Seats in trains, buses, etc.

maireadmarie

There was an article in one of the papers yesterday about pregnant women being unable to get seats in trains, the Luas etc.. What fascinates me is that the people who run these transport companies do not have to ensure that a ticket means a seat for everyone; instead the debate centres around manners, youngsters taking up seats while adults stand, or women being as fit as strong men to stand even while pregant with said presumably strong men's offspring; one of my children who travels regularly to town says there should be a low-fare, standing-only train for able-bodied people, and a normal-fare one for those who really want to sit. What do you all think about this?

Sir Random

maireadmarie wrote:

one of my children who travels regularly to town says there should be a low-fare, standing-only train for able-bodied people, and a normal-fare one for those who really want to sit. What do you all think about this?

It's a good idea in principle, but human nature means everyone will want to board the first train that comes along (if possible).
When 8 carriage DARTs can no longer cope with rush-hour demand, maybe they'll introduce standing-only carriages to increase capacity.

I can remember pre-DART trains, when they converted some of the old rolling stock to standing carriages, with those stackable plastic school chairs bolted to the floor along both sides of the carriage, and metal rails with hand grips down the middle.

Tbh, I'm surprised by that article. I would always give my seat to a more needy person, and I'm usually beaten to it by someone else. My experiences of public transport are mostly from the Bray-Tara St. DART line.

kizzyr

good few years ago my Dad had to go to Cork and decided to take the train. So off he went to Heuston, bought his ticket and went to take his seat on the train but shock horror there was standing room only. However in both of the first class carriages there was only one seat occupied so he took himself off to first class and sat down. A short while later the inspector came along and tried to move him back to cattle class to stand the whole way to Cork. Naturally my father refused, when the inspector pushed it Dad asked him how much a standing space only ticket cost? Mr. Inspector had no answer, and my Dad said there was no way he was paying for a seat to Cork only to be denied it because the powers that be couldn't organise their ticketing properly and so while first class was all but empty he was staying put. Mr Inspector then left him alone.

wyndham

maireadmarie wrote:

one of my children who travels regularly to town says there should be a low-fare, standing-only train for able-bodied people, and a normal-fare one for those who really want to sit. What do you all think about this?

Yes do let us discriminate against the weak and infirm.

Victor

maireadmarie wrote:

one of my children who travels regularly to town says there should be a low-fare, standing-only train for able-bodied people, and a normal-fare one for those who really want to sit. What do you all think about this?

No. Public transport breaks even only because of filling every last space at peak time and by encouraging off-peak travel. It would be a normal fare standing train and a high fare sitting train. While your child may not understand the economics, surely you should?

CathyMoran

I only wish that there could be some way of enforcing a seat policy, would gladly pay more rather than have to fight for the seat, am ill at the moment but do not look it, so having to explain is akward enough...getting a bus this morning but luckily not until after peak hours so I should be fine.

lucernarian

Victor wrote:

No. Public transport breaks even only because of filling every last space at peak time and by encouraging off-peak travel. It would be a normal fare standing train and a high fare sitting train. While your child may not understand the economics, surely you should?

I cannot see where maireadmarie failed to understand anything?

The child in question never even mentioned off-peak vs peak travel. If IR wanted to get the same amount of money, the standing tickets should be a little less than current sitting ticket prices and sitting prices would be more than their current prices. It all depends on how elastic the demand for standing tickets is.

jdivision

There aren't very many seats on the Luas anyway compared to Dart etc. To be honest I was surprised what that woman had to say. Perhaps if she's travelling at peak times people can't actually see that she's pregnant because she's hidden with all the other bodies - only way I can work it out.

CathyMoran

jdivision wrote:

There aren't very many seats on the Luas anyway compared to Dart etc. To be honest I was surprised what that woman had to say. Perhaps if she's travelling at peak times people can't actually see that she's pregnant because she's hidden with all the other bodies - only way I can work it out.

I have cancer which makes me tired, I look healthy! People with hidden disabilities have a really hard time fighting for those seats. I would normally give my seat to a pregnant woman but could not at the moment unfortunatly.

