Irish Judo open yesterday. A question re. one of the finals.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Anyone see the fight between the Ghanian fight 'Nartay' and the French chap?.

With 8 seconds left and the fight being stopped & stood up again the French lad checked the score board. Seeing he was 110-0 points ahead and 8 seconds to go he literally ran away from Nartey, avoiding taking grips.

Nartay threw up his hands in a "WTF" gesture at the ref. The bell went and the French lad got the win, but got a few Boo's from the crowd.

Is this against the rules, not taking grips and totally avoiding your oponent?.

If not against the rules its certainly against the spirit of competition in not allowing your component the oppertunity to fight. I mean, we've all slowed down a fight when leading with seconds to go. But to totally avoid fighting?.

Btw, Julian Delorian (Judo instr. @ SBG) took a gold in his catagory.

judomick

I think with 8 seconds left the french guy could have been penalised but only with a shido for passivity, in which case the Ghanian still would have lost,


Fair play to Julien thats a bronze in the Welsh gold in Ireland, and hes fighting in the Scottish next week!

Nothingcompares

I think I was watching the other mat while this was going on. Was this the bout that went into extra time?

Anyway, in an important bout and you're up a score with 10seconds to go, it's up to the other guy to come and get you. I remember I had a match and there was about 10 seconds left and I was up by wazari and I said, hey I'll go and get an ippon in the good auld spirit of judo, 3 seconds to go he throws me for ippon and i lose .

LukeyJudo22

It takes about 25 seconds of inactivity to get a shido for passivity and the French lad could have given away three penalties if he wanted if he was wazari and yuko ahead so yes he defintly did the right thing.

Spirit of judo is one thing but when your ahead in an extremly tough match (against a dangerous and explosive opponent) that you've been training months for and you have to just avoid your opponent for 8 seconds to win.... I think I'd take the win there.

Jigoro kano must be doing 500rpm in his grave haha

Thats just tactics Mairt at that level you take the win wheter its by a clear cut ippon or a single passivity.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Cheer's, thanks for clearing that one up for me.

I was beaten to first in last year's Leinster open for not defending a similar lead with 15 seconds to go. Inexperience beat me really, as afterwards Julian told me he was shouting to me to defend my lead too. I hadn't checked the board and got slammed

Oh well, some people get cauliflower ear's, I have a cualiflower arse from getting slammed!.

judomick

btw awesome display Luke some sweet sumi gaeshi's

NeiloMac

Dont think he was a wazari up only a yuko, with only 8 secounds it was a clever move,
The fought earlier in the 73 and it went on for almost 10 mins, they were so even,

There was some great fights alright, good days judo

Very good event. -73kg was class.

LukeyJudo22

Cheers Mick. I really enjoyed fighting. It was the best Irish Open in years imo. Scotland this weekend now. We've a good team!

Pingu

I was wondering regarding one of the first round matches, i think it was in the U81kg category. A guy stood up twice out of armlocks and lifted his opponent. But both times dropped his opponent on his head, effectively spiking him - i was at the side of the mat and the second time the ref clearly stated to him not to drop his opponent.

While this is incredibly unsporting and obviously someone bitter and lashing out because he was getting schooled. But should he not of gotten a Hansoku-make if not the first time - definately the second time?

Are ref's afraid to call it?

Burnt

IJF wrote:

HANSOKU-MAKE (Grave Infringements Group)
(b) Hansoku-make is given to any contestant who has committed a Grave Infringement (or who having been given three (3) Shidos, commits a further Slight Infringement):

...
(26) To lift off the Tatami the opponent who is lying on the Tatami and to drive him back onto the Tatami.
...
(28) To disregard the Referee's instructions.
...
(30) To make any action which may endanger or injure the opponent especially the opponent's neck or spinal vertebrae, or may be against the spirit of Judo. ...

from

http://www.ijf.org/rule/rule_referee.php#Prohibitedactsandpenalties

Nothingcompares

Pingu wrote:

I was wondering regarding one of the first round matches, i think it was in the U81kg category. A guy stood up twice out of armlocks and lifted his opponent. But both times dropped his opponent on his head, effectively spiking him - i was at the side of the mat and the second time the ref clearly stated to him not to drop his opponent.


