School wants proof my child is a catholic

OTK

Hi there
I want to send my kid to the local national school. he is 4 yrs old.

My wife put his name down last year and now I have been offered a place conditional on me sending in his baptismal cert.

thing is he doesn't have one as my family is not religious.

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the state paying for sectarian discriminatory schools run by a paedophile club, how am i going to get my kid into the school?

I have three plans so far:
a) beg priest to baptise my child. Pretend I love jebus etc. Is there a quicky service or does the priest make you go through some months long process?
b) photocopy someone else's baptismal cert and tippex on my kids name, photocopy again, present fraudulent document (am I breaking the law?)
c) procrastinate about the cert for ages and never get round to producing it

I know there is a school for non religious called educate together but you have to have your name down for years and it is nowhere near my house.

thanks for your thoughts

OTK

Nevyn

Baptismal cert ?
I have never heard of that I was asked for the birth certs for both my children when I enrolled them.

Is it the schools enrollment policy to ask for the baptismal certs have you a copy of the school's enrollment policy.

Most of the primary schools will first give places to the children of the parish and then other parishes and then children of other faiths.

There usually is not such thing as a 'quickie' baptismal.
It can take some weeks if not months.
There are classes that you have to undertake and some very serious vows that you are expected to make on your behalf and that of the child.
Personally I could not be that much of a hypercrite or bow to family pressure and niether of my children are baptised.

You could be breaking the law by producing false documents and what happens when the child reaches the age of confession and holy communion.

Why not just present the birth cert and see what happens.

There is a waiting list for most primary schools at this stage not just the multidemoninational educate together schools.
A lot of schools are pushing for child not to start until they are at least 5.

Your chid does have the right to an education but not at the school of your choosing and primary school can set up thier own 'guidelines' in thier enrollment policy with thier patron and the department of education is reluctant to interfer.

Did you when you put your child's name down mention you were not catholic/christain ? or were you asked ? if you were asked what did you say ?

Ayla

Sorry, I'm new to the system here, but as I'll have to deal with it in the next few years I'm keen to learn as much as I can.

Is it true that a national, state-sponsored school can effectively discriminate through the enrollment process based on the child's religion? I would understand completely if it is a private school, but a national public school?

I'm confused here...is that what you're really saying? How can that be right? If it is right, what happens to the non-baptised children? Are they delayed education until all of the baptised children are enrolled? Why would this be acceptable to the department of education?

OTK

Thaedydal wrote:

Baptismal cert ?
I have never heard of that I was asked for the birth certs for both my children when I enrolled them.

The letter asks for a baptismal cert. I might try sending in a birth cert.

Is it the schools enrollment policy to ask for the baptismal certs have you a copy of the school's enrollment policy.

Do all schools have a written enrollment policy? I might get someone else to ring up and ask for it.

There are classes that you have to undertake and some very serious vows that you are expected to make on your behalf and that of the child.
Personally I could not be that much of a hypercrite or bow to family pressure and niether of my children are baptised.

I really do not want to go through with this rubbish. I am not under family pressure.

You could be breaking the law by producing false documents and what happens when the child reaches the age of confession and holy communion.

I wouldn't be sure that it was illegal. I guess he will be sick on communion and confirmation. No matter what he is going to have to sit through religion classes and it will be up to us to deprogram him afterwards.

Why not just present the birth cert and see what happens.

will do

Did you when you put your child's name down mention you were not catholic/christain ? or were you asked ? if you were asked what did you say ?

My wife told me today that she lied and said he was a catholic. She knew it was hard to get a place and didn't want to be deprioritised. She is more equivocal about the whole thing.

Kildrought

Is it true that a national, state-sponsored school can effectively discriminate through the enrollment process based on the child's religion

Yes.

Trinity

That is pure madness. Non-catholic children do not have to sit through religion afaik and no they cannot NOT accept him as he is non catholic.

If you would like me to look into this could you PM me the name of the school?

Ayla

Is there anywhere that the Dept of Ed would have this written that such discrimination is allowable? Obviously they wouldn't call it such, but is anything written in a charter/etc that would detail that this is ok?

I can't imagine why this is allowable? Surely the face of Ireland has changed enough over the last couple generations that such discrimination is outdated? I'm finding this shocking, and if I run into a problem w/ it when I go to register my kids in a few years I think some heads will roll.

kippy

Interesting thread, although I dont think this comment was warranted:

Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the state paying for sectarian discriminatory schools run by a paedophile club, how am i going to get my kid into the school?

