Yes,Baby.......Yes!!!!

trendkill

v10

If Alonso wins the Championship this year (and now he probably will), it will be a pity. One of the least liked drivers in F1. Ah well. The only thing that kept a smile on my face this morning was knowing that he's gonna get his ass kicked next year in a $hite McLaren

trendkill

Pah!, well its always great seeing Schumi Lose......


Throughout the years.. how many people ended up hating Schumi, well thats one record alonso will never beat!

el rabitos

woot woot!

v10

trendkill wrote:

.. how many people ended up hating Schumi, well thats one record alonso will never beat!

Actually Alonso does have that record (being least liked)

2006 Official F1 Survey:

Twenty-eight percent of the 91,000-plus fans that took part in the global survey said that Schumacher was their favourite.

Raikkonen was next up on 17%.

Surprisingly perhaps, Hungarian GP winner Jenson Button was third most popular on 8% ahead of Alonso (7%),

Dcully

Haha bye bye Shcumi and good riddance.

dor83

Remember, Schumi could still win it. I know its not likely but it could happen.

trendkill

28% of 91,000 isnt too much, considering all the millions of viewers, 91,000 voting is just a pebble. Plus, how many years has schumi raced, how many times his proven he isn't the "people's racer". So ... Alonso complains.... schumacher did his fair share of complaining too... not that he had much to complain about... memory recalls, one weekend, Barrichello's Chassis was faster.... exact same set-up, he complained and Ferrari gave him Barrichello's chassis for race day.

If you were fighting for the world championship.. and you had the same problems as Alonso, you too would be complaining

v10

28% is 28% regardless of how many people voted ...

Considering there are 22 Drivers (excluding test drivers, I'm not sure if they were included) therefore 1 driver = approx <5% of total drivers;to get 28% is a lot.

Its 4 times the amount that voted for Alonso, so I think its fair to say who's less liked.

trendkill

I took part in that survey as im sure alot of people here too also did. All im saying is that we could be looking at the guy thats gonna beat the schumacher records....and its a real possibility, he's greatness cant be questioned... he has now almost beat schumacher fair and square to a world title.... making him a double champ..a feat that shumi fans can't detract from... with so many years left to race....its gonna be good... Well the F1 drivers liked him enough to get him to be president of the GPDA...

v10

trendkill wrote:

All im saying is that we could be looking at the guy thats gonna beat the schumacher records....and its a real possibility

I doubt it.

trendkill wrote:

Well the F1 drivers liked him enough to get him to be president of the GPDA...

Not president. A director along with Mark Webber and Ralf Schumacher.

Dcully

Hey V10 do you have a general dislike for Alonso or just anyone who happens to beat you hero?
Suppose we can add Villineuve and Hakkinen to that to eh.

Robbo

Dear lord, a popularity contest between the Red Baron and the Tesco Value Russell Brand? With fanboys?

Any chance some actual racing could be discussed, rather than who was voted most sexy F1 champ by the readers of Sugar magazine?

steviec

Can't believe people are happy about a Formula 1 championship being decided by the faster guy breaking down. Great finale to the season eh :rolleyes:

Of course anything could happen in the last race, but its hard to imagine Alonso breaking down with a fresh engine in a car that's had unparallelled reliability for the last couple of years.

One thing I took from the race though was Schumacher's reaction when he returned to the team garage. Yet again he showed he's the class of the field in more ways than just talent. It was a very stark contrast to Alonso's habit of crying to the media and complaining about his team constantly, especially considering Renault have done more for him than could be reasonably expected, whatever people want to say about Schumacher's reputation, I can't recall any driver ever relying on their teammate so much in one season as Alonso's had to this year. This race was the first time Massa's let Michael past, and the difference in fuel loads and the gap Michael built shows that he would have passed him anyway, just no point making it difficult.

Still, the championship isn't technically over and there's still a chance for poetic justice in the final race, I just can't see it happening though which is a pity.

All I want from Brazil is one more great victory and one final podium leap to add to the many memories of the last 15 years. China and Imola this year have already joined the long list of great victories against the odds he's produced time and again over the years.

v10

Dcully wrote:

Hey V10 do you have a general dislike for Alonso or just anyone who happens to beat you hero?
Suppose we can add Villineuve and Hakkinen to that to eh.

