Do buildings really take on energy?

ladybirdirl

Right now this might be stupid but it's been going round in my head for a little while so I'm asking the great authorities here (am actually not being sarcastic for a change)

Buildings over time get used for a variety of purposes. Think of the hospital on Jervis St which is now a shopping centre etc etc.

My question is do the building really take on the 'energy' of the events that occurred there or do we as individuals with certain beliefs project these things into the building because of subconcious thought or Stevenmu's BEEF stuff or what we would like to believe or are afraid of.

where this question is coming from is where I went to college. UCC bought what was an old psychiatric hospital and they use it all year round for day classes,night classes etc. So a group of people interested in the paranormal did an investigation overnight and as far as I know found nothing. Now given that it was a psychiatric hospital I would have expected them to find lots so this led me to question whether it's the mind of the subject as opposed to the building.

Comments anyone

Ladybird

Aisling&M

I refer to what I think you are talking about as psychic chewing gum and I do believe it has similar characteristics to actual chewing gum.

When you chew some minty blue/green extra and the flavour has gone you throw it out, or miss the bin and it gets squished into the ground. It remains there until someone else picks it up on their shoe and walks around the place sticking to all manner of debris!

Same too can be said for psychic/psychological energy. When you exert a piece of energy from a situation of extreme emotion, anger/joy/sadness etc this excess is released from your energy into the surroundings that you are currently occupying. Therefore, when you leave the situation/area you leave behind the energy created and expelled subconsciously. This can then be picked up/tapped into by another person and experience a re-run of the situation you first experienced.

Thus, I believe the energy is left in the building but came from a projected release by a person/entity/experience.

Aisling&M

p.s. I believe that just as those cleaners go around with the steam jets to get the icky gum off the ground so too can the psychic energy be cleaned away out of a building/area.

Stoner

something like P Pearse thinking that the land of Ireland has/holds a collective spirit that can also fade over time???

I guess the stone tape idea that we all know about comes into play regarding the OP, I have heard it said that stone and inparticular lime stone has the ability to hold recordings of events and under certain condidtions will replay them.
I can only guess that if this is true that they can fade over time , like a worn out tape, this could explain why people see relatively recent "ghost events" and not Fred Flintstone coming home from a hunt with Barney and Dino. Some people offer that the visual aspects of these "ghost recordings" fade over time and that different colours/ strength of the visual sightings represent the idea of how "recordings" fade. There are documented cases where sightings of "blue ladies" get lighter in colour with time and start to approach the colour of a "white lady" ghost.
But this could just be my mind trying to fit these things into a working formula, I have nothing to offer on what triggers these sightings, some say the weather/time/position of the earth WRT magnetic fields etc. I can only offer that it could be reasonable to assume that an event is recorded/stored under certain contitions and that that recording can fade over time.

Zombrex

ladybirdirl wrote:

My question is do the building really take on the 'energy' of the events that occurred there

Depends on what you mean by "energy"

If you are looking for actual scientific answers that will be hard since no one has yet defined paranormal energy and as such no one has a clue what to look for. There is no scientific evidence that buildings trap or store paranormal energy, but there wouldn't be since there is no scientific evidence of paranormal energy and as such we wouldn't know how to see what effects it.

On the other hand a lot of people believe that certain places that have experienced some kind of event such as a murder have a much higher than normal amount of ghost sightings or other paranormal events. If one believes this (I personaly don't) it stands to reason that such paranormal energy given off by the event is some how localised at the place of the event, either simply due to proximity or because the paranormal energy is some how trapped or captured by the structure itself.

Stoner

Just to add to the whole limestone issue, took this from a similar post about limestone from a different forum.


