"Unlimited Free Vodafone to Vodafone Calls for Life"?

krpc

Having read the thread about the "Mobile Connect Card - Unlimited Data Bundle" and the manner that Vodafone advertise it as "unlimited" but in fact it is not but rather have a "hidden limitation" that customer's are not advised of nor is it placed in the T & C's, I am curious to know if there are other services that Vodafone offer that seem to be a marketing scam. In other words, are there other services out there that Vodafone falsly advertise in order to entice people onto contracts but ultimately are unable to render the services?

Is there a "hidden limitation" on the "Call A Friend For Free" offer, or the ""Unlimited Free Vodafone to Vodafone Calls for Life" offer (that are both offered as "unlimited") for example?

Does the offer "Unlimited Free Vodafone to Vodafone Calls for Life" mean that I could call someone and stay on that call for as long as I like and "Make as many calls as you like, whenever you like" like the website says?

120_Minutes

the call a friend for free number must be a vodofone customer, which is pretty pointless if you take a higher tarrif that gives you free voda calls anyway...

on mid tarrifs its call a friend for free for up to 50/100 mins a month.

krpc

I agree 100% on that.

The reference I was making however was are those services that Vodafone are advertising and thus offering actually "unlimited" or is it just a scam like the mobile connect card offer?

In other words, if I signed up to a contract and availed of this "Unlimited Vodafone to Vodafone Free Calls for Life", used it as the title suggests "unlimited" and was making a lot of lenghty calls, would Vodafone then slap me with a warning demanding I cut down the usage even though they offered it as "unlimited"?

Does "unlimited" really mean "unlimited" or is Vodafone using a different dictionary to the rest of us?

chrislad

From their terms and condtions on the website. Pretty standard fare really.


Vodafone operates a Fair Usage Policy. It is important to Vodafone that all eligible Vodafone customers are able to access our services. Accordingly, we have devised a fair use policy which applies to Free Vodafone Calls Add On. Vodafone may rely on this fair use policy where your usage of the Service is excessive or unreasonable as detailed in this paragraph. Vodafone has developed the Service and the related tariffs by reference to average customer profiles and estimated customer usage of the Service (particularly the estimated volume and length of free calls likely to be made by users). If, at the absolute discretion of Vodafone, Vodafone is of the opinion, that your usage of the Service materially exceeds these estimated use pattern over any month, Vodafone may contact you to advise you that your usage exceeds its fair use policy. If the excessive usage continues after receipt of a request to desist from or alter the nature of such usage, Vodafone reserves the right to charge you for the excessive element of your usage at your price plan's standard rate or to suspend, at its absolute discretion, modify or restrict your use of the Service or to withdraw your access to the Free Vodafone Calls Add On.

krpc

Yes. I looked at that too.

However, the question is then, how can Vodafone term something as "unlimited" when essentially it isn't? Basically the existence of a fair use policy places a "limit" on one's usage so that it certainly isn't "unlimited" as advertised.

In addition, as with the mobile connect card thread, what is fair use? It states a user's usage must be consistent with the "average" user, but how am I or the next customer to know what is average so that they stay within the limits that they set? It seems Vodafone have introduced this and left it pretty vague so that they can suit themselves.

Furthermore, the website offering states make as many calls as YOU like, whenever YOU like but the fair use policy obviously contradicts this. Is this as the thread suggests, a complete and utter marketing scam?

All in all, I would imagine this is false advertising - offering a service that is "unlimited" when it clearly is not.

failsafe

The data and the voice limitations are different. With the mobile connect card, they do impose a fair usage policy so that the network isn't overburdened or bogged down, but not so with the unlimited voice calls.

The Call a friend for free is limited on the lower tarriffs (it's 50 or 100 mins, which is stated in the prices list) and there is no unlimited call a friend for free in the higher tarriffs anymore because all vodafone numbers are free (ie everyone on vodafone is your call a friend for free!) and that is actually unlimited, so you can sit on the phone all day and night and not get stopped.

chrislad

Meteor do the same thing for their Free Texts/Calls.