No .. I do think alonso is a good driver but not as good as Schumi and yes I dont like him as a person, and have taken a bigger disliking to him since he started losing and started showing his real personality. I did like Hakkinen, and enjoyed the races between himself and Schumacher. Villineuve was only ever a passenger in whatever car drove him around and I believe was only capable of beating Schumacher in a far superior car.

Kersh

I have to say (Schumi hater as I am), I did realise some years ago that I should enjoy watching him race, as another talent like him wont be along for a while. I know we have Kimi and Alonso now, but still I was gutted for Schumi for 2 reasons.
1 - I think he is retiring too early, and for that I would like to see him go as champion.
2 - I really really am sick of Alonsos whining and moaning and throwing toys out of his pram.. I gotta say he really annoys me..

Anyhow, hope Alonso crashes off at brazil and Schumi wins it.

Does anyone think Kubica is any good, I do.. think he will be one to watch..

Dcully

In fairness Alonso is a moaner and getting worse.
Schumacher [hater of his personality that i am] is an absolutely brilliant driver.
I too think it is too early for him to retire.
I mean its debatable but i think he is still the fastest man in F1,Kimi and Alonso aint far off and will get faster but right now he could go on to totally obliterate the record books further.
I honestly think the guy is so fit he could go on for 5-6 years contesting the championship.
Ill be sad to see him go from a racing point of view.
Regardless of what we think of the man all racing fans should applaud him.

As for Kubica,im a fan already,very very impressive.

Running Bing

steviec wrote:

Can't believe people are happy about a Formula 1 championship being decided by the faster guy breaking down. Great finale to the season eh :rolleyes:

Clearly it wasnt decided by that. Alonso broke down in Monza (after having to push so hard becuase of a penalty;) ) so its all even. I think its great becuase it shows who truly was the better driver this year. Its been decided based on the racing not cause of alonsos break down at monza.:)

steviec wrote:

I can't recall any driver ever relying on their teammate so much in one season as Alonso's had to this year. This race was the first time Massa's let Michael past, and the difference in fuel loads and the gap Michael built shows that he would have passed him anyway, just no point making it difficult.

You must be joking! to say fisi helped alonso more than massa helped schumacher is ridiculous. As a matter of fact everything this year on and off the track ended up pretty even so, barring a renault engine blowing at brazil, the better driver will have won. Could of course still be schumi if alonso makes a mistake.

steviec wrote:

Still, the championship isn't technically over and there's still a chance for poetic justice in the final race

What do you mean poetic justice? how can you justify that keeping in mind my comments above?

steviec

Babybing wrote:

Clearly it wasnt decided by that. Alonso broke down in Monza (after having to push so hard becuase of a penalty;) ) so its all even. I think its great becuase it shows who truly was the better driver this year. Its been decided based on the racing not cause of alonsos break down at monza.:)



You must be joking! to say fisi helped alonso more than massa helped schumacher is ridiculous. As a matter of fact everything this year on and off the track ended up pretty even so, barring a renault engine blowing at brazil, the better driver will have won. Could of course still be schumi if alonso makes a mistake.



What do you mean poetic justice? how can you justify that keeping in mind my comments above?

Because Michael was putting on a dominant performance for the win when his engine blew allowing Alonso to inherit an undeserved victory and because Michael was also putting on a dominant performance for the win and deserved his victory regardless of whether Alonso's engine blew while he was down around 4th or 5th? If neither engine blow had happened Alonso would be leading by a couple of points instead of 10, and the title would be wide open.

Because Michael's engine also blew in Malaysia? Because his tyres were useless in Australia, Hungary and China(where he won regardless)? Because Massa has moved over for Michael once this season, in this race where it was inconsequential and where Michael had much more pace anyway, while Alonso has had Fisi's help in China, both holding people up early on and letting Fernando through at the end, and Hockenheim, saving him two places by holding up himself and a Toyota aswell while Alonso messed up and ran through the gravel, and Turkey where he admitted to ruining his own and a number of other driver's races by purposely spinning to avoid compromising Fernando's race?

Mostly because of all the memories Michael has given us though. Both over his career and also this Season, where he put on spectacular performances in Imola, Monaco, Canada and China in particular, all races where he outperformed his car. In Alonso's case I can think only of France where he switched strategy and put in a good performance for second, and Hungary where he certainly outperformed other Michelin runners but Michael was out of the race by default thanks to tyres there, he outperformed Michael in Hungary as much as Michael outperformed him at Indy 05.