"Limestone is an unusual element in regards to EMF. It seems that limestone puts out quite a bit of EMF. This is due to the decay of the element and its half life. Basically, itis due to the dispersal of the elements protons and neutrons and more importantly its electrons as it decays or deteriorates. As you know there is a correlation between high EMF levels and hauntings. It seems that through our research that we have discovered that when there are high EMF fields, be it from power lines, and or naturally occurring elements such as limestone there is an increase of orb, vortex, and spirit activity. We are energy. Life is energy. We are basically made out of water and electricity. When we die our water is evaporated and returned to the earths water cycle. Our energy however goes somewhere else. According to Einsteins theory. If you think of a maganet it will make more sense. When you have an electrical field and a strong maganet an electro maganet persay that energy is drawn towards that maganet. That energy is drawn towards this is not consumed by the maganet but drawn by the polarity of the maganet. So this causes this energy or electrical charge to join the exisiting pool of energy that flows everywhere. So, if you have a house or building that is made out of limestone or a site that has high deposits of limestone in the soil it is possible that much more energy is drawn to this area like a maganet. Also you must realize that the earth also has its own electromagnetic field. The earth tries to balance itself constantly,therefore if there is a greater amount of pull for energy (need for balance in the earths electromagnetic field) in one spot that the residual energy surrounding this area will be pulled/attracted to this area to creat this balance. So this would lead us to believe that spirit energy which could be ones soul or an individuals electrical imprint persay would be drawn to a source area that has a high electrica magnetic field which would be created by the limestone that needs to be balanced. This would explain why a place that is not known to have any specific history or tragic events could harbor such paranormal activity"

I dont really know what to make of it , but at least the are going down the road towards investigating it

Zillah

Stoner wrote:

"Limestone is an unusual element in regards to EMF. It seems that limestone puts out quite a bit of EMF. This is due to the decay of the element and its half life. Basically, itis due to the dispersal of the elements protons and neutrons and more importantly its electrons as it decays or deteriorates. As you know there is a correlation between high EMF levels and hauntings. It seems that through our research that we have discovered that when there are high EMF fields, be it from power lines, and or naturally occurring elements such as limestone there is an increase of orb, vortex, and spirit activity. We are energy. Life is energy. We are basically made out of water and electricity. When we die our water is evaporated and returned to the earths water cycle. Our energy however goes somewhere else. According to Einsteins theory. If you think of a maganet it will make more sense. When you have an electrical field and a strong maganet an electro maganet persay that energy is drawn towards that maganet. That energy is drawn towards this is not consumed by the maganet but drawn by the polarity of the maganet. So this causes this energy or electrical charge to join the exisiting pool of energy that flows everywhere. So, if you have a house or building that is made out of limestone or a site that has high deposits of limestone in the soil it is possible that much more energy is drawn to this area like a maganet. Also you must realize that the earth also has its own electromagnetic field. The earth tries to balance itself constantly,therefore if there is a greater amount of pull for energy (need for balance in the earths electromagnetic field) in one spot that the residual energy surrounding this area will be pulled/attracted to this area to creat this balance. So this would lead us to believe that spirit energy which could be ones soul or an individuals electrical imprint persay would be drawn to a source area that has a high electrica magnetic field which would be created by the limestone that needs to be balanced. This would explain why a place that is not known to have any specific history or tragic events could harbor such paranormal activity"

Well, we appear to be going down a scientific road with this thread so I won't hesitate to say that, in terms of science, the above quotation is absolute nonesense.

Stoner

he he he

Yeah, I've actually mailed these guys and asked to see their results,if they got back I was going to post them here afterwards, I asked them what they considered to be "high" EMF readings, however I would not be surprized if limestone did produce higher readings compared to some types of stone, but I wanted to have that checked against other sedimantary rocks such as sandsotne etc. I would have thought that some metamorphic rock would have higher readings again.
You know yourself if your going to study something it's very importart to check the work of others. So I asked them about their meters and their results, (forgot to mention methods) we'll wait and see.

ladybirdirl

It's a bit of a jump to go from 'limestone gives high EMF readings' to ' your body being drawn to areas of high EMF for balance' all in one fell swoop IMHO, interesting concept though - Stevenmu would probably be interested in this according to his BEEF theory

Good one Stoner

odonnell

zillah and the scientists among us will know better here but heres my tuppence worth in layman speak, im in architecture - not science so ill do my best from what ive read:

As a matter of fact, buildings - depending on the materials used, DO 'record' events in the form of sound and video (for lack of a better description).

Old buildings normally have this characteristic as they are more commonly made from sandstone and if you run an electrical current through sandstone andhook up your gadgets to it, quite often you will hear the sounds playing back from the stone. Now, it has to be under certain conditions that the stone will record and its presumed to be in heightened electrical activity like thunder storms etc. Sandstone is basically the same stuff as your hard drive, your videos, your old casettes.... its silicon. Its the same material and so in a watered down format, will display the same characteristics.

So...im not saying this is responsible for hauntings and the likes, im just aware of this being a fact and that a lot of hauntings have been proven to be just this. Pubs for example tend to harbour a lot of noises, plates smashing, people talking and 'whispering'..... and then you find its the walls! This can also manifest itself in imagery in theory.... if you take a silicon box (the pub)and run current through it....what surface is the image going to be projected onto? thin air...thats where.

