Modern Ireland

monosharp

When did the people of this country start to care about nothing but money ? Everyone and everything seems to be based on getting as much € as you possibly can. Every decision everyone makes, money plays possibly the most important factor.

I went to college because it was drilled into my head that i needed a "good" job and earn loads of € and everything else comes second.

Well i'm leaving my fairly well paid job and throwing my degree in the proverbial bin to go working at a job i actually like. Its not going to pay anything near what my old job did and would pay me in the future but i don't care.

Am i the only one in the country who thinks this way ? Every decision everyone i know makes is based on money. People don't go to college to do something they like, they go to college to get a job that pays well that might be close to something they like.

When did we become so american ? I used to think we were great people (the Irish), nowadays we're money grabbing trolls whose every decision is based on how much we get or how much it costs.

james123

Man your my mews!
Im nearly finished four years of an IT degree and Ive just realised I bloody hate IT and everything that comes with it, but feel i have to follow this path or Im doomed in some way, well at least thats what i was thought!.
Well Fcuk that im going to try and find a way around it before i become a drone in a box office staring into a monitor for 40 years.

thebman

When FF let inflation stay high for a decade or so and then put an additional tax on everything.

Personally I just graduated college in IT and am trying to get a job in it because I like it. I don't give a crap about making money which is lucky becuase in reality there is no money in IT for most.

I took an aptitude test of some sort that estimated what carreer you'd enjoy. First was Computer Science and second was Software Engineering.

Everyone isn't obsessed with money in Ireland, they are obsessed with how little of it they have given we live in a booming economy supposedly. In reality most people are just annoyed they aren't benefiting from it.

The only people benefiting from the economic boom are property developers and politicians.

Best to just do the hobbies you like and do a job you'll enjoy. Very few people can get jobs doing what they love. Most have to settle so they try to settle for something that pays well.

kleefarr

I'm with you all the way. There's nothing that bores me more than people who always talk about money, how much they get paid and what they bought ad how much it cost. There seems to be loads of them around or may be it's just my imagination.
My father said to me when I was about 16, "Son, it's doesn't matter if your a milkman or a lawyer. the main thing is BE HAPPY!" I'll never forget it.
Gave up a well paid job a while ago because I had had enough. Not making much now, BUT I'M HAPPY.

mike65

When FF let inflation stay high for a decade or so

Thats a joke or at least a comment from someone who is'nt very old. Inflation rates here are by historical standards, low.

As for the wider point, Ireland has just caught up with the rest of the world and many people are discovering its not all its cracked up to be. Not that a return to slumber and sloth would be any better mind you. If you want to downshift and can do so then feel free! Unfortunatly many are trying to keep thier train on the tracks - mortgage, creche, car, etc. and feel they can't slow down even if they want to.

Mike.

Crucifix

Being relatively young I haven't encountered much of this yet, but people do tend to look at me like I've sprouted an extra head when I tell them I'm doing a college course because I'm interested in learning the subject and have no idea what I'll do when I'm finished.

monosharp

monosharp wrote:

Well i'm leaving my fairly well paid job and throwing my degree in the proverbial bin to go working at a job i actually like. Its not going to pay anything near what my old job did and would pay me in the future but i don't care.

And you'll feel better because of it. Your life will always adapt to deal with the amount of money you have available to you.

I did the same about 5 years ago. Joined a company run by my friend, simply because I hated working for Esat in Dublin so much. So moved to a much lower paid job, and i've been happier than I ever was in Dublin.

I don't think its that rare. Its just that many people gain commitments like children, or supporting siblings when they're younger and find they're forced into taking the first job that comes along, and gets stuck.

DublinWriter

I've given this a lot of thought over the past few years and I'm kinda coming to the conclusion that the change is not all down to our recent collective good monetary fortune.

I've worked and lived in a load of different countries, and I can honestly say that Irish people are really the most unfriendliest of people I know, with the Germans coming an undisputed first. The sad thing is that we seem to cling onto this notion of being 'friendly' the same was we seem to cling onto a notion that we still have our own culture and language.

Oh sure we're plenty friendly to tourists, but pretty horrible to our own.