MOH

A large part of the problem I see on the DART at least once a week is where e.g.Dart A is due at 8:30, DART B is due at 8:35, and DART A turns up ten minutes late.
Everyone who would normally get either DART obviously piles onto DART A, because they're already running late for work.
Meanwhile DART B comes along 3 minutes behind and picks up those few people who could afford to wait, or couldn't physically fit on DART A.
And Iarnroid Eireann add insult to injury with a nonsensical or vague excuse involving 'late arrival of an incoming train', or 'operational reasons'.

If the trains ran on time, then situations like these wouldn't arise. I can dream.

Dub13

Moved from Consumer Issues.

Ham'nd'egger

kizzyr wrote:

good few years ago my Dad had to go to Cork and decided to take the train. So off he went to Heuston, bought his ticket and went to take his seat on the train but shock horror there was standing room only. However in both of the first class carriages there was only one seat occupied so he took himself off to first class and sat down. A short while later the inspector came along and tried to move him back to cattle class to stand the whole way to Cork. Naturally my father refused, when the inspector pushed it Dad asked him how much a standing space only ticket cost? Mr. Inspector had no answer, and my Dad said there was no way he was paying for a seat to Cork only to be denied it because the powers that be couldn't organise their ticketing properly and so while first class was all but empty he was staying put. Mr Inspector then left him alone.

I find it absurd and borderline hypocritical that some posters here think it is right and fair to have a different fare to stand and to sit on a train yet they whinge about empty seats in first class on a train and having to pay a supplement to sit on same. What your father did was "fare evasion", no two ways about it; he got what he was to cheapskate to pay for. A fare paid on a train entitles you to travel on it; if you want a sure fire seat, show up early the next time and don't try and scab it on the free and blame it on everyone ahead of him in the queue.

Victor

To_be_confirmed wrote:

The child in question never even mentioned off-peak vs peak travel. If IR wanted to get the same amount of money, the standing tickets should be a little less than current sitting ticket prices and sitting prices would be more than their current prices. It all depends on how elastic the demand for standing tickets is.

A DART carriage has 72 seats (I think some newer ones have more). Full, it can hold 250 people (at Japanese style cramming). How do you suggest it be priced. How do you suggest this pricing be enforced? Would one have to reserved one's seat?

To answer all that. It won't work on a suburban service. It might on a shuttle service and does on InterCity

kizzyr

Hamndegger wrote:

I find it absurd and borderline hypocritical that some posters here think it is right and fair to have a different fare to stand and to sit on a train yet they whinge about empty seats in first class on a train and having to pay a supplement to sit on same. What your father did was "fare evasion", no two ways about it; he got what he was to cheapskate to pay for. A fare paid on a train entitles you to travel on it; if you want a sure fire seat, show up early the next time and don't try and scab it on the free and blame it on everyone ahead of him in the queue.

Wow:( First off my Dad isn't a cheapskate, far from it. His point was that he asked for a seat (not standing room but a seat) and was sold this only to find out that it wasn't available. So why the hell should he have to stand the whole way from Dublin to Cork when he had been sold a seat that didn't exist when there were empty seats on the train? I'm sure that if the person selling the tickets had actually said "we have no more seats at the fare you want available but we do have room in first class would you like one of those?" then he'd have paid for that seat. But no, as many people as wanted tickets were sold them when the seats weren't available so what was he or anyone else meant to do? Those seats were empty so he wasn't robbing them from anyone else who wanted them:rolleyes:

Wishbone Ash

kizzyr wrote:

So why the hell should he have to stand the whole way from Dublin to Cork when he had been sold a seat that didn't exist when there were empty seats on the train?

It stated in the terms and conditions that one is not entitled to a seat in standard class. One is only entitled to travel in the train. By purchasing a ticket one is agreeing to those terms.

Those seats were empty so he wasn't robbing them from anyone else who wanted them

What would be the point in paying a premium for a first class ticket if every Tom, Dick and Harry decided to use it at an ordinary rate. If you paid for premium seats at a concert would you like those who paid the standard rate to join you?

Alun

Hamndegger wrote:

What your father did was "fare evasion", no two ways about it; he got what he was to cheapskate to pay for.