So... when you hear someone talking about residual, and not resident orin visitation - what they are really meaning is that the building fabric has recorded something of the past and decent mediums can pick up on that. But i believe what the others are saying is also true about spiritual energy. This is what makes it so difficult to be a convincing psychic - as theres so many ways in which you can be fooled by the feel of a place.

SkepticOne

odonnell wrote:

Sandstone is basically the same stuff as your hard drive, your videos, your old casettes.... its silicon. Its the same material and so in a watered down format, will display the same characteristics.

I'm not sure this is correct. I thought that magnetic tapes worked by magnetising metalic oxides embedded in the tape as it passes through a varying magnetic field. I would not have thought silicon would be particularly useful here as it can't be magetised.

Zillah

odonnell wrote:

Old buildings normally have this characteristic as they are more commonly made from sandstone and if you run an electrical current through sandstone andhook up your gadgets to it, quite often you will hear the sounds playing back from the stone. Now, it has to be under certain conditions that the stone will record and its presumed to be in heightened electrical activity like thunder storms etc. Sandstone is basically the same stuff as your hard drive, your videos, your old casettes.... its silicon. Its the same material and so in a watered down format, will display the same characteristics.

:eek:

What?

Forgive me, but that sounds absolutely preposterous. Videos and casettes work by aligning metallic bits on a non magnetic base in a manner analagous to the incoming signal. Hard drives are very similar but record it in a complex binary code.

Where did you learn this? What is the phenomenon called?

Stoner

SkepticOne wrote:

I'm not sure this is correct. I thought that magnetic tapes worked by magnetising metalic oxides embedded in the tape as it passes through a varying magnetic field. I would not have thought silicon would be particularly useful here as it can't be magetised.

I agree, in fact silicon is used as an insulator in the production of micro processors, the thinking part, not the memory park of computers. However regardless of some of the technical details, it is possible for Ferromagnetic materials like iron to be contained in some stone (very common)
As we know some material/metal will retain a magnetic charge while others will respond to one but loose it once removed from the field.
So some stones can contain material that can under certain circumstances retain the effects of it being subjected to the effects of magnetism, however I would consider this effect to be a lining up of the domains in the same way so that all their "force" is combined to produce a magnetic filed in the same direction and not the constant cancelling out that happens in other cases.

I understand that I could be on the wrong track here but anyway, magnetic tapes are long and have different magnetic fields imprinted on the ferric oxide powder SkepticOne touched on. This material is ferromagnetic, so if exposed it to a magnetic field it is permanently magnetised. So the tape holds the differing magnetic fields / imprinted magnetic representation of the music etc.
Ferric oxide is very very similar to rust (iron oxide) in that it’s only elements are iron and oxygen these are available in some stones. (there are many other types of mats used for this but I want to keep this simple)
Up to here I can see how something could be imprinted on something that had these elements (iron and oxygen or just iron really). Now here is my issue with the whole thing.
The magnetic tape is placed in a player where a coil picks to the differing magnetic fields, inducement occurs, voltages in the presence of a current carrying conductor, current flows at different frequencies (determined by different magnetic fields that induced the voltages in the first place), these frequencies are popped up to a speaker where the differing signals produce different vibration levels on the electro coil and the permo magnet, this device is attached to a diaphragm where the energy is transuded into sound energy and we can hear it.
This is rough and quick but it’s more or less correct, pick holes in if you must but we haven’t got all day and how these things work is basic stuff. So we arrive at my issue with buildings recording stuff/ stone tape.
Where is the equivalent of the cassette player, or video player? If we can accept that something could be recorded and this opens up a lot of recording capacity questions, anyway if we for the sake of this argument we accept this. We can equate the naturally occurring ferromagnetic material in stone to the ferric oxide in a tape,

But what plays it back?

odonnell

Stoner wrote:

I agree, in fact silicon is used as an insulator in the production of micro processors, the thinking part, not the memory park of computers. However regardless of some of the technical details, it is possible for Ferromagnetic materials like iron to be contained in some stone (very common)
As we know some material/metal will retain a magnetic charge while others will respond to one but loose it once removed from the field.
So some stones can contain material that can under certain circumstances retain the effects of it being subjected to the effects of magnetism, however I would consider this effect to be a lining up of the domains in the same way so that all their "force" is combined to produce a magnetic filed in the same direction and not the constant cancelling out that happens in other cases.