But maybe I was given an easy ride in all the countries I've holidayed and worked in, being a Paddy does open doors, especially when I was in the UK. Even most of the shops in London, 50% of the time it was hard to buy something with at least one pleasantry or unrelated comment being exchanged. You'd be lucky if you even got a 'thanks' in most Irish shops.

But back again to the money. I think we've always been an edgy, disillusioned, bitter people deep down inside. In all the times up to the 1990's we had to tow the line. Now that people have a great deal more money and mobility we have the luxury of saying "f*ck you" to other people most times we like, well maybe not literally, but you get my drift.

Basically, I think the money brought out what was already there and in itself didn't create any fundamental characteristics in us.

On a personal note, I don't like what Ireland has become. Here we are, second only to Japan in terms of personal wealth and our hospitals are in pieces. Our hospitals were largely fine back in the poor old days. Maybe David McWilliams can explain that one to us?

No human being lives in a Utopia, but a balance between the sh*t and shinola that you take being a citizen/subject of any given country. For example, Belgians used to whinge at me for having one of the highest rates of personal tax in the EU, until I pointed out to them what the average family pay for VHI/BUPA subs, what the average young driver pays in insurance and the cost of groceries being almost double what they are in Belgium.

I've tried to be objective about the benefits about living in Ireland, and to be honest I've yet to come up with one reply that doesn't revolve around some form of liver-damage. Yes, people will bleat on about low personal tax, but that's not worth a feck when you can't even get a hospital bed with private health care, when the police are so undermanned and under resourced and when our transport infrastructure is like something from the 19th century.

Various work and educational commitments have kept me here recently, but I'm not making any long term plans on staying (hurrah! - saved you the bother). The good doesn't weight up to the bad in this country anymore.

Years ago emmigrants would be coming back to Ireland to have families. I personally wouldn't.

DublinWriter, great post.

I agree with everything you've said, and to be honest I'd agree about living here long-term. TBH, I'm just pushing time & money until I can adequately afford to move to another country. I can't see the benefits many posters seem to believe that Ireland has to offer, although it doesn't annoy me as much any more. Still, its not really a country that I want to live for the rest of my life in. And the obvious change in how Irish people deal with each other over the last 5-7 years has just reinforced the desire to leave coupled with the high costs and low returns on living here.

Probably one of the biggest indication I've seen of this is the rise of vandalism, and dodgy actions of kids/teenagers, that I've actually seen (rather than just hearing the news reports). The next generation of "Adults" in Ireland seem to consist of ill-mannered bravo's intent on pushing everything to the limit, because there's nobody/nothing to punish them. Vandalism and such behaviour is nothing new. I saw alot of it myself when I was growing up, but it seems (at least to me) to have spread across the country, and also appears to be no longer hidden. Destroyed public telephones, glass in bus shelters smashed, burnt and damaged cars, large groups of kids loitering at every corner etc.

Its funny. Well, not really, but when I was growing up, it was the travellers that were considered the dangerous element in our society. When cars were damaged or people beaten, usually the finger was pointed at the travelling community, whether settled or on the move. And in many cases the accusations were correct. And yet now, its no longer the travellers that cause much of the damage. Its the kids from middle class families, with money in their pockets, and nothing to do. Perhaps its just that times have changed and peoples focus doesn't really include the Travellers.

Personally I think this more than anything else has shown how this country has gone downhill on the personality level. Considering many of these people will be entering mainstream society within 3-5 years. Not long to wait for the next crop of ignorance within our society.

And the main problem is that people just don't care. We tend to look to just our own lives, and how other impact our comforts. I can remember as a child, my parents visiting neighbours they hardly knew when something bad might happen to them. There was a community of people who sought to help other people should the need arise. The only people I see doing this nowadays are the old people, and students in college. Our society is crumbling, with people looking inwards disregarding the stresses that are weakening our country. Its Me! Me! Me!

I think Irish people have lost alot over the years, but its our concern for our neighbours and the ability to keep control of the country's children that seem to have been hit the most. And its this selfishness and ignorance, that appears to have hit the Irish people the most.

