€1/€2 Plhe

brianmc

Hero on CO with ~€850.

Villain on Button with ~€650 - €700.

A blind raise to €5 UTG and after limpers I make it €30 to play with KQo.

Villain on Button ponders briefly and flat calls. Everybody else folds.

Flop:

Q77.


Background: The villain is probably the last person at the table that I wanted on my left. He's not a world class player or anything but he's good and very steady. Of those at the table he'd be the one I'd prefer to put on my right.

The flop is good for me, but with this happening and being OOP the wrong thing to do would be to lead out. I did it anyway. I bet €60.

Villain raised to €200.

...

valor

As you know, dont bet the flop

Now fold

Lafortezza

Looks like a fold, any reads on Villain as he bet? Is he the type to raise the flopis with QJ or JJ/TT to see how much you like your hand?

ollyk1

lafortezza wrote:

Looks like a fold, any reads on Villain as he bet? Is he the type to raise the flopis with QJ or JJ/TT to see how much you like your hand?

The player in question is Cash game player Kevin. Mid to late 20's. Solid player generally but very capable of floating and making moves especially against "better" players.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

5starpool

Kevin would have reraised here preflop with AA/KK/QQ I am fairly sure. This is a horrible situation. A 7 is unlikely, but not out of the question though, but as Olly says he is capable of doing this with air too. I think you are ahead, but if it was my money I am not sure what I would do. The only likely hand he would have called with and not reraised with is AQ. I would probably apply the general rule of if in doubt, fold.

BigCityBanker

You say the villian ponders briefly and flat calls. He was pondering because

(A) he has a pocket pair or AK, AQ type holding and was considering a reraise.
(B) he has a good dogging hand - the best of which I can confirm is 6/7 soooooted - and said ah feck it il see if I can dog him cos there was plenty in the pot.

Ollyk will confirm to you that you were right to bet the flop for information (your bet was also the correct amount so as not to commit your stack) and that you fold instantly now as he has shown strength. ul, wp, good fold.

ollyk1

BigCityBanker wrote:

You say the villian ponders briefly and flat calls. He was pondering because

(A) he has a pocket pair or AK, AQ type holding and was considering a reraise.
(B) he has a good dogging hand - the best of which I can confirm is 6/7 soooooted - and said ah feck it il see if I can dog him cos there was plenty in the pot.

Ollyk will confirm to you that you were right to bet the flop for information (your bet was also the correct amount so as not to commit your stack) and that you fold instantly now as he has shown strength. ul, wp, good fold.

Ollyk did no such thing!! lol

I confirmed that the flop bet was horrible and that he should now take his medicine and fold. Check call or check fold would have been my line.

Kevin is more than capable of making moves but not nearly as often as people think and when he does and they work (or he gets caught) he advertises the sh1t out of them which tells me a lot about what he has generally.

Kevin is a big fan of position and this is what gives myself (and Dom I suspect) the feeling that there is a higher chance than normal that he could be at it however my advice at this table and seat would be to fold and go home to count your profit.

Marq

ollyk1 wrote:

Solid player generally but very capable of floating and making moves especially against "better" players.

Which means that he couldn't be bluffing against Brian!
ZING!

ollyk1

Marq wrote:

Which means that he couldn't be bluffing against Brian!
ZING!

Tell us straight Marq are you sticking your money in or not??

brianmc

Marq wrote:

Which means that he couldn't be bluffing against Brian!
ZING!

Well, I'm afraid Marq has analysed this most accurately. He has the benefit of having been the dealer at the time though. (And having seen my donkishness on many occassions.)

5Starpool's anaysis is more or less what went through my head as well as previous run in's with Kevin and they influenced my decision. Even then, I embarrassingly made the situation worse... I'm not comfortable enough with myself to explain how the rest of the hand went but suffice to say that Kevin had 97o and got maximum value from it.

For the record, BigCityBanker, my flop bet was inexcusably wrong... as was my choice of follow up action to the raise.

Lafortezza

You pushed didn't you? There's no shame in admitting it..

brianmc

lafortezza wrote:

You pushed didn't you? There's no shame in admitting it..

brianmc wrote:

my flop bet was inexcusably wrong... as was my choice of follow up action to the raise.

I could excuse calling.


We don't seem to have a smiley that represents the shame... I hang my head.


I've decided that I'm never going to play past bedtime again.

ollyk1

brianmc wrote:

He has the benefit of having been the dealer at the time though. (And having seen my donkishness on many occassions.)

