Aq

The Sheriff 101

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 ($50)
MP2 ($119.98)
MP3 ($34)
CO ($117.42)
Button ($290.06)
SB ($87.40)
Hero ($105.10)
UTG ($25.44)
UTG+1 ($94.63)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, A. MP1 posts a blind of $1. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $4, 1 fold, MP2 calls $4, MP3 calls $4, 1 fold, Button calls $4, 1 fold,

i know your hand needs alot of help but can u justify a call getting 6-1 on your money with such a weak holding after all that action ??
at the time i called but further consideration im not so sure

58o

you cannot even consider folding here imo.6-1 on your money what more do you want ? and you get away cheap if you don't hit

Gholimoli

i dont mind folding here at all.
would have called here if you had 92 ?you would still be getting the same odds.
im not saying a call is bad but a fold is not bad either.
i cant see if you have AQ suited or not ,if they are then i would deffo call for flush value but if they are not suited i dont mind letting them go.

The Sheriff 101

Gholimoli wrote:

i dont mind folding here at all.
would have called here if you had 92 ?you would still be getting the same odds.
im not saying a call is bad but a fold is not bad either.
i cant see if you have AQ suited or not ,if they are then i would deffo call for flush value but if they are not suited i dont mind letting them go.

not suited

TacT

you can call but would need to exercise a lot of caution (we are OOP for the duration of the hand with a marginal holding). Must be able to lay this down postflop if things get too hairy but personally, I'd be likely to fold preflop and save myself from a potentially hazardous situation depending on what the board brings. All table/player dependant of course. Everyone likes to have odds but sometimes it's better to pass them up and save yourself a lot of trouble/money.

Bandana boy

A fold here is fine and based on the amount of limp callers a raise is not completely crazy either

Gholimoli

TacT wrote:

you can call but would need to exercise a lot of caution (we are OOP for the duration of the hand with a marginal holding). Must be able to lay this down postflop if things get too hairy but personally, I'd be likely to fold preflop and save myself from a potentially hazardous situation depending on what the board brings. All table/player dependant of course. Everyone likes to have odds but sometimes it's better to pass them up and save yourself a lot of trouble/money.

Its not that you should pass up odds or take odds.
When you speak of odds you have to compare them against something to see if you are getting a good wager or not.
To say you are getting 2:1 or 5:1 on its own doesn’t really mean anything.
While a 5:1 on your money could be very attractive term, it can actually be a losing wager if you’re up against a 7:1 shot against you.
Here for example even though your getting 6:1(I actually don’t know if this the odds your getting but some1 mentioned 6:1 so im going by that) you have to see your getting 6:1 to do what is exactly.
In this case your single pair is generally not good and will often get you into trouble (negative implied odds sort of) as most will often refuse to let them go.
So your looking to flop two pair or better and even though I don’t know the exact odds of flopping that I know that it will not make 6:1 sound as attractive as it before.

cardshark202

A fold here is super super weak.

NickyOD

I call there with 7-2

Hectorjelly

NickyOD wrote:

I call there with 7-2

then I would be fairly sure you you lose money in spots like this

Hectorjelly

i think this is a clear raise

NickyOD

Hectorjelly wrote:

then I would be fairly sure you you lose money in spots like this

Soooted!!

ianmc38

I couldnt imagine folding this.

cardshark202

Hectorjelly wrote:

i think this is a clear raise

Ya raising > calling and folding is not an option.
Make it a pony.

valor

Hectorjelly wrote:

i think this is a clear raise

all day every day

Ste05

Hectorjelly wrote:

i think this is a clear raise

I agree, all that lovely dead money in the pot, all you need to do is get through the PFR.

The Sheriff 101

Hem a raise never occured to me must be why im struggling at the moment

TacT

whether it's super super weak or not is irrelevant. We're interested in accumulating chips. This is a terrible spot to accumulate some as we will need to hit the flop damn hard most of the time. We are out of position with a marginal hand. Obviously reraising is the strong and not profitable way to play it, so, depending on your opponents (I did say it was table/player dependant) you're looking to either, take it down preflop with a reraise, postflop with a big continuation bet if you miss or postflop by catching a monster like TTP/trips.

Most of the time we're going to miss and probably face a reraise from someone with a legitimate hand pre or postflop, so, long term it is not going to be a profitable play to make unless your image does the job for you or you're facing a bunch of extremely weak players with no hands pre and postflop which is all highly unlikely given the action?

I'm all for making strong plays but this is a rubbish spot to make one that all depends on too many things to be listed.

Hectorjelly

tact your post is a bit all over the place. We make it 30 to go now, then if there are any callers the pot will be bigger than our stack. So we push on any flop. The only person in the entire hand how has shown any strength at all is the PRF. He is the only person who could have AA or KK. If anyone else pushes preflop we call as its almost certainly a race.

A reraise here isnt even a bluff, it will fold out small pairs and so on though which is agood thing.