Meteor operates an Acceptable Usage Policy (AUP). It is important to Meteor that all eligible Meteor customers are able to access our services. If your usage of the Free Meteor Talk & Text Promotion (“the Promotion”) is excessive or unreasonable in Meteor’s reasonable opinion, this will not be deemed acceptable usage.. Meteor has developed the Promotion by reference to average customer profiles and estimated customer usage of the Promotion (particularly the estimated volume and length of FREE Calls or Texts likely to be made by users). If, Meteor is of the opinion, that your usage of the Promotion materially exceeds these estimated use patterns over any month, Meteor may contact you to advise you that your usage exceeds its AUP. If excessive usage continues after receipt of a request to desist from, or alter the nature of such usage, Meteor reserves the right to charge you for the excessive element of your usage at your price plan's standard rates or to suspend, at its absolute discretion, modify or restrict or terminate your use of the Promotion.

It's just common sense. It happened to Digifone a few years back when they offered unlimited dial up for 20 a month or something. I knew people who had it on 20 hours a day. Digifone eventually cut them off. It's just there to cover their backs in case you have people literally on the phone 24 hours a day costing them a fortune just to use their minutes.

I've never actually heard of anyone being cut off though.

Anyways, all these terms and conditions are public knowledge. Yes, it's a tad misleading if you plan to use the phone 24 hours a day, but for 99% of people, it's perfectly right.

krpc

Again, understandable.

However, the fact remains, just because it is industry standard, it doesn't automatically become acceptable. For example, if 3 large companies decide to start pillaging and plundering a population, is it acceptable just because it exists and no one challenges them? The answer is no.

Indeed, 99% of the population might be satisfied, but regardless, an unlimited service is being offered that cannot be rendered even if it is only to 1% or less. If companies like Vodafone are allowed to adopt some policies without contestation, what comes next? Give an inch, they will take a mile.

The fair use policy for Vodafone in particular cannot protect them against something when they themselves advertise it as "unlimited". It is at the very core misleading as chrislad mentioned, and blatant false advertising.

As a point of note, I do know someone that was cut off for this.

krpc

failsafe wrote:

The data and the voice limitations are different. With the mobile connect card, they do impose a fair usage policy so that the network isn't overburdened or bogged down, but not so with the unlimited voice calls.

The Call a friend for free is limited on the lower tarriffs (it's 50 or 100 mins, which is stated in the prices list) and there is no unlimited call a friend for free in the higher tarriffs anymore because all vodafone numbers are free (ie everyone on vodafone is your call a friend for free!) and that is actually unlimited, so you can sit on the phone all day and night and not get stopped.

I think the above is the point I am attempting to make. In signing a contract, all that is advertised regarding this offer is "UNLIMITED VODAFONE TO VODAFONE FREE CALLS FOR LIFE". It is unlimited or at least it is suppose to be. This fair use policy Vodafone has clearly conflicts this offer and is entirely and intentionally misleading which results in false advertising. So, essentially, a person can't sit on the phone all day and night and not get stopped.

Just as a curious note, what is people's definition of unlimited? Just so we are all on the same wavelength, does "unlimited" mean ... yanno ... no limit or do we use Vodafone's definition over the Oxford English Dictionary and say ... "unlimited ... well .... yeh ... it's kinda no limit, but at the same time it's limited too"?

ns06

As a customer who's had their own issues with Vodafone and their whole "Unlimited" fiasco I am 100% behind this thread.

Once a company like Vodafone realises they can't just sh*t all over the little guys, then a precedent will be set that will make others that may wish to follow suit take heed and rethink their next marketing campaign. A bold statement and some may think idealistic, but hey, if I or you don't think that we can make a difference then what the hell are any of us doing on these forums in the first place!?

flodis79

chrislad wrote:

Anyways, all these terms and conditions are public knowledge. Yes, it's a tad misleading if you plan to use the phone 24 hours a day, but for 99% of people, it's perfectly right.

Thus they shouldn't cut off that 1 percent who is using the service excessively, becuase that percentage will not make the net collapse.. OMG, there is no threat scenario that 4 million Irish customers should use these offers 24 hours a day... It's just childish of Vodafone to stop a deal that is UNLIMITED!!!! The resources are there.

krpc

I couldn't have sait it better!

