Loosey Goosey??

eggie

1/2 PLHE - Live Cash game

Moved to main table 15 mins prior, seems loose enough as per ususal.

Stacks:

Villain 1 - 1,000+ - older chinese gent, never seen before
Villain 2 - 400 - regular, loose enough & finds it hard to lay down a hand when he hits the board, but not stupid either.
Hero - 520 approx
Villain 3 - 320 - no idea


Raised to 7 in EP (norm), 8 callers(norm). I have As 4s in MP.

Flop (64)- Qd 8s 6s

Vill 1 bets 60, vill 2 calls, hero calls, vill 3 calls

Turn (304) - 8c

Vill 1 bets 60, vill 2 calls, hero calls, vill 3 calls

River (544) - 7s

Vill 1 bets 400 (has everyone else covered by this)
Vill 2 goes all in pretty quick for 280

I have 370 left, wtf???

BigCityBanker

I would have sparked a fire from the felt I would have got my chips in that quick. you have the nut flush - you are unfortunate if somebody has spiked a boat. (dont tell me somebody showed a straight flush)

DubDani

Ouch ... tough spot to be in.

As it is the emporium (guess) I would say 9sTs is def. a possibility.

But my guess would be that Villain 2 flopped a set, and filled his boat on the turn, possibly with 66.

Hard to lay down, especially if you only recently moved to the table and have very little info on other players in the hand.

i guess you called, and lost...

Bandana boy

8 players see the flop and the turn pairs thats not unlucky somebody hit a boat that is highely likely someones hit a boat
Go back in time and stop the turn from pairing
Failing that fold

Gholimoli

couple of things with this hand:

on the flop you have to call 60 to win 180 pot .thats 3:1 odds.
you need 4:1 if you inted to play the hand for more card only and you are not getting it so i would fold on the flop.

you can argue the implied odds on this hand but with that many players in the hand i doubt you will get paid when the flush hits as its very likely some1 actually made the flush.

on the turn the bored pairs and ur flush dosent hit yet you continue with your hand knowing its possible for you to make your hand yet still lose?
you chose to do it anyway and now you have hit your draw and dont know what to do?

when you called the turned bet what were you hoping for to happen?

sickpuppy

fold the flop ghloi are u mad,in the emporium if he hits the nut flush chances are a lower one will pay him off in full.FOLD WHEN BOARD PAIRS EVEN AGAINEST poor players blind squirrels may even find nuts

eggie

Gholimoli wrote:

couple of things with this hand:

on the flop you have to call 60 to win 180 pot .thats 3:1 odds.
you need 4:1 if you inted to play the hand for more card only and you are not getting it so i would fold on the flop.

you can argue the implied odds on this hand but with that many players in the hand i doubt you will get paid when the flush hits as its very likely some1 actually made the flush.

on the turn the bored pairs and ur flush dosent hit yet you continue with your hand knowing its possible for you to make your hand yet still lose?
you chose to do it anyway and now you have hit your draw and dont know what to do?

when you called the turned bet what were you hoping for to happen?

Definitely dont think i should fold the flop here, i,m 2/1 to hit the nuts by the river, 4/1 on the turn and my implied odds at this point are huge by calling the flop bets. The board pairing on the turn calls for me to re-evaluate.

Gholimoli

eggie wrote:

Definitely dont think i should fold the flop here, i,m 2/1 to hit the nuts by the river, 4/1 on the turn and my implied odds at this point are huge by calling the flop bets. The board pairing on the turn calls for me to re-evaluate.

you are not getting 4:1 to see the turn and you have no idea what your odds are going to be by the river.
pushing here is much better than calling .

handsfree

BigCityBanker wrote:

I would have sparked a fire from the felt I would have got my chips in that quick. you have the nut flush - you are unfortunate if somebody has spiked a boat. (dont tell me somebody showed a straight flush)

ditto ... as it stands i go broke here everytime

eggie

Gholimoli wrote:

you are not getting 4:1 to see the turn and you have no idea what your odds are going to be by the river.
pushing here is much better than calling .