**Edit. I thought it might be worth mentioning, that I include myself in this. I have no desire to help other Irish people, except for my close friends/family. Beyond the occasional donation to my favourite charities, I don't want to think of other Irish people's problems as long as it doesn't affect my own life. Didn't mean to point the finger elsewhere, and not include myself in all of this.

mike65

We never had it so bad Societies have a habit of reacting badly to rapid change as its something humans don't really like. The release of monitary wealth has fueled all the worst aspects of Irelands character while not balming the furrowed brow of the majority as expected (proberly naively).

It'll be another generation before things quieten down and Ireland as a society takes full stock and decides what it really wants - money or contentment.

Prviate affluence and public squalor was what JK Galbraith warned the USA of in the 50s the Ireland of 2006 is in the same place now.

Mike.

Sand

God be with the days when we were poor and miserable, wasnt it better than now adays when we are rich and miserable? Give me a break. I guess the next time some homeless beggar asks for change, Ill say "No, if I gave you money it would only make you unhappy. Better I bear the burden of being rich, while you be poor and happy"

When did the people of this country start to care about nothing but money ? Everyone and everything seems to be based on getting as much € as you possibly can. Every decision everyone makes, money plays possibly the most important factor.

Somewhere near the dawn of time Id imagine. Money can be exchanged for goods and services, so its a pretty important consideration if you wish to have access to goods and services. This has always been the case.

Well i'm leaving my fairly well paid job and throwing my degree in the proverbial bin to go working at a job i actually like. Its not going to pay anything near what my old job did and would pay me in the future but i don't care.

Great. Have a good time. Ill work and demand the highest compensation for my time I can achieve, because I dont enjoy work. Its not a hobby of mine. If I did enjoy work, theyd be charging me for the privledge of doing it.

On a personal note, I don't like what Ireland has become. Here we are, second only to Japan in terms of personal wealth and our hospitals are in pieces. Our hospitals were largely fine back in the poor old days. Maybe David McWilliams can explain that one to us?

If youre assuming that because weve just recently reached parity on personal income with Japan that we should have the infrastructure Japan has youre not taking into account that Japan has been one of the wealthier if not wealthiest countries since the 60-70s and has for all that time been investing in their infrastructure. Were 30-40 years behind them in having a tax base that can support investment in that sort of infrastructure.

Even before you consider that Japan over-invested in infrastructure [including bridges to no where] as part of cosy patronage between the government and businessmen.

If the clowns in the Dail can manage not to startle the horses and keep the show on the road for the next 30-40 years then we can start asking why we dont have the same infrastructure as Japan.

Its the kids from middle class families, with money in their pockets, and nothing to do.

And if they didnt have money in their pockets theyd have more to do? Kids acting the maggot is down to bad parents who dont keep an eye on their kids, easy access to drugs and alcohol and a general lack of accountability held against kids or their parents. If you call the Guards to complain about kids breaking a bus shelter, what are they going to do? Waste of time to bother with them.

Sgt. Sensible

It's Yeats's 'beggar on horseback' syndrome. Irish society has always been well backward, but what I detest about modern Ireland is:

Cocaine everywhere. It can turn sound people into twats but the effect on people who are twats already is absolutely unbearable.

Anyone who's first question when you meet them for the first time is 'what do you do?'. They define their relationship to you by your answer. You can count on it that they have some sort of well paid but very boring job.

People who drag any conversation in any social scenario around to property prices, and how well they happen to be doing. They always do this with a shifty eyed peasant look as if they're trying to worm some investment inside info you of you.

The disturbingly high number of socially indequate virgins who live with their parents, rent out the house they bought but can't afford to live in and spend their time alone playing computer games and developing their prejudices against foreigners and god knows who or what else. On the rare occasions they leave the house they never fail to ask 'what do you do' and discuss property prices. I seem to attract them like a magnet.


I agree with what most other people have said here. Even when times were bad, my parents and grandparents always said that there's no point working at something that makes you unhappy. All you'll do is end up making everyone around you unhappy. Find out what you enjoy doing and stick with it, you never get anything in life without persistence.

Muggy Dev

mike65 wrote:

Prviate affluence and public squalor.

Very apt.

Isn't there something amiss when we spend small fortunes on People Carriers and 4x4's and then equip them with expensive and sophisticated child seats to drop off our children in creches for up to 12 hours a day? For what? To get on the property ladder?

What about the state of our Casualty Depts in hospitals.Do we really believe that we or someone we love will never need these vital services and therefore our taxes should not be increased or spent providing a first world service for all?