I must admit, I find it remarkable how it is difficult for Vodafone to comprehend the word "unlimited". I really, really do. "Unlimited" means "unlimited", "no limits" - nothing else.

chrislad

Getting even more technical, it is unlimited according to their terms and conditions. I'm pretty sure the poster as a little asterix beside the word Unlimted, saying that Terms and Conditions apply. Yes, it is marketing. It's good marketing. There's always small print. The average user wouldn't use more than 500 free minutes a month, and this doesn't include the inclusive minutes to other networks.

At the end of the day, it is clever, if a tad misleading, marketing, and it's a technique that is used worldwide, and not just by Vodafone. Also, when people sign up for this, they agree to the fair use policy. It's not Vodafones fault if they don't read the T+Cs. Granted, very few people do, but they are available in the public domain.

Urban Weigl

As long as you don't "abuse" the service by using it for data or as a monitoring service somehow, e.g. you only use it to make actual phone calls, I don't see why there should be ANY limits. Especially at these prices.

In Germany, you can get Base, which gives you unlimited calls to all German landlines as well as unlimited calls to all of the E-Plus network for €25 a month. If you're a student, you get it for €20. From what people tell me, is it truly unlimited as long as you use it for normal phone calls, and don't use it to monitor something 24/7 for instance.

krpc

I agree on that, but it is apparent that Vodafone do not.

In a recent move, Vodafone disconnected a person that used the "Unlimited Vodafone to Vodafone Free Calls for Life" stating that the usage was excessive. The calls that were made were to another person (there was no data usage, illegal usage or anything of that nature) but Vodafone deemed it "excessive" and terminated the service. How can one use a service excessively when it is advertised as "unlimited"?

As I mentioned in the first post in this thread, it does appear that Vodafone are conning people. It's strange, a con man would be imprisoned for something like this, however Vodafone continue on taking advantage of customers on the belief that they can stomp all over the little guy without contest.

Urban Weigl

Perhaps it's time to switch to O2 Business Unlimited? €20 a month, albeit that's excluding value added tax, and I have not heard about anybody being disconnected for "excessive usage" yet, even though I have several clients on it who do use it a lot.

yapyap

Why don't you complain to the advertising standards authority?
BTW, with landline free call packages, calls up to 1 hour are allowed and after that a per second charge applies. What would you consider fair use? I guess that Vf have to be wary of guys using SIM boxes to route calls off other networks to Vf numbers and making a packet on it.
The guy you know that was disconnected, what package was he on and how many Vf minutes was he using and what proportion of his total minutes were on Vf?
Whatever percentage of the market that Vf have, I suppose they expect a similar percentage to be on network. Notwithstanding the above if the advertisement says free minutes, then it should be free minutes. After all in order to qualify, you have to be spending a minimum of €69/month to avail of the offer.

krpc

yapyap wrote:

Why don't you complain to the advertising standards authority?
BTW, with landline free call packages, calls up to 1 hour are allowed and after that a per second charge applies. What would you consider fair use? I guess that Vf have to be wary of guys using SIM boxes to route calls off other networks to Vf numbers and making a packet on it.
The guy you know that was disconnected, what package was he on and how many Vf minutes was he using and what proportion of his total minutes were on Vf?
Whatever percentage of the market that Vf have, I suppose they expect a similar percentage to be on network. Notwithstanding the above if the advertisement says free minutes, then it should be free minutes. After all in order to qualify, you have to be spending a minimum of €69/month to avail of the offer.

In regards to the ASAI, I believe a complaint has been lodged and the matter is being investigated. Although, ASAI aren't known for competence, just like COMREG.

I would consider fair use to be usage that is consistent with that which is on offer. In order words, if something is unlimited, it should be unlimited. If something has a cap and is advertised as having a cap, then I would consider remaining within that cap, fair use also. I do not believe it is right or sound to be able to place fair use policies on something that is offered as unlimited in order to limit or restrict usage. It is quite misleading and thus false advertising. If fair use policies are to be applied however, I believe the onus is on the supplier / provider to ensure that the policies are clear, concise and understandable. I do not believe a customer should be responsible for having to guess what fair usage might be as I might consider 400 minutes fair use while someone else might consider 4000 minutes to be.