Well, in some countries they have the rule that if the 2nd class compartments are full, then you are actually entitled to use 1st class if there are seats available there. I seem to remember that the Netherlands had such a rule.

loyatemu

I would generally give up my seat to pregnant women, but:

1. There are a lot of fat women about and its not always clear who is pregnant, particularly in winter when everyone is wearing coats
2. If you standing in the area beside the doors, no-one in the seats is going to see you.
3. Most people who are seated are either reading, asleep or staring vacantly out the window.

So if you are pregnant my advice would be, stand beside the seats and make yourself conspicuous. Or just ask for a seat...

Ham'nd'egger

kizzyr wrote:

Wow:( First off my Dad isn't a cheapskate, far from it. His point was that he asked for a seat (not standing room but a seat) and was sold this only to find out that it wasn't available. So why the hell should he have to stand the whole way from Dublin to Cork when he had been sold a seat that didn't exist when there were empty seats on the train? I'm sure that if the person selling the tickets had actually said "we have no more seats at the fare you want available but we do have room in first class would you like one of those?" then he'd have paid for that seat. But no, as many people as wanted tickets were sold them when the seats weren't available so what was he or anyone else meant to do? Those seats were empty so he wasn't robbing them from anyone else who wanted them:rolleyes:

I'll tell you why he should stand, because there wasn't any seats for him. It seemed to suit everybody else to stand, just not his royal self! Next time, get him to arrive earlier or book a seat or pay the supplement, and don't pretend the system is wrong when it don't quite suit you right at the time. Everybody knows that trains are packed at certain times, so you have to accept that this is the way and deal with it.

kizzyr

Hamndegger wrote:

I'll tell you why he should stand, because there wasn't any seats for him. It seemed to suit everybody else to stand, just not his royal self! Next time, get him to arrive earlier or book a seat or pay the supplement, and don't pretend the system is wrong when it don't quite suit you right at the time. Everybody knows that trains are packed at certain times, so you have to accept that this is the way and deal with it.

My dad rarely travels by train, this time he did because he was following the rest of us down to Cork where we were on holidays. He had stayed behind to attend a funeral of a colleguge who had died. My mum drove to Cork with the rest of us and so he had to take the train down therefore he was unaware of how ridiculous the train transport situation in this country is (on a side note this was in 1989 isn't it wonderful to know that things have improved so much on the trains in this country:rolleyes: ). I don't think he will be taking the train again, now that he is almost 70 years old the desire to stand for 4 hours doesn't run too deep.
Re: earlier question if I was at a concert and had paid for a seat and there were empty ones around me and someone else sat there? it wouldn't bother me.

cast_iron

kizzyr wrote:

I'm sure that if the person selling the tickets had actually said "we have no more seats at the fare you want available but we do have room in first class would you like one of those?" then he'd have paid for that seat.

That's impossible to know. People buy monthly tickets and the like, so you can never be sure how many people are actually going to use the train at any given time.

kizzyr wrote:

Those seats were empty so he wasn't robbing them from anyone else who wanted them:rolleyes:

Maybe not at Heuston, but possibly a stop or two down the line. And i'm sure your father would have been only too delighted to move then - especially after his little hissy-fit with the conductor.

That's one of the reasons why the rule is structured as is.

kizzyr wrote:

My dad rarely travels by train

So his ignorance excuses all...:rolleyes:

kizzyr wrote:

I don't think he will be taking the train again, now that he is almost 70 years old

Ah sure he'll have free travel on the trains in no length:p

Stimpyone

Personally if I was using DART/LUAS I wouldn't expect a seat as journey times are short, however if I paid 60 euros to travel from Dublin to Cork for example I would expect to be seated (how long is that journey anyway ).

This is the main the reason myself and I suspect many other don't use Irish rail. I can't believe that anybody can be defending Irish rails policy on this matter! . Any intercity train I have traveled in throughout Europe and the States have been a numbered seat affair.

Fair play to your father Kissyr for not accepting a substandard service, I only wish that more people did the same, people power and all that;) .

kizzyr

cast_iron wrote:

That's impossible to know. People buy monthly tickets and the like, so you can never be sure how many people are actually going to use the train at any given time.


Maybe not at Heuston, but possibly a stop or two down the line. And i'm sure your father would have been only too delighted to move then - especially after his little hissy-fit with the conductor.