I had figured that much myself!

Serious question after we've all had a good laugh at Brian for pushing all-in here.

images.jpg

Does anyone else not like how Kevin played this hand or is it the right move because he got Brian to reraise all-in here with two outs when lets face it he shouldn't have lost more than €60 on the flop here.

El Stuntman

ollyk1 wrote:

Does anyone else not like how Kevin played this hand or is it the right move because he got Brian to reraise all-in here with two outs when lets face it he shouldn't have lost more than €60 on the flop here.

unless the Villain had an outstanding read on Brian (drunk? steaming? insane?), then I detest the way he played the hand

ollyk1

El Stuntman wrote:

(drunk? steaming? insane?)

Brian hasn't said but I suspect two of the three for sure!! lol

btw tired = drunk for Brian

Gholimoli

i like the way villain played the hand.
most players here would think "there is no way he is going to raise me here with a 7 ..."
if you call here ,hero will shut down on the turn and will go to check fold or check call mod.
even though its player dependent i often rather a raise here.

brianmc

El Stuntman wrote:

unless the Villain had an outstanding read on Brian (drunk? steaming? insane?), then I detest the way he played the hand

I also detest the way he played the hand. I cannot use it as an excuse though.

I choose "insane".

ollyk1

Gholimoli wrote:

i like the way villain played the hand.
most players here would think "there is no way he is going to raise me here with a 7 ..."
if you call here ,hero will shut down on the turn and will go to check fold or check call mod.
even though its player dependent i often rather a raise here.

I think he must have put Brian on AA or KK or Aq at a minimum here Gholi to really think this was a good move. I think he could have milked €100 on turn or river from a lot of Brian's possible hand holdings but instead gives Brian an easy chance to get away. I guess you prefer to play for the stack but is this optimal in the long run?

What hands call (or push!) the villains raise and pot commit themselves and how often?

Gholimoli

El Stuntman wrote:

unless the Villain had an outstanding read on Brian (drunk? steaming? insane?), then I detest the way he played the hand

why?

you'r too obsessed with slow playing.

given hero's image of villain i think villain played it pretty well.

BigCityBanker

brianmc wrote:

For the record, BigCityBanker, my flop bet was inexcusably wrong... as was my choice of follow up action to the raise.

Dont worry - im only having a pop at Ollyk ere - not you.

58o

ollyk1 wrote:

What hands call (or push!) the villains raise and pot commit themselves and how often?

AA KK Q10 JQ Q9 Q8 etc would all do the above in dublin cash games regularly. Villain played it optimally considering it was the fitz

Gholimoli

ollyk1 wrote:

I think he must have put Brian on AA or KK or Aq at a minimum here Gholi to really think this was a good move. I think he could have milked €100 on turn or river from a lot of Brian's possible hand holdings but instead gives Brian an easy chance to get away. I guess you prefer to play for the stack but is this optimal in the long run?

What hands call (or push!) the villains raise and pot commit themselves and how often?

Olly alot of this depend on what hero thinks of villain.
hero actually thinks his hand is good here hence the push.
assuming villain knows this and is aware of what hero thinks of him then its a good move.
yes alot of times Brian folds here but he only folds hands that villain was not going to get paid of.

if hero had AA,KK here do you think he would have folded ,i dont think he would so what villain has done is created a bigger pot on the flop,making bets bigger on the turn and river which is very good pot building with a big hand.
just because hero will often fold here dosent mean its a bad line.the times that villain misses the extra $100 here is more than compensated by the times where hero will get stacked (the raise here by villain is essentially asking hero would you like to play this hand for your stack).

Hectorjelly

is that kevin the really skinny young guy who often wears a baseball cap?

El Stuntman

Gholimoli wrote:

why?

you'r too obsessed with slow playing.

given hero's image of villain i think villain played it pretty well.

LOL, you're right - I am a sick man!!


(note to self: must build....own....pots... - slap!!!)

willis

If he can reraise with air then his reraise with the 7 is optimal. A call would have me on auto-shutdown as it would be so suspicious

brianmc

Hectorjelly wrote:

is that kevin the really skinny young guy who often wears a baseball cap?

This guy isn't the baseball cap type. Errr... short dark hair... clean cut. Probably slightly older than you're picturing. I should be able to place his accent, but I can't.

5starpool

Hectorjelly wrote:

is that kevin the really skinny young guy who often wears a baseball cap?