If you dont want your child going to a catholic school I think you should perhaps look at the other forms of education available to you. I am not sure where you are based but depending on pupil numbers different schools have different selection criteria.

Presenting a "Fake" baptisimal cert is breaking the law.

Trinity

Ayla wrote:

Is there anywhere that the Dept of Ed would have this written that such discrimination is allowable? Obviously they wouldn't call it such, but is anything written in a charter/etc that would detail that this is ok?

I can't imagine why this is allowable? Surely the face of Ireland has changed enough over the last couple generations that such discrimination is outdated? I'm finding this shocking, and if I run into a problem w/ it when I go to register my kids in a few years I think some heads will roll.

I would be very surprised if this was allowed.I will make enquiries.

Ayla

kippy wrote:

I am not sure where you are based but depending on pupil numbers different schools have different selection criteria.

Irregardless of where the school is based, the selection criteria should never be a child's religion in a national, state-sponsored school

mountainyman

Don't produce it just procrastinate and procrastinate. There will be no problem.

HOWEVER:

They will successfully convert your children to Ctaholicism if you are cool with that cool. If not look for an alternative.

This happened to us though I was pleased.

The difficulty with the Educate Together schools is that it is basically a bunch of really posh people who get together to keep out the commoners; you won't get in. Is there a Gaelscoil in your area, they tend to be less religious.

Is there any other school that they can go to. Doesn't the government have to provide a place for them in the physically nearest school of their religion?

It is a bit leftfield but why not baptise them anglican? The schools are excellent; socially it is useful and the secondary schools are really expensive but anglicans attend for free (if the parents can't afford it). If you don't care about religion it is a winner I think.

MM

OTK

kippy wrote:

Interesting thread, although I dont think this comment was warranted:

I don't think raping children with gay abandon for decades was warranted and I don't think the fact that this organisation covered it up and received no sanction beyond their negotiated indemnity bond was warranted. But hey that's just me.

Presenting a "Fake" baptisimal cert is breaking the law.

Do you know which law? I don't want to break the law.

I found some good information about primary school structures on oasis.gov.ie
http://www.oasis.gov.ie/education/primary_education/ownership_of_schools.html

It seems that the primary schools are owned by the churches. In return for the use of their buildings, the state pays the entire operational costs and teachers' salaries and allows the archbishops to control the school boards and operate sectarian selection practices.

Kildrought

Education Act 2000, see also www.education.ie

Schools may define their entry requirements and priority to entry; based on the ethos of the school, priority can include religion, catchment area, siblings already in school etc.,

kippy

Irregardless of where the school is based, the selection criteria should never be a child's religion in a national, state-sponsored school

So what should the criteria be then?
If its a catholic school surely one of the criteria be that the child is catholic?
Kippy

Mr. Presentable

It's a disappointing situation, but not shocking, and not outside the rights of the school.

Why, though, would you want to send your child to a school whose ethos is at such variance with your own?

OTK

mountainyman wrote:

Don't produce it just procrastinate and procrastinate. There will be no problem.

Great, I hope this is true.

They will successfully convert your children to Ctaholicism if you are cool with that cool. If not look for an alternative.

This happened to us though I was pleased.

Ok fair point

The difficulty with the Educate Together schools is that it is basically a bunch of really posh people who get together to keep out the commoners; you won't get in.

sounds like you didn't get in? I'd have no problem with my kid going to a posh school, I just didn't know about in time. It's my fault. I'd like the idea of my kid learning about other religions without being told that any of them were the correct one.

Is there a Gaelscoil in your area, they tend to be less religious.

Are they not run by republicans? Is this a misconception?

It is a bit leftfield but why not baptise them anglican? The schools are excellent; socially it is useful and the secondary schools are really expensive but anglicans attend for free (if the parents can't afford it). If you don't care about religion it is a winner I think.

Yes there is a good protestant school nearby and for some reason I find their religion less unpleasant than catholicism. I am going to look into this.

Ayla

My point is that I can't understand why religion is involved at all (although OTK's Oasis reference has clarified that a bit). A national school is there to educate our children in maths, sciences, arts, languages, etc. The way I see it, if you want your child to learn religion you take them to religious classes held by the various religious sects.