And finally, because his reaction to adversity is so admirable. The way he never gave up halfway through the Season when everything was looking down. The way he came back to become favourite, and his reaction to having that stolen from him on Sunday. Compared to Alonso's constant complaining that everyone has it in for him, including his own team, even after they've given him so much.

It just doesn't seem right that he should win the title over the man who's given so much to the sport over his career, and especially in this fashion when he clearly hasn't been able to beat him on track for quite a while since Ferrari have caught up with Renault.

OSiriS

It's a matter of perspective, I'm sure many would consider Schumacher's engine failure to be poetic justice. I was glad to see Schumacher's reaction to it though but after so many titles one more isn't a big deal. Pity his fans can't show as much character.

dinjo

alot of people are delighted that schumacher is leaving and that alonso is about 99.99% certain of winning the championship, but these people are idiots. Michael Schumacher is the greatest Formula 1 driver to ever put on a helmet and get into a car. Next year's season isn't going to be half as interesting without schumacher....

Trendkill was talking about records.... Fernando Alonso will NEVER get near schumachers records. im so disguisted at the way this season has finished with aan arrogant a55hole like Fernando Alonso winning a second world championship.

i've been a loyal Michael Schumacher fan for years.... i've made a decision that im going to support Ferrari from now on and im going to be delighted to see Kimi in the Ferrari next year and winning his first world championship ! ! ! The first of many !

OSiriS

Actually it's bitter remarks like that which make me all the more glad Schumacher is leaving. From what I can see the only reason Schumacher fans hate Alonso is because Alonso is beating Schumacher. Every sport is a passionate affair, F1 is no different. The pressure of leading or trailing in a F1 championship has affected every driver since the dawn of the sport, Schumacher is no different. Alonso's reaction has been evident lately by his irrational comments between races. It is very hypocritical that any Schumacher fan can claim that Alonso's attitude off the track is in any way worse than Schumachers behaviour on track in the past when he faced similar pressures, yet many of you cite such behaviour as why you hate Alonso and love Schumacher.

Beekay

dinjo wrote:

Michael Schumacher is the greatest Formula 1 driver to ever put on a helmet and get into a car.

You should put IMO after that or you'll start another one of those endless threads

Trendkill was talking about records.... Fernando Alonso will NEVER get near schumachers records.

I can't see how you know this

i've been a loyal Michael Schumacher fan for years....

Really?LOL:D

Kimi in the Ferrari next year and winning his first world championship ! ! ! The first of many !

Let's hope!

steviec

OSiriS wrote:

Actually it's bitter remarks like that which make me all the more glad Schumacher is leaving. From what I can see the only reason Schumacher fans hate Alonso is because Alonso is beating Schumacher. Every sport is a passionate affair, F1 is no different. The pressure of leading or trailing in a F1 championship has affected every driver since the dawn of the sport, Schumacher is no different. Alonso's reaction has been evident lately by his irrational comments between races. It is very hypocritical that any Schumacher fan can claim that Alonso's attitude off the track is in any way worse than Schumachers behaviour on track in the past when he faced similar pressures, yet many of you cite such behaviour as why you hate Alonso and love Schumacher.

There's a big difference between being ruthless on track and acting like a spoilt brat off it(and on it for that matter, with the fist waving and the dangerous driving as he attempts to intimidate backmarkers).

Why is it that no Schumacher fans ever hated Hakkinen for beating him? Because Hakkinen, like Michael, was a class act. And though he was never quite as spectacular as Michael in terms of racecraft he was always fast and had very few faults, and this was noticeable before the McLaren came good in 98 too.

For the record I did like Alonso since right back when he was with Minardi because I saw a very talented driver, but that was before he started showing his true colours. He beat Michael in 05 and he was comprehensively beating him in early 06, I have no problem with that. It's his reaction to Michael's pressure late in the second half of the Season, both on and off the track, where he's made mistakes, often found himself behind Fisichella whenever the car is less than perfect, and incessently complained and blamed everyone else for everything that went wrong, that's what has really made me dislike him.

Although this is kind of off-topic. I already gave numerous reasons why I felt Michael deserved this title more and that's why I feel Sunday was so cruel. It was also unfortunate for the neutral fans who are unlikely to see an exciting finale.

Dcully

LOL Dinjo,not sure bout greatest ever but do agree Kimi will be hot,hopefully.

OSiriS

steviec wrote:

There's a big difference between being ruthless on track and acting like a spoilt brat off it

My point exactly.

steviec wrote:

Why is it that no Schumacher fans ever hated Hakkinen for beating him?

