strife in labour?

constitutionus

just looking at the politics.ie site and apparenty theres a rift growing between labour youth and the party propper. the former, not being too happy with the alliance with FG, passed a motion not to deliver any promotional material mentioning FG when touting for labour candidates and at the labour youth question and answers session at their confrence pat was quizzed on weather or not the removal of US troops from shannon airport would form part of the programme for government. pat said no leading someone to point out from the floor that its party policy and was passed at the last motion based confrence. pat replied limply that that may be the case but it wasnt his opinion and that he'd be asking for inspections instead.

so could this be the begining of the end for pat? alot of people in FF would prefer getting in the sack with labour than the PDs particularly if the numbers stack up. and an equal number in labour dont like FG so how much would it take to get em to drop pat, especially when some FFers are talking about what ministries and posts potential labour bedfellows would get.

one things for sure, with the youth wing representing the future of the party this level of disquiet cant be good for the party. ive never heard this type of thing coming from the other parties so what do you reckon?

Tricity Bendix

Labour Youth and Pat Rabbitte have never really gotten on. You can add ASBOs to the list of things they disagree on.

On your last point, on what do you base your assertion that the youth wing represents the future of the party?

constitutionus

on the basis pat an co will die sometime in the next 50yrs and on average most of the youth guys will still be alive and kicking . i thought that was the point of youth wings in all parties (youth of course being a relative term in politics !)

flogen

Firstly, it's best to generally ignore youth parties in Ireland; they have little input on actual policy and tend to be extreme versions of the "grown-ups" and those who graduate from one to the other often hit a point where reality (or compromise) sets in and their ideaology becomes slightly tamer.

The point on shannon is kind of interesting though, especially if Pat is indeed chosing to ignore a policy passed at their last conference because it doesn't suit his own opinion.
That said I think strife in Labour will only come when the main party starts in-fighting, which is quite possible considering the complete lack of success the FG/Lab wedding has brought them... Oh, and the party stands a good chance of some serious turmoil should a FF/Lab coalition be the only realistic option next year; Pat is one who'd be for the chopping block, but he's not the only person that has such strong opposition to Bertie & Co.

Time Magazine

constitutionus wrote:

an equal number in labour dont like FG so how much would it take to get em to drop pat

The FG-Lab pact was passed pretty damn strongly at the second-to-last Labour Conference, something in the region of 90% iirc.

one things for sure, with the youth wing representing the future of the party

Not at all. Particularly Labour Youth, who are mad.

ive never heard this type of thing coming from the other parties so what do you reckon?

See above; Labour Youth are mad. The most insanely radical youth-wing relative to the senior party in Ireland.

Ibid

Ibid wrote:

Particularly Labour Youth, who are mad.

Dunno how accurate that is, but it's nice and succinct!

Would think that Pat Rabbitte is the major obstacle to a FF/Lab coalition, he has been so stridently and virulently critical of FF in recent years that it seems he has done his best to burn that bridge.

ballooba

flogen wrote:

Firstly, it's best to generally ignore youth parties in Ireland; they have little input on actual policy and tend to be extreme versions of the "grown-ups" and those who graduate from one to the other often hit a point where reality (or compromise) sets in and their ideaology becomes slightly tamer.

Couldn't have put it better myself. Bit over enthusiastic.

They'll moderate their own views to come into line with that of the party proper as they become less idealistic.

Deleted User wrote:

Dunno how accurate that is, but it's nice and succinct!

Would think that Pat Rabbitte is the major obstacle to a FF/Lab coalition, he has been so stridently and virulently critical of FF in recent years that it seems he has done his best to burn that bridge.

I think Pat and the rest of the Labour party members would like to see that bridge well and truly blown up.

mike65

Deleted User wrote:

Would think that Pat Rabbitte is the major obstacle to a FF/Lab coalition, he has been so stridently and virulently critical of FF in recent years that it seems he has done his best to burn that bridge.

Ha! Remember 1992 is all I'll say on that score.

Mike.