I think the ownership of the school building and payment of education by the government smacks of the old feudal system, and I'm amazed it's still existing. I completely understand if the school system wants to prioritize based on catchment areas, previous siblings, child's age, etc., as those criteria all directly influence the functioning and effectiveness of the school.

But religion? What century are we in?

kippy

I don't think raping children with gay abandon for decades was warranted and I don't think the fact that this organisation covered it up and received no sanction beyond their negotiated indemnity bond was warranted. But hey that's just me.

I dont think the fact that you are tarring every single priest, nun, bishop etc with the same brush is warranted in any way. The main thing thats pissing you off here by the sounds of it, is that you are a bit pissed off because you'll have that bit extra hassle in getting the kids to school because you are not a catholic.
If you were so anti catholic I dont think youd have thought twice about sending you kids to this school. The main reason you are sending them there is because it is handy for you. DO you want then listening to all this religius spiel that you so badly disagree with, if not then you shouldnt have applied there.

It seems that the primary schools are owned by the churches. In return for the use of their buildings, the state pays the entire operational costs and teachers' salaries and allows the archbishops to control the school boards and operate sectarian selection practices.

What selection polices would you like to see in place?

OTK

nipplenuts wrote:

It's a disappointing situation, but not shocking, and not outside the rights of the school.

Why, though, would you want to send your child to a school whose ethos is at such variance with your own?

I live next door. He'd be able to walk to school.

I am an atheist Christian so a christian ethos would be quite OK with me. I wish religion was taught outside of school hours like piano lessons. Then the kids could go to the same schools and there wouldn't be a problem.

kippy

My point is that I can't understand why religion is involved at all (although OTK's Oasis reference has clarified that a bit). A national school is there to educate our children in maths, sciences, arts, languages, etc. The way I see it, if you want your child to learn religion you take them to religious classes held by the various religious sects.

I think the ownership of the school building and payment of education by the government smacks of the old feudal system, and I'm amazed it's still existing. I completely understand if the school system wants to prioritize based on catchment areas, previous siblings, child's age, etc., as those criteria all directly influence the functioning and effectiveness of the school.

But religion? What century are we in?

I do agree with you.
In modern Ireland there are many faiths/beliefs etc and to make these part of a selection criteria for schools is a bit draconian. However, the OP knew about the rules before he applied to the school, I dont think that because he believes that these rules are stupid, makes it right for him to con his way into the school correct.
If he doesnt agree with the religion etc then he should look for other alternatives.
The reason I asked where the person lives is because in the bigger cities there are alternatives, not so many out from the city and in that case, I dont think the schools have these criteria, as they dont have the same amount of numbers applying to go there so they will allow all relisions in.
So the Catholic thing is only a criteria when the school does not have the places available for all people applying. Because of the history of the national school system, catholics get first places.....
fair enough in my opinion.
Kippy

Nevyn

OTK wrote:

Do all schools have a written enrollment policy? I might get someone else to ring up and ask for it.

Yes they have do as part of thier charter and patronage.

Ayla wrote:

Is it true that a national, state-sponsored school can effectively discriminate through the enrollment process based on the child's religion?

Yes as they are state funded but they are not state sponsored.

Ayla wrote:

I would understand completely if it is a private school, but a national public school?

Infact they are private schools but paid for by public taxes.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/education/primary_education/ownership_of_schools.html

Ownership of primary schools
Information

The vast majority of primary schools in Ireland are privately owned and supported by the different churches. The state pays the bulk of the building and running costs and a local contribution is made towards the running costs.

National schools are privately owned - in general by the relevant church authorities. In the case of Catholic schools, the owners are usually the diocesan trustees; the same is true for Church of Ireland schools. Other denominational schools usually have a board of trustees nominated by the church authorities. Multi-denominational schools are usually owned by a limited company or board of trustees.

Gaelscoileanna may be denominational and come under the same patronage as Catholic schools but some have their own limited company.

Ayla wrote:

I'm confused here...is that what you're really saying? How can that be right? If it is right, what happens to the non-baptised children? Are they delayed education until all of the baptised children are enrolled? Why would this be acceptable to the department of education?

Yes a school that has a christian patron who sets up the school for christain children is allows to give priority to christian children of the same demonination as the school, then other denominations and then lastly children that are not baptised.

