Massive eircom dial up bill!

Evolution

Hello,
To day I received a bill from eircom for 660 euros:eek: , my usual being around 120.
Having chccked the bill it seems that I have changed my dial-up number from 1892 150150 (eircom 150) to 1893 150150 (eircom extravagant amounts per minute)a few months back.

Around this time i changed my hard drive and had a lot of problems with viruses
so I can only assume it was my fault on one of the many occasions I had to reset the connection.

My question is that as I am paying 49:95 per month for eircom 150 should there not be some sort of safeguard in place to make sure that i am dialling the correct number and not a vastly more expensive number from the same operator?

Anybody have any info on the legal issues regarding this?

Thanks

Spocker

I can't offer any legal advice as such - theres some more info in this thread.

The 1893 number is the Flat Rate/Anytime product from Eircom, but should have cost you €29.99/month - I can't see how you ended up with such a large bill, unless this went over several months....?

The 49.95 that you pay for Eircom 150, what package is that...?

Dundalk Daily

i got a bill like this about 2 years ago, turns out it was one of those autodialers got onto my system. Eircom cleared the bill as far as i can remember. Call them, dont settle for one of those who ans your call first demand to speak to a supervisor. Throw everything at them like you going onto Gerry Ryan but dont lose it, if you get the right person they will help you out.:o

Evolution

Spocker wrote:

I can't offer any legal advice as such - theres some more info in this thread.

The 1893 number is the Flat Rate/Anytime product from Eircom, but should have cost you €29.99/month - I can't see how you ended up with such a large bill, unless this went over several months....?

The 49.95 that you pay for Eircom 150, what package is that...?

I'll check that thread spocker thanks,
Got my figures wrong it was Eircom flatrate 29.99/month.

Looks like i'll take your advice dundalk and spend a cuople of hours on the phone to them.

Cheers for the replys

Urban Weigl

As this would not have cost Eircom any extra, don't settle. As you were paying for a 150-hour package at the time, they should be able to change your bill.

If they won't, don't pay. If they disconnect your landline, get Vodafone Unlimited Data. For €49 a month, it is the only true FRIACO dialup available in Ireland (if you're not in a 3G coverage area). There's no silly 150 hour limit.

Evolution

So i rang eircom and got a supervisor after being thrown about to different sectors who wouldn't deal with me because I wanted to discuss the internet and my bill at the same time.
Supervisor explained that i may be entitled to my flatrate fee back.
Previously i had been told that i was entitled to nothing.
Any had a good discussion with the supervisor who was quite helpful and she eventually offered to cut the internet bill in half.
She also said when the next bill comes in to ring her and she will see what she can do about that.
The full original bill of 660 is being debited and then next month I will be credited with half of my internet bill, half being 200 euros.
Still might be worth contacting the regulatory body or a solicitor.
Ill post here if there are any further developements.
Thanks again for the comments

Liam Byrne

Be careful on one thing....if you accept the offer of 200 euro back, you may not have a leg to stand on at a later date with a regulatory body or a solicitor.....

Evolution

Liam Byrne wrote:

Be careful on one thing....if you accept the offer of 200 euro back, you may not have a leg to stand on at a later date with a regulatory body or a solicitor.....

Hmmm cheers for that liam.
I pretty much did agree to it though over the phone but maybe thats not valid until it is credited to my account.
Anyway a friend of mine is a solicitor so ill give him a call tomorrow, he might have more luck talking to them.

dub45

Evolution wrote:

Hmmm cheers for that liam.
I pretty much did agree to it though over the phone but maybe thats not valid until it is credited to my account.
Anyway a friend of mine is a solicitor so ill give him a call tomorrow, he might have more luck talking to them.

Dare I mention it in the current climate but have you considered asking Comreg's advice on this?

Evolution

dub45 wrote:

Dare I mention it in the current climate but have you considered asking Comreg's advice on this?

I am contacting them as we speak.
Also I am completely oblivious to the current climate.
Something to do with smart cutting people off I assume.