If I recall the person I know that was disconnected was on either Perfect Fit 400 or 600. It was one of those two tariffs both of which fall within the E69 quota. There were calls being made to O2 numbers and Meteor numbers that were taken from the person's allowance. In terms of the free calls, those calls were being placed on a regular basis to a select few numbers that were all Vodafone. There was ABSOLUTELY no illegal activities going on, and Vodafone were aware of that.

I hope the above helps provide some background on the matter.

krpc

Urban Weigl wrote:

Perhaps it's time to switch to O2 Business Unlimited? €20 a month, albeit that's excluding value added tax, and I have not heard about anybody being disconnected for "excessive usage" yet, even though I have several clients on it who do use it a lot.

I personally am on O2 (although have business numbers on Vodafone) and have never ever, ever, ever had a problem with the service that is provided, offered, advertised etc .,.

BuffyBot

I would consider fair use to be usage that is consistent with that which is on offer. In order words, if something is unlimited, it should be unlimited.

Well, you're definition is wrong then. The use of the term "unlimited" has a fairly chequered past in the telecommunications industry, and I'm surprised companies keep using it. However, it is snappy and attention catching, which is what they care about I guess.

Fair use clauses are fairly widespread now, and if people truely believe that "unlimited" really means do whatever you like for as long as you like..well, I'm not sure what I'd call them. It probably wouldn't be complimentary, however.

krpc

You are of course entitled to your opinion, as much as I am - in that I believe you are incorrect. If your assumption is that "unlimited" does not actually mean unlimited, you may wish to inform dictionary.com, amongst others, that their definition of unlimited is incorrect also.

As a point of note, the dictionary.com definition of "unlimited" is as follows:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.0.1) - Cite This Source
un‧lim‧it‧ed  /ʌnˈlɪmɪtɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhn-lim-i-tid] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective 1. not limited; unrestricted; unconfined: unlimited trade.
2. boundless; infinite; vast: the unlimited skies.
3. without any qualification or exception; unconditional.

Pretty clear, I would imagine.

BuffyBot

That's your definition of the term "fair use"? Interesting definition..

krpc

Nope.

That's my definition of "unlimited" which negates any need for a defintion of fair use as simply put, you cannot put a limit (fair use) on something that is termed "unlimited".

mcc06

BuffyBot wrote:

Well, you're definition is wrong then. The use of the term "unlimited" has a fairly chequered past in the telecommunications industry, and I'm surprised companies keep using it. However, it is snappy and attention catching, which is what they care about I guess.

Fair use clauses are fairly widespread now, and if people truely believe that "unlimited" really means do whatever you like for as long as you like..well, I'm not sure what I'd call them. It probably wouldn't be complimentary, however.

How rude.

ns06

I don't know how clear someone needs to be to explain the word unlimited nowadays? Obviously very clear!

BuffyBot - Are you just arguing for the sake or argument? It really looks like you are. Telefunktastik's made some excellent points regarding the wording of Vodafone's false advertising, whereby it cloaks the whole tariff in a haze of ambiguity where the "Unlimited Free Vodafone to Vodafone Calls For Life" comes into play.

Plain and simple, Vodafone are falsely advertising a service they cannot offer.

BuffyBot

Vodafone are falsely advertising a service they cannot offer.

Then quite a few other telecom operators are guilty as charged also..

krpc

BuffyBot wrote:

Then quite a few other telecom operators are guilty as charged also..

Indeed. I am pleased that we finally agree that they, and perhaps other networks, are guilty of false advertising.

However, this thread read relates to "Unlimited Vodafone to Vodafone Free Calls For Life" and the false manner in which Vodafone advertise it. I, personally, am only concerned with Vodafone as I have a vested interest in that matter. If other networks practice marketing and advertising standards similar to Vodafone I am confident that those customers affected will take the appropriate action.