There are islamic schools that do the same for islamic children.

The educate together school is multidenominational and does not stream appliacants according to if they are baptised or not.

There are really no national/primary schools that are completly non denominational and that have the dept of education as thier patron.

Children that do not fit the top critea of a schools enrollment policy are left to last on the list and may not get a place in that school.
It is getting to the stage where parents may have to look futher away from home to get thier child into school as they are not garenteed a place in the local school esp if the local school has a certain religious ethos and the child is not of the same or any religious ethos.

A child can start school at the age of 4 but they don't have to start school until the age of 6 and with waiting lists being so long some schools are encouraging parents to not start the child until the age of 6.

Children do have a right to education but not in thier local school or the school of the parents choosing under the current system and yes this is unfair.

OTK would you prefer for you child to be in an educate together school if one was close to you ?
There is a campagian running for this atm you can see more about it here.
http://www.educatetogether.ie/4_help_us_with_our_work/letter_to_minister.html

I think it is an horrible position to be in and you may have to delay your child starting school and not have the child in a school close to home.
I would come clean with the school get a copy of thier enrollment policy, get in touch with the dept of education and on to your local TDs about it and see what can be done.

kippy

Great post Thaedydal, very informative and well researched.
It is indeed a difficult position to be in-hopfully the OP gets it resolved.
Kippy

Kildrought

but anglicans attend for free (if the parents can't afford it).

not quite correct

The SEC means-tested grant has maximum limits; generally up to 40% of the school fee payable. And those schools also give priority to children of a specific religion in some cases requiring references from your minister/vicar.

Nevyn

mountainyman wrote:

The difficulty with the Educate Together schools is that it is basically a bunch of really posh people who get together to keep out the commoners; you won't get in. Is there a Gaelscoil in your area, they tend to be less religious.

mountainyman you have been warned repeatly on this forum about casting slurs against educate together school and the parents that used them, your experience and opinion is not everyones.

otk wrote:

I don't think raping children with gay abandon for decades was warranted and I don't think the fact that this organisation covered it up and received no sanction beyond their negotiated indemnity bond was warranted. But hey that's just me.

I don't see how that is relavant the people you need to be harraging and harassing are your local td and the dep of education.

Ayla

Thaedydal wrote:

There are really no national/primary schools that are completly non denominational and that have the dept of education as thier patron.

Ok, this is my point. Why not???

Why are the schools still owned by the churches, and why are parents allowing themselves to get sucked into schools that they may not prefer, just b/c their religion dictates where their kids can go? Why is everyone rolling over and just taking this?

Shouldn't school be about the best interest of the children (ie: starting early, learning the basics, etc) versus delaying education b/c you can't get in b/c of your religion??? No, I'm sorry, but that's not right. I'll put my kids before religion (as I'm sure we all do), and the "system" saying that my kids won't get into a good (close/small/etc) school b/c I decided not to baptise them is just wrong.

fly_agaric

OTK wrote:

Are they not run by republicans? Is this a misconception?

If you mean that the way it sounds...:eek:...well, they could be a bit particular about the nipper having his little armalite ready for the 1st day! Thanks for the belly-laugh!

Ayla wrote:

Surely the face of Ireland has changed enough over the last couple generations that such discrimination is outdated?

You really seem to have no idea what a very, very, Catholic and God-Fearing little place this country was and that was (and still is) reflected in how things are set up. It is outdated, but the "changes" in these regards here probably started in the last 2 decades and have accelerated in the past decade rather than kicking off "generations" ago.

Ayla

fly_agaric wrote:

It is outdated, but the big "changes" in this probably began about 2 decades ago rather than "generations" ago.

Well, by God, if the changes started 20 years ago, then we should be seeing some evolution in the school system by now! Is this a matter of everyone sitting on their hands, or have parents just not been irked enough to push educational reform?

I want my kids to have the best education possible and be at school from an early age, learning their subjects. I don't care who sits next to them in class, in fact I would welcome a multi-religious student body. That's the world we live in now and it's time the schools catch up.

Nevyn

Ayla wrote:

Why are the schools still owned by the churches,

Because the government can't afford to buy them and the land off the church nor does it want to been to be spitting in the face of the churches ( both catholic and prodestant ).