That's one of the reasons why the rule is structured as is.


So his ignorance excuses all...:rolleyes:


Ah sure he'll have free travel on the trains in no length:p

My poor Dad:eek: he really is getting it in the neck from you lot today isn't he?
1) the number of people who hold monthly or weekly tickets simply cannot create such a demand on a mid week middle of the day service. Other countries can manage their systems so that this doesn't happen so why can't we? Why should anyone have to pay full fare to STAND the whole way to Cork? Why? If there aren't enough seats stop selling tickets, this is the way it works on an aeroplane so why not a train?
2) The inspector didn't get on the train in Heuston, some part of the journey had already gone when he got on so this wasn't an issue.
3) It wasn't a hissy fit that my father had with the inspector. He merely stated his case, that he had paid for a seat, he had paid for something that wasn't availalable and so shouldn't have been sold to him and so given that there were empty seats he didn't see the reason why he should stand like a muppet while looking at an empty carriage. If the inspector had asked him to pay the difference I'm sure he would have but he didn't and left him.
4) I'm not saying ignorance is a defence I was only informing the original person who had a go at him that he doesn't travel by train often and so was unaware that idiots are in charge of our public transport system.

b3t4

Kizzyr, I don't believe your information is adding anything to this thread as what you are speaking about happenned in 1989. I'll outline the current situation below.

Dublin-Cork journey is genearlly 3hrs in duration. It can sometimes be 10 to 20mins over this but it depends on the number of stops it makes on the way down.

A person can now book a seat on irishrail.ie at no extra charge. If you book a seat you get a seat. There is also the availability of ticket only tickets which I would presume do not guarantee you a seat.

I booked a seat on my journey down to Cork on Friday. Even though they managed to mess things up with adding extra carriages due to over booking which messed up the seating numbers (I'm thinking this is a teething problem and will be sorted out) everyone managed to get a seat who had asked for one when booking.

As for giving up a seat for someone who needs it I do this often. I've no problem standing for a journey whereas someone else might not therefore I always give up my seat if someone needs it. It's just common sense to me.

A.

cast_iron

kizzyr wrote:

1) the number of people who hold monthly or weekly tickets simply cannot create such a demand on a mid week middle of the day service. Other countries can manage their systems so that this doesn't happen so why can't we?

Mid-day, mid-week services are rarely full these days. Your example is not the norm.

kizzyr wrote:

If there aren't enough seats stop selling tickets, this is the way it works on an aeroplane so why not a train?

It's quite simple really. Safety. Planes these days can't facilitate people standing during take-off and landing (though give Mr. O'Leary time...)

Also, when a plane is full - that's it. Not the case with trains. At busy times, people will stand.
It's not Japan we're in - no one forced your father onto the train. His choice was to get on and stand, or wait for the next one.

kizzyr wrote:

2) The inspector didn't get on the train in Heuston, some part of the journey had already gone when he got on so this wasn't an issue.

Again, you miss the point. Be it 1, 10 or 100 stops in, the point is the same. Just because it didn't happen in this case means absolutely nothing.

kizzyr wrote:

3) It wasn't a hissy fit that my father had with the inspector. He merely stated his case, that he had paid for a seat, he had paid for something that wasn't availalable and so shouldn't have been sold to him and so given that there were empty seats he didn't see the reason why he should stand like a muppet while looking at an empty carriage.

Maybe it was different in '89, i'm not that old to know - but was there an option to buy a seat or buy standing room? Somehow, i doubt it.

Wishbone Ash wrote:

It stated in the terms and conditions that one is not entitled to a seat in standard class. One is only entitled to travel in the train. By purchasing a ticket one is agreeing to those terms.

You can't seem to grasp this. Again, ignorance is not an excuse.

kizzyr wrote:

If the inspector had asked him to pay the difference I'm sure he would have but he didn't and left him.

If only our politicians had memories to be able to recall what happened nearly 20 years ago...:rolleyes:

kizzyr

cast_iron wrote:

Mid-day, mid-week services are rarely full these days. Your example is not the norm.