Are we so docile that many of us accept the 4 hour daily commute to work as inevitable?

.....and what is it that makes many parents born in the 60's and 70's think that they could disregard the wisdom of their own upbringing in matters such as respect for others and other peoples propery,courtesy and manners,social responsibility etc, and decide that all that is really required is unconditional love for ones own children? Oh........and a gaming console.

Prior to the early 90's one could quite accuratly have described the Irish Character as proud but modest(quite similar to the Spanish in many ways).Would anyone recognise this description now?

Behind the scenes, manufacturing industry in this country is having a torrid time under the weight of high energy costs and spiralling payroll.Unthinkable at almost anytime, Cadbury's are shedding one third of their workforce.450 job will go in Coolock from a plant and a business that has been there for decades.Jacob's in Tallaght narrowly missed the same fate last year and it's far from out of the woods yet.The construction industy is entering the last phase of its boom.I agree with the "Soft Landing" scenario but that only applies to house prices.When the industry itself begins to contract there will be massive redundancies across all sectors relating to it.

So,as grim as some people may think our present situation is(and I am one of them),the next five years will,I believe,be amoung the most difficult and testing since the foundation of the state.

Do we have the character for this?

The fact that we blame our Transport Minister for all the carnage on our roads despite the glaring and obvious fact that it is our own behaviour that is at fault,would suggest that we do not.

metrovelvet

Maybe you should talk to the generations of IRrsh who grew up with 7 kids sharing one pair of shoes, and ask them how happy they were.

So what if people are materialistic. Look around you, the world is made of material.

snickerpuss

Crucifix wrote:

Being relatively young I haven't encountered much of this yet, but people do tend to look at me like I've sprouted an extra head when I tell them I'm doing a college course because I'm interested in learning the subject and have no idea what I'll do when I'm finished.

I know this feeling!
"You're doing irish and art history?!? :eek:
I don't care i love them both, don't doubt that i picked the right course.

DublinWriter

Muggy Dev wrote:

Isn't there something amiss when we spend small fortunes on People Carriers and 4x4's and then equip them with expensive and sophisticated child seats to drop off our children in creches for up to 12 hours a day? For what? To get on the property ladder?

Good example.

For me nothing is more symbolic of Modern Ireland when I stand facing the side of Eddie Rocketts in Phibsborough weekdays at the opposite side of the road around about 6pm.

Cast your gaze directly upwards and there'll be an aerobic session in full swing directly above Eddie Rockett's, all the full length windows are usually open.

To be, nothing symbolises the relentless cycle of consumarism more than that little tableau I see in Phibsborough. We're all earning more and more to spend more and more.

Usually after a couple of minutes of the above reflection I have to move on or else people will think I'm oggling the lycra clad lovelies!

Muggy Dev wrote:

Behind the scenes, manufacturing industry in this country is having a torrid time under the weight of high energy costs and spiralling payroll...So,as grim as some people may think our present situation is(and I am one of them),the next five years will,I believe,be amoung the most difficult and testing since the foundation of the state.

The manufacturing sector is marching east, there's nothing we can do about that unless we want to pay Irish workers Chinese and Indian pay rates.

However the government pissed away the early lead we had in the early-late 90's by not capitalising on the early success of the international manufacturing base here to encourage indigenous service-based businesses. The writing was on the wall even then.

Of course it's more politically advantageous to announce on the 6.1 news that a new factory will be employing 500 people to assemble widgets than help the type of two-man operation that google and youtube sprang from.

Politicians by their nature are short termists, always with the eye to the next election and are not long-term strategic thinkers. In this country we don't have visionary leaders; that will be our undoing in the next ten years.

iguana

monosharp wrote:

I went to college because it was drilled into my head that i needed a "good" job and earn loads of € and everything else comes second.

This is the one thing my mum always feels is the biggest problem in our society and I agree. Kids in school are being told by the majority of teachers that they have to do well in school so they can get a good job and grow up to earn lots of money. Instead they should be told that you go to school because learning can be great and at school you get a chance to try out lots of things so you can find something you love and grow up to be happy. But our education system isn't geared that way.:(

Kell

monosharp wrote:

When did we become so american ? I used to think we were great people (the Irish), nowadays we're money grabbing trolls whose every decision is based on how much we get or how much it costs.