I understand that I could be on the wrong track here but anyway, magnetic tapes are long and have different magnetic fields imprinted on the ferric oxide powder SkepticOne touched on. This material is ferromagnetic, so if exposed it to a magnetic field it is permanently magnetised. So the tape holds the differing magnetic fields / imprinted magnetic representation of the music etc.
Ferric oxide is very very similar to rust (iron oxide) in that it’s only elements are iron and oxygen these are available in some stones. (there are many other types of mats used for this but I want to keep this simple)
Up to here I can see how something could be imprinted on something that had these elements (iron and oxygen or just iron really). Now here is my issue with the whole thing.
The magnetic tape is placed in a player where a coil picks to the differing magnetic fields, inducement occurs, voltages in the presence of a current carrying conductor, current flows at different frequencies (determined by different magnetic fields that induced the voltages in the first place), these frequencies are popped up to a speaker where the differing signals produce different vibration levels on the electro coil and the permo magnet, this device is attached to a diaphragm where the energy is transuded into sound energy and we can hear it.
This is rough and quick but it’s more or less correct, pick holes in if you must but we haven’t got all day and how these things work is basic stuff. So we arrive at my issue with buildings recording stuff/ stone tape.
Where is the equivalent of the cassette player, or video player? If we can accept that something could be recorded and this opens up a lot of recording capacity questions, anyway if we for the sake of this argument we accept this. We can equate the naturally occurring ferromagnetic material in stone to the ferric oxide in a tape,

But what plays it back?

oh..... i see.... well alright.

I suppose in response i ought to write a thesis based on the metallic content of limestone, sandstone and other related building materials and the conductive properties of silicon. My mistake - i really did miss the metal oxide part (gives the tape its red tinge i know), however I do believe certain elements have properties which paired with electrical charge can quite readily 'store' data, and replay.

Silicon is used in all those data storage devices by the way, cheers stoner but would i be correct in saying the silicon aspect serves to conduct the charge - the storage is anyones guess though. I was merely aware of the fact that sandstone buildings are very prone to harbouring noise in their walls. A bit of reading, a bit of discovery channel, a few christmas lectures and the friendly University science lecturer later - and im still none the wiser as to WHY these noises are stored....but i came away with the belief it was a lot to do with the high silicon content as opposed to the metal-oxide. Maybe both i dunno... like i say im in architecture not physics, so you guys will have to appreciate this fact and cut me some slack

odonnell

Zillah wrote:

:eek:

What?

Forgive me, but that sounds absolutely preposterous. Videos and casettes work by aligning metallic bits on a non magnetic base in a manner analagous to the incoming signal. Hard drives are very similar but record it in a complex binary code.

Where did you learn this? What is the phenomenon called?

lol no dude i wont forgive you.... that type of response whilst very impressive to someone looking to be impressed, is very easily taken in the offensive context.

Now forgive ME mate but im no imbiscile. We all know you like your science (i dont know what you do for a living....) so please show some humility when someone comes along just looking for a chat, and happened to learn something in his youth that hes never been able to explain. I thought that was clear when i admitted to NOT KNOWING BETTER. Hence I asked you to maybe pitch in.

Had I known you'd nip in using terms like preposterous and making me look like a complete fool..... I would really not have gone to the trouble. General when someone knows very little about a topic in which i specialise - I was always brought up to show some respect to that persons intelligence. Generally - the time a person uses the word "preposterous" in a meeting room with me - I leave the meeting. So, pardon my ignorance.

Zillah

If you feel foolish after portraying something grossly unscientific as fact then thats your problem. I said it "sounded preposterous", which it did, I didn't say it was preposterous, of which I wasn't sure, hence why I asked if you could explain further.

Personally when someone points out where I went wrong I think "Oh, right, thank you." I have a hard time with delicate sensibilities.

I'm out.

Stoner

In fairness these are no new theories, most of this thread could be copied in the Stone tape thread or read from countless books. I don't know how or if these recordings are played back, but I'd like to know and this is the place that I ask such questions.
There are thousands of sightings of these things, whatever plays them back, triggers them in our mind etc I dont know but I'm willing to look into different areas, IMO odonnell theories are indeed worth considering as I explained above I can see how it may be possible for some stuff to be recorded by some of the elements in some stones.
So essentially there is nothing new here so it would be a pity if all it generated was a bit of animosity between two important contributors to these forums and no new answers or even focus on the core issues to be developed.
It's important that even if a theory has some fundamental flaws that it in it's entirity should be considered if it closes a loop. If certain parts of the loop are wrong it does not mean that the whole theory is wrong and should be thrown out (not here anyway) and through discussing these things we can point that out and maybe offer an alternative, this alternative could possibly fit into that loop.
There is no doubt in my mind that science needs input from outside its diciplines to solve/understand the paranormal and the same can be said the other way around.