You must have missed many of the comments on this board from Schumacher fans bad mouthing Hakkinen.

trendkill

Yes Baby, yes.

Schumacher should continue.... Mansell won his title at 41...... come on.... that would make the next few seasons great, alonso Shumi, Kimi.... it'd make great racing... like it has been for the last few years

Kersh

the only reason Schumacher fans hate Alonso is because Alonso is beating Schumacher

I hate schumi (but he is class), but I hate Alonso even more... he is such a whiner... Renault dont want ME to win the title, Massa blocked me in Qualifying.. Michael is a crap driver... he is such a whine.
Does anyone remember Iirc Canada 05.. on his radio moaning he couldn get past Fizzy, and the team radio crackling into life saying you have just gotta pass him.... then he hit the wall... whinger.

trendkill

Maybe what the majority see as whinging is Alonso getting his group together getting the blood flowing... a sort of motivation... does anyone know exactly what he said?

how many drivers complained about their team-mate getting preferential treatment.... remember Coulthard bitching year after year about Adrian Newey being on Mika's side of the Garage.... complaining that he was never allowed use the shower after a race until Hakkinen had used it. Think back to Canada this year, Scott Speed bitching to his Chief Engineer on the grid through the radio.. it went something like this.... "after the race, if I see that Vittanios temperatures are lower then mine like at the last race... heads will roll!!!"

Drivers have always complained... and always will, some use it to their advantage and use it to get what they want (i.e Alonso Impeding Massa at Monza... COme on)... but others don't.... If Alonso had pissed off his mechanics, would they have been so happy for him to win the last race.... we've seen drivers piss off mechanics and their teams many times.. was this the reaction they have. The reaction would be something we usually see at Williams.... fire their ass.

I remember one year, Ralph Schumacher bought all the Race Team DVD players for Christmas as presents... (Fairly decent of him) but everyone at the factory bitched as they had received nothing not even a thanks from him. That pissed them off....

Schumacher has done his fair share of bitching about other drivers..... Monaco 99.... COmplaining about Hakkinens Qualifying Lap
January this year Schumacher complained over Ferrari not giving his a faster car
Usa 2000, Schumacher complains about Coulthard not letting him by easily once he had drawn alonside of him
2002 Schumacher complaining and bitching about Tom Walkinshaw letting Verstappen go
Canada 98, schumacher criticising Hill saying he blocked him "Dangerously"
2004, Schumacher complains of the Safety car driver driving too slow
99 Schumacher complains about the tyres and Niki Lauda
2003 Schumacher Criticised the new points system
May 2002, Schumacher slams Ferrari Bosses for ordering Rubens to hand him Victory
Schumacher Slammed Todt and Brawn for F2001's lack of Pace
2000 Schumacher whinges about Villeneuve and Coulthard talking about him behind his back

Schumacher has given out about almost anything.. however...not often for his own team..... (wonder why... don't think anyone in his position would)

cooker3

steviec wrote:

Why is it that no Schumacher fans ever hated Hakkinen for beating him?

Bar you of course who never stopped bitching about him at the time and about how it was just the car and really Adrian Newey was the real world champion.

steviec wrote:

It was also unfortunate for the neutral fans who are unlikely to see an exciting finale.

Yeah, you know what it's like to be neutral!

steviec wrote:

Can't believe people are happy about a Formula 1 championship being decided by the faster guy breaking down. Great finale to the season eh

Because if Alonso had broken down you would have been devastated wouldn't you!

steviec

cooker3 wrote:

Bar you of course who never stopped bitching about him at the time and about how it was just the car and really Adrian Newey was the real world champion.

Yeah, you know what it's like to be neutral!

Because if Alonso had broken down you would have been devastated wouldn't you!

Ah attacking the other person's credibility, the perfect tactic when you have no response to the actual points they made.

Running Bing

steviec wrote:

Ah attacking the other person's credibility, the perfect tactic when you have no response to the actual points they made.

Actually hes not attacking your credibility at all, hes simply disproving your point. You asked "Why is it that no Schumacher fans ever hated Hakkinen for beating him?", clearly there was one.

steviec

Babybing wrote:

Actually hes not attacking your credibility at all, hes simply disproving your point. You asked "Why is it that no Schumacher fans ever hated Hakkinen for beating him?", clearly there was one.

*sigh* somebody said people only hate Alonso cos he's beating Schumacher.