Personally I think its a fear of individuality as opposed to money grabbing. The influx of money has caused many/most people to compare what they have against what the next person has and its become a "keep up with the Jones'" scenario.

Rather than becoming more enlightened, the species as a whole seems to be caught up in material wealth as opposed to self worth, hence people staying in shíte jobs because they pay well while their true self goes to hell. Consequently, instead of having people who are 3D, there are a fúck load of 2dimensional plastic people out there with fake smiles who couldnt hold a deep and heavy for longer than a few seconds. Dundrum SC is a fantastic example of this hence my loathing of the place.

How many people do you know are brilliant musicians, artists, actors etc who will never make the break for fear of the unknown or worried they'll be laughed at if they fall on their face? Probably loads.

With the exception of consumerism, American society "seems" to be well up in promoting individuality (except at government level of course) whereby people are encouraged to go and explore new things and exel as a person. The typical response from an Irish person when you want to break the mould is "you want to do what? You fúcking eejit", then people back down and accept their sad fate and do it because everyone else is doing it. And the cycle keeps going round.

K-

metrovelvet

Kell - that is an important difference.

In the US the whole point is in the attempt, that even if you fail, you have to try. That's the "dream."

Ireland is well reputed for among other things, negativity. When this is dropped, you will see a huge change in the over all culture.

Sleepy

It seems quite incredible that the general population seem to be unable to notice the link between the chaotic working lives (and the commutes they entail), the increased wealth (and associated materialism) and the explosion in chicken soup "psychology" books, self-help gurus, life coaches etc.

People are so hell bent on having a "lifestyle" that they're putting their mental health (and often physical health in terms of stress/lack of proper sleep etc) at risk and then turning to charlatans offering quick-fixes instead of dealing with their root problems.

Kell

Sleepy wrote:

then turning to charlatans offering quick-fixes instead of dealing with their root problems.

You only have to look at PI's to see the amount of people out there who have deep issues that they are abundantly unaware of. The rest of them need an instruction manual to have a píss sometimes.

The charlatans shouldnt be blamed for the availability of the crap that is out there- the individual should be. It also goes back to fear. "Go and see a therapist? Do you think I am fúcking crazy man? What would the mot think of me?". What those people need is to actually sit down and work out what the fúck is wrong with them, but this takes time and effort but whats the point when they can have another baby guinness.

The ones that need instruction are fearful of fúcking up. Whats actually absent from the country is self respect and self esteem and people hide this away in "looking good" and making sure they have the best of everything. Poor fúckers are dying inside, yet they wont tell anyone about it for fear of being pointed at and laughed.

K-

metrovelvet

Thats because there is now money to be spent on addressing those problems. They were always there, but people were more focused on basic material supply to worry about more spiritual/psychological issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

Muggy Dev

It would be interesting to see what the emigration stats are for Ireland for the last five years.I checked the C.S.O. site but their numbers are quoted in Net Migration terms.My guess is that the over 50, "empty nesters" are leaving in droves.

Kfitz

I'm glad that other people feel the same way I do. Do you ever feel like you are on the outside looking in? People are so materialistic and caught up in 'keeping up with the Jones' to care about the importnat things in life.

I can't see my future in this country either.

[QUOTE

Behind the scenes, manufacturing industry in this country is having a torrid time under the weight of high energy costs and spiralling payroll.Unthinkable at almost anytime, Cadbury's are shedding one third of their workforce.450 job will go in Coolock from a plant and a business that has been there for decades.Jacob's in Tallaght narrowly missed the same fate last year and it's far from out of the woods yet.The construction industy is entering the last phase of its boom.I agree with the "Soft Landing" scenario but that only applies to house prices.When the industry itself begins to contract there will be massive redundancies across all sectors relating to it.QUOTE]

I work in the manufacturing industry and people are so greedy. They try to get as much as then can with doing as little as possible. People going out sick getting sick pay when there is nothing wrong with them. Its the good, honest, hard worker who comes in every day and does 8 hrs a day, year in, year out that never get the credit they deserve.