So get back in !!!! don't leave it on a bad note.

BTW I still reserve my right to say "b---ocks"

odonnell

Zillah wrote:

If you feel foolish after portraying something grossly unscientific as fact then thats your problem. I said it "sounded preposterous", which it did, I didn't say it was preposterous, of which I wasn't sure, hence why I asked if you could explain further.

Personally when someone points out where I went wrong I think "Oh, right, thank you." I have a hard time with delicate sensibilities.

I'm out.

arrogance is a flaw mate... intelligence certainly isnt exclusive.

odonnell

Stoner wrote:

In fairness these are no new theories, most of this thread could be copied in the Stone tape thread or read from countless books. I don't know how or if these recordings are played back, but I'd like to know and this is the place that I ask such questions.
There are thousands of sightings of these things, whatever plays them back, triggers them in our mind etc I dont know but I'm willing to look into different areas, IMO odonnell theories are indeed worth considering as I explained above I can see how it may be possible for some stuff to be recorded by some of the elements in some stones.
So essentially there is nothing new here so it would be a pity if all it generated was a bit of animosity between two important contributors to these forums and no new answers or even focus on the core issues to be developed.
It's important that even if a theory has some fundamental flaws that it in it's entirity should be considered if it closes a loop. If certain parts of the loop are wrong it does not mean that the whole theory is wrong and should be thrown out (not here anyway) and through discussing these things we can point that out and maybe offer an alternative, this alternative could possible fit into that loop.
There is no doubt in my mind that science needs input from outside its diciplines to solve/understand the paranormal and the same can be said the other way around.

So get back in !!!! don't leave it on a bad note.

BTW I still reserve my right to say "b---ocks"

ah thanks stoner and all that but to be honest mate - guys like this twat are the reason i dont post on ANY forums. No allowance for the layman entering into their holy shrine of wisdom. Its hard to be grateful for someone teaching you something new when its shrouded in post-teen arrogance.

So nah... ill stick with real life where you and 6th know me better bud.

Cheers

Zillah

odonnell wrote:

guys like this twat are the reason i dont post on ANY forums. No allowance for the layman entering into their holy shrine of wisdom.

Dude, I'm a media student, but I check my facts. Stop playing the drama queen and get over it, ackowledge the flaws in your idea and work on it, no point throwing a fit.

Stoner wrote:

There are thousands of sightings of these things, whatever plays them back, triggers them in our mind etc I dont know but I'm willing to look into different areas, IMO odonnell theories are indeed worth considering as I explained above I can see how it may be possible for some stuff to be recorded by some of the elements in some stones.

The problem I have with most interpretations of the stone tape theory is that they try to argue it using magnetic fields and other established phenomena. But if event data could be recorded into various stones by way of light, sound or EMF there is no way the scientific community wouldn't have discovered it. The only stuff science does not completely understand is either insanely far away (like black holes) or insanely small (like sub atmoic particles and elementary theories like string theory etc) [or the paranormal, if it exists ].

I just can't accept that something so elementary and so easy to test could have slipped under the radar like that.

And that doesn't even account for the fact that there is no rational reason why human orientated events would be encoded, stored, decoded and projected in such a manner.

When it comes down to it I'm more likely to consider the magic/soul/psychic idea than some nonsense application of simple, well understood principles.

odonnell

Zillah wrote:

Dude, I'm a media student, but I check my facts. Stop playing the drama queen and get over it, ackowledge the flaws in your idea and work on it, no point throwing a fit.

dude - i did acknowledge it, you mustnt have read properly - however, the fit isnt related to being proven wrong - im no student. The fit was related to blatant arrogance pal. Anyone can check google, my bookshelf has a million science books, and anyone can speculate. What i was doing was explaining how it actually is a fact that buildings can somehow retain information - my only problem here is i personally cannot prove it, i dont own a lab, im not a physicist yet ive read enough on it to believe the people who CAN prove it, arent telling porkies. I dont know the term for it as i read it in my own student years when i too was pretty obnoxious. So, pardon me mate.