A number of other people, including myself and other posters who certainly aren't Schumacher fans, have given very very good reasons for disliking Alonso.

So without an answer to that you seem to be just dragging things off topic.

At least Trendkill had a decent response, although I don't remember any of the instances he's referring to. I'd be interested in seeing some quotes to back them up...

cooker3

steviec wrote:

Ah attacking the other person's credibility, the perfect tactic when you have no response to the actual points they made.

Hmmmmn ok, what points have you made then.

You complain about people celebrating Alonso's victory saying how undeserving it is and bloviate about how great Michael is (as you always do). So what exactly is differant from last weeks race. Ferrari messed up by providing bad engine which cost him victory, last week Renault messed up with a botched pit stop and bad tyres, yet you couldn't wait to post about what a mesmeric performance it was by Schumacher and how great he is. This week all you do is besmirch Alonso and say he got lucky but don't give him 1 bit of credit.

As for saying it would be poetic justice if Schumacher wins it, how do you figure that! The season is 18 races long, the reason Alonso is ahead is because he has been better overall for the season not because the engine blew on lap 37 in Japan, if Schumacher didn't crash into a wall in Australia or let De La Rosa pass him like he should have instead of breaking his car then he would be probably ahead in the championship, the better man wins and that is true poetic justice.

trendkill

steviec wrote:

*sigh* somebody said people only hate Alonso cos he's beating Schumacher.

A number of other people, including myself and other posters who certainly aren't Schumacher fans, have given very very good reasons for disliking Alonso.

So without an answer to that you seem to be just dragging things off topic.

At least Trendkill had a decent response, although I don't remember any of the instances he's referring to. I'd be interested in seeing some quotes to back them up...

If you want some quotes do a yahoo search or google search., it aint that hard... then maybe i'll show some quotes from autosport.com about schumacher complaining and bitching. Check out Alonso's quotes too.
Fairplay to Cooker..... bring it on.

Schumacher does something wrong... people say he's the greatest.... some other driver does something wrong.... they stone him.... and the important word there is "driver" not what type of person he is... at least Alonso on track is brilliant and his on-track ethics are all above board..... Schumacher will always have an air of untouchability about him... it wouldn't be him if it wasn't....

steviec

cooker3 wrote:

Hmmmmn ok, what points have you made then.

You complain about people celebrating Alonso's victory saying how undeserving it is and bloviate about how great Michael is (as you always do). So what exactly is differant from last weeks race. Ferrari messed up by providing bad engine which cost him victory, last week Renault messed up with a botched pit stop and bad tyres, yet you couldn't wait to post about what a mesmeric performance it was by Schumacher and how great he is. This week all you do is besmirch Alonso and say he got lucky but don't give him 1 bit of credit.

As for saying it would be poetic justice if Schumacher wins it, how do you figure that! The season is 18 races long, the reason Alonso is ahead is because he has been better overall for the season not because the engine blew on lap 37 in Japan, if Schumacher didn't crash into a wall in Australia or let De La Rosa pass him like he should have instead of breaking his car then he would be probably ahead in the championship, the better man wins and that is true poetic justice.

Oh come on even the most biased Alonso fan couldn't opine to that extent...

Both drivers have had a number of 'easy' wins when their car has been on top, so lets focus on the races that have made a real difference.

Let's look at good drives:
Michael:
Imola, beat Alonso to victory with a worse package through aggressive strategy and flawless driving.
Monaco, amazing comeback, incredible pace and relentless pushing to gain 17 places at a track where you can't overtake.
Canada, the never say attitude pushing to the final lap to overtake Raikkonen for second place having been well down the order with poor tyres in the early running.
Hungary, lapped every single bridgestone runner and was fighting for a podium before Heidfeld eventually ran into him.
China, qualified way ahead of what should have been possible, and won with a car that should have struggled to scrape points, overtaking numerous faster cars on track in the process. Most stunning drive of the season by far. No other driver could have done this, not since Senna.

Alonso:
France, nice change of strategy to get past Massa and put in some good laptimes and take second place.
Hungary, class of the Michelin runners at first although Button may have beaten him regardless. Considering the tyre situation, he beat Michael in this race as much as Michael beat him at Indy 05.
Turkey, drove well under pressure after being gifted second place.

