Was sixpac's all-in call bad play with A8s here?

sixpac911

Table Name Hand ID Game Stakes
MTT Table 1 12542294-34 Holdem No Limit 150/300
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : Hand Start.
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : Seat 1 : FEAR AN TI has $1,450
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : Seat 2 : DALYO has $4,260
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : Seat 3 : astitim has $2,635
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : Seat 4 : doncarlosuk has $4,550
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : Seat 5 : Sixpac912 has $2,545
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : Seat 7 : katonga has $7,650
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : Seat 8 : MAD MIMA has $1,660
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : Seat 9 : slimcity has $2,350
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : astitim is the dealer.
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : doncarlosuk posted small blind.
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : Sixpac912 posted big blind.
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : Game [34] started with 8 players.
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : Dealing Hole Cards.
[Oct 24 23:49:06] : Seat 5 : Sixpac912 has 8s As
[Oct 24 23:49:10] : katonga called 300
[Oct 24 23:49:14] : MAD MIMA called 300 and raised 1,360 and is All-in
[Oct 24 23:49:14] : slimcity folded.
[Oct 24 23:49:15] : FEAR AN TI folded.
[Oct 24 23:49:15] : DALYO folded.
[Oct 24 23:49:18] : doncarlosuk : had k 10
[Oct 24 23:49:18] : astitim called 1,660 and raised 975 and is All-in
[Oct 24 23:49:18] : Under-Raise rules are now in effect.
[Oct 24 23:49:21] : doncarlosuk folded.
[Oct 24 23:49:23] : Stakes: 150/300 Current level: 5 Level up in: 7 min. Break in: 22 min. Players : 15
[Oct 24 23:49:25] : doncarlosuk : wanted a q
[Oct 24 23:49:32] : Sixpac912 called 2,245 and is All-in
[Oct 24 23:49:33] : katonga : u ll never know
[Oct 24 23:49:42] : katonga folded.
[Oct 24 23:49:42] : Showdown!
[Oct 24 23:49:42] : Seat 5 : Sixpac912 has 8s As
[Oct 24 23:49:43] : Stakes: 150/300 Current level: 5 Level up in: 6 min. Break in: 22 min. Players : 15
[Oct 24 23:49:44] : Seat 3 : astitim has Ah Qs
[Oct 24 23:49:44] : Seat 5 : Sixpac912 has 8s As
[Oct 24 23:49:44] : Seat 8 : MAD MIMA has 9c 9h
[Oct 24 23:49:53] : Board cards [Qd 6s 6d Qc 4d]
[Oct 24 23:49:53] : Seat 3 : astitim has Ah Qs
[Oct 24 23:49:53] : astitim has Full House : Queens full of 6s
[Oct 24 23:49:53] : Seat 5 : Sixpac912 has 8s As
[Oct 24 23:49:53] : Sixpac912 has Two Pair: Queens and 6s
[Oct 24 23:49:53] : astitim wins 1,770 with Full House : Queens full of 6s
[Oct 24 23:49:53] : Seat 3 : astitim has Ah Qs
[Oct 24 23:49:53] : astitim has Full House : Queens full of 6s
[Oct 24 23:49:53] : Seat 5 : Sixpac912 has 8s As
[Oct 24 23:49:53] : Sixpac912 has Two Pair: Queens and 6s
[Oct 24 23:49:53] : Seat 8 : MAD MIMA has 9c 9h
[Oct 24 23:49:53] : MAD MIMA has Two Pair: Queens and 9s
[Oct 24 23:49:53] : astitim wins 5,430 with Full House : Queens full of 6s
[Oct 24 23:49:59] : Sixpac912 : nh
[Oct 24 23:50:00] : DALYO : vnh
[Oct 24 23:50:01] : doncarlosuk : nh
[Oct 24 23:50:03] : Stakes: 150/300 Current level: 5 Level up in: 6 min. Break in: 21 min. Players : 15
[Oct 24 23:50:04] : astitim : ty
[Oct 24 23:50:07] : doncarlosuk : ouch
[Oct 24 23:50:08] : Hand is over.

phantom_lord

Very bad, I wouldn't call one never mind two all-ins with a8s.

Lazare

Google Gap concept.

ArmaniJeanss

Its not a good call.
With two all ins ahead of you, generally your best possible situation is that either your Ace or your 8 is alive, i.e. that you are up against 2 paired hands in which case your A is alive, or 2 A8+ hands in which case your 8 is alive.

However a lot of the time you will be the poker equivalent of snookered, up against a better Ace and a pair higher than your 8, as here.

A rule of thumb worth following is that you need QQ+ or AK at the very least to be calling 2 all-ins, and a lot of players wouldnt even consider AK.

cooker3

Against 1 player with just 5*bb it is ok as he has a wide enough range but against 2 players, it is a insta-fold unless you had 1 hell of a read

phantom_lord

I much rather have 23o.

Hawk Eye

what are all you talking about, hes priced in he's only got 7 big blinds left after posting his BB, this is standard for sixpac.
Instant call

Sangre

Fold, you're probably drawing dead.