Little-Devil

My advice would be to accept what eircom have offered and out put what happened down to experience. I worked for an ISP before and we had a lot of calls like this. The end of day the responsibility of what you do with your broadband connection and computer if your own responsibility and not of that of eircom. They simply offer you the service of broadband connection. If you had a virus which is the usual cause of high increase in bills dialing premium numbers, then it’s your responsibility to check your connection and computer.

If you decide to take this further good luck, you'll need it………….. believe me.

wexfordman

There is no excuse for any ISP or telecom operator to make money from these premium rate numbers. Simple monitoring of call patterns and bills by the company should alert them to the fact that something is a amiss and lead them to contact the customer to check things out. You can be gauranteed that they use these methods to protect thier own revenue, but probably not to protect thier customers.

Even if it was a dialer virus (which it seems it is not from previous posts), a company that would allow a bill of this sort to run up from what was previously a normal and regular pattern is doing so just to line its pocktets in my opinion.

I agree that it is everyones responsibility to ensure as best they can that they have thier pc's virus free etc, but it is so easy for an ISP or telecomms company to identify potential issues that they should be obliged to at least contact the customer when bill patterns start to run askew.

Wexfordman

thebman

Ensure you have a firewall installed if you don't already.

Zonealarm is an excellent firewall if you don't have a complex network setup (even if you do) and is easy to setup and install. The personel edition is free.

Avast and AVG over free editions of their anti-virus products too.

Make sure to keep them up to date (should be done automatically).

Also consider downloading anti-spyware like Spybot and run it regularly if you have not already.

Also ensure that Internet Connection Sharing is not enabled if you have a network as someone else could be using your Internet connection if you have a wireless network (which you probably don't, being on dialup).

Tom Young

Evolution wrote:

Hello,
To day I received a bill from eircom for 660 euros:eek: , my usual being around 120.
Having chccked the bill it seems that I have changed my dial-up number from 1892 150150 (eircom 150) to 1893 150150 (eircom extravagant amounts per minute)a few months back.

Around this time i changed my hard drive and had a lot of problems with viruses
so I can only assume it was my fault on one of the many occasions I had to reset the connection.

My question is that as I am paying 49:95 per month for eircom 150 should there not be some sort of safeguard in place to make sure that i am dialling the correct number and not a vastly more expensive number from the same operator?

Anybody have any info on the legal issues regarding this?

Thanks

Evolution:

I've been involved with a couple of these issues before.

I suggest this might (as you say above) be your own fault.

Turning off the autodial function and the PC will mitigate certain damage and exposure to the re-dial issues. On your bills keep an eye out for any foreign calls that are not known, if there are some there this would appear to be a hijack.

You don't seem to have that symptom.

How about paying the bill for the calls made? (I know that sounds wrong or cocky, but in the event where you have certain doubts as to the operation of the PC or line/service and you think its your fault, pay, settle and mitigate in future)

Tom

robinph

I had a bill of 700 run up in a month several years ago. That was all my fault though becasue I had setup the dial up internet acess for one of the other people in the house on their PC but then I failed to keep an eye on what they were doing with it as I knew full well that they didn't have a clue as to how to use a computer.

I had to put that down to experience and never let them have access to the internet again under my name. Although it did take eircom about a year and a half before they finally got round to cutting me off for not paying that bit of the bill and me then caving in and giving them the cash.

cgarvey

1) I've never heard of a hijacker/malicious software to change an Irish specific prefix of a dialup number from 1892 to 1893, and the author (unless an eircom shareholder) would have no gain in doing so. It's remotely possible, but extremely unlikely, so I think it's safe to put it down as user error. No biggie, but you won't do that again!

2) Asking eircom to block access to other internet access numbers would be unfair on the providers of those other services. Yes, if there was a widespread similar problem, then morally they might be expected to do something, but the balance of hand holding versus the freedom to dial anywhere (without having to clear it with the telco first) is right, IMO. There are others like you, but you are in the tiny minority.

