omaha advice on a couple of hands

nicnicnic · 25-10-2006 3:40am #1

I've been playing Omaha for about a month now. When i started i expected to lose a few k before i picked it up but surprisingly i have been doing rather well. I haven't read any books (holdem either) as i feel the best teacher is experience and i know that in general I've got good card sense for most games. however naturally as a novice i find that i don't really know what to do in many situation's.

the following are two hands i played tonight, it just so happens that i won both but both are on my mind.

the first hand i lunch-boxed on the river, what i need feedback on is my call on the flop, is it bad and if so how bad is it.

the second hand i floped the nuts house with a open ended straight flush draw. I pot and another player re pots I've got about $500/550 left behind and push it in he folds. Should i slowplay and just call here, he has me covered.

HAND 1

Game #3748009984: Omaha PL ($2.50/$5) - 2006/10/24 - 22:30:40 (ET)
Table "Busan" Seat 9 is the button.
Seat 1: lykosss ($517.50 in chips)
Seat 2: nameless ($782.25 in chips)
Seat 3: What_ever ($1178.75 in chips)
Seat 4: DonJuan1 ($67.50 in chips)
Seat 5: chilin_d ($1349 in chips)
Seat 6: dawdip24 ($334.50 in chips)
Seat 7: s2p0a0c1e ($574 in chips)
Seat 8: ratsamee ($1001.87 in chips)
Seat 9: _--__--_ ($624 in chips)
Seat 10: sidsnot ($778.50 in chips)
sidsnot: posts small blind $2.50
lykosss: posts big blind $5
chilin_d: posts big blind $5

HOLE CARDS

dealt to sidsnot [7h Qd 6s Qs]
nameless: folds
What_ever: folds
DonJuan1: calls $5
chilin_d: raises to $22.50
dawdip24: calls $22.50
s2p0a0c1e: calls $22.50
ratsamee: calls $22.50
_--__--_: folds
sidsnot: calls $20
lykosss: folds
DonJuan1: calls $17.50

FLOP

[5s 4s 5c]
sidsnot: checks
DonJuan1: bets $45 and is all-in
chilin_d: calls $45
dawdip24: folds
s2p0a0c1e: folds
ratsamee: folds
sidsnot: calls $45

TURN

[5s 4s 5c][9c]

sidsnot: checks
chilin_d: checks

RIVER

[5s 4s 5c 9c][Qh]
sidsnot: bets $110
chilin_d: folds
Returned uncalled bets $110 to sidsnot

SHOW DOWN

sidsnot: shows [7h Qd 6s Qs] (A Full House, Queens full of Fives)
DonJuan1: shows [6d 5d 9s 7s] (A Full House, Fives full of Nines)
sidsnot collects $272 from Main pot

SUMMARY

Total pot $275 Main pot $272 Rake $3
Board [5s 4s 5c 9c Qh]
Seat 1: lykosss (big blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: nameless folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: What_ever folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: DonJuan1 showed [6d 5d 9s 7s] and lost
Seat 5: chilin_d (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 6: dawdip24 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: s2p0a0c1e folded on the Flop
Seat 8: ratsamee folded on the Flop
Seat 9: _--__--_ (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: sidsnot (small blind) showed [7h Qd 6s Qs] and won ($272) with A Full House, Queens full of Fives

HAND 2

Game #3748011784: Omaha PL ($2.50/$5) - 2006/10/24 - 22:47:15 (ET)
Table "Busan" Seat 1 is the button.
Seat 1: lykosss ($614.50 in chips)
Seat 2: udonthani ($322 in chips)
Seat 3: What_ever ($1133.25 in chips)
Seat 4: DonJuan1 sits out
Seat 5: chilin_d ($1181.50 in chips)
Seat 6: dawdip24 ($199 in chips)
Seat 7: s2p0a0c1e ($606.25 in chips)
Seat 8: kootie sits out
Seat 9: _--__--_ ($783 in chips)
Seat 10: sidsnot ($1055 in chips)
What_ever: posts small blind $2.50
chilin_d: posts big blind $5