If someone else is flushing then i'm getting paid if i hit, if someone is slowplaying a set then i'm likely to get paid if they cant lay it down, i stand to win way more than i lose before the board pairs on the turn. My implied odds on the flop are excellent at this stage.

If i push i'm getting called by a flush draw, which is good, or a slowplayed set which i'm behind. At least by calling the flop i still have the chance of getting away form the hand if the turn is a disaster and the fireworks begin

I,m not giving anyone a cheap shot at hitting hteir hand, they are giving me a cheap shot. Why should i push and pay 430 bucks for my draw when i can get it fot 60.

If i push i may make smaller flush draws fold, not good as they will pay me if the flush hits. A slowplayed set will always call therefore i paying extra to see later streets when behind.

EDIT: tournament strategy may dictate a push here but loose cash games dictate a diferent methodology imo.

Gholimoli

eggie wrote:

If someone else is flushing then i'm getting paid if i hit, if someone is slowplaying a set then i'm likely to get paid if they cant lay it down, i stand to win way more than i lose before the board pairs on the turn. My implied odds on the flop are excellent at this stage.

If i push i'm getting called by a flush draw, which is good, or a slowplayed set which i'm behind. At least by calling the flop i still have the chance of getting away form the hand if the turn is a disaster and the fireworks begin

I,m not giving anyone a cheap shot at hitting hteir hand, they are giving me a cheap shot. Why should i push and pay 430 bucks for my draw when i can get it fot 60.

If i push i may make smaller flush draws fold, not good as they will pay me if the flush hits. A slowplayed set will always call therefore i paying extra to see later streets when behind.

EDIT: tournament strategy may dictate a push here but loose cash games dictate a diferent methodology imo.

There are few things about your logic here:
First of all if some1 else is flushing then your odds are not 4:1 on the turn and 2:1 on the river are they?

Your implied odds are not that good either.
If some one has a set then you are likely to hit your hand and still lose as they have 9+ outs to make a boat by river.
Also implied odds is greatly impacted by how hidden the strength of your hand is !
Do you not think its fairly obvious what you have at this stage?I mean you over call a raise and call pre flop and you do the same on the flop and then the third spade comes and you bet …do you think your hand is hidden here?

As for the push on the flop:
You will never get called by another flush draw (not with these stacks anyway I mean not usually anyway) so your assumption is no correct.
However that not the issue.
The fact is your pushing 500 in to 180 pot needing 2:1 (seen as you make sure the hand is played to the river when you push) .
If we assume you get called in only one place (which not a bad assumption) then you are getting 1180:500, which is 2.36:1. As you only need 2:1 then this is a good proposition for you.
Also you a lot of the time you will take the pot there and then which makes this a good play and a much better one than flat calling.

Ste05

Flop is an auto call. EDITED: Didn't see Gholi was advocating a push instead of a fold, I like a push, but also don't mind a call. I think our implied odds are just about OK.


Turn, those are pretty tremendous odds (7:1) although with the board pairing, it's a bit mneh, I'd probably call here too, hoping the river will be checked down, but since it wasn't, I'm up in the air about this, we've invested €127, we still have ~400 left, and although the pot is huge, we can prorably still lay it down, but I wouldn't like to do it.

It certainly does looks like we are beaten, but with your description of Villain 2 would make me think we're ahead of him,

What has me worried is Villain 1's play, why bet so little on the turn, then bet big on the River? Surely he'd have re-raised PF with QQ, I discount 88 because there's 2 out there already, 77 and 87 are unlikely because of the flop play, 86 and 66 makes sense based on his flop and turn play. It certainly is a tricky one indeed, is there any more info at all on Villain 1, any idea how he got his big stack?

I'd probably go on my gut instinct, but would be leaning towards a fold as played...

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

eggie

Gholimoli wrote:

There are few things about your logic here:
First of all if some1 else is flushing then your odds are not 4:1 on the turn and 2:1 on the river are they?.

No but we cant discount the probability on an assumption as its unknown and i still have the same chance of hitting my draw as they do.