It's quite simple really. Safety. Planes these days can't facilitate people standing during take-off and landing (though give Mr. O'Leary time...)

Also, when a plane is full - that's it. Not the case with trains. At busy times, people will stand.
It's not Japan we're in - no one forced your father onto the train. His choice was to get on and stand, or wait for the next one.


Again, you miss the point. Be it 1, 10 or 100 stops in, the point is the same. Just because it didn't happen in this case means absolutely nothing.


Maybe it was different in '89, i'm not that old to know - but was there an option to buy a seat or buy standing room? Somehow, i doubt it.

You can't seem to grasp this. Again, ignorance is not an excuse.


If only our politicians had memories to be able to recall what happened nearly 20 years ago...:rolleyes:

Either way whether this happened in 1989, 1999 or even if it happens in 2009 I do not see how what he did was wrong and I do not think it is wrong that if there are seats going un used on a train that people take them rather than stand.:mad: Its a pity that all of you who are having a go at someone for sitting down rather than standing when a seat was left empty and would have remained so don't put your energies into having a go at the ineffective people who are supposedly delivering a service if you can call it that and see it improved.

Ham'nd'egger

kizzyr wrote:

Either way whether this happened in 1989, 1999 or even if it happens in 2009 I do not see how what he did was wrong and I do not think it is wrong that if there are seats going un used on a train that people take them rather than stand.:mad: Its a pity that all of you who are having a go at someone for sitting down rather than standing when a seat was left empty and would have remained so don't put your energies into having a go at the ineffective people who are supposedly delivering a service if you can call it that and see it improved.

No, what's a pity is that you are making a big deal about your Dad not paying for a first class seat and having a go at Irish Rail and it is all about a trip he took 17 years ago and that you refuse to accept that passage on a train sadly does not guarantee anybody a seat unless one orders it.

kizzyr

Hamndegger wrote:

No, what's a pity is that you are making a big deal about your Dad not paying for a first class seat and having a go at Irish Rail and it is all about a trip he took 17 years ago and that you refuse to accept that passage on a train sadly does not guarantee anybody a seat unless one orders it.

I'm trying to defend my Dad against the onslaught here thats all:) I'm sure he doesn't wake in a cold sweat in the dead of night remembering the trip:p I was telling the story to show that far from improving over the years things on trains have only gotten worse. That there are empty seats there and they aren't all taken by first class passengers so why not make them available to the rest of those using the train and that some sort of system should be put in place that stops the over crowding of trains especially on long journeys like (dare I say it??) the (now infamous) one my (mean spirited, hissy fit throwing, cheap skate) father took.
I think that this has to be the end of this for me. I don't think my Dad did anything wrong here, obviously there are those of you who think he deserves to be hung drawn and quartered for sitting down and never the twain shall meet.

cast_iron

kizzyr wrote:

I don't think my Dad did anything wrong here,

And that's the saddest part of it all.

kizzyr

cast_iron wrote:

And that's the saddest part of it all.

How :rolleyes: Why is it such a problem for you? There were seats going empty and he sat in one rather than stand for 4 hours. Either way I couldn't be bothered with this anymore. The train service as with most other public services in this country is pathetic and I'm being generous in saying that. SFA is done to improve the situation, there are elderly, sick, pregnant etc people standing on over crowded trains and buses every day while they pay full fare for an almost non existant service and all our politicians seem to want to do is tell us all to use public transport more while doing nothing to make it in any way attractive or feasible an option for many people.
I think at this stage my father and his trip can be left out of this, you've made your feelings perfectly clear and how sad you are about them. :rolleyes:

albermarle

kizzyr wrote:

How :rolleyes: Why is it such a problem for you?

Agreed, why is it such a personal issue for the other posters?

If Kizzyr's dad had stood for the whole journey, looking in to an empty carriage, he would have been crazy.

I can't be sure obviously, but I think I would do the same. I would of course offer to pay the difference if challenged by an inspector.

There are so many examples of genuine chancery going on in this country that to get so condescendingly irate at what Kizzyr's dad did is beyond me.

jd

To get back on topic, you don't pay for a seat on commuter services anywhere I can think of, and it wouldn't be reasonable for everyone to expect to. On a related note, I think it is crazy to extend the free travel scheme to peak hours.