HOLE CARDS

dealt to sidsnot [7s Ts 9c 9d]dawdip24: folds
s2p0a0c1e: calls $5
_--__--_: raises to $22.50
kootie sits back
sidsnot: calls $22.50
lykosss: calls $22.50
What_ever: folds
chilin_d: calls $17.50
s2p0a0c1e: calls $17.50

FLOP

[9s 8c 8s]
chilin_d: checks
s2p0a0c1e: checks
_--__--_: checks
sidsnot: bets $115
lykosss: folds
chilin_d: raises to $460
s2p0a0c1e: folds
_--__--_: folds
sidsnot: raises to $1032.50 and is all-in
chilin_d: folds
chilin_d sits out
Returned uncalled bets $572.50 to sidsnot
chilin_d sits back
sidsnot: doesn't show hand
sidsnot collects $1032 from Main pot

SUMMARY

Total pot $1035 Main pot $1032 Rake $3
Board [9s 8c 8s]
Seat 1: lykosss (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: What_ever (small blind) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: chilin_d (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: dawdip24 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: s2p0a0c1e folded on the Flop
Seat 9: _--__--_ folded on the Flop
Seat 10: sidsnot collected $1032

careca · 25-10-2006 7:45am

First hand is terrible. You have to think your straight is no good even if you hit it, so you're drawing to two Qs. I would def let this go on the flop. This is where its totally different to holdem. You see so many players in omaha who can't let a big pair go (mainly AA) post flop.

Second hand, depends on your style of play. You could just call his bet and let him bet again on the turn and hopefully stack him but I don't mind the reraise too much. He most likely has an 8 but if you gave him a free card with AA or KK and he hits, then you get stacked. I'm sure most will say call his bet and let him bluff off more on the turn but I'm more of a get em and bet em player after getting burned too many times, slow playing.

fuzzbox · 25-10-2006 8:34am

First hand bites as careca says.

2nd hand - really there is no need to re-raise him. Just call, and let him bet the turn.

Daithio · 25-10-2006 8:37am

I call the first hand. I mean you're getting five to one, the guy has to bet his $45 there really, after putting in 22.50 preflop out of 65. It's quite likely you're going to get to check it down unless somebody's beating you anyway, so if you're straight/ flush draws do happen to be good you'll get to see two streets. I call that there every time personally.

The 2nd one I think you played fine too. I mean he's put in $450, you're going all in for double that, you have to think he'll call after putting in that much. Also he'll call here alot with a bigger flush draw and a straight draw (which will both be dead) thinking that he's pot committed. If you flat call here and it turns out he is drawing you're only going to get paid if he hits.

ianmc38 · 25-10-2006 8:45am

Nicky hand 1 is serious spew. It's very rare your draws will be live here and you'll more than likely be drawing to two outs.

In hand 2. I'd call his raise and check the turn, value betting the river if he checks behind on the turn. No need at all to reraise here again.

Pushing isn't horrible as with 460 invested you'd think he's playing for his stack with any 8...

Daithio · 25-10-2006 8:48am

fuzzbox wrote:

2nd hand - really there is no need to re-raise him. Just call, and let him bet the turn.

I don't agree with this. There are three possibilities for what he has. 1) he's completely bluffing 2) he has a decent 9 or 89xx, and 3) he has a big draw (the board being paired won't put alot of these muppets off a draw)

I think more often than not it's either 2) or 3), and you have more of a chance of getting his money off of him on the flop in both of these scenarios. Granted, if he is purely bluffing then letting him bet the turn would be better, but most of the time he has some piece of it and will consider himself pot committed to call on the flop, whereas a scary turn might let him lay it down.

gosplan · 25-10-2006 9:23am

Read some books!!!

I'm not knocking you or anything, it seems obvious that you're a good player and I agree with you about experience mattering most.

It would be kind of foolish to continue investing so much money in the game without making an effort to find out as much as you can. I mean there are quite clever people who've written about it and can teach you a lot.

If you don't read books then why read and get advice on boards?

fuzzbox · 25-10-2006 9:25am

Daithio wrote:

I don't agree with this. There are three possibilities for what he has. 1) he's completely bluffing 2) he has a decent 9 or 89xx, and 3) he has a big draw (the board being paired won't put alot of these muppets off a draw)

I think more often than not it's either 2) or 3), and you have more of a chance of getting his money off of him on the flop in both of these scenarios. Granted, if he is purely bluffing then letting him bet the turn would be better, but most of the time he has some piece of it and will consider himself pot committed to call on the flop, whereas a scary turn might let him lay it down.