No, not him. This Kevin is from Cork, and looks more alive than the Kevin you are thinking of.

ollyk1

Gholimoli wrote:

Olly alot of this depend on what hero thinks of villain.
hero actually thinks his hand is good here hence the push.
assuming villain knows this and is aware of what hero thinks of him then its a good move.
yes alot of times Brian folds here but he only folds hands that villain was not going to get paid of.

if hero had AA,KK here do you think he would have folded ,i dont think he would so what villain has done is created a bigger pot on the flop,making bets bigger on the turn and river which is very good pot building with a big hand.
just because hero will often fold here dosent mean its a bad line.the times that villain misses the extra $100 here is more than compensated by the times where hero will get stacked (the raise here by villain is essentially asking hero would you like to play this hand for your stack).

I think with a 7 here on this board and given the action I 100% agree the villains objective has to be to get all the money in there if he can...... But if not to try and earn some cash.

I guess you need to weigh up how often you get all the money in there versus making €100 in milking bets but raising here does have the benefit of mixing up ones game and I'm sure the table got punished with raises in similar situations following this hand.

One thing for sure is that the villain has kept his hand well concealed imho and thats always a good thing. I guess it would be interesting to run some kind of numbers on this to see which is the better move.

brianmc

ollyk1 wrote:

I'm sure the table got punished with raises in similar situations following this hand.

Not like you'd think! The fupper hit trips two or three more times in the following ten hands or so and got paid off on them again. (not by me )

Gholimoli

ollyk1 wrote:

I think with a 7 here on this board and given the action I 100% agree the villains objective has to be to get all the money in there if he can...... But if not to try and earn some cash.

I guess you need to weigh up how often you get all the money in there versus making €100 in milking bets but raising here does have the benefit of mixing up ones game and I'm sure the table got punished with raises in similar situations following this hand.

One thing for sure is that the villain has kept his hand well concealed imho and thats always a good thing. I guess it would be interesting to run some kind of numbers on this to see which is the better move.

against a good player im not sure you would make the $100 extra that often anyway.
think about it:
hero raises pre-flop and then bets the flop.
his bet on the flop is either a Cbet or a value bet.
if its a Cbet then he will shut down on the turn anyway so you will not get any more out of him by just calling.

if its a value bet then he is just as likely to call your raise here as he is on the turn but the difference is your building the pot here on the flop with two more rounds of betting left but if you do it on the turn you only have one.

the only times villain may get the extra $100 is when he calls the flop bet and hero actually improves on the turn which is not that often.

brianmc

On consideration, I'm in agreement with Gholi on this.

WP raise by Kevin. It did lead me to believe I was possibly ahead.

El Stuntman

Oi Gholi, on a similar track:

same game, different night, different location

you are UTG and do the ol' compulsory blind raise to 7 (have a sneak peek and see 45 off) - 7 callers (!)

flop comes 623 rainbow, SB and BB check, you pot it, everyone folds

optimal play? what would you do??

Gholimoli

El Stuntman wrote:

Oi Gholi, on a similar track:

same game, different night, different location

you are UTG and do the ol' compulsory blind raise to 7 (have a sneak peek and see 45 off) - 7 callers (!)

flop comes 623 rainbow, SB and BB check, you pot it, everyone folds

optimal play? what would you do??

different situation .
that bored fits a random hand.

that bored generally does not fit a hand that has called a raise from EP with so many players left to act.

no body has shown streanght in this hand yet.

this bored is full of draws which means check/call by you can easily be interpreted as a drawing hand (which very different than Q77).

you have alot of players to act behind you (more ppl in the hand).

all of this would make a slow playing here a better play IMO.

Hectorjelly

5starpool wrote:

No, not him. This Kevin is from Cork, and looks more alive than the Kevin you are thinking of.

yeah he definitely could do with a few square meals

El Stuntman

Hectorjelly wrote:

yeah he definitely could do with a few square meals

he should eat these funky Japanese watermelons then....

El Stuntman

Gholimoli wrote:

different situation .
that bored fits a random hand.

that bored generally does not fit a hand that has called a raise from EP with so many players left to act.

no body has shown streanght in this hand yet.

this bored is full of draws which means check/call by you can easily be interpreted as a drawing hand (which very different than Q77).

you have alot of players to act behind you (more ppl in the hand).

all of this would make a slow playing here a better play IMO.

to add some context, I had been bluffing the weak players at the table like mad and advertising most bluffs so thought I might get some action but 'twas not to be, sigh....

