stand and die or cower and live

jimbling

$200 freezout.
It's on level 2 (30/60). Villain (to my right) is very loose aggressive. Very. Within the first few hands he was down to 1100 and was up to 3k and now is back down to 2k. He has shown some very dubious hands too.
I had 2300 when this hand occurred.
I am in the BB and get A10. Villain limps in the sb. I raise to 250. He calls. Flop is 379r. He bets 500. I was very close to raising as I reckoned there was a good chance he was just bluffing at the small flop. I fold. He shows 85o and calls me a fool.

about 10 hands later (of which he has been involved in most) I'm up against him again.
I have 2k. Villain covers with 3k.
I get AQo in LP. As expected, he raises to 300 (seems to be his standard raise). I think a while and up it to 900.
This has almost pot committed me, he must know this. I have already decided that if he goes all in im calling, and I am pretty sure that if he calls he will go all in on the flop - no matter what it is, so I decide I will call it.

He flat calls.
Flop:
Ks7s5h - I have Qs.
He goes all in.

So, what do you do now? and what do you reckon on the pf play, is this the right play against this type of player. (take it that you're confident you're in front, but know you will be under pressure if you don't hit).

cardshark202

Push preflop. If you're so sure you're ahead now then call.

phantom_lord

jimbling wrote:

$200 freezout.
It's on level 2 (30/60). Villain (to my right) is very loose aggressive. Very. Within the first few hands he was down to 1100 and was up to 3k and now is back down to 2k. He has shown some very dubious hands too.
I had 2300 when this hand occurred.
I am in the BB and get A10. Villain limps in the sb. I raise to 250. He calls. Flop is 379r. He bets 500. I was very close to raising as I reckoned there was a good chance he was just bluffing at the small flop. I fold. He shows 85o and calls me a fool.

about 10 hands later (of which he has been involved in most) I'm up against him again.
I have 2k. Villain covers with 3k.
I get AQo in LP. As expected, he raises to 300 (seems to be his standard raise). I think a while and up it to 900.
This has almost pot committed me, he must know this. I have already decided that if he goes all in im calling, and I am pretty sure that if he calls he will go all in on the flop - no matter what it is, so I decide I will call it.

He flat calls.
Flop:
Ks7s5h - I have Qs.
He goes all in.
So, what do you do now? and what do you reckon on the pf play, is this the right play against this type of player. (take it that you're confident you're in front, but know you will be under pressure if you don't hit).

What are the blinds?
If you're gonna shove no matter what comes on the flop why not do it pf.

Call if you think you're ahead, but I don't like the position you're in at all/

jimbling

cardshark202 wrote:

Push preflop. If you're so sure you're ahead now then call.

you reckon the push is the best way to play it then? I was debating the issue with myself and decided on the raise rather than the push.... have been dwelling on it since. everyone else think it should be a push?

5starpool

jimbling wrote:

you reckon the push is the best way to play it then? I was debating the issue with myself and decided on the raise rather than the push.... have been dwelling on it since. everyone else think it should be a push?

As you say yourself you are pot comitting yourself with a raise, so a push accompanyied by some jibber-jabber to entice him to call is encouraged.

jimbling

phantom_lord wrote:

What are the blinds?

mentioned in post: 30/60

phantom_lord wrote:

If you're gonna shove no matter what comes on the flop why not do it pf.

Well that is the debate. The reason I was swayed over to the other side is I didn't wan't to make the decision easy for him. If I go all in he will probably fold.
But of course, what I ended up doing was making the decision hard for me

phantom_lord wrote:

Call if you think you're ahead, but I don't like the position you're in at all/

I really have no idea if im ahead or not. Any maths people care to work out the odds for me.
his range is pretty much anything. Any Ax, any two face cards, suited connectors, any pair... i'd even say hands like J/Q/K with any medium card would be in there as well. What are the odds that this guy hit one of the three deck cards.

phantom_lord

jimbling wrote:

mentioned in post: 30/60

Sorrry missed that.

jimbling wrote:

I really have no idea if im ahead or not. Any maths people care to work out the odds for me.
his range is pretty much anything. Any Ax, any two face cards, suited connectors, any pair... i'd even say hands like J/Q/K with any medium card would be in there as well. What are the odds that this guy hit one of the three deck cards.

would he push on a flop where he hit nothing where you're pot committed after reraising him preflop.

I think you've to call anyway.

Ste05

If half of my stack is in the pot PF, then the rest of it follows on the flop. Especially against a loose player like this who is known to bluff alot.

Based on your read, he was going all-in on the Flop anyway so I still call.

phantom_lord

Board: Ks 7s 5h
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 48.5452 % 46.36% 02.18% { 22+, A2s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, A2o+, KTo+, QTo+, JTo }
Hand 2: 51.4548 % 49.27% 02.18% { AcQs }




Taking any ace, any two face cards, any pair and suited connectors, you're a slight favourite.