[/QUOTE]Your implied odds are not that good either.
If some one has a set then you are likely to hit your hand and still lose as they have 9+ outs to make a boat by river.[/QUOTE]

I'll gladly put my stack in on the turn with the nuts getting called with a set, they may have 9 outs but i have more cards in my favour than they do.

[/QUOTE]
Also implied odds is greatly impacted by how hidden the strength of your hand is !
Do you not think its fairly obvious what you have at this stage?I mean you over call a raise and call pre flop and you do the same on the flop and then the third spade comes and you bet …do you think your hand is hidden here?[/QUOTE]

No, agreed, however these guys will not lay down a set/2 pair/overpair in this situation, they will try and hit their 9 outs.


[/QUOTE]
As for the push on the flop:
You will never get called by another flush draw (not with these stacks anyway I mean not usually anyway) so your assumption is no correct..[/QUOTE]

Therefore i make weaker hands fold and pay extra for the same probability of hitting my hand.


[/QUOTE]However that not the issue.
The fact is your pushing 500 in to 180 pot needing 2:1 (seen as you make sure the hand is played to the river when you push) .
If we assume you get called in only one place (which not a bad assumption) then you are getting 1180:500, which is 2.36:1. As you only need 2:1 then this is a good proposition for you.[/QUOTE]

valid point, agreed.

[/QUOTE]Also you a lot of the time you will take the pot there and then which makes this a good play and a much better one than flat calling.[/QUOTE]
you will always have at least 1 caller here with a set or even two pair or an over pair in these games with this pot.

Hitman Actual

One thing Gholi: if you push you only get called by two-pair or a set, so I dont think 2.36/1 odds are enough either. If I remember correctly, FD v 2P = 2.5/1, and FD v SET = 3/1.

Edit: reading other more knowledgeable posts, maybe you get called by a lot more, so whatever.

bops

you called the 60 quid on the turn knowing that you may be drawing dead - you hit your river card - you make the call!!

i know the way v1 & v2 have got their chips in has got you worried - but ship 'em anyways!!

I have never been right yet, but have a good feeling this afternoon:

V1: A8
V2: XsXs
You: Winner!!
V3: 9T

...that would be just lovely juvely - don't forget to tip the dealer

eggie

bops wrote:

you called the 60 quid on the turn knowing that you may be drawing dead

This is the decision point in the hand, river is irrelevant if i hit my hand. If i miss i simply muck on the cheap.

bops

eggie wrote:

This is the decision point in the hand, river is irrelevant if i hit my hand. If i miss i simply muck on the cheap.

yep, that's what i'm saying - you decided to go for it...therefore you call the bet OTR

Gholimoli

Sigh ...
i give up against such strong arguments and reasoning

bops

Gholimoli wrote:

Sigh ...
i give up against such strong arguments and reasoning

very simple reasoning - it you thought the nut flush (if hit) was good on the turn, then there is no reason to think it is not good on the river

V1: unlikely to have boat - surely best smaller imo
V2: may have str8, trips or smaller flush - if he has the boat at leat you get 180 back from the sidepot so not costing you too much


...just my thoughts

Bandana boy

bops wrote:

very simple reasoning - it you thought the nut flush (if hit) was good on the turn, then there is no reason to think it is not good on the river

other than a bet of 60 and a bet of 400 you mean

Bandana boy

So if villain 1 flopped set got 3 callers turned a house got 3 callers and the river flushed what would are advice be ??

i am pretty sure we would get a gazzilion push push push advice posts which is what arte villain did and rightly so too

eggie

bops wrote:

very simple reasoning - it you thought the nut flush (if hit) was good on the turn, then there is no reason to think it is not good on the river

V1: unlikely to have boat - surely best smaller imo
V2: may have str8, trips or smaller flush - if he has the boat at leat you get 180 back from the sidepot so not costing you too much


...just my thoughts

This is the key to whether i call the river bets, as villain 2 will call here with just a set (not sure about 2 pair tbh), but sometimes he will have a better hand, what is my read on villain 1? Am i at least ahead of him?