Are ref's afraid to call it?

This is hilarious. I was the guy "spiking" my opponent. You obviously weren't paying attention or fully understand judo rules. Who are you and where do you train? I'll gladly come to your club and explain them? Are you in NUIG?

I can't remember how I got in the position, I think It was an attempted sumigaeshi. Anyway here is the rule i was exploiting.

17. Application of matte
f)
When one contestant regains a standing or semi-standing position from Newaza bearing his opponent on his back.

g)
When one contestant is in, or from Newaza regains, a standing position and lifts his opponent, who is lying on his back with his leg(s) around any part of the standing contestant, clear of the Tatami.

So yes, your man had me in an armlock. I could have attempted to (probably should have) to escape the lock technically but instead I decided to stand up. If he had applied it correctly I wouldn't have been able to stand up. Funnily enough the same thing happened again. The referee never told me to stop doing what I was doing. He told me to tidy my suit up.

You'll understand that I never spiked the guy. He was off the ground a few inches but it was gravity that caused him to fall back down. IF he did fall on his head/neck it is because he was arching his back to crank the armlock on. When the referee said matte, he let go of me and fell to the ground. I didn't drive him to the ground.

While this is incredibly unsporting and obviously someone bitter and lashing out because he was getting schooled. But should he not of gotten a Hansoku-make if not the first time - definately the second time?

I'm bitter? And I lashed out? There very unfair and wrong accusations. I demand you retract them. Instantly. In fairness I lost fairly comprehensively so saying I got schooled is probably fair enough. No I shouldn't have got a Hansoku-make.

Now, tell me where you train.

Pingu

I didn't take issue with you lifting him to get out out of an armlock - it's a legitimate escape.

The problem i have is that you should have placed him back on the mat to ensure his safety, instead you lifted him higher after matte was called and let go of him when he was inverted - which resulted in him coming down both times on his head/neck - incredibly unsporting, you may have gotten away with the benefit of the doubt after the first one but then you repeated the spike.

BlackGore

Nothingcompares wrote:

You obviously weren't paying attention or fully understand judo rules. Who are you and where do you train? I'll gladly come to your club and explain them? Are you in NUIG?
...
...

You'll understand that I never spiked the guy. He was off the ground a few inches but it was gravity that caused him to fall back down. IF he did fall on his head/neck it is because he was arching his back to crank the armlock on. When the referee said matte, he let go of me and fell to the ground. I didn't drive him to the ground.


I'm bitter? And I lashed out? There very unfair and wrong accusations. I demand you retract them. Instantly. In fairness I lost fairly comprehensively so saying I got schooled is probably fair enough. No I shouldn't have got a Hansoku-make.

Now, tell me where you train.

nice attempt at intimidation tactics there bud, but to be honest, you just come off as the kind of bitter person who likes to lash out.

By the way, most judoka who last beyond the first night's training know how to fall unassisted without landing on their head. If he did indeed voluntarily let go of you, why didn't he attempt to breakfall??

Nothingcompares

Pingu wrote:

I didn't take issue with you lifting him to get out out of an armlock - it's a legitimate escape.

The problem i have is that you should have placed him back on the mat to ensure his safety, instead you lifted him higher after matte was called and let go of him when he was inverted - which resulted in him coming down both times on his head/neck - incredibly unsporting, you may have gotten away with the benefit of the doubt after the first one but then you repeated the spike.

Hmm, I'd love to see this again on tape. I saw my opponent and his coaching staff numerous times after the bout and neither of them, nor any of the referees mentioned my unsportmanship or gave me the impression they were pissed off. Really pingu I have to questoin your experience. He had me in an armlock, are you sure I would be able to exercise this amount of control over how he fell (and to answer blackgores question, he was only a few inches off the ground, he didnt need to break fall, and if he did, I couldn't prevent him from doing it if i could). In my mind, the further I lifted him the more likely he is to fall on his ass. I've been slammed from guard before and it's very painful, I had a bruised coxyx for a few weeks. I'd never attempt to do it to anyone else.

