Clinching advise for a street situation.

Baggio...

I was just wondering if anyone has any advise on clinching for the street?

What do you would you Maui Thai guys for for if the opponent has got a really wide stance, and your knees can't reach. Basically when two opponents are locked up, but still looking to keep their balance (arms are still tied up, etc.)

I see Geoff Thompson's advocates head butting and palm striking (if you can break one hand free), but any other ideas would be very welcome (not too man on biting to be honest ).

Cheers,

B.

paddyc

dont matter if he got wide stance or no stance matey.... whats wrong with grabbing him and kneeing him till his mates come to stop ya, if he got a wide base turn the bitch fast and keep kneeing.... pretty much standard thai drilling for the clinch i would have thought?????..... and then run away fast

Baggio...

paddyc wrote:

if he got a wide base turn the bitch fast and keep kneeing.... pretty much standard thai drilling for the clinch i would have thought?????..... and then run away fast

Cool... So just spin him, and continue kneeing to the side? Sounds good to me to.:)

Cheers Paddy.

paddyc

aye you need to clamp him hard with the arms or he fall on his hole....


but i shold also say you better off getting drunk and chattign to fat chicks than fighting



please let clive back me up on this

Baggio...

paddyc wrote:

but i shold also say you better off getting drunk and chattign to fat chicks than fighting

I concur!:) Drinkin' is better than fighting.

Just as an afterthought... say your opponent was considerably stronger than you, would you soften him up with some kind of opening strike before trying to spin him?

And if so, what would you consider a useful tactic to start that move off?

Cheers,

B.

Millionaire

move your head in real fast to side of his face, pull him in real tight , neck, ear, and bite a lump out of him...as you scream like a deranged nutter. had to do this when I got bottled across the face in Israel when the thugs mugged me...that got the guy who smashed me with the bottle out of the way....but did not help with the other 5! LOL!

Other option, is you can break hand free, ram your thumb about 3 inches into his eye. he flinches, you in control for a sec.

Spit into his face, until he flinches, and then you got a second, to regain upper hand.

spoke to guy years ago who was in canadian special forces, and this was the first thing they learned in their informal H2H.... spit, then whack!!!

Neither techniques are nice, but their an option and maybe needed.

Or as Paddy says, turn him fast, and if you can get hands over face...claw shredder style...

Or what I learn up in north thai, they ram both palms up under your chin full blast, crank your head back whiplash style, just about dislocates your neck, and your clinch free...usually followed by a barrage of elbows.

FiannaGym.com

My advice would be to spar loads so that your clinch develops. I can clamp someones head as Paddy described but me doing it and Paddy doing it a worlds appart!
Knowing when to apply pressure, when to bail, when the throw the dude etc etc etc are all inuitive and can only be developed by sparring.

Peace

yomchi

While we're on the subject, is there a reason why some instructors advise not to clasp the fingers together behind the neck? instead they opt for palms together (fingers locked over the back of the hand) while clinching.

judomick

if you clasp your fingers together and your opponent attempts to break your grasp, if your hands are twisted or jolted you could break or dislocate them, plus i think overlapping your hands is stronger and easier to break away if needed, i think interlocking your fingers is perceived to be stronger which is why people do it

Millionaire

Jon wrote:

While we're on the subject, is there a reason why some instructors advise not to clasp the fingers together behind the neck? instead they opt for palms together (fingers locked over the back of the hand) while clinching.

well, if your training Muay Thai for the ring, you will have gloves on, so no fancy finger work there!

I ve see very effective use, again up in NE Thailand, where they are big into clinch style thai, one hand on back of neck, and other on back of head, forearms locked in real tight on side of neck, elbows pinned into your chest, these boys were doing 1 - 2 hours of clinch wrestling a day...and the fookers with this grip were about to crank your head and neck forward to hard and fast, for a knee to the face. I cracked out discs in my back, when one did this one me.

Down in sityodthing camp which is famous too, I do not see this level of clinch work at all.

yomchi

Millionaire wrote:

well, if your training Muay Thai for the ring, you will have gloves on, so no fancy finger work there!

I ve see very effective use, again up in NE Thailand, where they are big into clinch style thai, one hand on back of neck, and other on back of head, forearms locked in real tight on side of neck, elbows pinned into your chest, these boys were doing 1 - 2 hours of clinch wrestling a day...and the fookers with this grip were about to crank your head and neck forward to hard and fast, for a knee to the face. I cracked out discs in my back, when one did this one me.