_Kaiser_

I'd look at it like this...

For services such as the DART, Bus, LUAS etc, one shouldn't automatically expect a seat as the services are frequent and (relatively) short.

However...

For longer inter-city journey's, such as the Dublin-Cork by train example, they should indeed stop selling tickets once all seats are sold, or "upgrade" passengers to "first class" (though what exactly makes it that much better to justify paying the premium is beyond me) if seats are available.

As for whoever suggested "get the next one" - well with a journey time of 3 hours and maybe a 2 hour gap in the timetable, I wouldn't have stood all the way either if seats were clearly available just to satisfy CIE's just-keep-packing-em-in-rather-than-address-the-problem-properly-through-more-services-and-higher-capacity-trains mentality. I'm sure they'd have people hanging off the side of trains and on the roof like they do in places like India if they thought they'd get away with it.

Sounds like typically Irish begrudgery that Kizzyr's Dad took some initiative, sat down and argued the point. The rest of you would probably just whinge but do nothing more by the sounds of it, which is ironically WHY things are the way they are in this country.

John R

Kaiser2000 wrote:

For longer inter-city journey's, such as the Dublin-Cork by train example, they should indeed stop selling tickets once all seats are sold,

Have you not read the thread? cast_iron already pointed out that there is no way of knowing how many passengers there will be for any specific train.

Season ticket holders can travel at any time, return tickets are valid for a month. Even single/outward portions of return tickets are not issued for specific trains, you can buy one at 9am and use it on any train that day.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

or "upgrade" passengers to "first class" (though what exactly makes it that much better to justify paying the premium is beyond me)

Bigger seats; more legroom; less crowded; less chance of being stuck in a carriage with crying babies or drunken scum.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

As for whoever suggested "get the next one" - well with a journey time of 3 hours and maybe a 2 hour gap in the timetable,

the alternative of stopping selling tickets would have meant just that happening. He would have turned up and been tolt the train was booked out and would he like to travel on the next train with free seats in 3 days time

Wishbone Ash

John R wrote:

Bigger seats; more legroom; less crowded; less chance of being stuck in a carriage with crying babies or drunken scum.

And the newspaper, communications facilities, stationery, food, drinks and no queuing.

Metrobest

I think that decades of the Irish Rail monopoly have conditioned Irish people to accept s.h.i.t.t.y levels of service.

Kizzy's old man was 100% right to take the vacant seat in first class. I would have done the exact same.

One of my last "experiences" of Irish Rail was a trip to Ennis via Limerick last year. To my horror, I arrived ten minutes before the 2pm to discover the train was jammed. I managed to squeeze into the dining carriage where I found myself standing all the way to Portlaoise. To pass the long journey, I got chatting to two businessman who had paid for first class tickets but guess what? Even first class was full. They had to stand too. Nowhere to be seen was an inspector, and lucky for him he didn't show, because everyone's blood was boiling.

Worst of all was a layover in Limerick and then a crappy little Arrow stopping at every tree along the way to Ennis. And the price of the ticket? Scandalous.

I also don't accept the argument that people must be crammed in like lemmings. Adequate capacity and punctuality would go a long way to relieve overcrowding.

b3t4

Did anyone read my post at all??

Metrobest, I presume you were travelling from Dublin to Ennis. If so you are now able to book a seat for the Dublin to Limerick Junction part of that journey at irishrail.ie

Things have changed guys. Whinging about what happened in the past isn't doing anyone any good.

A.

cast_iron

Kaiser2000 wrote:

Sounds like typically Irish begrudgery that Kizzyr's Dad took some initiative, sat down and argued the point. The rest of you would probably just whinge but do nothing more by the sounds of it, which is ironically WHY things are the way they are in this country.

The only whinger in this case was Kizzyr.
And i certainly don't begrudge his father anything.

If truth be told, i may well have done the same myself. We shouldn't have to accept standing the whole way to Cork from Dublin after the outrageous prices they charge.

But that wasn't my arguement - i can accept that if i did take the seat - it would be wrong, as i hadn't paid for it, kizzyr doesn't seem to understand this straight forward logic.
I remember the days the conductor used to direct us to 1st class when the train was full.

cast_iron

b3t4 wrote:

Did anyone read my post at all??