3) Legal issues wont get solved here, so do contact your friend/other legal advice

4) I'm certainly unaware of anything illegal, or even immoral IMO, that eircom have done, so I'm not sure you'll have much foundation for any action against them. If you do get advice otherwise, let us know so your experience can help others. Therefore, I think you did well getting that credit, and whilst you might get to haggle a bit more out of the supervisor, you might also manage to piss him/her off and not want to help you out at all anymore.

watty

When I changed to a CPS (tele2) I found than my 189x number was still charged by Eircom. Another regulator failure. This was actually more expensive than ordinary daytime calls on 061. So I changed my dialup to the old 061 POP number. This worked. When I later added the fixed payment to tele2 to have free weekend / evening calls < 1hr but any number of them, that worked to for Internet. I ended up paying 20 Euro per month on top od line rental instead of over 120 Euro.

The 189x numbers are a ripoff as there is no true flatrate dialup. Often a CPS supplier will work out cheaper.

Tom Young

watty wrote:

When I changed to a CPS (tele2) I found than my 189x number was still charged by Eircom. Another regulator failure. This was actually more expensive than ordinary daytime calls on 061. So I changed my dialup to the old 061 POP number. This worked. When I later added the fixed payment to tele2 to have free weekend / evening calls < 1hr but any number of them, that worked to for Internet. I ended up paying 20 Euro per month on top od line rental instead of over 120 Euro.

The 189x numbers are a ripoff as there is no true flatrate dialup. Often a CPS supplier will work out cheaper.

Watty, in the industry 1983/1892 were excluded from CPS as part of the initial CPS V21 Industry Codes (which excluded 1891 LAPOP) as the internet dial was given a billing and network configuration called NEHO (Near End Hand Over). [Though NEHO came some time later, 2/3 years]

NEHO is an arrangement where hand off dictates the rate of wholesale billing call ingress to the carrier/operator and thereby also dictating the settlement rates associated with the call type. A number holder [Telecom Carrier] gets to retain a proportion of the retail call charge, as would eircom as the fixed line originator, for arguments sake the split might be 85% 189x number holder versus 15% to eircom, this is referred to as reciprocal compensation, within a cascade[d] accounting regime [that is regulated].

Only a few operators opted to carry the 1892/1893 offerings for termination, as they were pathetically poor in terms of margin and it was generally held that consumers would move to Broadband options where they could avail of same. [Yes, cue everyone who wants to jump in here and tell me I am a thicko or whatever, feel free but note, I do note that the above sounds a little bit stupid given this forums remit and general discussion topics.]

Telecom eircom, An Bord Telecom eireann, eircom plc, and now eircom Ltd have always contended that dial-up is not a voice service and should be kept off voice interconnection networks and that use of out of area numbering is an abuse of the national numbering conventions.

The national numbering conventions have been reformed albeit slowly, in order that certain flexibility come into play for the new entrant VoIP providers etc. Basically the problem I refer to with the national numbering convention (which defies current technological enhancements) is that a number assigned to let's say 061 or 021 should technically [originate and] terminate in that area in order to achieve a local rate, regardless of the carrier carrying the call. Technically also the carrier should have a line, modem or terminal in order to terminate the call properly and accrue the cost accordinly, within its nationally designated area. The reference points or discussion topic is called Minimum Numbering Area's (MNAs) sometimes telecom people or consumers refer to that as the STD or prefix, though I make the point that the MNA is different as it can be tied to a disparate area and is ofter broken down further that the 021/061 perhaps to the first 2/5 significant digits of areas assignment e.g., 021-XYZ = Quaker Exchange area Rd, Co. Cork 021-ZZZ = Churchfield Exchange area Co. Cork.

Dial-up is a narrowband sevice and therefore does constitute (in many normal peoples opinions) a voice/narrowband service.

This has issue gone on since 1999/2000. The matter was made worse but the admission by eircom that carrier [compressed] lines were (also) causing problems with ingress. I guess also at the time the eircom interconnection network was facing boom time and they had not begun to upgrade the core network required to deal with just voice traffic.

To address your point on Regulatory failure. I can't really agree with you. This is because operators objected to migrating to the 1892/3 services initially, some moved and some didn't.

Services carried and billed by eircom include (CPS/WLR):

999/112
1891/1892/1893
eircom call card
and any ancillary services, which are line associated e.g., alarm calls, call back etc.

There was an impasse on the economics of getting an efficient return on carrying the above calls, so the matter has sat idle for some time now.