End.

Nothingcompares

BlackGore wrote:

nice attempt at intimidation tactics there bud, but to be honest, you just come off as the kind of bitter person who likes to lash out.

By the way, most judoka who last beyond the first night's training know how to fall unassisted without landing on their head. If he did indeed voluntarily let go of you, why didn't he attempt to breakfall??

hi there. . you obviously didn't see the bout.

BlackGore

No, I didn't. I'm going on my own competition experiences of being in a similar position to yours, and my safety in the knowledge that if I have enough strength and control over the situation to stand while in an armlock and bring my opponent up with me, I have the ability to control his subsequent descent, whether he likes it or not, especially if he's in a potentially dangerous position like the one described above. That is what my experience has taught me, and I'm glad to read that Pingu has learnt that too. Who taught you?

Nothingcompares

BlackGore wrote:

No, I didn't.

Be quiet then because it hasn't been described properly for anyone that wasn't there watching it to know what happened. Anyway, I've no problems, my opponent had no problem and the referee had no problem. What are we discussing?

Who taught me what? Judo? I'm largely self-taught.

BlackGore

It shows. Respect for your opponent and his safety is usually fundamental to teaching, but hey, as you said, I wasn't watching, he may indeed have opted to release you and float gently onto his head. Who's to say what goes through a young man's mind when his thoughts turn to judo?
Actually, I'm surprised you haven't asked where I train, so you can teach me some of your wisdom.

Pingu

I have never claimed to be highly experienced in judo.

I was just looking for a clarification of the rules, provided by Burnt, cheers for that.

And i know if i'd ever landed someone like that in a rugby match or now in judo my own team mates would take issue with me.

It was quite dissappointing as a relatively new person to the sport to see such disrespect in a competition - and to receive effectively a challenge from you when i ask a legitimate question.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Pingu wrote:

I have never claimed to be highly experienced in judo.

I was just looking for a clarification of the rules, provided by Burnt, cheers for that.

And i know if i'd ever landed someone like that in a rugby match or now in judo my own team mates would take issue with me.

It was quite dissappointing as a relatively new person to the sport to see such disrespect in a competition - and to receive effectively a challenge from you when i ask a legitimate question.

My god what are you looking for 'Nothingcompares' to do, fall on his own sword for you?.

I think most people here will be satisfied that he's shown that both his opponent, his opponents team mates and the ref's had no problem with his behaviour on the mat.

As regards to his "challenge" to you. Well writing what you did is bound to provoke a response from someone. I'm sure it wasn't a serious challenge to beat you up or anything silly.

And just for the record I didn't see that bout, and like you I'm pretty new (3 yrs) to Judo and wouldn't feel confident enough to call it either. Plus as we've only the word of 'Nothingcompares' (I wish people would use their real names sometimes, mine's Martin but its taken here) and since he wasn't disqualified for his actions we'll have to accept them as the truth.

Pingu

Mairt wrote:

My god what are you looking for 'Nothingcompares' to do, fall on his own sword for you?.

.....
As regards to his "challenge" to you. Well writing what you did is bound to provoke a response from someone. I'm sure it wasn't a serious challenge to beat you up or anything silly.

And just for the record I didn't see that bout, and like you I'm pretty new (3 yrs) to Judo and wouldn't feel confident enough to call it either.

....

TBH I'm not looking for anything from him - i posted in good faith as i'm not too experienced, looking for clarification of the rules of what for all the world looked like an infringment. Like you did in asking about the French and Ghanain fight.

His demanding to know where i train is a little worrying though. But hey, you'll have that

arybvtcw0eolkf

Pingu wrote:

TBH I'm not looking for anything from him - i posted in good faith as i'm not too experienced, looking for clarification of the rules of what for all the world looked like an infringment. Like you did in asking about the French and Ghanain fight.