Catch yaes later IRL - the rangers game is on telly.

SkepticOne

odonnell wrote:

What i was doing was explaining how it actually is a fact that buildings can somehow retain information - my only problem here is i personally cannot prove it, i dont own a lab, im not a physicist yet ive read enough on it to believe the people who CAN prove it, arent telling porkies. I dont know the term for it as i read it in my own student years when i too was pretty obnoxious. So, pardon me mate.

Would it be possible for you to provide more information about buildings retaining sound and video information? Who are the people who have proved it? I have never heard of this sort of thing from any reputable scientific source tbh.

Zillah

odonnell wrote:

Anyone can check google, my bookshelf has a million science books

Then you've no excuse really....

What i was doing was explaining how it actually is a fact that buildings can somehow retain information

Thats not a fact. Such a thing is not widely known by science. If you want it to be accepted as fact then please reference one of your million science books for it. Your claim is made further suspect by your assertion that it functions by the same mechanism as hard drives, CDs and tapes due to their silicon composition, which is patently wrong.

I dont know the term for it as i read it in my own student years when i too was pretty obnoxious.

Rofl. How ironic. Considering this is all about you throwing a hissy fit at looking foolish. Really, when you break it down the only thing (to do with me) that you're upset about is the use of the word preposterous. Thats the only thing I've said that might be taken offensively. You however have called me a twat, arrogant and obnoxious. Now, I'm not going to report your personal attacks, because personally I don't really care what some guy on the internet thinks of me, but I thought you might appreciate the irony.

Oh, and a very dark little part of me giggles at the fact that you mispelled "imbecile" Isn't that so funny?

odonnell

pm on the way zillah, i cannot respond to this and help justify the pettiness.

For this thread: unsubstantiated claims of fact by myself were indeed imBESCILIC and down ot personally having two of the roughest weeks known to man, i can only apologise for my being rash and beg the mercy and forgiveness of the paranormal boardsies as you all know yours is the only acceptance that matters!!! I also ask that my random typos and odd language be excused ad not disected in front of the whole world as i have come to realise that decent spelling and sentence structure matter above all things and that we need bow to all geeks of wordsiness the world over. Please Forgive Me!

Now....down to the matter at hand. Sorry i cant find anything to back up what i learned in uni, i have been searching all over for the documentaries and cannot find them, nor do i recall any book titles,so respectfully, i must withdraw! But i still believe in the phenomena...

oooh to live in a world where how you live is a measure of your intelligence - and not the imperfect prose in which you respond to forum posts.

Nevyn

I would say yes they do and so they develope certain athospheres.
Based totaly on my experiences in certain places, some times it is where they house is and what it is made of.

Ziycon

A lot of scientists now believe that materials/matter can hold memories of past events that where very strong emotionally in any direction but mainly of a tragic nature like an unexpected death or murder.

Zillah

Ziycon wrote:

A lot of scientists now believe that materials/matter can hold memories of past events that where very strong emotionally in any direction but mainly of a tragic nature like an unexpected death or murder.

Uh, which scientists?

And unless they can back it up scientifically then their opinion is worth no more than any other person.

Ziycon

I'll have to find out the name of the documentary, it was on a good while ago, i'll try dig up the details, but like a lot of things in science its theoretical at the moment!

stevenmu

I'm a bit late in getting to this thread, apologies for that, I'll be keeping a much closer eye on things in future.

People, please try to remember that we're all working towards the same goal here. A couple of points, while we have a charter aimed at allowing people to present their information/thoughts/opinions/beliefs/experiences etc freely without undue criticism, people should try to differentiate between them and hard facts. Something presented as a hard fact without any supporting evidence will always have to be open to question/criticism. Also, any questioning/criticism should be done in a polite and respectfull way, the use of strong words like "preposterous" can easily offend and should be done with care. Finally, name calling or abuse of any kind will not be tolerated for any reason. There is the 'report post' button beside every post which can be used to report any post users feel is inappropriate.

Nevyn

/me sets up a tally card to see how many of Zillah's post she can legit report in a week

Zillah

You're on! I like this game

Stoner

Zillah wrote:

Uh, which scientists?

And unless they can back it up scientifically then their opinion is worth no more than any other person.