If i think im ahead of villain one, its a positive, as half the time i will beat vilain 2, then its swaying for a call. Villain 3 i have no worries about as he would have repopped it in position with a made hand, i reckon he is also drawing like me. Therefore he is drawing dead on the flush draw.

luckyvegas7

did you call

ianmc38

I fold on the turn alot here.

Fold river as played.

phantom_lord

I think the river is a fold btw.

Bandana boy

eggie wrote:

Villain 3 i have no worries about as he would have repopped it in position with a made hand, .

Why would villain 3 do anything with a made hand other than let a better and 2 callers continue to lead into him

eggie

Bandana boy wrote:

Why would villain 3 do anything with a made hand other than let a better and 2 callers continue to lead into him

because he has to protect his hand against this many players, obviously there is at least one flush draw here.

Vill 1 and 2 can simply call hoping for a push from a draw and call heads up when ahead.

EDIT: on the flop obviously

eggie

ok, put this baby to rest.

When the river bets came in i looked up and down vill 1 & 2, my instincts are quite good in these situations (albeit i did have a few birthday drinks, but in no way was i incapacitated).

I got the vibe form vill 1 that he had nothing too huge, possible he did but didnt feel i was behind him.

Vill 2 scared me because his mannerisms were slightly introverted compared to normal, he has a hand i reckon, but what hand? My gut told me that i was behind here and should fold.

I eventually called based on the reasoning that i only bought in for 150 and if i win the side pot with vil 1 then i,m still in profit (small albeit) for the night and can go home if i lose with nothing to worry about. The size of the pot was also a huge sway towards calling, cause if i do win then happy days.

I call:

Vill 1 turns A A for 2 pair

Vill 3 shows Q high flush,

I show nut flush but still not overly confident as vill 3 hasnt touched his cards yet, normally he gets ready to muck when seeing hes behind. He turns over 8 8 for quads:o

I get the side pot and head home. If i was completely sober here i fold the river, maybe the turn maybe not, their actions on the river give me good folding equity here.

Moral of the story - dont play cards when you have a few beers, even if you are coherent, because you lose your sharpness and think of reasons to call against your gut. The maths side was marginal but i think it was a very interesting hand.

phantom_lord

villain 3 must have been jumping out of his seat after seeing all that action in front of him!

eggie

phantom_lord wrote:

villain 3 must have been jumping out of his seat after seeing all that action in front of him!

vill 3 was not so good, i made a marginal mistake by calling a nut flush draw on the river, he should have mucked easily.

phantom_lord

You've two vill 3s...

I assumed that the second one was the actual 3rd villain.

eggie

phantom_lord wrote:

You've two vill 3s...

I assumed that the second one was the actual 3rd villain.

apologies phantom, vill 1 & 2act before me and vill 3 is behind me. I was referring to vill 3 behind me with the Q flush.

I think this hand emphasises how important position is.

Lets say the turn is the 2s and the river is a blank. I now have the nuts, vill 1 will bet the exact same way because he did it on the river on a more dangerous board. Vill 3 will still overcall as he did on the river.

The only difference here is vill 2's actions. He etiher calls the all in bet or mucks his set. Because i have position i dont have worry about extracting value from my hand, they are doing the betting before it even gets to me. My only decision here is to push or wait a few seconds and push. Still getting max value

Hectorjelly

easy call on flop, easy fold on turn

eggie

Hectorjelly wrote:

easy call on flop, easy fold on turn

Yeah, think calling the turn wasnt such a good idea tbh.

TacT

eggie wrote:

Yeah, think calling the turn wasnt such a good idea tbh.

The board has paired so you show some class and fold there and then, instead of turning into a fish and losing a big pot by donating to anyone that had two pair or a set on the flop. Why anyone wants to draw dead is just beyond me, do you like donating your stack or part of it just because it is profit? I know I don't, regardless of what my original buyin was. Is this thread a cruel joke to test the level of some poker players stupidity perhaps? People chasing straights or flushes on paired boards are fish. Be all and end all of topic discussion.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

eggie

TacT wrote:

you show some class .

Very educational and informative reply demonstrating your unmatched knowledge of the game and players involved, very classy. Thank you, I have learned a lot from your rant:rolleyes: . Tact by name only.