J.S. Pill

Yes, the may be a bit mad but the thing about youth wings of parties is that they can be as mad as they like as they are answerable to nobody! Its all too to easy for them to take ultra-principled stances and then deride the party for compromising with practicalities. But can you really picture anyone saying to themselves 'well I like this Labour crowd but their youth wing are a little mad, think I'll vote FF'

In relation to the alternative coalition, one argument put forward a lot within Labour youth is the notion that a coalition with FG would harm Labour's longterm prospects of being a majority coalition partner. Very briefly, support for Labour went down after the last time they were in coalition and they reason that if they're in a coalition this time their support base will diminish further in the medium to long run (multiple holes in this argument of course).

I was a member of Labour youth in a university that shall remain nameless some while back. There were some mad people of course but I had a lot of respect for some of the people there. And believe me, there are far mad-er yoof parties out there!

ArthurDent

Deleted User wrote:

Would think that Pat Rabbitte is the major obstacle to a FF/Lab coalition, he has been so stridently and virulently critical of FF in recent years that it seems he has done his best to burn that bridge.

Not to mention an awful lot of labour members with long memories! and a large part of the electorate imo. The last lab-ff pact cost them dearly.

Kashkai

The numbers just aren't stacking up for a FG/Lab coalition. They failed miserably to capitalise on the "payments to Bertie" issue. If they can snatch defeat from the jaws of victory on a golden opportunity such as this, what chance have they of putting across convincing arguments to the electorate?

Most Politicians are pragmatists and if the numbers stack up after the next election, Labour will go into coalition with the FF'ers. Pat will either have to eat humble pie or walk the plank. The draw of Ministerial posts and Mercs and Perks will be too strong to turn down for Labour.

IMHO, the major drawback to the FG/Lab pact are the two leaders. Enda Kenny just doesn't come across as a potential Taoiseach. He hasn't got any charisma, personality to speak of. Say what you want about the Bert, but he has a certain something that appeals to people (though I can't figure out why?). As for Bunny, he just comes across as an arrogant, patronising gob****e who irritates the hell out of me every time he opens his gob. Damn shame that the likes of Michael Noonan was humiliated at the last election. Now thats a man I could take seriously. He comes across as someone who is very intelligent, quick witted and humerous (he could cut the Bert to the bone in any Dail debate). Sadly, the opposition have no one to match him as a potential Taoiseach in waiting.

verbatim

Labour does seem to be facing a lot of internal conflict. Since all Labour TDs are over 50, they are living in a different world to their youth wing. They are aiming at the middle class voter now, and seem to be ignoring their working class base. Theres been a lot of labour members on politics.ie recently with daggers out for the party heads, more so than any other party. Whilst its interesting to see the conflicts spilling out, it cant be too good for party moral, especially not with an election in a few months time.

On a slightly different note Kevin Humphreys (57) has a public bebo page. Its the first labour rep I've seen with one, trying to tap into the youth vote I presume...

Dirk Gently

I know a couple of Labour youth people who really believe Labour is a left wing party (seriously). The problem is the youth actually believe in socialism and standing up for the working class while the Labour party proper only pays lip service to it, and very sparingly these days too. Perhaps if Labour Youth got to make the policy the party might actually grow by way of the fact that they would be an alternative to the government parties as opposed to silent partners in a FG lead conservative government.

I'm am of the opinion that Labour could have seriously improved their vote if they provided a left alternative but as things stand they are going to lose a lot of what little they have left at this point as a lot of their voters swing towards SF, the Greens and the Socialist Party. Labour badly needs a LABOUR leader.

verbatim

clown bag wrote:

I'm am of the opinion that Labour could have seriously improved their vote if they provided a left alternative but as things stand they are going to lose a lot of what little they have left at this point as a lot of their voters swing towards SF, the Greens and the Socialist Party. Labour badly needs a LABOUR leader.

Very true. They will loose most to SF. I saw a debate on TV where a Labour TD was talking about all their great policies, and telling people to download them from their website. A SF TD then said that they represent people who cant afford computers. Really put the boot in that Labour no longer represent the working class. Sure even Bertie is more of a working class socialist than Rabbitte.

Oirthir

verbatim wrote:

I saw a debate on TV where a Labour TD was talking about all their great policies, and telling people to download them from their website. A SF TD then said that they represent people who cant afford computers.