Thanks for your contribution nonetheless.

chrislad

I doubt you will get anything for the simple reason is that Vodafone are advertising it as Terms and Conditions apply. Yes, the big word is Unlimited, and if this were touted without Terms and Conditions visible, then you would have a case. Those terms and conditions don't come into major conflict with the nature of the offer, so as it stands, I see this as a waste of time on your side. I can 100% see your point but fair use policies and limits on call duration (which is easily bypassed by hanging up and calling again) are essential to these offers to a) maintain a level of network stability and b) to stop people using them for the wrong reasons, which have already been mentioned.

ns06

It seems to have everything to do with it. Using a word such as unlimited to promote an offer and then having a stipulation upon that offer is a blatant disregard of advertising standards that should and need to be enforced. Remember, it is the operators responsibility to promote their offers in the best interests of their customers, not just themselves. Not only does their whole marketing campaign harp on about free this and free that, they're going out with slogans such as "Make as many calls as you like, whenever you like" and "That means calls between over 2 million people - all free!"

If you're going to advertise a service then actually provide it, don't just talk about it!

chrislad

Again, it's being advertised an Unlimted, Terms and Conditions apply to it being unlimited. Nothing wrong with it in advertising terms. The word unlimted it just there as a hook.

krpc

... and that is the point of this thread. It is indeed there as a hook, and ultimately Vodafone are unable to honor that which they promote. In other words, the "product" or "service" is falsely advertised.

Simply put also, just because Vodafone have a statement about term & conditions being applicable does not make them justified in their action. It just further demonstrates Vodafone's disregard for a) the service b) the customer c) the English language.

failsafe

So, has anyone here actually had a negative experience with this unlimited offer (i.e. the calls, not the data one) or is the whole thread over the fact that they have the potential to limit the service?

dub_skav

I am interested in this thread as I would like to know what people think. Obviously some people will look to use this service in a way that may be deemed unfair by some, but opinions are varied on this.

Telefunktastic and others seem to be stating that VF are blatantly falsely advertising this service. The OP asked people to state their experiences with this offer, none have been given (not first hand or in detail anyway). Nobody has given a positive or negative experience of this service.

Has anybody used it?

Leaving out the "Unlimited Data Bundle" - which is discussed in another thread - and the semantics around unlimited, how have people found this offer?

neacy69

the definition if unlimited in this case i think to mean that they haven't limited your free calls like they would have in the past for example previously you were limited to 50mins a month for free now its is unlimited the amount of mins you can use althought hey have the fair usage policy previously discussed so it is unlimited but they have protected themselves from people taking the p'ss

krpc

failsafe wrote:

So, has anyone here actually had a negative experience with this unlimited offer (i.e. the calls, not the data one) or is the whole thread over the fact that they have the potential to limit the service?

Yup, although indirectly. A friend of mine used the service as advertised - unlimited. Vodafone were not pleased with this and deemed it "excessive usage" quoting the fair policy. My friend respond via letter inquiring as to how something that is advertised as unlimited could actually have a limit through the existence of a fair use policy. Vodafone ignored this, to this date have not responded, but in the meantime, terminated the service and now are seeking termination charges for a contract they terminated. I believe also that Vodafone conducted themselves through the entire affair in a quite ... illegal ... fashion using practices similar to that of "Big Brother" (not the TV show, but rather monitoring calls, breaching privacy laws and data protection).

My friend has since been in contact with the ASAI, Comreg and a solicitor.

krpc

neacy69 wrote:

the definition if unlimited in this case i think to mean that they haven't limited your free calls like they would have in the past for example previously you were limited to 50mins a month for free now its is unlimited the amount of mins you can use althought hey have the fair usage policy previously discussed so it is unlimited but they have protected themselves from people taking the p'ss

I agree that this is the precise reason that the policy was introduced. However, I still find it difficult how it can be sound to have something that limits an unlimited service.

Take the "AFT" service for example. It's called "Almost Free Text". It's not completely free so cannot be advertised as "Free Text" or "Absolutely Free Text". It's almost free text and is advertised like that, so that people know what they are getting or signing up for. Now that is what I would call fair advertising.

krpc

Vodafone confirmed the fair use policy on the "Unlimited Vodafone to Vodafone Free Calls for Life" was 4000 minutes. The phrase that was used was "It is unlimited, there's no limit, but there is a fair use policy that is set internally that limits usage to 4000 minutes".