WE have position.
What scary turn cards are there?
He cant exactly check/fold the turn after a big c/r like that, can he?

carfax · 25-10-2006 9:28am

My thinking is that both hands were played well.

Hand 1; You called one small bet on the flop with flush, straight and over pair possibilities and there is a real chance that these hands are live when the player that has chips left doesn't re-raise the all-in player.

Hand 2; Definitely the right play. You have the deck tied up, the only way you are going to get his money in the pot is by re-raising and letting him think you are drawing.......If he has even an eight he calls, he probably laid down the Ace high flush draw.

If you just flat call the re-raise on the flop you not only give free card(s) to let, say A-A-K-K catch up, but you also get no more money in the pot thereafter 'cos he knows you have the nuts (although you only had second nuts) by flat calling.

Nice raise Mr. "Don't re-raise Nicnicnic or he'll re-re-raise you, oh yeah!" ...
I think you got the most possible out of the hand.

fuzzbox · 25-10-2006 9:28am

Daithio wrote:

I don't agree with this. There are three possibilities for what he has. 1) he's completely bluffing 2) he has a decent 9 or 89xx, and 3) he has a big draw (the board being paired won't put alot of these muppets off a draw)

I think more often than not it's either 2) or 3), and you have more of a chance of getting his money off of him on the flop in both of these scenarios. Granted, if he is purely bluffing then letting him bet the turn would be better, but most of the time he has some piece of it and will consider himself pot committed to call on the flop, whereas a scary turn might let him lay it down.

Btw - in the games that I play - he hardly ever has 9x here if ever.
If he has 89 then he puts the rest in regardless of the turn card, so we lose nothing by calling.
If he has 8x then he will almost certainly put the rest in on the turn also.
If he has a big draw, then what scary cards are there? If he is drawing, then those scary cards will hit his draw - and thus he will put his money in on the turn.

I dont get your reluctance to allow your opponent to draw dead for the cost of his whole stack.

fuzzbox · 25-10-2006 9:29am

carfax wrote:

If you just flat call the re-raise on the flop you not only give free card(s) to let, say A-A-K-K catch up, but you also get no more money in the pot thereafter 'cos he knows you have the nuts (although you only had second nuts) by flat calling.

This type of thinking costs a lot of people a lot of money.

carfax · 25-10-2006 9:34am

fuzzbox wrote:

Btw - in the games that I play - he hardly ever has 9x here if ever.
If he has 89 then he puts the rest in regardless of the turn card, so we lose nothing by calling.
If he has 8x then he will almost certainly put the rest in on the turn also.
If he has a big draw, then what scary cards are there? If he is drawing, then those scary cards will hit his draw - and thus he will put his money in on the turn.

I dont get your reluctance to allow your opponent to draw dead for the cost of his whole stack.

The thinking is basically that he will figure he is drawing dead if you just flat call.

If he has 8-9 the money is going in on the flop just as soon as any other street (if he thinks its winning).....In my experience of internet poker, he's calling there. In live poker 8-9 would often be laid down on the flop to the second re-raise.

I suppose everyone has a different opinion, it just depends on your style of play. There really isn't a right and wrong way to play any hand, let alone the stone colds.

ianmc38 · 25-10-2006 9:42am

The cold call of the bet in hand 1 is scarier for me than an isolating raise.

There are very few if any Omaha players that would laydown 89 on that board whether the game is live or online. I certainly wouldnt. 99% of PLO players will play 8xxx in the exact same way so laying down 89 would be seriously -EV.

If the player has a big wrap with a flush draw then let him get there and think his hand is good. 3-betting accomplishes nothing other than announce that you have the nuts and scare off big draws and possibly 8xxx.

fuzzbox · 25-10-2006 9:57am

carfax wrote:

The thinking is basically that he will figure he is drawing dead if you just flat call.