In a spiteful kind of way I hope that factories pull out of Ireland cause if the people are anything like they are in the place I'm in, it will give them the kick up the arse they deserve.

Muggy Dev

Fascinating piece in today's Sunday Inndependent.

I would have posted the link but registation is required.

WHEN Fr Martin O'Reilly gave his homily last Monday in the Monaghan church at the funeral of two of those killed in the car crash that claimed five young lives, he was well qualified to make the observations that he did. For he is youth director in the Diocese of Clogher, and his experience in that role no doubt informed his controversial comments. He told mourners that Irish society was failing its young because too many people were too busy "making hay" in the Celtic Tiger economy.

But in drawing some sweeping general conclusions from what was a singular tragedy, he also overstated his case. Nevertheless, Fr O'Reilly has engaged in a worthwhile exercise. He has managed to prick the nation's conscience, and thereby generated a useful public debate on his provocative assertion.

His main contention was that while Irish parents have given their children everything in the material world (iPods, mobile phones and DVDs), they have denied them love. And so he asked for the forgiveness of youth for the failure of parents in their duty of emotional care to their offspring.

It would seem like a sweeping indictment of a whole generation of Irish parents who find themselves charged with the pursuit of material excess and money-making, to the detriment of the welfare of their children who are starved of emotional love, and who are plied with material gifts to compensate for a lack of parental affection.

Such benign neglect, or so Fr O'Reilly might seem to suggest, has left a younger generation lacking in moral direction, and prone to acts of social irresponsibility.

Cecil Day Lewis, the Irish poet, in some memorable lines, wrote: "How selfhood begins with a walking away and love is proved in the letting go." Parental love, however, is also proved in the letting go, in accepting that at 18 young people have reached the age of majority.

And, as young adults, they must also accept responsibility for their actions in exercising the various new freedoms they can then enjoy. At 18, the young can vote, drive cars, make contracts, and buy alcohol. They, and not their parents, are in control of their lives, and while the continuing parental role may well be one of influence, it is no longer one of control. Parents can only do so much.

Undoubtedly, Irish society has experienced a major transformation over a very short time period, which is best reflected in the rapid rate of economic change over the past decade and in the rising numbers of migrant workers, who now account for nearly 10 per cent of the workforce.

Undoubtedly, this increased affluence and social upheaval has eroded spiritual values, and diminished the traditional sense of community.

The Irish village is more global than local, while for many families the pace of life has accelerated; not least for those who must drive long distances to work every day. For them life has become more stressful and, with much less social support, securing the right balance between work and family responsibilities has become far harder to achieve.

Nostalgia for a vanished past, where communities were united by a mutual concern for the welfare of their members, and where those communities were, as Fr O'Reilly said, "full of parents who would act as parents to neighbours' children", clearly offers no solution today.

Last week he said, "In the 12 years since I was ordained, I have buried more people from the generation after me than the generation before me." And Fr O'Reilly asked the question 'Why?' It is a question to which Irish society now needs to know the answer.

DublinWriter

While I agree in principal with many of Fr Martin O'Reilly's points, the funeral service of these young people wasn't an apt place to 'grandstand'.

iguana

DublinWriter wrote:

While I agree in principal with many of Fr Martin O'Reilly's points, the funeral service of these young people wasn't an apt place to 'grandstand'.

Indeed. He basically stood up at the funeral and blamed the parents for their kid's deaths. That's a horrible thing to do.

Sleepy

Kell wrote:

The charlatans shouldnt be blamed for the availability of the crap that is out there- the individual should be.

While I understand where you're coming from, I can't forgive the charlatans for filling the heads of those gullible enough to believe that a self-help book can change one's life with crap.

These quick-fixes undoubtedly provide an excuse for people who need professional help not to seek it and thus, imho, add to their problems helping them delude themselves that things such as a 'positive mental attitude' can fix everything :rolleyes: They may as well turn to prayer imho.

Kell

Sleepy wrote:

They may as well turn to prayer imho.

They do pray- every Thursday through Sunday in every retail outlet in the country!!