Sorry Zillah, I don’t agree, a scientist can have a theory or a hunch and it can be based on some proven and to be proven ideas, it can still be worth discussing and does not need to be shot down because the complete loop is not in place.
Also I would rather listen to the opinion of a roofer as to why my roof is leaking then say for example the opinion of a media student even though the roofer may not know the cause of the problem he has qualifications in the relevant discipline.
My point being that everyone’s opinion on something is not equal.:)


If we all had to back up everything we said then general conversation would be hampered by unreasonable parameters. If I asked you to prove that iron oxide in some stones can't store some sort of recording of a magnetic field??? could you? would you be able to? or would you base your theory on the fact that if it was possible then it would be proven already? I don't need to tell you how limited that line of thinking is as you already know.

Anyway keeping it on track, I think that is may be possible for a magnetic imprint to be stored by a building, knocking down this building would alter that imprint greatly IMO. How this imprint results in audio/visual events or what it triggers in peoples mind is something totally different.

By this I mean, take for example a PC application like tight VNC, very quickly this application will allow you to control a very powerful computer from a remote location. You can log on from home and with very little resources control a huge server somewhere else. You can use the huge computing capability of this remote pc but only send it very basic commands. All the generation of numbers, graphics etc is all done in the powerful PC , but controlled/triggered by very basic commands, i.e all the info is in the powerful PC already and all you have to do is trigger it.

We know for example that or brains feel the effect of some magnetic fields, one theory is that these fields can trigger something that is in our heads already, this does not fit into all reported cases, but its just a theory I read before, I have the book at home if anyone wants a complete reference:)

Zombrex

Stoner wrote:

Sorry Zillah, I don’t agree, a scientist can have a theory or a hunch and it can be based on some proven and to be proven ideas, it can still be worth discussing and does not need to be shot down because the complete loop is not in place.

Ziycon opinion is as valid as anyone elses opinion, but his statement that "a lot of scientists now believe..." is very misleading.

If a scientist believes that the "emotional energy" of a tragic event such as a murder can be transfered to the surroundings beyond the normal energy of the event such as heat and keinetic energy, he/she does so not as a scientist but simply as a person, as there is absolutely no scientific evidence that this happens. Stating that "a lot of scientists believe..." implies that some idea has a general scientific theory behind it that is supported by a group of qualified scientists. This is not the case for what Ziycon is talking about.

There isn't any scientific theory to define what type of energy emotions are beyond already established electrochemical reactions in the human brain, so how a scientist could say it can be measured scientifically is beyond me, and I doubt many have. Neither is there any scientific evidence that an event such as a murder is actually all the special in the grand scheme of things. To humans a murder is a significant event because of the morality of humans, but there is no scientific evidence that it is special in any kind of cosmic importantence that causes any more of a energy reaction than say a hammer falling on the ground.

Ziycon is perfectly entitled to his opinions on the matter, and his opinion is as valid as anyone elses on this forum. But just as the sceptics here should not say something is definately not happening just because science has not shown it happens (its in the charter), equally the believers here should not miss-represent the current scientific position on a matter as being supporting of the paranormal claim when it clearly isn't.

Stoner wrote:

If we all had to back up everything we said then general conversation would be hampered by unreasonable parameters.

You only have to back things up if you assert that something is a fact. If it is just your experience or opinion that is fine, everyone has a story to tell

Stoner wrote:

If I asked you to prove that iron oxide in some stones can't store some sort of recording of a magnetic field???

For Zillah to attempt that you would first have to define what you mean by "some sort of recording of a magnetic field"

As I said in my original post no one has defined what time of energy is given off by an event such as a murder beyond the obvious natural energy such as heat and kientic energy.

It is therefore rather pointless to speculate if science can or cannot answer the question to whether a building can store this energy, or how it would do so, since the energy isn't defined in the first place.

As such there seems little point bringing science into this discussion, to either support or contradict any of the paranormal theories, since no one has defined how the paranormal event is actually supposed to take place.

All that really is relivent to this discussion is the experiences and opinions of the posters here.

Stoner wrote:

Anyway keeping it on track, I think that is may be possible for a magnetic imprint to be stored by a building

It is possible for a magnetic imprint to be stored in a building. All buildings have a weak magnetic field, simply by the way they are constructed.

The question is an event such as an event such as a murder produces any form of increase in EMF energy, or if this increase is enough to alter the original magnetic field of the building. Science would say no, it doesn't. But as I said above science is rather irrelivent to the discussion at this point because science is looking at a specific form of energy and if the energy is a different unknown form of energy we are not aware of then science is looking the wrong place.

