: ah well, I'm sure it still works fine.

Maybe we should teach ourselves how to build our own counterflow chiller. There are probably a load of DIY pages on this. I wonder how cheaply we could manage it?

My H&G immersion chiller is affecting my boiler choice. I had, after much agony and pertering of John at H&G with questions, decided to go with the H&G 10gal twin element boiler with [Electrim] thermostat. However, it just occured to be yesterday that the immersion won't reach down to the wort if I decide to use it for a 5gal batch. His response was to cut it at the elbows and suspend it with a string.

I'm thinking I may just go with an Electrim 5gal boiler, although I liked the idea of maybe doing a larger batch the odd time (and I'll need to buy a hop filter seperately). Not sure if I should re-evaluate my chiller as I just got it a few months ago. But I am concerned about its effectiveness of cooling a full boil in summer when the tap water warms up.

bigears

I bought some copper pipe to build a manifold for a cooler box mashtun. copper is now very expensive. between the cost of the copper, the coolbox (even though it's a cheapo Argos job at 20 euro) and the WD tap I won't save much on buying the ready made mashtun. Maybe the CF chiller would work out comparatively cheap. I would have concerns about the ease of sanitisation with a CF chiller though.

noby

I just couldn't justify the money.
I checked Hop and Grape, and their immersion chiller is listed at £27.50 - over forty euro, before shipping. I willl be getting (by the end of the week, I hope) my copper locally for €2 + vat/metre. That's about €15 for 20 feet.

bigears

I think I should have shopped where you did noby - maybe I was paying a 'Dublin premium' :rolleyes:

You'll probably make a good saving compared to buying a chiller, personally I would be afraid of making a hash of it. H&G's one was cheaper than most of the sites I looked at - the typical price was closer to £40, maybe they were bigger ones.

noby

I'm not saying I won't make a hash of it, but I'll give it a go. 6' of my garden hose, and a couple of fittings, it should still be under 20 euro.

Looking at the price of CFCs, maybe I should try making one of them and selling it.

beardybrewer

noby, keep us updated (and maybe take a few pics along the way). This is something I'd definitely be interested in next summer if the immersion can't handle it. How do you bend the copper? And I'm not sure I understand the fittings, is it a typical 'Y' fitting with the copper jammed in one output and the garden hose attached to the other? Or is it a special fitting?

noby

Well first I'm gonna tackle an immersion chiller. One step at a time.

Hendrixcat

I bought the same wort chilller from hop and grape and was also underwhelmed by it's size. A the moment, with the low water temperatures, it does make a fairly cold, dense little element to put in the wort and does the trick. Like some of you I'm concerned about the summer when the ambient water temps go up. When I ordered is I was anticipating something like what I saw in Palmer's homebrew book. In the paper addition of the book he takes you through an all grain boil with diagrams. The wort chiller he uses in the pictures is massive. It appears to have a diameter something similar to the kettle he boils in. I'd say it's home made and makes short work of cooling even the largest volume of wort. Something to consider making for oneself, methinks.

guildofevil

You'll get it done. You may use some colourful language during the construction, but when push comes to shove, it's not that complex a device. If I managed to build an ugly but effective immersion chiller, anyone can. Where expertise is lacking, gaffa tape takes over.