Ayla wrote:

and why are parents allowing themselves to get sucked into schools that they may not prefer,

Because they happen to be the local school and they want the child to be able to walk to scholl and be in school with thier friend to be close to home.

Ayla wrote:

Why is everyone rolling over and just taking this?

Some people aren't which is why the educate together charity was started to set up an alterantive and patron mulitdenominational schools.
the majority of new primary school and new primary school being planned are multidenominational schools.

Ayla wrote:

Shouldn't school be about the best interest of the children (ie: starting early, learning the basics, etc) versus delaying education b/c you can't get in b/c of your religion??? No, I'm sorry, but that's not right. I'll put my kids before religion (as I'm sure we all do), and the "system" saying that my kids won't get into a good (close/small/etc) school b/c I decided not to baptise them is just wrong.

I would agree with you, personally I don't like having to walk trough the local churches grounds to gain acess to my childrens primary school but is was build on the church grounds. The school has a wonderful way of acomidating those that are not christain but I am lucky that mine got in when they did and I wonder if I was applying today on thier behalf would they get in.

The lack of places in schools and in fact schools themselves is down to bad planning and lack of joined up thinking. Really with all the houses being built it was a suprise that there would be a need for more schools ?
With the levels of imagration it is a surpise that there is a need for more schools and school places.

This will only get worse when the bubble of children start looking for secondary school places.

MiniMetro

OTK wrote:

Hi there
Leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the state paying for sectarian discriminatory schools run by a paedophile club, how am i going to get my kid into the school?

I have three plans so far:
a) beg priest to baptise my child. Pretend I love jebus etc. Is there a quicky service or does the priest make you go through some months long process?
b) photocopy someone else's baptismal cert and tippex on my kids name, photocopy again, present fraudulent document (am I breaking the law?)
c) procrastinate about the cert for ages and never get round to producing it

OTK

God help us all that you are actually a parent.

Nevyn

MiniMetro I suggest you read the charter of this forum before posting in it again.

joolsveer

My daughter went to the local national school, in Dublin 15, which is catholic. In her class there were moslems and at least one buddist. Although the school is catholic there was no discrimination against children of other religions or none. When my daughter made her confirmation I remember her moslem friend at the party in the priest's garden. There was no attempt to convert the children and the religious education included aspects of all religions.

My daughter now attends a catholic secondary school which has many moslem pupils also. In this day and age I can't see that religious intolerance would be put up with.

The local anglican primary school has a majority of catholic pupils because it is so popular.

fly_agaric

Kind of sorry I opened my beak on this thread (I never post here usually) but it looked very interesting (for a few reasons incl. the mendacity people will engage in to get their children into the school they want!)...

Ayla wrote:

Well, by God, if the changes started 20 years ago, then we should be seeing some evolution in the school system by now!

Why would there be a big demand for changes to the education system if almost all of the people in the country until under a decade ago were devoutly Catholic to the extent of massgoing every Sunday or possibly somewhat lapsed Catholics who didn't mind the Church having a big role in their kid's education? Protestant-ethos/run schools for a small and shrinking number of Protestants and everyone is pretty much covered.

Who would have fought to take control of education away from churches anyway? I mean you know who would oppose it of course (the Church, and those devout Catholics, probably Protestants too).

The changes to Irelands' demographics in the past 1/2 decade combined with the dislike of the Catholic Church stirred up by the exposure of the child abuse scandals and the fact that people have become less religious in the same time period might mean there could be more of a mood for change now, but it still would be a battle I'd say.

As Thaedydal mentioned, alot of the newer schools are going to be outside of Catholic church control now and multi or non-denominational (or perhaps Islamic or protestant, which you might also disagree with) so probably the Church's influence on education will wane over the coming years rather than a big battle being fought to make schools non or multi-denominational...

In any case, the "changes" I was referring to were just an increase in Irish peoples' willingness to challenge certain Catholic doctrines (and their reflection in the laws here) + the authority of priests and bishops and their political clout etc. Not the massive change in attitude implied by actually wanting to take control of education completely away from the religious!

OTK

OK so thanks for all the replies. I will write to my TDs and request an educate together school but I doubt it will do any good for my kid (maybe the next one).

It came as a surprise to me to learn that the national schools are not owned by the state.

