Suicide is narcissistic ,Do you agree?

Originally Posted by Slutmonkey57b
Not really suicide is a fairly narcissistic act anyway.


This was said in the thread I started yesterday and it got me thinking about the event in itself and the way it was done?

There are certain aspect's of suicide that could be portrayed as selfish or narcissistic?


Wouold you agree?

delly

Either way, posting such a serious topic in AH doesn't really seem right.

b3t4

[edit]
Apologies, I presume you are taking definition number 2

narcism
A psychological condition characterized by self-preoccupation, lack of empathy, and unconscious deficits in self-esteem
[/edit]

I still find this thread extremely ignorant

A.

MrJoeSoap

Certainly wouldn't see it as narcissistic, possibly the exact opposite (i.e. - self loathing).

As for selfish, its not really a valid word to use because to describe the ultimate act of taking ones own life probably involves such a massive range of emotions and feelings that 'selfishness' is very low in the pecking order.

RE*AC*TOR

Given that Narcissus was said to have killed himself - then yes, maybe it is possible to descibe it that way. However, it is a broad brush to be painting such a compelx issue with.

Tobias Greeshman

Agreed, it belongs over in humanities where it can be debated properly.

tbh

Some people commit suicide because their life is so painful they physically cannot continue.

Some people attempt suicide because they envision being woken up in a hospital bed surrounded by relatives apologizing for not paying attention to them.

I feel terribly sorry for both.

agree with delly - nothing constructive will come of this thread if it's left in AH.

It's not a completly mad thing for people here to discuss a serious topic's as many topic's of a serious nature have been broached and throughly discussed and debated before here
Given yesterday's event in tesco's and the fact suicide is constantly on the rise I was aksing if people would care to discuss it?

I don't think it belong's in humanites

Hail 2 Da Chimp

Dont know if id agree its narcissistic, bit too broad of a subject it differs person to person.

Rabies

CSG, with a thread of this nature in AH there is always there expectation that someone will spoil it. It would be better suited to Humanities.

Suicide will always be a delicate matter. People may not agree with the persons motives or reasons, but I guess you can never really understand it unless you have been in that state of mind before. It must seem right to the person committing the act of suicide.

The selfish view is from those on the outside.

Mrs_Doyle

Mmm, I don't have a very clearly defined opinion on the matter, but, then again, each case of suicide is different from the next, the persons motives are different, and its almost impossible to have a 'one size fits all' opinion.

I do think that suicide can be an incredibly selfish act, and the person does not seem to show consideration for the people they are leaving behind

The brother of a girl that I work with shot himself 3 weeks ago.

He was 58 years old, no wife, no children, he had polio and suffered depression for years.

His brothers and sisters were absolutely devastated, but the guy had lived in a black hell for years, he truly saw suicide as his only release, so, well, in a case like this... maybe he was right, maybe it really was his only way out of a hell on earth

Reku

Hell is supposed to be a torment beyond imagining.
Suicide is a mortal sin.

So how far do you think people really have to be pushed and how miserable must they be that they are willing to risk the possibility of being somewhere worse?
I don't think it's a simple case of waking up one morning: "Hmm... think I'll kill myself today, that should be a larf...", they have to be pushed to it over a very long time, slowly losing thier sense of self esteem then self preservation. Some may just be drama queens, but most of them have been/are undoubtedly miserable for a long time.

Those who fake a suicide attempt for attention though... not sure how to view that, is it that nothing else has worked and people continued to ignore them. Is it perhaps that they can't articulate what needs to be said and somehow feel that this will help? Short of someone who's done so posting here I doubt we'll have any insight, and the social stigma that exists even around self-harm makes it unlikely that anyone genuine would speak up.

**pointless tidbit - FYI in Victorian times if you attempted suicide and were caught they hung you. ** Great logic, eh? lol

Ruu_Old

Moved, CSG, we have more forums on boards than just AH. Thanks.

b3t4

farohar wrote:

Those who fake a suicide attempt for attention though

What exactly is a "fake" suicide attempt?

If a person dies when commiting suicide there is sympathy and people go on about how much pain they must of been in and all the rest.

If someone doesn't succed in their quest to commit suicide they are attention seeking.

I fail to see how a person who doesn't succeed to commit suicide is in any less pain that the person who succeeds.

A.

stovelid

Of course it's not.

I feel it's a misconception that exists because those left behind feel powerless and angry.

This doesn't mean that suicides are selfish or inconsiderate of others.

This is the kind of topic that should be another thread.