His demanding to know where i train is a little worrying though. But hey, you'll have that

Group hug, we're all friends again.

Clive

Having competed against the dude in question today, I just want to say that he was an intense, yet gentlemanly competitor at all times.

Nothingcompares

Also good looking.

Hey Pingu, it wasn't you said "hey I saw one guy pick another guy up from the armbar position and then release him causing to land on what looks like his head. Surely this is an illegal maneouver and the person should have been disqualifed".

You called me a jerk. So in fairness you should apologise because you didn't understand the incident.

Pingu

Apologise? Why?

There's no question of the fact that you spiked him - twice.

I'm experienced enough to know that one should place their opponent carefully back on the mat when you lift them out of an arm bar and that what you did was a blatent disregard for your opponents safety.

Nothingcompares

this is a spike

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h51AMZq2Gi4

i'm gradually losing patience with you pingu.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Nothingcompares wrote:

i'm gradually losing patience with you pingu.

Have to agree with you there.

judoka

Nothingcompares wrote:

This is hilarious. I was the guy "spiking" my opponent. You obviously weren't paying attention or fully understand judo rules. Who are you and where do you train? I'll gladly come to your club and explain them? Are you in NUIG?

I can't remember how I got in the position, I think It was an attempted sumigaeshi. Anyway here is the rule i was exploiting.


So yes, your man had me in an armlock. I could have attempted to (probably should have) to escape the lock technically but instead I decided to stand up. If he had applied it correctly I wouldn't have been able to stand up. Funnily enough the same thing happened again. The referee never told me to stop doing what I was doing. He told me to tidy my suit up.

You'll understand that I never spiked the guy. He was off the ground a few inches but it was gravity that caused him to fall back down. IF he did fall on his head/neck it is because he was arching his back to crank the armlock on. When the referee said matte, he let go of me and fell to the ground. I didn't drive him to the ground.



I'm bitter? And I lashed out? There very unfair and wrong accusations. I demand you retract them. Instantly. In fairness I lost fairly comprehensively so saying I got schooled is probably fair enough. No I shouldn't have got a Hansoku-make.

Now, tell me where you train.

If I might weigh in with my $0.02 here. I am very concerned my the attitude you are showing here, Nothingcompares. I'll try to keep my comments to a few brief points.

Point 1.

Nothingcompares wrote:

He was off the ground a few inches but it was Legally, this is quite a dangerous statement for you to make. As someone taking part in a contact sport, you have a duty of care to your opponents. You cannot disregard this duty of care. Some may make the argument that the event carries a disclaimer of liability, but this was not the case on the Irish Open entry form. The disclaimer on the Irish Open form read:

Neither the I.J.A. nor it’s agents accept responsibility for any injury, damage or loss that may be incurred during these Championships.

Now, if the person you dropped was injured, you are not in a position to stand back and say that it was gravitys he got injured. Since you brought gravity into it I'll go one further to say that Newton's Third Law states the following:

To every action (force applied) there is an equal but opposite reaction (equal force applied in the opposite direction).

. Since you initiated the motion which resulted in gravity returning your opponent to the mat (as you claimed yourself) then you are at fault. Not gravity. Blaming gravity for this is as stupid as claiming that the cause of poverty is poor people.
Claiming in a public forum that you are not responsible for an injury that occurs because of one of your actions could put you in a precarious legal position later on, should someone ever decide to take action against you as a result of an injury.

Point 2.

I'll gladly come to your club and explain them? Are you in NUIG?

Have you something against the NUI, Galway Judo Club? I am a member of that club and to my knowledge we have several qualified referees and coaches at our disposal who we learn the rules of Judo from. I was on the IJF, EJU and IJA websites and I don't believe you are listed as a refereeing consultant on any of them.

Who are you and where do you train?

The only answer to that is : Who are you and where do you train? At least show your face before expecting others to show theirs.

Point 3.

I was the guy "spiking" my opponent.

Again, putting yourself in a precarious position. Putting something in apostrophes won't wash in legal proceedings.

Point 4.

I could have attempted to (probably should have) to escape the lock technically but instead I decided to stand up.

Standing up is a technical escape. Its what happened afterwards is the issue.

Point 5.

No I shouldn't have got a Hansoku-make.

You don't decide that. The rules do, and under the rules you should have.

Point 6.

Now, tell me where you train.

Again, the only answer is the question of where you train.

Now for some of the issues raised in your other posts:
Point 7.

e had me in an armlock, are you sure I would be able to exercise this amount of control over how he fell

You had enough control to lift him. In the circumstances you should have waited for the matte then placed him on the ground. Saying he let go won't cut it either, you had to have a grip on his suit to lift him as you did.

Point 8.

You called me a jerk.

Pingu didn't call you a jerk. Nowhere in his/her posts is the word jerk even mentioned.

Point 9.

I saw my opponent and his coaching staff numerous times after the bout and neither of them, nor any of the referees mentioned my unsportmanship or gave me the impression they were pissed off.

Well that's the answer a 7 year old would give. You're not fighting for your opponent, your coaching staff or the referees... You fight for yourself end of story. Anyway, his own coaching staff? Who do you think you are? Nobody I have ever met in Judo has their own coaching staff. They are his teachers and mentors and calling them his staff is extremely insulting to both them and him.

Point 10.

Who taught me what? Judo? I'm largely self-taught.

Well thats like saying you're the worlds best lover because you have spent several years pulling yourself off. Get real. Nobody can teach themselves Judo. If you have then go to the Kodokan and apply for a teaching position because you'll be the only one to have achieved that.

Nothingcompares

If I might weigh in with my $0.02 here. I am very concerned my the attitude you are showing here, Nothingcompares. I'll try to keep my comments to a few brief points.

Point 1.

Sorry I didn't quite understand your response to my first point but surely if you throw someone or attempt to throw someone with a technique everything you've said above applies as well.

Point 2.
Have you something against the NUI, Galway Judo Club? I am a member of that club and to my knowledge we have several qualified referees and coaches at our disposal who we learn the rules of Judo from. I was on the IJF, EJU and IJA websites and I don't believe you are listed as a refereeing consultant on any of them.
The only answer to that is : Who are you and where do you train? At least show your face before expecting others to show theirs.

Point 2, no I'm not a referee. Just about my identity, I'm well known to everyone that reads this forum on a regular basis. Secondly, I WAS COMPETING IN THE IRISH OPEN, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MY PERFORMANCE ON THE MAT INFRONT OF 300 PEOPLE, I THINK MY FACE HAS BEEN SHOWN TO PINGU

Point 9. Well that's the answer a 7 year old would give. You're not fighting for your opponent, your coaching staff or the referees... You fight for yourself end of story. Anyway, his own coaching staff? Who do you think you are? Nobody I have ever met in Judo has their own coaching staff. They are his teachers and mentors and calling them his staff is extremely insulting to both them and him.

Heh, staff was obviously the wrong word. It would have been more accurate to say Coach.

Point 10. Well thats like saying you're the worlds best lover because you have spent several years pulling yourself off. Get real. Nobody can teach themselves Judo. If you have then go to the Kodokan and apply for a teaching position because you'll be the only one to have achieved that.

Thanks for lowering the tone of this disscussion. I have an idea who you are and it isn't my intention to have arguments with reasonable people on the internet. If I was a rational person I wouldn't have even replied to this thread, not that I'm guilty of undersportsmanly conduct but the situation had massive potetial to be exagerated. I was at the intervarsities last year so I possibly met you then.

I'll just finish by saying that you didn't see the match so you can't really speak with any authority on the subject.

judoka

Actually, I did see the contest.

Nothingcompares

oh right. So seriously, just forget what I've written above and answer me this, do actually think I spiked him and/or broke any of the judo rules? despite my responses in this thread I'm taking this allegation very seriously and I would take genuine critism on board.

judoka

Yes, I don't think it was malicious, but I do think that it was very dangerous.

Nothingcompares

I am surprised.