The Sheriff 101

Hectorjelly wrote:

tact your post is a bit all over the place. We make it 30 to go now, then if there are any callers the pot will be bigger than our stack. So we push on any flop. The only person in the entire hand how has shown any strength at all is the PRF. He is the only person who could have AA or KK. If anyone else pushes preflop we call as its almost certainly a race.

A reraise here isnt even a bluff, it will fold out small pairs and so on though which is agood thing.

intresting post i wouldnt really wnat to be commiting so many chips with AQ ever never mind in this spot is it profitable long term to play AQ so strong if we raise to 30 as u said we are putting in a large chunk of our chips and all i can see calling that size raise is AA KK QQ although i can see your point about the raisng to get rid of small pairs and AK but really can i expect QQ to flat call so i cnat really see the point of making it 30 as all that will call the raise will have us completely dominated

Ste05

The Sheriff 101 wrote:

intresting post i wouldnt really wnat to be commiting so many chips with AQ ever never mind in this spot is it profitable long term to play AQ so strong if we raise to 30 as u said we are putting in a large chunk of our chips and all i can see calling that size raise is AA KK QQ although i can see your point about the raisng to get rid of small pairs and AK but really can i expect QQ to flat call so i cnat really see the point of making it 30 as all that will call the raise will have us completely dominated

Basically you're not expecting to get called, you're expecting the PFR to push with AA, KK QQ, or fold with anything else. And any other player will usually fold but might push with their small to middle pair. In that case you can happily call anyone other than the PFR (who I'll come back to in a minute) happy in the knowledge that it's a race and you're getting nice odds on the call.

However, in general what will happen (a very large % of the time) the PFR will fold and then everyone else will fold, making it free money basically.

The next problem arises is the PFR pushes, usually this will mean AA or KK, possibly QQ and occasionally AK, however if he's a bit of a maniac then it might be trickier, but in general I'll just fold, you've taken a +EV gamble (i.e. the re-raise hoping he doesn't have QQ+) that just didn't work out.

If he simply calls, then he's a donkey and how to play the rest of the hand depends on what sort of a donkey he is.

EDIT: Forgot to add.

If anyone else just calls, then the pot is too big to check the flop, and we just open push hoping either (a) we hit or (b) they think they are beaten (c) they think we hit or (d) were only calling hoping to make trips (another donkey) and didn't. etc. etc. we should have decent(ish) fold equity.

Have a search for something known as a Squeeze play for the basics behind the move.

TacT

Hectorjelly wrote:

tact your post is a bit all over the place. We make it 30 to go now, then if there are any callers the pot will be bigger than our stack. So we push on any flop. The only person in the entire hand how has shown any strength at all is the PRF. He is the only person who could have AA or KK. If anyone else pushes preflop we call as its almost certainly a race.

A reraise here isnt even a bluff, it will fold out small pairs and so on though which is agood thing.

Fair enough but I don't like it and I wouldn't do it personally, especially at these stakes where someone is likely to put you all-in with 44 and god knows what else, you miss, lose a stack and the game goes on.

I'm seeing this play as a long-term loss, not profit but if you can convince me otherwise then I'm all ears. All I can conclude from this thread is that playing the hand as suggested is suiciding a buyin for no good reason with a mediocre hand OOP.

cardshark202

TacT wrote:

Fair enough but I don't like it and I wouldn't do it personally, especially at these stakes where someone is likely to put you all-in with 44 and god knows what else, you miss, lose a stack and the game goes on.

I'm seeing this play as a long-term loss, not profit but if you can convince me otherwise then I'm all ears. All I can conclude from this thread is that playing the hand as suggested is suiciding a buyin for no good reason with a mediocre hand OOP.

Its already been demonstrated that raising is +EV.

cooker3

Interesting thread this, I probably wouldn't have considered raising in this spot if it was me, shall have to think again

TacT

+EV it may be but I have gone broke in this spot plenty of times making this play with AQ/AK suited or not and as such, wouldn't bother and pick a better spot to pick up chips.

Someone please show me some HH's where this worked and I'll buy a piece of that and include it in my game. Otherwise you can keep saying +EV till the cows come home but if I don't see profit, I'm not making that play with that hand in that position to that action.

luckylucky

TacT wrote:

+EV it may be but I have gone broke in this spot plenty of times making this play with AQ/AK suited or not and as such, wouldn't bother and pick a better spot to pick up chips.

Someone please show me some HH's where this worked and I'll buy a piece of that and include it in my game. Otherwise you can keep saying +EV till the cows come home but if I don't see profit, I'm not making that play with that hand in that position to that action.

I also agree with others that a raise is +EV, if you are re-raised by original raiser u can get away from ur hand, with the exception if original raiser is a total rock who would only raise with QQ or better.

You say you have gone broke plenty of times with AK or AQ in this spot - this is a cash game u r playing no? losing ur stack happens and happens time and time again in no limit hold'em, being overly fearful of this happening will hinder ur play.

In cash games it's all about EV+.
Let's put it this way if someone is prepared to go all-in with 44 - i'll take the coin-flip(yes i know AQ is slight underdog) as there is the dead money to take into account.