Okay, so that is Vodafone saying, all in the one line, this offer is unlimited, but it's not. Sounds very Little Brittain-ish - "Yeh but, no but, yeh but".

I understand there are those that argue that this is industry standard but I completely fail to see how it is acceptable to advertise a service as "unlimited" when clearly it is not.

Tarakiwa

telefunktastik wrote:

I understand there are those that argue that this is industry standard but I completely fail to see how it is acceptable to advertise a service as "unlimited" when clearly it is not.

1 easy way to see if it is acceptable would be to make a complaint to the Advertising Standards Authority of Ireland ( www.asai.ie )

They can make an independent judgement!

It might be worthwhile submitting a complaint on behald of the board members ....... we could start to keep score ........

Big Company 0 - Boards 1 !!

krpc

A complaint has been registered with the ASAI, COMREG, and a local TD. In addition I believe a solicitor has been consulted and consideration is being lent over whether or not to approach the media. I think even the Sultan of Brunei might have got a memo on the whole thing lol

Tarakiwa

telefunktastik wrote:

A complaint has been registered with the ASAI, COMREG, and a local TD. In addition I believe a solicitor has been consulted and consideration is being lent over whether or not to approach the media. I think even the Sultan of Brunei might have got a memo on the whole thing lol

Wow - have you registered these complaints?? You will have to keep us all posted on how you get on!

krpc

I personally haven't registered the complaints, but they have been lodged. As soon as I get updates I'll pass them on here. It appears however that more people than one might suspect have had issues with Vodafone and this offer.

ns06

I'm sure more people have had problems with this offer as 4000 minutes does not in the slightest sound unlimited or even close!

Urban Weigl

That's only 2 hours a day. I know many people who yak on the phone for longer than that.

ns06

Let's see how it all pans out, as it may be a bit of discrimination if it's found out that other customers who have used the tariff for more than this are getting away with it.

Tarakiwa

telefunktastik wrote:

I personally haven't registered the complaints, but they have been lodged. As soon as I get updates I'll pass them on here. It appears however that more people than one might suspect have had issues with Vodafone and this offer.

Yeah - good point. There may be several people complaining about this!

krpc

I was being vague on purpose lol I know for certain that a LOT of other people have registered complaints with the ASAI about this falsely advertised offer.

ns06

So telefunktastik, any update yet?

krpc

There is none at the moment.

I am still quite baffled as to how Vodafone can and continue to term 4000 minutes as "unlimited". I LOVE how it does not state this amount ANYWHERE in contracts or T & C's, but is set, and I quote ... "internally". Customers, the people signing up to these contracts aren't informed ... yet those employed in Vodafone (though most obviously not those at the bottom of the food chain in that big building in Leopardstown ... yanno the one's that actually deal with customer queries) know of it. Ha! Sounds quite legal, sound, ethical etc to me ... yeh ... sure.

If there was a restriction on something denoted as "unlimited", as much as I oppose it, it should be at least something that is quite beyond the reach of customers to exceed. Business customers would easily use minutes pass this amount and I wonder if precious business / corporate accounts would have their contracts terminated for breaching the 4000 minutes in the same manner that my friend, a lowly single line personal account, was. I highly doubt it.

As the thread subject states, and I note again - "Unlimited Free Vodafone to Vodafone Calls for Life" - Marketing Scam?

I guess it has been answered.

what_car

telefunktastik wrote:

I was being vague on purpose lol I know for certain that a LOT of other people have registered complaints with the ASAI about this falsely advertised offer.

hi whats going on i i tried to access ns06 thread on
Vodafone Mobile Connect Card - Un(limited) Data Bundle??

and it says i dont have access? whats the story

krpc

It appears the thread was deleted. I've fired a message off to the moderators to see what is going on. NS06, since you began the thread, maybe you should fling a message in their direction.

Vexorg

The thread was removed as Boards.ie got a solicitors letter. I am sure you can understand we can say no more.