Also as others have said, I wouldn't have thought a true narcissist would draw away and seek to obliterate the self like a suicide.

Slutmonkey57b

farohar wrote:

Hell is supposed to be a torment beyond imagining.
Suicide is a mortal sin.

Eeeh right you are. Apart from the fact that neither of those things exist, great point well made.

Suicide is to me the ultimate act of teenage "they'll miss me when I'm gone" showboating. It's quite different from euthanasia, where someone might be escaping from an unlivable existance. Regardless of the depressive's reasoning behind it, there will always be an element of attention seeking in it - which is why most suicides are messy, and leave a corpse in a place where someone known to the suicide (and therefore most affected by it) will be the one to find it.

tbh

b3t4 wrote:

What exactly is a "fake" suicide attempt?

If a person dies when commiting suicide there is sympathy and people go on about how much pain they must of been in and all the rest.

If someone doesn't succed in their quest to commit suicide they are attention seeking.

I fail to see how a person who doesn't succeed to commit suicide is in any less pain that the person who succeeds.

A.

don't confuse "fake" with "failed". A "fake" attempt is an attempt where the person has no intention of committing suicide, they expect (and hope) to be found before they die.

these people have my sympathy for the obvious reason that their life is not as happy as mine.

Reku

b3t4 wrote:

What exactly is a "fake" suicide attempt?

If a person dies when commiting suicide there is sympathy and people go on about how much pain they must of been in and all the rest.

If someone doesn't succed in their quest to commit suicide they are attention seeking.

I fail to see how a person who doesn't succeed to commit suicide is in any less pain that the person who succeeds.

A.

Hence why I put fake suicide attempt.

People can make suicide attempts and still survive (e.g. remember one story of a guy who slashed his wrists in a home and then after the paramedics were called he spent the next 20 mins using the knife to fend them off) but then there are those who make what has all the outward appearance of being a suicide attempt but they had no intention of dying, e.g. taking an overdose then actually calling someone for help.

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Eeeh right you are. Apart from the fact that neither of those things exist, great point well made.

How do you know? You're free to have your own beliefs, but the insistance that they are right above everyone elses' with no actual proof is just arrogant. Personally I don't believe in Jesus, but I won't argue with someone who does believe he existed, and was God's son, insisting such.

Even if they don't exist the strength of the belief that they do is the key point here.

stovelid

You f*cking idiot

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Suicide is to me the ultimate act of teenage "they'll miss me when I'm gone" showboating. .

Froot

stovelid wrote:

You f*cking idiot

I have to agree.

Diogenes

farohar wrote:

How do you know? You're free to have your own beliefs, but the insistance that they are right above everyone elses' with no actual proof is just arrogant. Personally I don't believe in Jesus, but I won't argue with someone who does believe he existed, and was God's son, insisting such.

If you don't believe in a religion why warn people that the may suffer the fate that a religion condemns them to.

aidan24326

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Suicide is to me the ultimate act of teenage "they'll miss me when I'm gone" showboating. It's quite different from euthanasia, where someone might be escaping from an unlivable existance. Regardless of the depressive's reasoning behind it, there will always be an element of attention seeking in it - which is why most suicides are messy, and leave a corpse in a place where someone known to the suicide (and therefore most affected by it) will be the one to find it.

What a stupid and ignorant post. How do you know the person who shot him/herself in the head wasn't escaping an unlivable (to him/her) existence? Do you know what was going through the mind of every person who ever killed themself? No you don't. For someone to put a gun in their mouth or tie the rope around their neck that person has to be gone to a pretty dark and desperate place. Most of us are fortunate enough not to be there. You might be deeply depressed/desperate/suicidal yourself some day so bear that in mind before you make such pointless sweeping generalisations.

stovelid

Its probably worthless to even explain to him mate. Not only a troll but an exceptionally tasteless and asinine one..

aidan24326 wrote:

What a stupid and ignorant post. How do you know the person who shot him/herself in the head wasn't escaping an unlivable (to him/her) existence? Do you know what was going through the mind of every person who ever killed themself? No you don't. For someone to put a gun in their mouth or tie the rope around their neck that person has to be gone to a pretty dark and desperate place. Most of us are fortunate enough not to be there. You might be deeply depressed/desperate/suicidal yourself some day so bear that in mind before you make such pointless sweeping generalisations.

Capt'n Midnight

What was that French bloke ?, short books, but very hard to read. The one about not walking near canals in case someone jumped in and he'd have to rescue them. And besides that (he said) that a suicide thought themselves so important and that everyone would be sorry and miss them and feel guilty , but what would really happen is that life for everyone else would go on without them.