Fr. O'Reilly's comments should be received in terms of being an indictment of successive corrupt governments as opposed to the people they apparantly serve. Think on it-

Spiralling cost of living- two people HAVE to work
Spiralling house prices- two people HAVE to work
Increased childcare costs- two people HAVE to work harder
Increased works hours- no one can be arsed to cook and sit at a family meal together
Net result- children lose out on what they need. Now add on a generation of their kids and it gets plain scarey. That generation WILL need a how to guide to tie their shoe laces.

Ireland is beginning to feel the negative effects that every country goes through when there is an explosion in prosperity. They more we have, the less we actually perceive we have. Suicide rates, especially those of young males, is growing virtually exponentially as pressure grows on people to "have more/do more". Its all bollíx.

Whether you like it or not, Haughey paved the way for the success we currently have by the back hander way of doing business. No current or new government is going to rock the boat and upset the mega rich business community, so I think we can accept that things are going to get much worse before they get better.

K-

Froot

metrovelvet wrote:

In the US the whole point is in the attempt, that even if you fail, you have to try. That's the "dream."

Ireland is well reputed for among other things, negativity. When this is dropped, you will see a huge change in the over all culture.

I agree about your view of America. I do however feel compelled to say that in America it has become an obsessive ruthless operation rather than a positive exercise. People are living and dying to fulfill that dream of being rich/famous/sexy etc and it has negatively affected their country in my eyes.

Ireland is following a similar path to America, minus the war and the 100% capitalism. We now have the same obesity rates that America had 10 years ago according to a recent newspaper article I read. This is somewhat backed up by this article

Irish people are, at heart, born complainers.

I think that we want the wealth and glamour of some american people and I think that we are forgetting that it is up to our voted government to provide the rest for us. Ireland does not have to be as individual as it is at the moment. We should expect more from out government. We should be breaking the politicians balls over every little detail in the running of this country. There is truth in every cliche and I have to say that many politicians are indecent just as any are decent. Quoting that heap of crap that was V for Vendetta: people should not be afraid of their governments, governments should be scared of their people.

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Sgt. Sensible wrote:

...

Very good post.

I understand what your saying about the virgins at home epidemic. Cork is packed to the brim with them. Its a condition in Ireland at the moment being honest. Simply walk around Cork city (I say Cork because its where I'm from, I'm sure every city is equally as applicable). Everywhere you have kids who are overweight simply from having such an opulent standard of living. Individually we are all doing fine but communally we are a sinking ship.

Private affluence and public squalor indeed, a very apt statement.

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I agree there are far more suitable places to 'grandstand', as you put it, DublinWriter.

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iguana wrote:

Indeed. He basically stood up at the funeral and blamed the parents for their kid's deaths. That's a horrible thing to do.

There is no possible way in hell you can extrapolate that meaning from what Fr. Martin O'Reilly said.

I can see where your coming from but I think you exaggerated a small bit.

Muggy Dev

Just a "Heads Up" for those following this thread.David McWilliam's new series on modern Ireland starts next Monday (6th) on RTE 1 at 9.30pm.I think its called "The Pope's Children" but don't hold me to that.

Could be very interesting..........

SmoothyG

Heres my 2 cents:

I agree with the OP, I do work hard, and long hours but i like my job, and the money that goes with it. absolutly no doubt in the world that having more money will never do any harm. (im talking earning more, not winning the euro millions).

However i do belive that for our society to evolve to its current state it needed people who live to make money, these people have pushed the celtic tiger and brouyght our country this far, there is still alot of work to do and if everyone did a job they loved like the OP then our society would fall back.

Also, a lot of the people who work in high paid office jobs actually like thier job. i do, as does everyone i work with.
I think the problem is with those who do these jobs and it makes them misrable. Or those who neglect thier children in place of a career, but who am i to judge others parenting?

DublinWriter

SmoothyG wrote:

I agree with the OP, I do work hard, and long hours but i like my job, and the money that goes with it. absolutly no doubt in the world that having more money will never do any harm. (im talking earning more, not winning the euro millions).

Good point, but it's a bit like Boyle's Law - the more you earn the more you'll spend.

I'm not criticising your post, but you use the words 'money' and 'paid' an awful lot. Earning more money does not necessarily equate to having a better quality of life.

There are two major infrastructural issues in Ireland that make living and working here a complete grind - transport and healthcare.

I think it's unfair of you to say that some people neglect their children in terms of having a career; most people don't have the choice. I can't really see how a couple on the average industrial wage with two kids could get by on one income in this country.