So if science is to tackle this question first the "energy" we are talking about needs to be defined, and then the question of if this energy can effect buildings can be answered in a scientific manner. I doubt anyone is able to define this energy, so again science is rather irrelivent to this discussion.

But since this is the paranormal forum, and not the science forum, I would imagine most people don't care if science can or cannot answer that question. Which is kinda as it should be

Ziycon

Just to get myself straight on this, i never said anything was fact, im just going by the documentary (which im trying to did up) which says that a lot of scientists believed matter can hold memory, the matter acts like a sponge which soaks up events, some being more potient then others. I never said its what i believed! But thats not to say that i dont think it possible!

Zombrex

Ziycon wrote:

Just to get myself straight on this, i never said anything was fact, im just going by the documentary (which im trying to did up) which says that a lot of scientists believed matter can hold memory, the matter acts like a sponge which soaks up events, some being more potient then others. I never said its what i believed! But thats not to say that i dont think it possible!

Well you stated that a lot of scientists believe that matter can hold memory of past events. Without seeing the documentary it is hard to know what exactly you are referring to, but I'm unaware of any wide spread scientific concensus that this is true.

Homoipaths believe that water can take on the characteristics of molecules disolved in it, and that the water molecules will then behave similar to the original molecules. But there is little scientific evidence to support this theory. Could that be what you are referring to?

Ziycon

No, thats not the one im on about, i cant seem to find the documentary, it was on Discovery about 4-5 months ago if anyone saw it! It was a docu. on paranormal activity but went into the memory retention of object like stone walls etc.

Zombrex

Ziycon wrote:

No, thats not the one im on about, i cant seem to find the documentary, it was on Discovery about 4-5 months ago if anyone saw it! It was a docu. on paranormal activity but went into the memory retention of object like stone walls etc.

probably this -

http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/paranormal/paranormal_places/

haven't seen it myself, but if it is on again I will make sure to tune in

Stoner

Wicknight wrote:

For Zillah to attempt that you would first have to define what you mean by "some sort of recording of a magnetic field"

True this is not a science forum, but I'm giving it the enough credit to discuss these topics from a scientific point of view.

For me defining "some sort of a recording of a magnetic field" is very simple.

you place a ferromagnetic item in a strong magnetic field, magnetise it, remove the mag field and see if the material retains a strong characteristic of the mag field under which is was placed, i.e. the same why a magnet is made, this is a recording of the field as the magnetic domains line up in response to the nature of the magnetic field influencing the iron, my point it that iron is ferromagnetic and iron is in some stones.

I was not actually asking Zillah to prove it could either way, I was making a point that not everything needs to be proven here, but ironically I have ended up defining the statement as you asked:)


Just to get this out in the air I'm not discussing "emotional energy" or any such theories. I'm just saying that the magnetic domains in iron will respond to a magnetic field and retain an imprint of the field, this does not need to be confirmed by me or anyone else here as it is a proven fact.

Zillah

Stoner wrote:

Sorry Zillah, I don’t agree, a scientist can have a theory or a hunch and it can be based on some proven and to be proven ideas, it can still be worth discussing and does not need to be shot down because the complete loop is not in place.
Also I would rather listen to the opinion of a roofer as to why my roof is leaking then say for example the opinion of a media student even though the roofer may not know the cause of the problem he has qualifications in the relevant discipline.
My point being that everyone’s opinion on something is not equal.:)

I wasn't proposing that its not worth discussing, simply that a scientist's opinion is not worth any more than anyone else's unless he's being a scientist at the time.

A roofer is being a roofer when you ask him about the roof, not so with a scientist and unproven assertions about undefined energy types.

SkepticOne

I think when the word 'energy' is being used in these contexts (e.g. 'emotional energy'), we are using the word in a metaphorical sense with respect to the meaning of the word energy in physics.

Suebh

This is what I know of residual energy(or part lol) When someone walks into a building and gets a sense of something, it could be sadness, happiness, fear etc what they are doing is 'reading' the energy which has been imprinted in that environment, this would also correlate to the fact that everyone has psychic abilities but some choose not to raise their awareness of it to any great degree. These feelings or sensations are energy but it is residual energy(energy left behind) and could/may get less as times moves on, who can say what time factor is involved lol. It would depend on the level of emotion that has been imprinted. Another thing that is classed as residual energy a ghost, a ghost is a replay of things that have happened, tis like watching a video over and over. Pls note that ghost and spirit are not the same. Spirit are living and can be communicated with, a ghost cannot.

Love and light

Sue