Found it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fall_%28novel%29

upthere

stovelid wrote:

You f*cking idiot

I definately f8cking agree with you on that p(*ck stovelid!
Suicide is not something we can understand unless you know what the urge is like. Some people have to take medication to stop feeling like that.
I know of suicides from nice individuals who were obviously on their own. I know of one fantastic guy who I was very upset for who commited suicide, yeah a teenage ya w(nk, but he had noone! Always got treated like sh8t from people and noone ever understood him. I am a very tuned person and I could tell he was soft under it and selfless!
This thread is offensive to family members of people who have went on in such a way! People who take an ignorant attitde to suicide, death, or anything that requires an open mind and not to judge one by being wierd or narcissitc(whatever) is only some arrogant ponse too full of themselves to realise life is more than just fancy words and qualifications and money and power.
What a f(cking ignorant comment on "i'll show them". Im sure people with that mentality do it for more than just that reason. I don't know you but I'm sure you are quite cynical towards people in general and one of the type who likes to be the top of your position treating "decent" people like s*it so your word is important over all.
Sorry for the rant humanities, i just feel slightly upset at this opinion and I think I am posting my response. Please don't be too harsh mods as recently a suicide has been in my family! very recent and a teenager!

upthere

I don't know about sin or not, but I belive strongly in every possibility and believe good and evil are separate things that come togethe to form a grey area. The universe is a spectrum and human life is one part of our existence so when one decides to end it it doesnt mean they are immoral or wrong they are just as good as a person they always were, they go on and are alive in some way or another still. Ignorant people will never have the time to think abstractly at the reasons for things like this they will judge and have ignorant heartlesss points of views that will upset more than comfort! what comes around goes around. I wouldnt say that because it would come back on me!

upthere

But i have to say, if someone does commit suicide the only people who will really care are those closest. Nobody else.

Diogenes

My uncle committed sucide about three years ago. He was a cronic alcoholic with lung cancer. He was going to die a painful and awful death so he hung himself.

I comforted the poor 21 year old kid, this kid who a year before hand had had to swear to avoid some bloke who took a load of pills and, gutted himself and lay on a road and waited for a car to run him down, this poor guy, less than twelve months after coming across that, had to pull my uncle down and try CPR.

My uncle walked away from the most painful and ugly death we can imagine. I saw him in his final months and I could glimpse what he faced and I couldn't bear it. I don't blame him for commiting sucide.

I'm just bitter and anger he had to do it in such a manner, that a man who is in terminal pain cannot die without putting some poor bastard kid in such awful circumstances.

I'll always remember running after this devasted kid who couldn't even face showing himself at the wake, and with tears in my eyes thanking him for the effort he'd made, he just couldn't take it, he was consumed with guilt about not saving my uncle.

If you are mentally unwell, every effort should be made to help you, but if you are terminally ill you should have a choice to end your live with dignity.

amp

As this thread originated in After Hours I will not be banning people retrospectively for personal abuse. I would ask that people attack the arguments and not the poster or bannings will occur.

Back on topic.

meepins

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Eeeh right you are. Apart from the fact that neither of those things exist, great point well made.

Suicide is to me the ultimate act of teenage "they'll miss me when I'm gone" showboating. It's quite different from euthanasia, where someone might be escaping from an unlivable existance. Regardless of the depressive's reasoning behind it, there will always be an element of attention seeking in it - which is why most suicides are messy, and leave a corpse in a place where someone known to the suicide (and therefore most affected by it) will be the one to find it.

Clearly you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about and I don't blame anyone taking serious offence to your attitude.
Have you gone through any lengthy period of clinical depression personally? If not I'd suggest you rethink your position.

monkey tennis

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Suicide is to me the ultimate act of teenage "they'll miss me when I'm gone" showboating. It's quite different from euthanasia, where someone might be escaping from an unlivable existance. Regardless of the depressive's reasoning behind it, there will always be an element of attention seeking in it - which is why most suicides are messy, and leave a corpse in a place where someone known to the suicide (and therefore most affected by it) will be the one to find it.

You might want to hang on to your armchair psychology books there mate, I think you've got quite a way to go before you get your diploma.