I think your right about the CPS operator being cheaper, but it depends on how they engineer the dial-up solution.

Tom

Sponge Bob

The big problem Tom was that 1891 1892 and 1893 are handed off nationally and not regionally and that operators are FORCED to pay transit cherges to eircom within the overall cost of an 189x call even if they have tandem interconnnects at the regional level.

BT have an interconnect in Galway and have had for years, nevertheless they cannot pick up their ingress in Galway.

Comreg did nothing as usual. 0818 numbers are the same

Tom Young

Sponge Bob wrote:

The big problem Tom was that 1891 1892 and 1893 are handed off nationally and not regionally and that operators are FORCED to pay transit cherges to eircom within the overall cost of an 189x call even if they have tandem interconnnects at the regional level.

BT have an interconnect in Galway and have had for years, nevertheless they cannot pick up their ingress in Galway.

Comreg did nothing as usual. 0818 numbers are the same

Humm, interesting, as BT are one of the only operators that took up NEHO initially and were partly funded by the NDP.

Currently Non-Geo's are handed off nationally [Dame and Adel Exchanges], which is correct. I'd do a facts check on the 189X issue re:NEHO, it was designed to get around the national hand-off problem.

Galway may be a specific problem for BT but who knows.

To be clear, taking 1982 and 1893 schedules in the RIO required in 1893 case, bearers at exchanges for ingress to operator network/s. 1892 NEHO required ability to structure billing systems for NEHO and rates offered at exchanges on what maybe dedicated liks/paths, depending on what was agreed with eircom.

...so your point's a little off.

0818 is a mess aswell, always has been. I'd side on the new entrants case where that is concerned, as call origination via CPS to an NGN does not take into consideration an additional kick back.

I am 99% certain the NEHO was developed to get around national hand-off but only on MIACO and FRIACO offerings, nothing else.

FRIACO - Flat Rate Internet Access Cable Uncompressed
MIACO - Metered Internet Access Cable Uncompressed
NGN [above] - Non Geo Number e.g., 15XX, 19XX, 18XX etc.
RIO - Reference Interconnection Offering (Wholesale Interconnection Contract)
CPS - Carrier Pre Selection (Single stage white list call screening access run via incubent networks to new entrant networks via a 139xx deidcated and line associated prefix code)

Sponge Bob

Maybe FRIACO is different (1893) but 1891 and 1892 are national handoffs. 1893 regional (what you call Near End Hand Over Tom ) and is a minimum of 20 interconnect nodes ...or is that the full 48 and not simply 7 interconnects as it really should be (one for 09 02 07 05 01 06 and 05 etc) IIRC or 14 at most if you take 2 points in each region in case of a fault.

Friaco does require that the operator take a PRI or multiples of PRI off eircom and that they are not aggregated onto higher capacity (cheaper ) trunks at or before handoff .

Tom Young

Sponge Bob wrote:

Maybe FRIACO is different (1893) but 1891 and 1892 are national handoffs. 1893 regional (what you call Near End Hand Over Tom ) and is a minimum of 20 interconnect nodes ...or is that the full 48 and not simply 7 interconnects as it really should be (one for 09 02 07 05 01 06 and 05 etc) IIRC or 14 at most if you take 2 points in each region in case of a fault.

Friaco does require that the operator take a PRI or multiples of PRI off eircom and that they are not aggregated onto higher capacity (cheaper ) trunks at or before handoff .

I'll have to disagree with you on both points. I can pm the links to the network and product documents if you want.

Sponge Bob

dialup is so old hat Tom but do PM them anyway to see if I was looking at the wrong ones .

tabatha

this happened to a friend of mine about 4-5 years ago. she got a huge bill from eircom for her dial up. when she called they told her something about a country called deigo garcia i think and calls being routed though there. anyway, she pointed out that she couldnt have been the one doing it as on one of the calls in paticular when she was suppose to be on the net, it was her dads funeral. herself and her husband were at the funeral at the time the call was made. really weird.

watty

Anyway, my point is that to MOST people (an indeed the CPS sales) it is a surprise to discover that you change to a different operator for your calls and eircom only for Line rental, (That's what the CPS sales folk tell you, that's what everyone thinks it is), that you still get billed some numbers from eircom.