Metrobest, I presume you were travelling from Dublin to Ennis. If so you are now able to book a seat for the Dublin to Limerick Junction part of that journey at irishrail.ie

Things have changed guys. Whinging about what happened in the past isn't doing anyone any good.

A.

These people are using one bad example to dismiss the whole train service.

Now i've travelled on trains before and stopped (as i takes just as long to travel down the west as the bus does - yet they charge twice the price!)

But rather than sit here and whinge/begrudge, i voted with my feet.
My point is - that's how it is, and if you don't like it, lump it....

....Or complain about that relatively isolated incident 2/10/20 years ago.

YoYOPowder

Hamndegger wrote:

What your father did was "fare evasion", no two ways about it; he got what he was to cheapskate to pay for. A fare paid on a train entitles you to travel on it; if you want a sure fire seat, show up early the next time and don't try and scab it on the free and blame it on everyone ahead of him in the queue.

What a TWAT

kizzyr

cast_iron wrote:

These people are using one bad example to dismiss the whole train service.

Now i've travelled on trains before and stopped (as i takes just as long to travel down the west as the bus does - yet they charge twice the price!)

But rather than sit here and whinge/begrudge, i voted with my feet.
My point is - that's how it is, and if you don't like it, lump it....

....Or complain about that relatively isolated incident 2/10/20 years ago.

Arrgh talk about banging my head against a brick wall. The incident I described was used to show that things are even worse now that they were all that time ago. I am not whinging about the incident I was merely relaying it for that purpose. It became an issue due to the tirade of abuse against my father and I then and would again defend him to the hilt in the face of the OTT unreasonable abuse directed against him for this.
Your argument about people voting with their feet makes perfect sense doesn't it:rolleyes: So every single person who is unhappy with the service provided by Dublin Bus decides to drive to work, every person who is unhappy with the LUAS, DART etc all decides to drive?? Nice solution to the problem there, the country would be one great traffic jam 24 / 7 :rolleyes:

cast_iron

Again, you don't appear to understand me, which is why i don't intend posting on this again.

I moved from one public transport to another (train to car) - not into a car.

And here's the funny bit - you ask
"what if everyone jumped into a car because train/bus/whatever didn't suit them?"
and i asked you earlier
"what if everyone decided they would jump into 1st class because standard class was full?"
- you have two different views on the same principle (albeit different workings), but i don't suppose you see the irony??

OTK

kizzyr's father did not have the right to sit in first class. He was allowed to do it because the Irish Rail inspector felt sorry for him or couldn't be bothered doing his job. The average Irish person only travels on intercity trains a couple of times a year and can't be expected to have read the t&cs (unlike the posters in this forum). The rule stating that a ticket does not entitle you to a seat should be displayed on all trains and tickets.

The ticket checking staff should ask young people to give up their seats to pregnant and old people as they move through the carriages. As they can't be bothered doing the basics of their jobs I can't see this happening.

I have done the same as kizzyr's da on occasion and the inspector has let me stay in the seat. But I'm a bit of a scumbag and I do lots of dodgy stuff.

Victor

YoYOPowder wrote:

Hamndegger wrote:

What your father did was "fare evasion", no two ways about it; he got what he was to cheapskate to pay for. A fare paid on a train entitles you to travel on it; if you want a sure fire seat, show up early the next time and don't try and scab it on the free and blame it on everyone ahead of him in the queue.

What a TWAT

Banned. Although, I'm not sure who you are abusing.

Ham'nd'egger

Victor wrote:

Banned. Although, I'm not sure who you are abusing.

Nor am I but it was just himself that looks the twat after it all

ComeOnMeath

Hamndegger wrote:

Nor am I but it was just himself that looks the twat after it all

Hmm it seems that in Sport they say retaliation is worst than the offence first committed. But on Boards this is not so. We had someone clearly calling Ham'nd'egger a Twat. He was rightly banned. Ham'nd'egger then insinuates that the accuser is a Twat and gets off scott free. Can you explain your reasoning for this Victor? Remember you must at all times take a neutral stance and your position can not be seen as one that is imbalanced but impartial.

monument

Sir Random wrote:

Tbh, I'm surprised by that article. I would always give my seat to a more needy person, and I'm usually beaten to it by someone else. My experiences of public transport are mostly from the Bray-Tara St. DART line.