Sure, when a teenager swallows a load of pills when they know their parents are going to be home in plenty of time to find them, there's a pretty heavy likelyhood that it's more of an attention thing than an actual attempt to expediate the mortal coil off-shuffling, but if you think that most suicides are of this type, I reckon you could do with talking to some people who have dealt with actual suicide victims (be under no illusion, these people are victims) to better understand the mentality of someone who wants off the ride. This kind of suicide is autoeuthanasia, not emo syndrome.

nesf

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Suicide is to me the ultimate act of teenage "they'll miss me when I'm gone" showboating. It's quite different from euthanasia, where someone might be escaping from an unlivable existance. Regardless of the depressive's reasoning behind it, there will always be an element of attention seeking in it - which is why most suicides are messy, and leave a corpse in a place where someone known to the suicide (and therefore most affected by it) will be the one to find it.

Simply put; you don't have the slightest understanding of what you are speaking about and would do everybody a favour by going off and bothering to educate yourself even a tiny bit before commenting on an issue as broad and complicated as suicide.

I sincerely hope that you are just trolling.

mark_363

upthere wrote:

But i have to say, if someone does commit suicide the only people who will really care are those closest. Nobody else.

Ok therefore can it not been seen as a rather selfish act. Like there are people who you can talk too, family friends etc. if one commits suicide it can have terrible emotional effects on the people closest to him/her. Like you can argue that maybe they feel there is no way out except for suicide but there is. There’s always someone to talk to. Why create emotional discomfort on those closest to you just because you didn’t feel you could talk to anyone, is that not selfish.

aidan24326

mark_363 wrote:

Ok therefore can it not been seen as a rather selfish act. Like there are people who you can talk too, family friends etc. if one commits suicide it can have terrible emotional effects on the people closest to him/her. Like you can argue that maybe they feel there is no way out except for suicide but there is. There’s always someone to talk to. Why create emotional discomfort on those closest to you just because you didn’t feel you could talk to anyone, is that not selfish.

Yes in a way it is selfish, but then you don't know what is going through that person's mind when they pull the trigger/tie the rope round their neck. In most cases the person will be in turmoil and not thinking in any rational way. Selfish or not, ultimately a person's life is their own, and it's that person's right to end it if that's what they choose to do. It would also be selfish of me to expect someone close to me to endure a truly miserable existence just to spare my feelings, so it can work both ways.

Transcendant

I think that this thread misses the entire point in relation to suicide. The most basic human need and want is survival so when that itself has evaporated the individual is in a mentally ill state, selfish ness does not come into it.

mark_363

aidan24326 wrote:

Yes in a way it is selfish, but then you don't know what is going through that person's mind when they pull the trigger/tie the rope round their neck. In most cases the person will be in turmoil and not thinking in any rational way. Selfish or not, ultimately a person's life is their own, and it's that person's right to end it if that's what they choose to do. It would also be selfish of me to expect someone close to me to endure a truly miserable existence just to spare my feelings, so it can work both ways.

Yes fair point. But in a lot of cases if, maybe, the person did talk to someone close to them they could of got through it. I know if a person feels they really have no other option but death their not going to be thinking of other peoples feelings, but they should consider talking to someone first. You’d be surprised how much that really can help.

Tar.Aldarion

Eh, how is it narcissistic ?
Do you even have an arguement for that OP...?

panda100

Transcendant wrote:

I think that this thread misses the entire point in relation to suicide. The most basic human need and want is survival so when that itself has evaporated the individual is in a mentally ill state, selfish ness does not come into it.

I couldnt agree more with this.
Like others said, to those that are left behind it seems a selfish act because they are left with the pain and suffering of losing someone they loved. However most parasuicide victims have said they felt that if they died that they would be unburdening their families and friends.They see their suicide as a release to family and friends.

Also its intresting to point out that their is a huge genetic component to suicide which leads me to believe that suicide victims have a certain gene in their body which allows them to go through with a suicide.Many of us maybe have thought at some stage that it would be easier to end our life but something stops us from going that extra step.Those that 'succesfully' commit suicide do not have this preventative mechanism.However because of the huge stigma concerning suicide in Ireland not many of us would know if a great uncle or aunt for example would have commited suicide. It would all have been covered up because of the embarrasment it may have caused the family. However I think its very important that people would know there is a family of history of suicide so others can be extra vigilant of suicdal behaviour.

McGinty

"Eeeh right you are. Apart from the fact that neither of those things exist, great point well made.

Suicide is to me the ultimate act of teenage "they'll miss me when I'm gone" showboating. It's quite different from euthanasia, where someone might be escaping from an unlivable existance. Regardless of the depressive's reasoning behind it, there will always be an element of attention seeking in it - which is why most suicides are messy, and leave a corpse in a place where someone known to the suicide (and therefore most affected by it) will be the one to find it."