White Knight

Push preflop is the best line imo. Let him make the decison. When you put half your stack in and then fold on the flop(if u do), this type of player will overrun you any time you subsequently enter a pot.

Did just calling the 300 enter your mind? I know you said this is standard raise but its still a considerable raise considering you only have AQo?

jimbling

phantom_lord wrote:

Sorrry missed that.



would he push on a flop where he hit nothing where you're pot committed after reraising him preflop.

I know I say I'm almost pot committed, but really Im not.
I also have the chips left to play on. 1100 has still plenty of play in it. Id be short, but not nearly insurmountable.

would he push on missed flop...i wasn't entirely sure........ First (i.e. pf) I thought he would... but then, because he showed me the bluff a little earlier, I began thinking no way would he do it again so soon.....
of course no sooner had I decided that when the he knows that i know that he knows syndrome kicked in
oh to be decisive..... and time was running out ........

phantom_lord

White Knight wrote:

Push preflop is the best line imo. Let him make the decison. When you put half your stack in and then fold on the flop(if u do), this type of player will overrun you any time you subsequently enter a pot.

Did just calling the 300 enter your mind? I know you said this is standard raise but its still a considerable raise considering you only have AQo?

Calling or pushing I think are the two best options, he is so loose he's gonna call he reraise anyway, and you're left with a decision on the flop where you've already committed half your stack. calling means you can get away cheap.

jimbling

White Knight wrote:

Push preflop is the best line imo. Let him make the decison. When you put half your stack in and then fold on the flop(if u do), this type of player will overrun you any time you subsequently enter a pot.

Did just calling the 300 enter your mind? I know you said this is standard raise but its still a considerable raise considering you only have AQo?

Just calling did enter my mind.... but the range I gave for the guy is not exaggerated in the least.

I think the push would have been the best option..... the easiest anyway.

DapperGent

I think making it 900 is fine. Call now. Insta style.

Hitman Actual

I don't understand why you raised pre-flop, especially with the stack sizes involved. Against this sort of idiot, I just push preflop with AQ. And I call now. Chances are you're still ahead, and if behind, probably no more than a 3/1 dog (unless he fluked a monster flop).

Ste05

EDIT: Calling is fine too but for the below discussion I have ignored it.

jimbling wrote:

But of course, what I ended up doing was making the decision hard for me

IMO, your decision was made PF, this isn't a decision. It's just carrying through on your convictions. PF you either push, fold, or raise, which will basically pot commit you but is against against a wider range of holdings that the Villain can have.

Personally, I prefer this play to a push PF, he may be loose and aggressive but it's unlikely he's going to call off most of his chips with a hand that is in major trouble. Whereas, there's a MUCH better chance he'll either re-raise All-In (with a wider range of hands (Gap Concept) or call this raise and push any flop with a multitude of hands. So IMO all we're doing is changing the hand from a Pot odds hand to an implied odds hand, (we're getting basically guaranteed implied odds and so is he) if you know what I mean.

Look at it in this way. The hands he'll call our raise with are quite narrow, so I'd say we'll usually just pick up this 390, and we risk our whole stack. But when called we are at best a 50:50 and at worst a HUGE underdog. But the chances of him having these hands is slim. So I think it's certainly a +EV push.

But I've been thinking about it and I think a raise *might* have slightly higher EV. I haven't done the maths, it's just a hunch kinda thing at the moment, but I might try and work it out myself at a later date.

OK, here's my thoughts, if we raise to 900 or 1,000, we'll basically be playing for The 390 as it stands, (same as above) I think based on his previous play he's likely to push re-raise with all the hands he'll call All-In with as well as a wider range of hands that he won't call our push with (just the reverse Gap Concept) (increased EV for All-In PF but just slightly less FE)

Then because he's a tricky aggressive opponent, it's highly likely that if he only calls he's intending to push any flop regardless of his current holding or what the flop is (basically a stop n go). which I will call everytime, because my decision was made PF, but he could have a very wide range of hands here, and I would be willing to give up the implied odds to the opponent by only re-raising, safe in the knowledge that I know more often than not, I'm also getting implied odds from the Opponent that he will push Post Flop. I'm having trouble properly articulating this point, but basically I'm pot committed, and I think the PF decision needs to be carried through without second guessing yourslef, if he outflops you, mneh, just wait for the River.

I might prefer to have a slightly stronger hand than AQ but his chips are going somewhere soon so might as well have a pop at it.

Hitman Actual

DapperGent wrote:

I think making it 900 is fine.

But why? Because you think opponent will put all the money in on the flop, and you hope to still be ahead?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Given your stack size, the 900 re - raise is not good. I would shove or call. I'm not folding obviously. Leaning towards a shove.

As played I am going to advocate a fold. At 30 / 60 you can still some time to wait for a decent spot to get your chips in. All he needs is a pair to have you in terrible shape. He will also know what his image is like. He might be playing a reasonable hand here. You're not certain that you are ahead. You need to be to call IMO.

Cower and live. Then start looking for a spot to get the remainder of the stack in pre - flop.