I think the history of child rape and cover-up in the church is of direct relevance when choosing a school. While more than 95% of priests may not have actually abused children, the church has been found to have systematically and comprehensively covered up for those who did, and in doing so, allowed many more children to be attacked. I cannot see how such a morally corrupt organisation could be allowed to continue running state school boards.

I just rang my solicitor and he thinks that altering a document in order to obtain a service by deception (in this case an education) may well apply but I'd be unlikely to be prosecuted. He recommends prevaricating.

MiniMetro wrote:

God help us all that you are actually a parent.

Yes, I'm a terrible person. Thing is I've never raped a child or belonged to an organisation that put its own self-preservation ahead of the protection of children, so I'm not going to feel that bad.

Trinity

I would talk to the school.

the Department of education seem to have put a lot of time and money into social inclusion, and there are more educate togethers opening all the time. One just opened in Balbriggan for example.

Again if you want me to look into it feel free to PM me.

GAA widow

OTK :
One question - did you ask the school whether or not they accepted children of different religions in the school?


The school asking for a baptismal cert does not automatically mean they are anti all other faiths!

You said that you told the school your child was a Catholic, that is why you were asked for a baptismal cert. If you told the school that your child was another religion/no religion you would not have been asked for one.

A baptismal cert does verify that a child is Catholic but the main reason it is requested in schools is so that there is a baptismal cert on file for when the child makes their Communion and Confirmation, in a school where Catholic children are prepared for the sacraments. Also a baptismal cert verifies the child's age, so it saves having to request a birth cert also.

Most Catholic schools accept children of all denominations - where I teach there's Catholics, Protestants, Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, Seventh Day Adventists, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Russian Orthodox, even Wicans.

Ring the school, tell them your child isn't Catholic, ask if it's an issue and see what they say. They'll probably ask for a birth cert instead to verify your child's age.

scrattletrap

The school my children go to is a catholic school and a baptismal cert was required. I am not catholic but got my boys baptised on the same day (one was almost four and the other almost two) for the sole purpose of getting them into a good school. To me the piece of paper meant nothing but if it meant my children had a better education I was all for it.
Since then my eldest has had his first communion with his class but he has never attended mass outside of school.

SarahMc

Are they not run by republicans? Is this a misconception?

You haven't exactly done your research on educational options have you? There are dozens of gaelscoileanna in Dublin. The vast majority of children attending come from English speaking families. Free Irish speaking secondary schools send more children to universities than any of the fee paying schools.

Parents in gaelscoillenna (like Educate Together) are actively involved in the running of the school. Classes tend to be small. Plus there is loads of research to show children who are taught through a dual language at an early age perform better at other subjects, especially maths.

Also, children who start school at 5 do much better socially and academically than those who start at 4 - but thats a whole other thread.

Blush_01

OTK wrote:

OK so thanks for all the replies. I will write to my TDs and request an educate together school but I doubt it will do any good for my kid (maybe the next one).

It came as a surprise to me to learn that the national schools are not owned by the state.

I think the history of child rape and cover-up in the church is of direct relevance when choosing a school. While more than 95% of priests may not have actually abused children, the church has been found to have systematically and comprehensively covered up for those who did, and in doing so, allowed many more children to be attacked. I cannot see how such a morally corrupt organisation could be allowed to continue running state school boards.

I just rang my solicitor and he thinks that altering a document in order to obtain a service by deception (in this case an education) may well apply but I'd be unlikely to be prosecuted. He recommends prevaricating.

Yes, I'm a terrible person. Thing is I've never raped a child or belonged to an organisation that put its own self-preservation ahead of the protection of children, so I'm not going to feel that bad.

Your wife told them your child was catholic. They probably hear that from hundreds of parents. Are you surprised that they want proof? If she hadn't lied, it probably wouldn't be an issue. So in my opinion, you're in the wrong, regardless of the rights or wrongs of the past.

Come clean. See what the story is then.

Honesty is not that bloody expensive, people should be better able to afford it in this day and age.

OTK

GAA widow wrote:

OTK :
One question - did you ask the school whether or not they accepted children of different religions in the school?

Catholics get preference as do relatives of existing pupils. The school is oversubscribed.

Ring the school, tell them your child isn't Catholic, ask if it's an issue and see what they say. They'll probably ask for a birth cert instead to verify your child's age.