Hawk Eye

Sangre wrote:

Fold, you're probably drawing dead.

drawing dead preflop i guess thats possible if two aces & 8's ,spades and all str8 possibilities are gone but having prior knowledge of that from this action would be hard to fathom.

Rnger

Hawk Eye wrote:

what are all you talking about, hes priced in he's only got 7 big blinds left after posting his BB, this is standard for sixpac.
Instant call

this is just plain wrong imo. Theres no point putting your money in if your miles behind. How is he priced in? what do you think the other two players do this with that you can beat?

Hawk Eye

After the limper, the allin range is basically any two. The 2nd allin knows this and pushes with any pair,any broadway

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 23.7049 % 22.86% 00.85% { random }
Hand 2: 42.0144 % 41.08% 00.94% { 66+, ATs+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 3: 34.2807 % 33.12% 01.16% { A8s }

anyone that disagrees needs to have a good look at their tournament game.

Hawk Eye

I guess this is the big difference between winning and losing players spotting a plus expectation call.
And I don't won't to hear that he can wait for a better spot, he's got A8s with no one to act behind.

EDIT: forgot about the UTG limper, meh hes probably folding to 3 allins.

Rnger

are you saying the 1st player is capable of making a push like this with 32o? I obv dont know the player personally but even the biggest donkey dosent do this. The second player does not call with JT,QT,KT. According to the range your putting the players on, yes this is a good call as you need 33%+ chance of winning this for it to be profitable. The range your putting these players is inccorrect.

This is an absolutely terrible call

Hectorjelly

I would fold here and im surprised there is any debate. Hawk eye your ranges are totally off the wall.

cooker3

phantom_lord wrote:

I much rather have 23o.

don't get me started on that!

phantom_lord

Hawk Eye wrote:

After the limper, the allin range is basically any two.

Can you explain that one to me? I would have thought that after a limper utg you've a tighter range than when folded around to you?

I really don't get how you can say after a limper, and with the full table to act, you think the utg+1 range is any two.

he's got A8s with no one to act behind.

Just two all-ins in front...?

sixpac911

I was knida looking at the pot odds with the two all in players in front of me and thinking the small flush draw chance made the A8 a little more useful. ALso, I felt that the first all in was an attempt to use first in vigorish and thought that the second re-raiser was thinking the same thing. I was unconcerned about the big stack behind me and felt if he called it would have been with a marginal hand also due to the tempting pot odds. I also was basing my play on the fact that A8s is the minimum Ax hand I would risk my stack with and the fact that I was also short stacked and it was likely to be my best hand for a number of rounds with alot of chips on offer for it. I actually did think at the time that it was a risky move that was not necessarily a profitable play over time. I think it was a bad call also. I would be more interested in replies to my previous post about two hands before it which in effect put me in this situation in the first place! The AJ risrt caller hand which you guys should have good advice on. Hope my m8 Gholimoli picks up on these also. When I met him yesterday he told me to post my hands on here and thanks for the feedback guys. Some very interesting debates here:-) SO please take a look at my previous post and I will join the debate on that

sixpac911

I am fully aware of the GAP concept. However my read on first all iner using his first in vigorish and the second re-raiser knowing the same thing made me consider it. If I had been thinking correctly I should have known that the re-raiser probably knew his call and raise would make the pot more profitable for players behind him with big stacks to get involved in so I should have known he had something better than me. I agree my play was bad. WOuld have been better to use my own first in vigourish later on with a an even more marginal hand in hindsight :-(

ianmc38

Hawk Eye you must be avin a giraffe. Calling the first allin is ok I guess. You'll often be ahead of a shorties range with A8s. Calling the second one is suicidal IMHO.

eggie

sixpac911 wrote:

I was knida looking at the pot odds with the two all in players in front of me and thinking the small flush draw chance made the A8 a little more useful.

Your around 8/1 to flop a flush draw, and then your still 2/1 to hit at best.

Gholimoli

this is a very bad call.
as every one pretty much has mentioned calling one all in is ok based on him being short but calling a second one is bad.
the fact that the pot is big dosent justify calling with any two ,what you should consider is whether or not your two cards would win enough times here against the range you are likely up against to make this an over all profitable call.

the dude that is suggesting that this is a call must be baked.

Tar.Aldarion

I probably wouldn't even call with AK(maybe) let alone A8. Bad call imo...

Hitman Actual

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

I probably wouldn't even call with AK(maybe) let alone A8. Bad call imo...

Agreed on the A8, but i think with the stack sizes in play, folding AK would be a mistake. Ranges are fairly wide here, and AK should be in ok shape.

Tar.Aldarion

The maybe just depends on what I make of the two players that went all in before me.
I also think I sigh when I look down and see AK.

Rnger

eggie wrote:

Your around 8/1 to flop a flush draw, and then your still 2/1 to hit at best.

14/1 to make a flush at with any two suited cards if allin preflop

eggie

Rnger wrote:

14/1 to make a flush at with any two suited cards if allin preflop

thanks for rounding my approximations:D