You can fold and play on, you're not in trouble at 30/60, and hopefully you can find spots to get your chips back against this guy.

El Stuntman

dump the hand

then click the 'sit out next hand' button and go headbutt the wall a few times

jimbling

interesting... seems to be very different angles on how to play this.

The 900 raise was for a particular reason. It was to make him pay fully to try and outflop me. Calling would be giving up then and there, unless I hit the flop. I still think All-in would have made the decision too easy for him. It was also the case that there was other people to play behind me. If there was another all in (not villain , I would likely have folded).
But given all that, I think it would generally have a better outcome by going all in here.

As regards dealing with the current situation. I think since I had made the decision pre flop - even before putting in the 900 - to call his re-raise/flop all in (for reasons Ste has articulated better than I could) then I should continue with that line.

I decided to stand and die

jimbling

El Stuntman wrote:

dump the hand

then click the 'sit out next hand' button and go headbutt the wall a few times

lol... wise words my friend... wise words.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

El Stuntman

he lost and proceeded to headbutt the wall continuously for hours on end

Hitman Actual

Ah, I see now that you mean to get the money in regardless. In that case, it's not a bad way to play it at all. But having players to act behind you is a bit of a double-edged sword, I think. I know you say you can fold if someone (not the OR) pushes behind you, but I wouldn't like having to fold with half my stack in the middle.

jimbling

exactly as stuntman predicted.
I grudgingly called.
He had As5h.
I have 3 outs for the Q.
Guess what follows.......
Turn: Q
River: 5 :mad:

jimbling

lenny_leonard wrote:

Ah, I see now that you mean to get the money in regardless. In that case, it's not a bad way to play it at all. But having players to act behind you is a bit of a double-edged sword, I think. I know you say you can fold if someone (not the OR) pushes behind you, but I wouldn't like having to fold with half my stack in the middle.

I certainly wouldn't like it either, and there actually is a few situations where I will call. But generally the only players who will move here are going to have me hugely dominated.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

El Stuntman

LuckyLloyd wrote:

LoL. Is there anything worse than false hope??

no hope

marius

I think I push here pre-flop, im not worried about giving him an easy/tough decesion - I am just into biting off his 300 raise - a nice slap on the wrists.... I also think it is a fold now. He looks like he is crying for a call, especially after showing you the bluff previously and going on with the speech play. He knows you want to call him.

As said above 1100 is still o.k. at these levels.

Bandana boy

your biggest mistake here was not flopping a q

All kidding aside i think you need a stronger hand than AQ to raise planning to call all in on any flop.
If you had pp>88 i would probably take that line

jimbling

marius wrote:

I think I push here pre-flop, im not worried about giving him an easy/tough decesion - I am just into biting off his 300 raise - a nice slap on the wrists.... I also think it is a fold now. He looks like he is crying for a call, especially after showing you the bluff previously and going on with the speech play. He knows you want to call him.

As said above 1100 is still o.k. at these levels.

ya... but I still honestly believe he would have gone all in if he had hit nothing on the flop. Why was he calling the pre flop raise with A5 if not... what was he hoping for?

jimbling

Bandana boy wrote:

your biggest mistake here was not flopping a q

All kidding aside i think you need a stronger hand than AQ to raise planning to call all in on any flop.
If you had pp>88 i would probably take that line

hmmm... does that not depend on the villains range though? I mean, AQ is a hell of a lot better than most of what this guy could be holding. And dominating quite a few of his hands too.

Scouser in Dub

jimbling wrote:

ya... but I still honestly believe he would have gone all in if he had hit nothing on the flop. Why was he calling the pre flop raise with A5 if not... what was he hoping for?

a 5 on the flop and another on the river

jimbling

Scouser in Dub wrote:

a 5 on the flop and another on the river

lmao

Ste05

marius wrote:

I think I push here pre-flop, im not worried about giving him an easy/tough decesion - I am just into biting off his 300 raise - a nice slap on the wrists....

The thing is, pushing isn't a slap on the wrist at all, I often play very loose and aggressive and I love when someone pushes All-In over the top of me, they've just risked their whole tournament life and let me play perfectly. If they want to risk their tournament to try and pick off my PF stealing attempts feel free.

ollyk1

I personally feel the 900 bet was good provided you were willing to get it in on the flop. Raising to 900 here and then folding would be bad. Flat calling has merits too but reraising all-in sucks.

You got the guy to call off 45% of your stack with a badly dominated hand. Everything after that is results based thinking.

So what he got the rest of his money in good? Thats a mere sidenote. By the looks of how the guy played the hand he was going to stick his chips in with any draw and any piece of the board and maybe with absolutely nothing, so an awful lot of flops give you a chance to double through in great shape. The fact this guy is a bad aggressive player who on this occasion outflopped you means nothing.

The thing for me is its a tournie where this guy is spraying chips around the place and against this type of player you gotta be prepared to get it in but not by pushing stupidly instead by raising and letting him hang himself. In the long run obviously!! :rolleyes: