AA - Standard Line?

ianmc38 · 10-10-2006 1:14pm #1

I've barely played any online poker in the last month, so i setup a new account last night.

2/4 6 Max

I'm 24/14 over 220 hands.

Villain is quite tight at 18/6. Effective stacks are 500.

He opens UTG for 16. I repop it to 50 on the button with AA.

Flop (106)

KQ8 rainbow

Check check

Turn (106)

6d completing the rainbow

Villain leads for 50. I call.

River (206)

2c

He leads for 100. I call.

Comments?

masterclass · 10-10-2006 1:31pm

Personally would have bet the pot after the flop to see where you stood

Gholimoli · 10-10-2006 1:34pm

masterclass wrote:

Personally would have bet the pot after the flop to see where you stood

and what would you do if he reraises?

standard Ian against a villain that tight.

LuckyLloyd · 10-10-2006 1:36pm

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masterclass · 10-10-2006 1:36pm

I'd probably fold to be honest,

Chances are he's certainly not on AA or KK as he would have re-raised.
I'm guessing he's on JJ or QQ

ianmc38 · 10-10-2006 1:42pm

masterclass wrote:

Personally would have bet the pot after the flop to see where you stood

Why? A tight player raises UTG. What range of hands do you put him on?
He more than likely has AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ or KQ (less likely).

masterclass · 10-10-2006 1:47pm

ianmc38 wrote:

Why? A tight player raises UTG. What range of hands do you put him on?
If I bet and he calls, he more than likely has AK, AQ, AA, KK, QQ or KQ (less likely).

Because you are the one that has re-raised, he know's you're on a monster, you know he's not gonna bluff out of it, Why give him free cards to catch up if he is on a str8 draw for instance.

That's just my opinion but checking that flop with AA without any re-re-raise is the best play.

LuckyLloyd · 10-10-2006 1:49pm

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TacT · 10-10-2006 1:50pm

hopefully all is well and you took what you could from him or lost the bare minimum? I like your line of thinking in the hand, I'd be praying he has AK and not QQ/KK. JJ out of the equation by the looks of it. QK, no chance.

masterclass · 10-10-2006 1:51pm

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Given this players stats, it is incredibly unlikely that he went four BBs and then called a reraise to 50 OOP with J10.

Yes, you are correct..was just trying to make a point of no more free cards ......

masterclass · 10-10-2006 1:59pm

TacT wrote:

hopefully all is well and you took what you could from him or lost the bare minimum? I like your line of thinking in the hand, I'd be praying he has AK and not QQ/KK. JJ out of the equation by the looks of it. QK, no chance.

I agree with K Q out of the equation, too much to call for a re-raise, but JJ is worth a flop. And again, my point is you gotta bet the flop to not see any more cards

LuckyLloyd · 10-10-2006 2:02pm

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masterclass · 10-10-2006 2:06pm

LuckyLloyd wrote:

"No free cards" is a concept that cannot be applied in every situation. In this hand there are no obvious draws that Villian could be chasing. There is the distinct possibillity that they have flopped a set and we are already beat.

As such, it is correct to check, call to the end - losing the minimum if we are beat and earning the maximum that Villian is willing to bet on AK / AQ / JJ. Because of the re - raise pre - flop Villian will probably fold these hands to a stiff reraise on turn or river.

I can guarantee you, 95% of pro's would bet the flop here, GUARANTEE.
Ian, You going to tell us what happened ?

LuckyLloyd · 10-10-2006 2:08pm

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masterclass · 10-10-2006 2:20pm

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Huh, guh??

I'm the one that's confused

bubbleking · 10-10-2006 2:28pm

at best (for you) he has AK
worst a set of kings or queens.

i like your thinking in the hand against a villain that tight on that board its best just to call him down. i would not agree with betting the flop though as stated above. as far as i can see you played this as good as possible.

5starpool · 10-10-2006 2:29pm

masterclass wrote:

I can guarantee you, 95% of pro's would bet the flop here, GUARANTEE.

Are you a pro masterclass? Do you play in any of the clubs in Dublin on a regular basis?

or are you ROONEY_DIVES???

ianmc38 · 10-10-2006 2:33pm

5starpool wrote:

Are you a pro masterclass? Do you play in any of the clubs in Dublin on a regular basis?

or are you ROONEY_DIVES???

Lol. I didnt want to say anything.

LuckyLloyd · 10-10-2006 2:33pm

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masterclass · 10-10-2006 2:35pm

5starpool wrote:

Are you a pro masterclass? Do you play in any of the clubs in Dublin on a regular basis?

or are you ROONEY_DIVES???

Yes, I am a pro & I play in London.

spectre · 10-10-2006 2:37pm

standard.

I'd say AQ/KQ are unlikely. There are 6 AK hands and 9 sets. I'd be surprised if he had anything else. Hence, you're most likely behind but the odds are attractive.

Betting/Raising post flop is suicide.

bubbleking · 10-10-2006 2:39pm

masterclass wrote:

Yes, I am a pro & I play in London.

lads...........im going to london :cool:

masterclass · 10-10-2006 2:50pm

bubbleking wrote:

lads...........im going to london :cool:

Bubbleking, FYI, I've been a pro in London for 8 months now, I have 135k Sterling sitting in my a/c with another 35k in cash. All of this is from winning tournaments and playing cash games 4 nights a week. So you can question my abilities as much as you want should it make you feel better

LuckyLloyd · 10-10-2006 2:54pm

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masterclass · 10-10-2006 3:04pm

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Listen mate, fair play on your success - those figures are impressive and you must be a good player.

As such, I would be interested to read your opinions on certain hands. However, I can't learn anything from comments like "well thats not what the pro's do". I can maybe learn something from an explanation of why it is correct to raise on the flop in the hand discussed however. Can you see the difference?

I hope that makes sense.

It does makes sense. Villan knows you're strong, very strong. By checking you're either slow playing (to be highly unlikely), or you're scared and any mid-high bet is going to make you fold. You bet the pot or slightly over, he's not calling with AK or AQ, he may even have a pair of 8's in his hand (which wouldn't be a fantastic call in online poker, but cash game would be different). If he calls or raises, you should be pretty scared of what he's holding.
I hope that makes sense. I would have also personally re-raised 80 in this case. From a professionals point of view IMO I think it was the incorrect play. Sometimes you have to lose a little to learn. I've often given away a few hundred in pots knowing I was beat just to see what the other players exactly have. Granted, you may think that's mad but if you've got a good bank roll you can get that money back very very quickly if you know the types of hands that a particular opponent is playing with.

At the end of this thread, yes...his AA is probably beaten (otherwise there'd be no thread I'd imagine) , but I still stick by checking is incorrect.

bubbleking · 10-10-2006 3:05pm

masterclass wrote:

Bubbleking, FYI, I've been a pro in London for 8 months now, I have 135k Sterling sitting in my a/c with another 35k in cash. All of this is from winning tournaments and playing cash games 4 nights a week. So you can question my abilities as much as you want should it make you feel better

yeah alright fair play sorry for the bit of aggro id actually like to hear this from a pros point of view.

if you bet the flop KK QQ and AK are all likely to call/raise followed by betting out at the turn or check/raise the turn. so what extra information have you gained by betting the flop?

if the villain has KK/QQ you are building the pot for him if he has AK-the only hand you beat you are making it easier for him to fold. unless you can convince me otherwise this is why i dont like raising the flop.

bubbleking · 10-10-2006 3:07pm

oh and im assuming all he has in ths case is either KK QQ or AK due to the fact that hes playing so tight i dont think he has 88.

5starpool · 10-10-2006 3:09pm

masterclass wrote:

Yes, I am a pro & I play in London.

Well welcome to the forum. I hope you don't let the grumpy folks of here irritate you, but we do appreciate clear concise thinking.

PErsonally I know I have a lot to learn and hope you can be one of the contributors I can glean from, but posting as Llyod says 'with an imperial wave of the hand' is not going to help me learn.

Personally I would have led the flop too and check called the rest of the way, but I am a mostly tournament player, and know that this may not be the best line. If you can outline the way you think is best and why that would be super.

cardshark202 · 10-10-2006 3:10pm

masterclass wrote:

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah BURN YOUR MONEY blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

At the end of this thread, yes...his AA is probably beaten (otherwise there'd be no thread I'd imagine) , but I still stick by checking is incorrect.

Masterclass busto in 2 months?

Sorry masterclass couldn't help it.

masterclass · 10-10-2006 3:11pm

bubbleking wrote:

yeah alright fair play sorry for the bit of aggro id actually like to hear this from a pros point of view.

if you bet the flop KK QQ and AK are all likely to call/raise followed by betting out at the turn or check/raise the turn. so what extra information have you gained by betting the flop?

if the villain has KK/QQ you are building the pot for him if he has AK-the only hand you beat you are making it easier for him to fold. unless you can convince me otherwise this is why i dont like raising the flop.

No Problem, my point of betting the flop is not to necessarily know what hand hes got but to let him know that I'm in a strong strong position and am not afraid of putting money out there. This is the most crucial part of the hand and checking may in turn leave him to bet with 10 10 or JJ perhaps and making you fold, but as said...perhaps he did have a set of Q's and has you beat.

masterclass · 10-10-2006 3:14pm

cardshark202 wrote:

Masterclass busto in 2 months?

Cardshark, Thanks for the valuable input. But you are correct, I may go bust in two months.

5starpool · 10-10-2006 3:14pm

masterclass wrote:

It does makes sense. Villan knows you're strong, very strong. By checking you're either slow playing (to be highly unlikely), or you're scared and any mid-high bet is going to make you fold. You bet the pot or slightly over, he's not calling with AK or AQ, he may even have a pair of 8's in his hand (which wouldn't be a fantastic call in online poker, but cash game would be different). If he calls or raises, you should be pretty scared of what he's holding.
I hope that makes sense. I would have also personally re-raised 80 in this case. From a professionals point of view IMO I think it was the incorrect play. Sometimes you have to lose a little to learn. I've often given away a few hundred in pots knowing I was beat just to see what the other players exactly have. Granted, you may think that's mad but if you've got a good bank roll you can get that money back very very quickly if you know the types of hands that a particular opponent is playing with.

At the end of this thread, yes...his AA is probably beaten (otherwise there'd be no thread I'd imagine) , but I still stick by checking is incorrect.

Why would you want AK/AQ/88 to fold? As you say, if you get called/raised the only hand you have beat is AK. If you check you get all the above hands to bet to you sometimes. If you call here he knows you generally don't have AIR, so with AQ/88 or similiar he is going to want to slow down.

In this hand he had either AK or has you beaten. It is unlikely he has any holding other than AK that we beat.

ianmc38 · 10-10-2006 3:15pm

masterclass wrote:

It does makes sense. Villan knows you're strong, very strong. By checking you're either slow playing (to be highly unlikely), or you're scared and any mid-high bet is going to make you fold. You bet the pot or slightly over, he's not calling with AK or AQ, he may even have a pair of 8's in his hand (which wouldn't be a fantastic call in online poker, but cash game would be different). If he calls or raises, you should be pretty scared of what he's holding.
I hope that makes sense. I would have also personally re-raised 80 in this case. From a professionals point of view IMO I think it was the incorrect play. Sometimes you have to lose a little to learn. I've often given away a few hundred in pots knowing I was beat just to see what the other players exactly have. Granted, you may think that's mad but if you've got a good bank roll you can get that money back very very quickly if you know the types of hands that a particular opponent is playing with.

At the end of this thread, yes...his AA is probably beaten (otherwise there'd be no thread I'd imagine) , but I still stick by checking is incorrect.

Cheers for the advice. I think I'll call a few all-ins later so I can put my opponents on an exact hand. It's bound to earn me huge $$$ in subsequent hands. Thanks for the tip. It's about time this forum got a few in the know pros posting crucial advice like this. Some invaluable strategy pointers in there.

accensi0n · 10-10-2006 3:16pm

masterclass wrote:

No Problem, my point of betting the flop is not to necessarily know what hand hes got but to let him know that I'm in a strong strong position and am not afraid of putting money out there. This is the most crucial part of the hand and checking may in turn leave him to bet with 10 10 or JJ perhaps and making you fold, but as said...perhaps he did have a set of Q's and has you beat.

Your reason for betting is so "he knows your in a strong position". So therefore he'll fold everything except hands that beat you!

Another reason you have for betting is so you get committed to the hand and also to make 10 10/ JJ fold and not bet on the turn!

That is ridiculous and your gonna lose money with that thinking.

bubbleking · 10-10-2006 3:18pm

masterclass wrote:

No Problem, my point of betting the flop is not to necessarily know what hand hes got but to let him know that I'm in a strong strong position and am not afraid of putting money out there. This is the most crucial part of the hand and checking may in turn leave him to bet with 10 10 or JJ perhaps and making you fold, but as said...perhaps he did have a set of Q's and has you beat.

but thats the thing he cant make us fold he bet the turn and river and was (correctly) called down in my opinon. the reason i like the way luckyloyd played the hand is that hes winning the maximum and losing the minimum which at the end of the day is what its all about.

masterclass · 10-10-2006 3:20pm

ianmc38 wrote:

Cheers for the advice. I think I'll call a few all-ins later so I can put my opponents on an exact hand. It's bound to earn me huge $$$ in subsequent hands. Thanks for the tip. It's about time this forum got a few in the know pros posting crucial advice like this. Some invaluable strategy pointers in there.

ok, obviously any criticsm or advice is pretty unwelcome in here. I think you've taken my comment in the wrong way. I never said I've put a few all ins. But on certain hands, after re-reraising, and checking to the turn with a bet on the river, yes..I have put in a few hundred, 99% that I was beat. And you know what, it's more than easily paid back in the long run.

Ste05 · 10-10-2006 3:22pm

masterclass wrote:

I can guarantee you, 95% of pro's would bet the flop here, GUARANTEE.

I seriously doubt this. I'd love to have a poll of the other Pro's on this site, but in a deep stack cash game betting this flop everytime is not a great line.

Everything you beat, which isn't much, folds and everything that beats you re-raises you. The only way to make any more money out of this hand is to call bluffs or thin value bets.

We've had this discussion on here so many times.
Any one link the last thread we had about this... Was it the one with RD?? I'll have a look to see if I can find it, I seem to remember it going to c. 7 pages

ianmc38 · 10-10-2006 3:24pm

masterclass wrote:

ok, obviously any criticsm or advice is pretty unwelcome in here. I think you've taken my comment in the wrong way. I never said I've put a few all ins. But on certain hands, after re-reraising, and checking to the turn with a bet on the river, yes..I have put in a few hundred, 99% that I was beat. And you know what, it's more than easily paid back in the long run.

I fully understood your reasoning. I think it's some brilliant advice. Take a short term -EV move to improve your long term +EV expectation. I'm just glad you pointed it out as it's something I'd never really thought about before now.

masterclass · 10-10-2006 3:28pm

ianmc38 wrote:

I fully understood your reasoning. I think it's some brilliant advice. Take a short term -EV move to improve your long term +EV expectation. I'm just glad you pointed it out as it's something I'd never really thought about before now.

well, can we end this discussion with how the hand went, I've got a game in an hour.

LuckyLloyd · 10-10-2006 3:28pm

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bubbleking · 10-10-2006 3:30pm

Ste05 wrote:

I seriously doubt this. I'd love to have a poll of the other Pro's on this site, but in a deep stack cash game betting this flop everytime is not a great line.

Everything you beat, which isn't much, folds and everything that beats you re-raises you. The only way to make any more money out of this hand is to call bluffs or thin value bets.

We've had this discussion on here so many times.
Any one link the last thread we had about this... Was it the one with RD?? I'll have a look to see if I can find it, I seem to remember it going to c. 7 pages

yeah thats true cant remember if i tried to argue with hj or fuzz bout raising the flop in the end i lost the arguement because i had no response to whoever in short said if you raise the flop:

1 all hands you beat fold
2 all hands that beat you call

ianmc38 · 10-10-2006 3:35pm

LuckyLloyd wrote:

A couple of comments on this line:

1) When we lead the flop, can we call a check - raise all - in?? We might say: "thats all I needed to know" and fold, but wouldn't this leave us vulnerable to an alert Villian in future hands? If Villian does push over the top of us he will generally have us beat but on the occassions that he is making a play at the pot without the goods we may not find a call.

2) If Villian doesn't have us beat wth AK // JJ // 1010 we have just chased him out of the hand as we will have to assume that his check was an indication of non - commitment to the hand and we have made a stiff bet at the flop. How could he pay us off?

3) Given the fact that we are uncertain that we are ahead, doesn't a lead just create a situation where we get outplayed off the better hand or make a crying call to a stronger hand?

4) From a standpoint of understanding what Villian is playing, won't check, calling to a showdown in this situation give us valuable information? We will know more about their raising range pre - flop; Whether they will check a set to us on the flop; Whether they will look to take the pot away from us on the turn and river with marginal holdings if we show weakness off the flop. Thats useful no?

Good stuff Lloyd.

Anyhoo, I called and he showed QQ.

masterclass · 10-10-2006 3:35pm

well, looks like I'm not going to get to see how the hand panned out, as stated, I still stand by my comments.
Apologies If I offended anyone.

fuzzbox · 10-10-2006 3:40pm

I would bet the flop against this type of dude - he is not as likely to try to bluff if you check.

As played - I would strongly consider a river fold - but probably wouldnt have the stomach for it.

masterclass · 10-10-2006 3:41pm

ianmc38 wrote:

Good stuff Lloyd.

Anyhoo, I called and he showed QQ.

Thanks Ian,

Ok, My point here is .... You still that 100 quid right ? be it on the flop or on the river...you still lost it.
I think betting the flop would have told you what he was sitting on, be it a call or a raise..you knew you were beat. So lets say you're 100 went in after the flop..you obviously would have folded a bet on the river right....
So where does this leave..you saw his cards....but even if you didn't you still would have known that he was sitting on KK or QQ. My point is that betting the river would have more than likely told you what he was sitting on, and at the end of the day you called the river which is a worst play IMO than betting the flop.

masterclass · 10-10-2006 3:42pm

ianmc38 wrote:

Good stuff Lloyd.

Anyhoo, I called and he showed QQ.

Thanks Ian,

Ok, My point here is .... You still lost that 100 quid right ? be it on the flop or on the river...you still lost it.
I think betting the flop would have told you what he was sitting on, be it a call or a raise..you knew you were beat. So lets say you're 100 went in after the flop..you obviously would have folded a bet on the river right....
So where does this leave you..you saw his cards....but even if you didn't you still would have known that he was sitting on KK or QQ. My point is that betting the river would have more than likely told you what he was sitting on, and at the end of the day you called the river which is a worst play IMO than betting the flop.

El Stuntman · 10-10-2006 3:42pm

I have a different take:
fold pre-flop and save yourself $200, wait instead for KJ soooooted to make your moves...oh, and you will always hit a set with 55 or 66 (if not quads)

(the RNG in Tribeca has developed a nasty persona of its own over the last few days!!)

WH BONNEY · 10-10-2006 3:43pm

And there I was wondering why I am reluctant to post on boards.
You guys are pathetic. A guy comes on makes a reply against one of your mates posts & u all collectively start knocking him.

You guys know it all.

Why bother having a forum just have the auld mutual admiration society.

Wish I was as good as you guys.

Ste05 · 10-10-2006 3:44pm

masterclass wrote:

well, can we end this discussion with how the hand went, I've got a game in an hour.

Welcome to the boards.ie Poker forum masterclass, you really are having a baptism of fire here.:p

I hope it doesn't put you off, but in general we don't respond well to people who blandly say well I've won XXX or I've done X, Y or Z. Especially when the thinking is flawed, as has been proved here many many times in the past. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find any of the threads about this particular type of situation. but I feel that I need to point out one more thing here.

How will the results of this particular hand make any difference to what the correct line is or not. If the Villain has AK, AQ, JJ, 1010 will they call a bet??
Will they bet on what is a very scary board hoping to take down the pot, possibly, possibly not, but there's no way they're calling much more here.

What will QQ or KK do?

In a short stacked tournament hand a raise might be correct, but in a deep cash game a bet here is seriously -EV.

ianmc38 · 10-10-2006 3:44pm

El Stuntman wrote:

I have a different take:
fold pre-flop and save yourself $200, wait instead for KJ soooooted to make your moves...oh, and you will always hit a set with 55 or 66 (if not quads)

(the RNG in Tribeca has developed a nasty persona of its own over the last few days!!)

If it was Tribeca i'd instafold preflop.

ArmaniJeanss · 10-10-2006 3:47pm

WH BONNEY wrote:

And there I was wondering why I am reluctant to post on boards.
You guys are a pathetic. A guy comes on makes a reply against one of your mates posts & u all collectively start knocking him.

You guys know it all.

Why bother having a forum just have the auld mutual admiration society.

Wish I was as good as you guys.

I much prefer getting verbally assaulted on this forum when I am totally wrong about a situation, rather than financially assaulted if my mistakes are not pointed out to me.
You have to be thick-skinned imo.