Down in sityodthing camp which is famous too, I do not see this level of clinch work at all.

from a street point of view, Lee advises not to lock the fingers. Any views on this

Roper

I've never seen anyone decent advising TO lock the fingers. Its bad for so many reasons!

yomchi

Well apart from the dangers to the fingers is there any other?

Baggio...

Cheers for every bodies thoughts....

The reason I'm asking is I was doing a bit of training with a mate of mine recently and we ended up in a clinch. He's 6"3 and 19 and a half stone! So I was having quite a bit of difficulty controlling him. Until I touched his eyes - it definitely gave me the leeway I needed. We were only messing - but it definitely put the frighteners on him for a few seconds.

I guess there are quite a few different ways. Head butts, palms, gouges, etc. But it's just good to hear everyone point of view.

Millionaire wrote:

Other option, is you can break hand free, ram your thumb about 3 inches into his eye. he flinches, you in control for a sec.

I was thinking of that myself... it's Pretty nasty, but it has a good chance of success. And if you can't get you hands free I suppose the butt can come in:).

I also like GT's judo throw he has from the clinch. I think it's an inside reep. He softens them up with a strike and then chuckes 'em.

Jon wrote:

While we're on the subject, is there a reason why some instructors advise not to clasp the fingers together behind the neck? instead they opt for palms together (fingers locked over the back of the hand) while clinching.

Lee always advocates the cupping of the hands rather than interlocking the fingers. I guess it's for the reasons that J.Mick has already said, IE - busting up ones fingers, etc. While I'm no clinching expert, I feel that I get a better control sense if my hands are cupped as opposed to fingers being inter locked. I just feel it's slightly easier to manipulate the opponent with your elbows.

Cheers,

B.

yomchi

judomick wrote:

if you clasp your fingers together and your opponent attempts to break your grasp, if your hands are twisted or jolted you could break or dislocate them, plus i think overlapping your hands is stronger and easier to break away if needed, i think interlocking your fingers is perceived to be stronger which is why people do it

Cheer mick, makes sense.

monkey tennis

Millionaire wrote:

Neither techniques are nice, but their an option and maybe needed.

Werl, if the fecker wanted something nice, he shouldn't have started a fight!

Millionaire

a street fight will move to fast anyway....interlocking fingers on someone who is coked up and trying to kill you...you won;t have a sec to even think about it!

Baggio...

Millionaire wrote:

a street fight will move to fast anyway....interlocking fingers on someone who is coked up and trying to kill you...you won;t have a sec to even think about it!

True... prolly be over before ya' know it (good or bad:) ).

Clive

Try this:

interlock your fingers as if grabbing the back of someone's head and then touch your elbows together. Feel how weak your wrists and grip are?

Then try it with hands cupped - much more leverage, a tighter grip, safer and easier to move the guy.

Also, Paddy is right about the drinking and fat chicks

Millionaire

Clive wrote:

Also, Paddy is right about the drinking and fat chicks

funny you say that...he was banging on to me for months before I left Ireland to take him to Bojangles and then on to Joys Night club.

FiannaGym.com

Basically the cons of interlocking fingures are,
Dangerous as pointed out by JudoMick
Weak as pointed out by Clive

also,

Decreases the amount you can tuck your elbows (one of the most important elements of all grappling)
Decreases Mobility (your hands are always pointing directly inot each other which brings your elbows out and limits forward and back motion of the elbows independent of each other) Which brings me to...
It's 2 hands doing 1 job (people doing this drives me nuts)

To summarise, under no circumstances interlock your fingures.

Millionaire wrote:

Bojangles

Is that where the gang goes?

Peace

Millionaire

a load of over 30s wimiim with bleached blonde hair , would be more bojangles! LOL!!!!

Edited by Mod - while we're all for scaldiness on this board, there are limits

Roper

Millionaire wrote:

a street fight will move to fast anyway....interlocking fingers on someone who is coked up and trying to kill you...you won;t have a sec to even think about it!

Yet if you train it right (without interlocking the fingers) you won't have to think about it, you'll just do it. Same as if you clinch with someone MMA sparring, you do what comes naturally. Generally, in my limited experience, when a total newbie is asked to grab someone in a bodylock or neck tie they lock their fingers. I guess thats what good training is for!


By the way Pearse, Tomangoes is where the gang STILL goes.:D

Millionaire

As a kid. I had some real old 1950s book on wrestling, and the recommended the "Butchers Grip"!

now was that palm to palm hand grip I think?????

Man, and I was just getting into "kratty" kickboxing, and we though this wrestling book was so uncool, dudes with elvis teddy boy hair styles...and we just wanted to be bruce!!! if we only knew!!!! hind sight is great!

Ops. sorry friendly mod! living in thailand, a man does tend to forget the social mores and rules of holy catholic ireland! !!!!

Roper

Gerry, you probably mean the gable grip. Palm to palm, fingers of one hand wrapped over the thumb of the other.

Baggio...

I also found it faster, and more natirual not to lock the fingers.:)

FiannaGym.com wrote:

Decreases the amount you can tuck your elbows (one of the most important elements of all grappling)
Decreases Mobility (your hands are always pointing directly inot each other which brings your elbows out and limits forward and back motion of the elbows independent of each other) Which brings me to...
It's 2 hands doing 1 job (people doing this drives me nuts)

Some good points there....

Cheers,

R.

charley lucky

hi chaps:)
defendo goes on theory that most fights will go to clinch, so has very nice drills for this, i think headbutts, biting, palms, gouges
if its muaythia vs a good wrestler I,d say the wrestler has the advatnge, most times
old style wrestling is really good
best wishes
charley;)

47MartialMan

I rather not clinch.

I dont like the idea of holdong on before my work is done.

judomick

What work is that martial man? what martial arts do you train in?

Baggio...

47MartialMan wrote:

I rather not clinch.
I dont like the idea of holdong on before my work is done.

You can't always avoid it though... Plus, if you can fight at that range you will have a distinct advantage over your opponent, as most people have no idea of how to fight at that range.

47MartialMan

Baggio... wrote:

You can't always avoid it though... Plus, if you can fight at that range you will have a distinct advantage over your opponent, as most people have no idea of how to fight at that range.

In the fighting I have observed, under specific situations, no one thinks of clinching, just bombarting.

I rather not get tied up for any reason.

gymrabbit

47MartialMan wrote:

In the fighting I have observed, under specific situations, no one thinks of clinching, just bombarting.

I rather not get tied up for any reason.

you obviously have not observed many realistic fights.

Baggio...

47MartialMan wrote:

In the fighting I have observed, under specific situations, no one thinks of clinching, just bombarting.

I rather not get tied up for any reason.

The ideal situation for me, is to strike and then escape - I don't want to get particularly tied up with anyone. But after three years of working on the door most people will end up in some kind of clinch - then it goes to the floor. So you need to know how to use it in your favor, and if you know what you are doing - it's not a problem. That said, I would not like to end up in a clinch with a Thai man. But I'd be confident enough against the average scummer.

47MartialMan

gymrabbit wrote:

you obviously have not observed many realistic fights.

You obviously dont know whom I am, where I live, what I do, and what I have seen.

You dont have my eyes, my brain, and my environment.

This is from my observations and there were many.

From many decades and probably before yo were born or knew about such.

I invite you to come here, and I'll show you.

This is not a challenge per a threat, but to actually take you to places, like a field trip, and then you will see.

Now I must state, such of which, ARE MY OBSERVATIONS, in MY ENVIRONMENT.

To which it may be DIFFERENT in yours

(Words in caps are not shouting but emphasis)

gymrabbit

where are YOU? the gulf COAST?

you make a lot of vaque references to this thing and that. but so far, after so many posts, you still haven't contributed to any topic in a meaningful way. secondly, your posts are terribly badly written. please improve.

so perhaps you'll enlighten me

who are you
where do you live
what martial art training have you received
what real life experiences have given you insight on martial arts?
etc.

47MartialMan

gymrabbit wrote:

you make a lot of vaque references to this thing and that. but so far, after so many posts, you still haven't contributed to any topic in a meaningful way. secondly, your posts are terribly badly written. please improve./QUOTE]
In essence of the pot calling the kettle black.....

I have seen many of your post in the same fashion.

What contributions of yours are so great?

What references of yours so absolute?

And speak anout badly written, you don't even use punctuation.

