Interesting rule problem

connie147

In th club today in the €150 F/O, player raises from early position.player in seat 10 is in the tank. He announces "reraise" and then notices his cards are gone(taken by the dealer).Whats the correct ruling.

point to note:when he announcad reraise, players in seat 1 and 2 both mucked before the problem was spotted., but nobody else got a chance to call the reraise before the problem was brought to the attention of the table(player in seat 3 was the original raiser)

ChipLdr

Its the players responsibilty to protect his/her hand. Hand continues as played and player should be told to protect his hand by the dealer.

I think?

NickyOD

connie147 wrote:

He announces "reraise" and then notices his cards are gone

lol!

His hand is dead. It cannot be taken out of the muck and he's not forced to reraise.

connie147

NickyOD wrote:

lol!

His hand is dead. It cannot be taken out of the muck and he's not forced to reraise.

Is he not made put in the min raise when he announced raise?

connie147

ChipLdr wrote:

Its the players responsibilty to protect his/her hand. Hand continues as played and player should be told to protect his hand by the dealer.

I think?

Obviously he's not getting his cards back, the question is if he is connitted to putting in the raise into the pot even though he wont be playing any further part in the hand

bohsman

I would never make him put the extra chips in, a lot of those rulings are way too harsh.

Lafortezza

Even if a verbal reraise is binding by the cardroom rules, the ruling should be made in the spirit of the game, give him a warning and then point and laugh at him.

azzeretti

Whats the difference bewteen this and a drunk in seat 10 who has mucked his cards anyway and just starts shouting Reraise - Can you make him pay too?

I think you have to let this guy go and put it down to bad luck and bad table management (on the part of the player not protecting is hand) Not sure he should be penialised with chips.

kincsem

If the cards are IN the muck they are gone but afaik Bob Ciaffone (a noted rules expert) says that if the cards accidently touch the muck but are identifiable they can be retrieved. I assume by identifiable he means "visible", as in together / and separate from the main muck, and not shuffled in.
But everyone treats the muck as the an untouchable area, which I think is a bit mad.

OilBeefHooked2

NickyOD wrote:

lol!

His hand is dead. It cannot be taken out of the muck and he's not forced to reraise.

Is this ruling the same if the player who announced reraise had already moved chips across the line before realising his cards were mucked.

NickyOD

david-k wrote:

Is this ruling the same if the player who announced reraise had already moved chips across the line before realising his cards were mucked.

No. You can't raise if you have no cards. Once your cards were mucked the action was no longer on you. You are out of the hand.

DeVore

NickyOD wrote:

No. You can't raise if you have no cards. Once your cards were mucked the action was no longer on you. You are out of the hand.

Yeah, I agree with Nicky. I think a lot of rules are too harshly applied and should be taken in context but that can lead to problems too...

DeV.

5starpool

Yep, this is definitely where the spirit of the game should be adherred to rather than the letter. It is of course his responsibility to protect his cards, however this should be a warning situation to be honest.

I seen a situation yesterday in the Fitz where a common sense ruling + warning was given by a young dealer to a good player whose first time it was in the Fitz when he did the American style raise i.e all in his hand but placed in 2 motions. I always think that 'procedural' rules such as this can be applied in a less ruthless fashion.

On a side note, the guy I mentioned above was a bloody good player from Sweden who has just moved to Dublin. He was telling me he used to be a Tournament Director over there and that he is good mates with Eric Friberg from then too. He seemed like a top bloke too, and was a dangerous player to have to my direct left all night.

Scotty #

Am I missing something here?? A player raised in early position and then a player in late position announces raise only to find the dealer has already swiped his cards. Has the dealer taken the players cards before the action has reached the player? If so then its bad dealing and the player should not lose out!! Either find his cards or re-deal.

NickyOD

Scotty # wrote:

Am I missing something here?? A player raised in early position and then a player in late position announces raise only to find the dealer has already swiped his cards. Has the dealer taken the players cards before the action has reached the player? If so then its bad dealing and the player should not lose out!! Either find his cards or re-deal.

That would be a really bad ruling. For starters too much action has taken place for a misdeal to be called. Secondly It's the players responsibility to protect his own hand. Thirdly you should almost never retrieve a hand from the muck, only in extreme circumstances and I wouldn't consider this one of them. Had he reraised and THEN the dealer mucked his cards I would attempt to retrieve his cards but with a warning, but only a dealer that is completley asleep would do this.

This situation probably wasn't the dealers fault. If the guys cards are way out in the table and he isn't doing anything its easy to assume he has folded. I always encourage dealers to muck folded hands immediately and that's obviusly what happened.

Scotty #

Yea probably to much action for a re-deal but it still looks to me like the dealer took up the cards before action had reached the player?? It may be that the player had not retrieved his cards from the table after the initial deal but he must have done or he wouldn't announce raise. So he must have looked and then left them out far enough for the dealer to think they were folded. But.... shouldn't the dealer wait until the action reaches the player before collecting the cards?? The dealer is "folding" the player out of turn, whether he intends to fold or not is irrelevant, and giving info to preceding players who have yet to act. This also encourages other players to act out of turn as they think its up to them next as the dealer has taken the previous players hand.

bohsman

Most common dealer error, anyone sitting in seat 1 or 10 in particular needs to protect their hand as the dealer may think they are part of the muck and sweep them in.