On what authority do you make that assumption?

Last year my sister committed suicide, she had attempted about six months previously, it was a failed attempt, that is she was serious, and was raging when the huge amount of tablets didn't work. She entered therapy and tried very, very hard to work through her issues, sadly it didn't work, she hung herself, because I believe, I'll never know for sure, she was in utter torment. She was the most selfless person I knew, in actual fact if she had of been a little more selfish she may have had more energy to help herself. A narcisstic is someone obsessed with themselves, their lives, their issues, and I have met many of them, I am a good listener, empathic so I tend to attract these types, and they go on and on and on, there is no room for anyone else, they literally suck the life out of others. People who commit suicide are in a very dark place, they see no light at the end of the tunnel, no hope no reason for going on. How do I know, because I have felt this way, as a child for two years and as a teenager again a two year period, I have no idea how I survived but I did. Whilst my family and I are grieving, we will also come to terms with the loss of my sister, we will survive and come to accept it in time. Also someone suggested if a suicidal person talked to others maybe they wouldn't. A week before my sister died she told me she was feeling suicidal, I did try to give her hope to keep going. It wasn't enough, if someone decides to opt out they will regardless of what others do. You cannot make a blanket, one dimensional response to such a complex issue.

Also its intresting to point out that their is a huge genetic component to suicide which leads me to believe that suicide victims have a certain gene in their body which allows them to go through with a suicide.

Panda where did you get this information? I'm sorry but I feel there is far too much talk of genetic components as a means to explain very complex issues. Suicide, euthanasia, abortion, life itself, relating to people etc, are all over determined, again I would suggest not to apply a one dimensional, blanketed response to complex life issues. Maybe, maybe it is okay to say we just don't know, and that may allow us to respond to each life situation on a case by case and individual approach.

abetarrush

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

Eeeh right you are. Apart from the fact that neither of those things exist, great point well made.

Suicide is to me the ultimate act of teenage "they'll miss me when I'm gone" showboating. It's quite different from euthanasia, where someone might be escaping from an unlivable existance. Regardless of the depressive's reasoning behind it, there will always be an element of attention seeking in it - which is why most suicides are messy, and leave a corpse in a place where someone known to the suicide (and therefore most affected by it) will be the one to find it.

You're so full of shxt

Seriously, get a clue, and have some consideration

panda100

Im very sorry to hear about your sister. Suicide is such a massive waste of life in this country.

McGinty wrote:

Panda where did you get this information? I'm sorry but I feel there is far too much talk of genetic components as a means to explain very complex issues. Suicide, euthanasia, abortion, life itself, relating to people etc, are all over determined, again I would suggest not to apply a one dimensional, blanketed response to complex life issues. Maybe, maybe it is okay to say we just don't know, and that may allow us to respond to each life situation on a case by case and individual approach.

There is many medical article published on the genetic component in suicide.Hers one for example
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=17032544&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum
There is no denying the fact that those who have had suicide victims in previous family generations are more at risk of actually going through with a suicide. I do not want to upset you by saying this.Its actually on the contrary. I think this should be openly discussed in order to prevent the suicide epidemic that is on our shores at the moment.

If your uncle and great grandfather died of heart attacks in there early 40's you would want to know so you can make sure you, your siblings and children moniter themselves as they are in a high risk group for heart attacks. Its the same with suicide,if there is a family history then succesive generations should be made aware of this to carefully monitor any suicidal behaviour.

In Ireland though because there is such a stigma with suicide its very rare that your parents will talk of any previous family members commiting suicide.
Im a medical student and when I am taking historys I ask for previous family historys of diseases and the patient lists off diabetes,heart disease etc. I think a family history of suicide should be added to this list ecspecially in Ireland, so doctors can carefully monitor there patients but at the momnet it is a taboo subject.

upthere

For those who are twisted enough to think someone wants to die to get attention and enjoy the attention while being dead which doens't make sense read this:
http://www.aneki.com/suicide.html
Highest suicide rates appear to be in former soviet states. So are you implying that these people are narcissitic? People who are suicidal have reasons for feeling bad whether biological, enviromental, person etc etc. These factors all play a role but biological is important. Brain chemicals at the time they commit suicide are specific enough to make them feel so low life doesn't matter. Does being epileptic mean people are narcissitic? Does any mental illness mean they are narcissitic? Think before you post your stupid crap! If you are extremely happy never comtimplated suicde people yourself, why the judgement on suicidal people as being narcisstistic? Takes one to know one and make false generalisations concerning others in similar circumstance! Get help!