As regular red line Luas user, I can say there’s a lack of etiquette with at least a distinct minority.

I think it wouldn’t be as striking if it didn’t compare badly to the apparent etiquette on my daily Dublin Bus journey – even if it’s one of the routes which have smoking ban exemptions upstairs at the back seats.

A notable amount of Luas users can’t comprehend that people need to get off the tram too. Blocking the person’s exit from the tram doesn’t help them get on, this eludes some.

Sir Random wrote:

and I'm usually beaten to it by someone else.

Not my experience on the Luas. It usually looks like a combination of people being zoned out or couldn’t care less.

Hamndegger wrote:

What your father did was "fare evasion", no two ways about it; he got what he was to cheapskate to pay for...

Wishbone Ash wrote:

It stated in the terms and conditions that one is not entitled to a seat in standard class. One is only entitled to travel in the train. By purchasing a ticket one is agreeing to those terms.

The poster said that most of the first class seats were empty while the other seats were full. So, I don’t get the problem.

I thought I was anal about rules; you two give me some hope in myself.

Wishbone Ash wrote:

What would be the point in paying a premium for a first class ticket if every Tom, Dick and Harry decided to use it at an ordinary rate. If you paid for premium seats at a concert would you like those who paid the standard rate to join you?

Exactly how many concerts have mixed seating and standing areas?

Ham'nd'egger

ComeOnMeath wrote:

Hmm it seems that in Sport they say retaliation is worst than the offence first committed. But on Boards this is not so. We had someone clearly calling Ham'nd'egger a Twat. He was rightly banned. Ham'nd'egger then insinuates that the accuser is a Twat and gets off scott free. Can you explain your reasoning for this Victor? Remember you must at all times take a neutral stance and your position can not be seen as one that is imbalanced but impartial.

The sheer irony of it all

Victor

ComeOnMeath wrote:

Hmm it seems that in Sport they say retaliation is worst than the offence first committed. But on Boards this is not so. We had someone clearly calling Ham'nd'egger a Twat. He was rightly banned. Ham'nd'egger then insinuates that the accuser is a Twat and gets off scott free. Can you explain your reasoning for this Victor? Remember you must at all times take a neutral stance and your position can not be seen as one that is imbalanced but impartial.

Take it to the Feedback board.

parsi

There's war at All_ireland weekends when people can't get a reservation for the train. I can imagine the war that would erupt if they made Friday trains reservation only - people would still preder to stand and moan (but get there) rather than book late and not get a ticket...

netwhizkid

I can remember sleeping up on suitcases in the luggage place in between the carriages on a normal train to Dublin for a Kerry match a few year back, most uncomfortable seating ever. There must have been over 1,000 people on that train. If you pay a fare you should be guaranteed a seat regardless. However see my signature below

Red Alert

I can speak up for some people that don't automatically instantly give up their seat. I worked in a clothes shop in town, and used to get the Green Line LUAS home. Sale time involves 8 hours standing in a shop floor, angry/frustrated customers, annoying kids, club-level sound system, roasting hot environment, the Scooby-Do video on repeat etc. When I sat down in the LUAS on the way home, unless it was an old person I just wasn't in the mental or physical mood to get up, and was probably so zoned out I wouldn't notice anyone getting on in the first place.

Now that I'm basically doing my own hours in postgrad and spend the day much more relaxed sitting down, I'll be the first up to offer someone a seat if they need it. Just take a look next time at the person you're expecting to offer it up before you - they might have had a harder day than you!

Cathy does bring up the point of having a non-obvious disability/illness. I spent the best part of 3 months or so on crutches, and the amount of help I got both on transport and in shops (esp the one above where i worked) was breathtaking. When my physio said to ditch the crutches (so I'd improve more), it's much harder for a well-built 20 year old to ask for or get help or allowances. I'd have been afraid of asking for a seat, for fear of the reaction it might produce. I certainly would always take someone at face value if they asked for the seat, and just give it to them.