47MartialMan

Baggio... wrote:

The ideal situation for me, is to strike and then escape - I don't want to get particularly tied up with anyone. But after three years of working on the door most people will end up in some kind of clinch - then it goes to the floor. So you need to know how to use it in your favor, and if you know what you are doing - it's not a problem. That said, I would not like to end up in a clinch with a Thai man. But I'd be confident enough against the average scummer.

I am not ruling out clinching.

I have seen in effectively done or maintained.

And, if you dont know your opponents abilities, how can one state that they would not end up in one with a specific opponent?

Doorman have many fighting observations in a specific environment.

I haven't seen many fights going to the floor, per to actually uphold the claim that "a large percentage go to the ground."

And this is how I base my observations-environment specific.

gymrabbit

Ah some of my posts are gems. My posts don't usually lack punctuation they usually lack capitalisation. Not much of what I've said has been disputed by people that use this forum, so I don't need to reference generally accepted ideas.

47MartialMan

Speaking of vague, you didnt even fill out your profile.

47MartialMan

gymrabbit wrote:

Ah some of my posts are gems. My posts don't usually lack punctuation they usually lack capitalisation. Not much of what I've said has been disputed by people that use this forum, so I don't need to reference generally accepted ideas.

Thats because when you find a forum that everyone is on the same page. When you go to another for specific, they probably would run you off.

gymrabbit

i'm a regular user of this forum they all know relevant information.

47MartialMan

I didnt know I was in the graces of a sage.

gymrabbit

sage? i like it. that will be my new moniker.

47MartialMan

gymrabbit wrote:

sage? i like it. that will be my new moniker.

Yes-"Gymrabbit-the Simpleton Sage"

gymrabbit

it has a certain ring to it.

HammerHeadGym

gymrabbit wrote:

you obviously have not observed many realistic fights.

Well, in eleven years in the security industry, I have and I have to say clinch is not that common. Most guys don't like to fight at that range, because most guys have no experience fighting at that range. Maybe one in four fights does clinch become unavoidable unless i choose it. Having said that, I usually do, because of the huge advantage i have over the average drunken ne'er do well.
That's in my experience, which may well be limited to the Dublin pub and club scene. It's an entirely different story in the ring.

Hope this helps or starts a flame war, both are good. Troll FTW!!

HammerHeadGym

Baggio... wrote:

....most people will end up in some kind of clinch - then it goes to the floor...

That's just untrue. I suspect you're quoting Geoff Thompson a bit too much mate...

gymrabbit

47MartialMan wrote:

In the fighting I have observed, under specific situations, no one thinks of clinching, just bombarting.

I rather not get tied up for any reason.

MartialMan actually validates this statement a little bit later. He qualifies it by saying most of the fights he's seen were in pubs or bars. So I would agree, in a space like a pub or a bar you'd expect to see just a couple of punches and then a break up of the fight rather than the squabbling and grasphing at each others cloths that often accompanies fights by drunk people.

I still maintain that a lof of street fightins involve clinch. The longer the duration the greater the proportion of clinch/ground.

HammerHeadGym

gymrabbit wrote:

..The longer the duration the greater the proportion of clinch/ground.

You are spot on here Gymrabbit, this is more due to neither party able to get an upper hand and tiring rapidly than choosing clinch range.

47MartialMan

gymrabbit wrote:

I still maintain that a lof of street fightins involve clinch. The longer the duration the greater the proportion of clinch/ground.

You, or anyone, are entitled to opinion.

However, you can be frolicsome in your post/opinion.

But this can be a deterence of your intellect.

If you look at my words, some of my introduction, I have it that I will not be so.

For example;

In the fighting I have observed, under specific situations, no one thinks of clinching, just bombarting.

The key words here-I have observed. it doesnt point out any many of the quantity. Just my observation.

Along with;
I rather not get tied up for any reason.
The emphasis on I.

To retort with I, "obviously have not observed many realistic fights." is incongruous.

gymrabbit

47MartialMan wrote:

You, or anyone, are entitled to opinion.

However, you can be frolicsome in your post/opinion.

But this can be a deterence of your intellect.

If you look at my words, some of my introduction, I have it that I will not be so.

For example;

In the fighting I have observed, under specific situations, no one thinks of clinching, just bombarting.

The key words here-I have observed. it doesnt point out any many of the quantity. Just my observation.

Along with;
I rather not get tied up for any reason.
The emphasis on I.

To retort with I, "obviously have not observed many realistic fights." is incongruous.

indubitably