They'd probably want to know why my wife lied to them.

scrattletrap wrote:

The school my children go to is a catholic school and a baptismal cert was required. I am not catholic but got my boys baptised on the same day (one was almost four and the other almost two) for the sole purpose of getting them into a good school. To me the piece of paper meant nothing but if it meant my children had a better education I was all for it.
Since then my eldest has had his first communion with his class but he has never attended mass outside of school.

Forced conversion.

SarahMc wrote:

You haven't exactly done your research on educational options have you? There are dozens of gaelscoileanna in Dublin. The vast majority of children attending come from English speaking families. Free Irish speaking secondary schools send more children to universities than any of the fee paying schools.

I know nothing about them. I just imagined they had something to do with anti-brit pro-lifers.

Also, children who start school at 5 do much better socially and academically than those who start at 4 - but thats a whole other thread.

he's not starting school until next year when he's five.

deisemum

My children go to a catholic school and you have to be from the parish as it's over subscribed and priority is given to catholics then non catholic. Unlike other schools in the area you are never told or get to see where you are on the list.

However if you are a certain profession and not even living in the parish you will be accepted and others who are entitled to a place don't get in depending on their parents job title.

In catholic schools it's usually the parish priest who's the chairman of the BOM. The catholic church are still covering up abuses. In our school the parish priest and principal cover up any abuse carried out by teachers against children and when a parent will not back down you are threatened in the worst possible way.

School and church should be separate.

Madam

I think OTK has a whole different agenda and it's far from which school he wants to send his sprog too. Why would you send your child to a school when you so obviously hate the whole ethos of what that school stands for.

Nevyn

Why would you not want to send your child to the closest school ?
Esp if it is the best school in the area.

Unfortunatly the vast majority of primary schools have a religous ethos and there is not a real vaible option yet for most people.

SarahMc

Agree with above, this is a huge decision, and should be based not just on the fact that the Catholic school is more geographically convenient. The school you want to send your child to, is a catholic school, with a catholic ethos, which will strongly influence how religion and sex ed are taught. If these views are diametrically opposed to your own, its time to do some serious research on other options open to you.

(and sorry, assumed from op that child was starting when he was 4)

kippy

My daughter went to the local national school, in Dublin 15, which is catholic. In her class there were moslems and at least one buddist. Although the school is catholic there was no discrimination against children of other religions or none. When my daughter made her confirmation I remember her moslem friend at the party in the priest's garden. There was no attempt to convert the children and the religious education included aspects of all religions.

My daughter now attends a catholic secondary school which has many moslem pupils also. In this day and age I can't see that religious intolerance would be put up with.

The local anglican primary school has a majority of catholic pupils because it is so popular.

I think some people have lost sight of the thread.......
Its not about religions intolerance or anything like it-religious intolerance within schools is not accepted in any way.
If a school is oversubscribed, as the OP points out is the case, the school has a right to decide on who gets in based on religion.In this case catholic being the deciding factor, which has been pointed out is also common among other religiously run schools. It has also been pointed out that schools have a right to use religion as the deciding factor.
Some people believe this to be incorrect-yet havent come up with a viable alternative to be used when schools are oversubscribed.
Location is not a viable alternative. Nor is age. What next?
The OP's obvious complete hatred and lack of respect for the catholic church in general is tainting this thread. The catholic church have a big say in the running of many of our schools, not all people within the church are bad people-the organisation has been at fault in the past however, if you dont want to "give them your money" or access to your kids,dont send them to a catholic school-it is that simple.

You seem to have a lot of preconceived notions about many organisations running these schools. You statements regarding the running of the GaelScoileanna is shocking! You've obviously not done any research into the options available to you and are prepared to overlook your irk of the catholic chuch to make life easier on yourself. Then when you find out that they actually check the vaildity of your application, you blame it all on the raping of kids by the church in years gone by?
If you dont agree with the selection process, write to the BOM or your local representative.
I have very little sympathy for your current predicament but hope you find a solution to keep all parties happy.

Kippy

OTK

There is a clear difference between condemning an organisation for its failings and condemning every individual member of an organisation. An organisation has an existence on its own apart from its members. It can own property, take people to court, borrow money, deal in stocks, and it has its own value system. In the case of the Catholic church, one of thosevalues was that child rape was a less serious crime than damaging the reputation of the church.

kippy wrote:

the organisation has been at fault in the past

Yes that's one way of putting it.

however, if you dont want to "give them your money" or access to your kids,dont send them to a catholic school-it is that simple.