If he has 8-9 the money is going in on the flop just as soon as any other street (if he thinks its winning).....In my experience of internet poker, he's calling there. In live poker 8-9 would often be laid down on the flop to the second re-raise.

I suppose everyone has a different opinion, it just depends on your style of play. There really isn't a right and wrong way to play any hand, let alone the stone colds.

Precisely how does somebodies style of play make any difference here?

Nobody lays down 98 here so the objective is not to make the most from 98, the objective is to make the most from all the other possible hands he might have, including big draws, 8xxx and any other bag of rubbish he might have.

gosplan · 25-10-2006 10:15am

Gotta agree with the consesus on this one.

The most outs he can possibly have is 4 and I doubt he'd make that play with two overpairs.

I'd be content to take a while, call this and led him fire away on the turn.

The only way I'd reraise is if there were more players involved.

Edit: Didn't notice the straight flush draw as well. Doesn't make a huge difference but nice.

luckylucky · 25-10-2006 10:19am

just have had a quick look at this post - i haven't seen anyone mention the pre-flop call on the 1st hand of a raise in the small blind with 7h Qd 6s Qs. I would have said this was an automatic fold in that position with so little invested in the pot.

Though thinking about it a bit more - with so many callers and if u have a good chance of getting paid off if u hit top set i could understand the call, still though far from automatic to call there I think.

carfax · 25-10-2006 11:25am

I've seen it work out for both plays in the past, but I personally prefer the three bet re-raise....

5starpool · 25-10-2006 12:10pm

carfax wrote:

I've seen it work out for both plays in the past, but I personally prefer the three bet re-raise....

In PLO you would have to be an idiot to call the 3 bet with a wrap and a flush draw on that board tbh.

nicnicnic · 25-10-2006 2:09pm

Cheers gents, app the feedback ,if daithio and carfax are with me then I'm now happy with the way I played them. Doesnt mean i played them right though.

gosplan as for the book thing, well i think its down to understanding how you learn. I think with me it stems back to when i was in college studying accounting/math based subjects. I always ended up with 1:1 grades basically without books, finding how understand subjects through making mistakes ( I had no secondary school education when i entered college as a mature student, so probably had a more open mind towards the learning process).

I approach poker in the same manner. If i make a mistake which costs me i feel I'm alot less likely to make that mistake again then if I had read about it in a book. Also I've have seen decent players totally fcuk up there games after reading harrington or super systems for example.

A good mate of mine who is an avid reader of poker books can point out the harrington and say super system clones. This guy is playing harringtons game or doyles. I may be misguided but i don't want to play like these guys deliberately if that's how my game develops then so be it but i don't want to try and play like anyone.

As for not reading books and reading boards for example. Well a forum it interactive and discussion based offering many alternate views

MrPillowTalk · 25-10-2006 3:00pm

fuzzbox wrote:

Precisely how does somebodies style of play make any difference here?

Nobody lays down 98 here so the objective is not to make the most from 98, the objective is to make the most from all the other possible hands he might have, including big draws, 8xxx and any other bag of rubbish he might have.

Have to agree with fuzz here, flat calling has to be the best play.

Lafortezza · 25-10-2006 3:07pm

nicnicnic wrote:

HAND 2
Game #3748011784: Omaha PL ($2.50/$5) -

dealt to sidsnot [7s Ts 9c 9d]
FLOP
[9s 8c 8s]
chilin_d: checks
s2p0a0c1e: checks
_--__--_: checks
sidsnot: bets $115
lykosss: folds
chilin_d: raises to $460
s2p0a0c1e: folds
_--__--_: folds
sidsnot: raises to $1032.50 and is all-in
chilin_d: folds
chilin_d sits out
Returned uncalled bets $572.50 to sidsnot
chilin_d sits back
sidsnot: doesn't show hand
sidsnot collects $1032 from Main pot

In this one you have a huge hand, you want Villain to have something like AKQ8 and hit since he'll have a 2nd best hand. The only things you have to fear are runner runner cards for Villain, or if he hits a bigger full house with an over pair, like QQ, which is very unlikely.
You also don't want to price him out if is playing with a big draw, wrap plus flush.
Call the flop raise, then lead the turn for an amount that will making getting all-in on the river easy.

omaha advice on a couple of hands

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