I may be over simplifying this, but public library = free internet access.

Problem solved.

verbatim

Oirthir wrote:

I may be over simplifying this, but public library = free internet access.

Problem solved.

That assumes two things, that you know how to use a computer, and that you can read.

J.S. Pill

clown bag wrote:

I'm am of the opinion that Labour could have seriously improved their vote if they provided a left alternative but as things stand they are going to lose a lot of what little they have left at this point as a lot of their voters swing towards SF, the Greens and the Socialist Party. Labour badly needs a LABOUR leader.

This is a really problematic point. I think its foolish to suggest that Labour could improve their vote by trying to claw back voters from what might be perceived as their 'natural constituency' that other parties (i.e. SF and to a large extent FF) have a firm grip on. Whether or not it was Labour's efforts to court the middle class that caused these voters to stray away from the party in the first place is somewhat beside the point now. Point is it would be very difficult to either do a volte face or to even try and accomodate both classes (hate using that word). Like it or not, they're pretty much stuck on their current course for the moment.

It doesn't take much examination to see the broad ternd in europe of left leaning parties who traditionally had strong working class bases increasingly gearing themselves towards capturing the critical centreground. I sometimes wonder why Irish Labour haven't launched a New Labour or SDP style rebranding with all the associated pomp and ceremony. If the middle class are now their core base then why not go the whole hog and rebrand themselves as a dynamic & progressive party thats in tune with the realities of globalisation!?

Labour certainly have many flaws but i reckon I'll still vote for them

lostexpectation

verbatim wrote:

That assumes two things, that you know how to use a computer, and that you can read.

well this unfortunate person is watching tv so there you go...

constitutionus

Oirthir wrote:

I may be over simplifying this, but public library = free internet access.

Problem solved.

unless of course your public library is in a prefab and doesnt have internet access which is the case all over this country

glad to see this thread brought up so many interesting points. after reading one of them i was struck by a thought. what if labour youth decided to split and run candidates againts the official (i.e over 50yrs of age ) labour candidate. seeing as its unlikely labour would ever be a socialist party again this could be the only way to get a large mainstream party out there that'd appeal to the traditional labour voter. i know its unlikely but still its an interesting possibility, particularly if they marketed themselves on their youth. the average age of the country is mid thirties yet practically no one in the current dail fits this demographic. it'd be very easy to label the usual suspects as living in a different world to todays average voter and all their concerns.

just a thought.

Dirk Gently

constitutionus wrote:

glad to see this thread brought up so many interesting points. after reading one of them i was struck by a thought. what if labour youth decided to split and run candidates againts the official (i.e over 50yrs of age ) labour candidate. seeing as its unlikely labour would ever be a socialist party again this could be the only way to get a large mainstream party out there that'd appeal to the traditional labour voter. i know its unlikely but still its an interesting possibility, particularly if they marketed themselves on their youth. the average age of the country is mid thirties yet practically no one in the current dail fits this demographic. it'd be very easy to label the usual suspects as living in a different world to todays average voter and all their concerns.

sounds like what Higgins socialist party are already doing. maybe a mass labour defection to the SP is in order to create a viable left alternative. I think the Labour people influencing the SP would be enough to pull higgins crew into the mainstream and fill that huge gap between where the socialist party are on the far left and where labour are in the centre right. I dont see the point of Labour rebranding themselves as a centre party instead of a left party. We already have centre parties and the pds on the right.

For the sake of democratic choice I think labour should shift left and learn a few lessons from Higgins. The problem at the moment is there is no choice for the voters politically, its all just about who's least likely to **** up while following the same policies and clearly people want bertie and co to continue what they're doing because they have no confidence in pet rabbit to basically do the same thing. Pet rabbit needs to offer a different option to the centre right path which is well covered by the other parties all ready.

J.S. Pill

Could you really imagine Joe Soap voting for any party with *youth* ominously attached on? And do you think that Labour youth would want to split the Labour vote?

And lets not forget that Joe Higgins is very strong on grass roots issues (which I respect him a lot for) and thats why he gets elected, I very much doubt if the people who vote for him are all that familiar with the ideology he professes or if they are bothered at all about it as long as he gets the job done.