Not that simple though, is it? I have already given then my money in the form of my taxes which pay the salaries and costs of the school. If my kid doesn't attend the local school I will have to pay additional costs in time and transport to ferry the kid elsewhere.

There are endless ways to allocate school places in an oversubscribed school other than religion.

I see no reason why distance from the school should not be used.
Or lottery
Or auction the places off
Or transfer capacity from a less popular school

Victor

Ayla wrote:

Irregardless of where the school is based, the selection criteria should never be a child's religion in a national, state-sponsored school

Its not, its a religious, state-supported school.

Ayla wrote:

Why are the schools still owned by the churches

Because the state doesn't have the will, means or whereabouts to manage several thousand schools. Do you really want civil servants or the local resident's committee types running the school?

Also if the state takes over all the school, it also takes over all the scools from minority denominations, endangering those denominations.

Thaedydal wrote:

Because they happen to be the local school and they want the child to be able to walk to scholl and be in school with thier friend to be close to home.

But still they are driven to school.

kippy

Not that simple though, is it? I have already given then my money in the form of my taxes which pay the salaries and costs of the school. If my kid doesn't attend the local school I will have to pay additional costs in time and transport to ferry the kid elsewhere.

There are endless ways to allocate school places in an oversubscribed school other than religion.

I see no reason why distance from the school should not be used.
Or lottery
Or auction the places off
Or transfer capacity from a less popular school

We all pay taxes for services that many of us dont currently and never will utilise. Thats the taxation system for you-it doesnt bother me.
Distance from school cannot be used as house prices close to schools will inadvertantly jump to a higher level than that which they are already at. Not a goer at all, but it would obviously come into it if both kids satisfied the other criteria.
Auction places? So that the richer get first choice?
A lottery-not bad,could be a goer. Suggest it to your local representatives.
Transfer capacity-hmm, what do you mean by this? If the school six miles away has 20 free places, send 20 of the oversubscribed places to that school or move the 20 desk/chairs/space from the underscribed school.
You've condemed the organisation, fair enough, yet have no problem in lying to get your child into the organisations school. A bit ironic.
Kippy

Talliesin

mountainyman wrote:

The difficulty with the Educate Together schools is that it is basically a bunch of really posh people who get together to keep out the commoners; you won't get in. Is there a Gaelscoil in your area, they tend to be less religious.

Yes, when people aren't looking they hide the working class and immigrant kids in a basement or something. :rolleyes:

OTK

Victor wrote:

Because the state doesn't have the will, means or whereabouts to manage several thousand schools. Do you really want civil servants or the local resident's committee types running the school?

Do you believe the local parish priest is doing a better job under instruction from an archbishop?

kippy

Do you believe the local parish priest is doing a better job under instruction from an archbishop?

The local PP aint doing too bad if you want to send your kids to the school.

I assume if he were doing a bad job of running the school you would want to send your kids there and their selection criteria when oversubscribed wouldnt be so much of a problem for you.

Kippy

Kernel32

Madam wrote:

I think OTK has a whole different agenda and it's far from which school he wants to send his sprog too. Why would you send your child to a school when you so obviously hate the whole ethos of what that school stands for.

One of the biggest reasons I will not return to Ireland to raise my two kids is because of the 19th century student selection process used by publicly funded schools in Ireland. It's mind boggling in this day and age that religion plays such a role. I would be embarrassed to tell anyone outside of Ireland about it.

Where I live I have a choice. Public schools are completely non-denominational. There are various private religious schools to choose from also. There is a controversial program called school vouchers. Basically if you choose a private school you are entitled to tax back to use towards your child's education. Not near enough to cover tuition but at least its something.

Like the OP I have raised my kids non-denominational. We recently went looking for a preschool for my son. We found the most convenient at the best price and well run was a local Lutheran preschool. After struggling with it for a while we sent him there and he loves it. He gets exposed to some religious imagery and a pastor reads them a story once a month. I am willing to live with that if he has fun, learns a little and gets well taken care of. Making compromises when raising kids is all part of parenthood. I don't see any problem with OTK wanting to send his child to the school if he feels it is the best he can make of a bad and broken system.