Sleepy

DublinWriter wrote:

I think it's unfair of you to say that some people neglect their children in terms of having a career; most people don't have the choice. I can't really see how a couple on the average industrial wage with two kids could get by on one income in this country.

Why do you think it's unfair? It's true.

Some people do neglect their kids for the good of their careers. Not everyone, nor I hope even the majority but from what I can see there's a significant number of kids and teenagers in this country who have clearly never received proper parenting. I'd lay my own salary on the fact that it's partially down to families where both parents sacrifice their family life for their career.

Blackjack

Sleepy wrote:

Why do you think it's unfair? It's true.

Some people do neglect their kids for the good of their careers. Not everyone, nor I hope even the majority but from what I can see there's a significant number of kids and teenagers in this country who have clearly never received proper parenting.

while I would agree with what you are saying, a large number of those kids have not received proper parenting because their parents weren't capable, not because both Parents were working (in many cases neither parents worked).

Sleepy

Sorry Blackjack, I'd be refering more to the 'D4' brats that clearly haven't been raised correctly rather than the inner city kids whose parents simply didn't give a proverbial. In that instance two parents working is the norm and if neither of those parents are prepared to sacrifice their career to some extent, they're going to deprive their children of a proper upbringing.

It's not a nice thing that we've become so obsessed with materialism that we put buying nice houses, fancy cars etc ahead of our children's well-being but that seems to be the world we live in.

DublinWriter

Sleepy wrote:

It's not a nice thing that we've become so obsessed with materialism that we put buying nice houses, fancy cars etc ahead of our children's well-being but that seems to be the world we live in.

Let's be realistic. These days both couples need to work if they're going to pay a mortgage. End of.

Sleepy

Did I say otherwise DublinWriter?

I said that if a couple have children at least one of them will have to sacrifice their career to some extent if they intend on raising their children properly. Dropping little Sophie off to the creche at 7am and collecting her from her childminder's house at 8pm does not constitute being a parent. This seems to be the way many children are being raised these days as both parents work (and commute) long hours in order to advance their careers.

That, imho, is pure selfishness, placing material wealth ahead of the well-being of one's children.

I would like to point out at this stage before the sexism argument starts that I don't see it as the mother's role to curtail her career to a more standard 9 to 5 or some form of flexi-time arrangement, if any future partner of mine were earning more than me or simply more career-driven than me, I'd be happy to be the one taking the foot off the gas career-wise.

If a couple can't afford for one or the other to lose some of their earning power for the sake of raising their children properly, I'd suggest they're living in too expensive a house tbh. Besides, is owning your own house more important than the well-being of your children? Renting can be a cheaper option.

Muggy Dev

Sleepy wrote:

Renting can be a cheaper option.

Quite right Sleepy.A typical €400k house will cost €2k approx per month in mortgage repayments whereas the same property will rent for between €1000 and €1200 per month.

There were two "whats wrong with this picture" moments during the first installement of David McWilliams new series.The first concerned the perverse ritual of "dropping off" of the nation's children to the nation's creches.The second was a shocking insight into our diet and eating habits.Since the program decided not to address these issues,I put the question "Why not?" directly to McWilliams in his live webcast yesterday.He did not reply.

Imagine if you will,an entire generation who will never have known,loved and been loved by,their parents.The family has always been the cornerstone of civilization.It transends nationionality and creed.There's big trouble coming down the tracks.

As for diet......take a look at this:

http://www.dohc.ie/press/releases/2004/20040310.html

walrusgumble

i have read most of yer posts, and i am really glad i share alot of the same opinions as most of ye. i have only started my first real job, legal sector, so i got all that crap ahead of me... people boasting bout this and that etc.. one thing if for sure, particularily in law, i will not be conforming to the snobbery, everyone out for themselves etc.. (time will tell thou)

but seriously, there is no point in talking about this and then just leaving it, maybe some of ye and myself included should be doing something about this like setting up a political party(everyone seems to know their aint muh difference between most of them policy wise and we are all good at complaining about them) maybe keep badgering our politicans next year when they come to the door.

probably the only way to sort things out if possible is to do that or at least get behind people in the socialist or green party etc