Hectorjelly

no slowplaying the 56 would be much worse

with the 77q board if you flat call the bet, then on the turn a pot bet is 300 and the river 900. Im not sure if what the stacks were but I would imagine that would be nearly all in,anyway you can get in smooth there. I like just calling there because it makes it easier to get all in againts AA/KK. If I had AA (and definitely kQ) there I would fold to a raise on the flop because when you call his raise you are immediatly telegraphing exactly the strength of your hand. If your opponent has you beat he will continue with the hand, if not he will fold. It doesnt really matter if you think your KQ hand is good or not, its a very unprofitable situation to be in. Anytime your hand is basically face up its very hard to make a profit.

Also when you call preflop, that call can only be profitable if you make a lot of money when you actually flop something big. Whenever you make a bad call on one street raising the next street when you actually get lucky in an obvious manner on the next is bad poker.

With the 56 hand you have muliple opponents and a very disguised hand. But there isnt much in the pot, so you need to start building it. There no need for a full pot bet, the best play is to bet small maybe half the pot. When you bet the full pot people will put you on AA and also not try to take you off the hand. Bet 25 and people with overcards will probably call in the fitz.

Gholimoli

Hectorjelly wrote:

no slowplaying the 56 would be much worse

with the 77q board if you flat call the bet, then on the turn a pot bet is 300 and the river 900. Im not sure if what the stacks were but I would imagine that would be nearly all in,anyway you can get in smooth there. I like just calling there because it makes it easier to get all in againts AA/KK. If I had AA (and definitely kQ) there I would fold to a raise on the flop because when you call his raise you are immediatly telegraphing exactly the strength of your hand. If your opponent has you beat he will continue with the hand, if not he will fold. It doesnt really matter if you think your KQ hand is good or not, its a very unprofitable situation to be in. Anytime your hand is basically face up its very hard to make a profit.

Also when you call preflop, that call can only be profitable if you make a lot of money when you actually flop something big. Whenever you make a bad call on one street raising the next street when you actually get lucky in an obvious manner on the next is bad poker.

With the 56 hand you have muliple opponents and a very disguised hand. But there isnt much in the pot, so you need to start building it. There no need for a full pot bet, the best play is to bet small maybe half the pot. When you bet the full pot people will put you on AA and also not try to take you off the hand. Bet 25 and people with overcards will probably call in the fitz.

i disagree with your analysis of the qq7 hand HJ.

your saying you like a flat call becuase you would fold an AA or KQ here .
so villain flat calls and the pot is about $100 on the turn.
you check and villain now bets $60 and you call or fold.
assuming you call then you check the turn and villain now bets 150 .
now if a player is bad enough to call a raise on the flop,turn,river with AA here you can be sure he would call a raise on the flop which makes it much more likely to stack him

ollyk1

Gholimoli wrote:

i disagree with your analysis of the qq7 hand HJ.

your saying you like a flat call becuase you would fold an AA or KQ here .
so villain flat calls and the pot is about $100 on the turn.
you check and villain now bets $60 and you call or fold.
assuming you call then you check the turn and villain now bets 150 .
now if a player is bad enough to call a raise on the flop,turn,river with AA here you can be sure he would call a raise on the flop which makes it much more likely to stack him

Your sums are wrong Gholi


There is ~€200 on the flop if the villian smooth calls

Bet and call of €120 on the turn say (using your patented 60% of pot bet). The pot is then €440.

All-inski on the river for the villian is now the pot.

Apart from that I don't know which line is best but I love to see yourself and HJ argue it out!

El Stuntman

ollyk1 wrote:

Apart from that I don't know which line is best but I love to see yourself and HJ argue it out!

surely Gholi must yield to the reigning Boards Champion here????

cardshark202

5starpool wrote:

No, not him. This Kevin is from Cork, and looks more alive than the Kevin you are thinking of.

If its that Kevin he's never bluffing here. He rarely bluffs, maybe once every 10 sessions.

cardshark202

El Stuntman wrote:

Oi Gholi, on a similar track:

same game, different night, different location

you are UTG and do the ol' compulsory blind raise to 7 (have a sneak peek and see 45 off) - 7 callers (!)

flop comes 623 rainbow, SB and BB check, you pot it, everyone folds

optimal play? what would you do??

That is optimal play

El Stuntman

cardshark202 wrote:

That is optimal play

bah, it still made me grind my teeth together like a demented heifer