At the time I queired Comreg as Tele2 sales thought they ought to be billing me. Comreg admitted that indeed 189x numbers did not transfer (they mentioned no other number ranges) and said they hoped this would be resolved in future. I think this was over two years ago.

Not many people realise there are geographic POP numbers for eircom / iol / bt etc nor will you find them easily. I had a file on my server of some for Munster from 1995 .. 1998 when I was installing a lot of servers with dialup for email.

Nor would it be obvious that a "free" eircom log on using these with almost ANY CPS works out cheaper than any eircom subscription dialup account. Because of a settlement (with eircom regard overcharging*) I had a reduced tarrif number for a subscription service with no subscription charge. The cps 061 even during daytime was/is cheaper!

(* Dialler on a remote server rings internet in middle of night for email, eircom server answers and hangs up because line is bad. Server redials in 10seconds. In each 1 minute you are charged for 6 x 3min calls. It can take a while to catch this on. Phone bill is typically quadrupled. eircom phone people claim eircom internet people a separate company so not their problem the way the charging works. I pointed out that both they and I had the server logs for the dialups. It was some years later the line was fixed)

Sponge Bob

ahhhhh Diego Garcia and eircoms Porn Dialler Band , Band 13 .

Don't get me started on that disgusting fraud when we are only discussing our nationally dysfunctional semi flatrate

cgarvey

tabatha wrote:

she called they told her something about a country called deigo garcia

That's a different issue entirely, and IS a result of malicious software "dialers". Generally, although not always, one would need to browse less savoury websites to come across this malicious software, which hijacks your internet connection settings to call an expensive destination (and not just down the road), for which they get a significant revenue share.

Foxwood

watty wrote:

When I changed to a CPS (tele2) I found than my 189x number was still charged by Eircom. Another regulator failure. This was actually more expensive than ordinary daytime calls on 061. ...

The 189x numbers are a ripoff as there is no true flatrate dialup. Often a CPS supplier will work out cheaper.

I recently came across something unusual on a colleagues eircom bill. They are on the "eircom bronze Options" package which gives them slightly reduced rates, and some free calls (they don't remember ever signing up for this package, and don't know how they were put on it, but never complained before, because it saved them a few bob each month).

They were away in August, so they only had about €10 worth of calls on the eircom bill. But apparently, there's a minimum spend of €12.80 for the eircom Bronze package, so eircom "made up the difference" by adding an extra chage to the bill. But the extra charge wasn't for €2.80, it was for €4.90, because the €10 included a number of 1890 calls to telestunt/dialwise, and these 1890 calls aren't included in the "minimum spend".

To make things worse, it took almost half an hour to work this out because it's not explained explictly, and the calls are all listed ex-VAT, while the "minimum charge" listed is VAT included, so trying to figure out what combination of local, national, 02, Vodafone, Meteor and International calls added up to the amount that was used to calculate the "underspend" was non-trivial. (My colleague, like 90% of the population, couldn't be arsed - "it's just eircom, you just pay the bill, there's nothing you can do about it").

It'd be interesting to know if 1892/1893 calls also fall outside the "minimum spend" basket.

Tom Young

Sponge Bob wrote:

ahhhhh Diego Garcia and eircoms Porn Dialler Band , Band 13 .

Don't get me started on that disgusting fraud when we are only discussing our nationally dysfunctional semi flatrate

Tab, might have been a ghost! Sorry. Couldn't resist.

Sponge Bob is correct. Mostly operators will give a once off refund on the initial finding of a Band 10/13 modem hijack.

Pity ComReg forgot about the politics of blocking 13 countries en masse when their inital consultation was issued.

Terribly annoying issue.

Tom Young

Foxwood wrote:

It'd be interesting to know if 1892/1893 calls also fall outside the "minimum spend" basket.

Believe it does, don't have time to verify. Can be found on the eircom.ie site under telecommunications scheme. Its burried btw.

Tom:cool:

Foxwood

Tom Young wrote:

Its burried btw.

Quelle Surprise!