Now lets look at mistakes made:
Michael:
Australia, crashed out while pushing too hard putting a car on completely useless tyres in a points scoring position.
Monaco, rascasse, punished very heavily and came back valiantly on race day.
Hungary, didn't change tyres at the right time. Was still in a position way way way beyond that which any other bridgestone runner could dream of, but ended up crashing out because he refused to give up to the pressure of vastly superior Michelin shod cars.
Turkey, ran wide in qualy when running a much heavier car than Massa, given fuel loads he may not have gotten pole anyway. Ran wide in turn 8 during the race while trying to make up for the position he was robbed of by the safety car.

Alonso:
USA, not so much a mistake as just an entire weekend of not driving very well to be comprehensively beaten by his team-mate.
Hockenheim, too busy whining to focus on his qualy lap, also generally poor all weekend, would have lost two places when he also ran off track only for Fisi doing the perfect team job, sacrificing both his own position and the Toyota who he was holding up.
Magny Cours, had an off track excursion on one lap, got away with it(not a big deal, but I bring it up because people continually point to Turkey turn 8 as an example of Schumacher being less consistent than Alonso and conveniently ignore the numerous ocassions Alonso has made similar errors worth the same amount of time)
Hungary, accidentally found neutral and lost himself 4 seconds on one lap(again equal in magnitude to Michael's mistake in Turkey)
Turkey, mysteriously lost 4 seconds in one lap off camera, possibly even at turn 8 itself.
Monza, had an off track excursion cutting the chicane.
China, wore out his tyres, had an off track excursion, decided along with the team on a very very bad tyre change decision.
Suzuka, ran off track twice early in the race.

So in my view Michael has had more good races and made less mistakes. Ferrari have also produced the best car for more races this year. Unfortunately they've had 4 engines let go compared to Renault's one, they've had really bad tyre issues on a couple of tracks, a win Michael had in the bag was stolen by a safety car at the worst possible moment, and weather conditions have worked against them too. Hungary and Monza are the only times I can think of when anything has gone wrong for Renault(China was their own fault), in the case of Monza they weren't anywhere near Michael before the engine blew anyway and Hungary they were gifted such a strong position by the conditions anyway so they'd their fair share of good luck before the bad luck hit.

cooker3

steviec wrote:

Oh come on even the most biased Alonso fan couldn't opine to that extent...

Both drivers have had a number of 'easy' wins when their car has been on top, so lets focus on the races that have made a real difference.

Let's look at good drives:
Michael:
Imola, beat Alonso to victory with a worse package through aggressive strategy and flawless driving.
Monaco, amazing comeback, incredible pace and relentless pushing to gain 17 places at a track where you can't overtake.
Canada, the never say attitude pushing to the final lap to overtake Raikkonen for second place having been well down the order with poor tyres in the early running.
Hungary, lapped every single bridgestone runner and was fighting for a podium before Heidfeld eventually ran into him.
China, qualified way ahead of what should have been possible, and won with a car that should have struggled to scrape points, overtaking numerous faster cars on track in the process. Most stunning drive of the season by far. No other driver could have done this, not since Senna.

Alonso:
France, nice change of strategy to get past Massa and put in some good laptimes and take second place.
Hungary, class of the Michelin runners at first although Button may have beaten him regardless. Considering the tyre situation, he beat Michael in this race as much as Michael beat him at Indy 05.
Turkey, drove well under pressure after being gifted second place.

Now lets look at mistakes made:
Michael:
Australia, crashed out while pushing too hard putting a car on completely useless tyres in a points scoring position.
Monaco, rascasse, punished very heavily and came back valiantly on race day.
Hungary, didn't change tyres at the right time. Was still in a position way way way beyond that which any other bridgestone runner could dream of, but ended up crashing out because he refused to give up to the pressure of vastly superior Michelin shod cars.
Turkey, ran wide in qualy when running a much heavier car than Massa, given fuel loads he may not have gotten pole anyway. Ran wide in turn 8 during the race while trying to make up for the position he was robbed of by the safety car.

Alonso:
USA, not so much a mistake as just an entire weekend of not driving very well to be comprehensively beaten by his team-mate.
Hockenheim, too busy whining to focus on his qualy lap, also generally poor all weekend, would have lost two places when he also ran off track only for Fisi doing the perfect team job, sacrificing both his own position and the Toyota who he was holding up.
Magny Cours, had an off track excursion on one lap, got away with it(not a big deal, but I bring it up because people continually point to Turkey turn 8 as an example of Schumacher being less consistent than Alonso and conveniently ignore the numerous ocassions Alonso has made similar errors worth the same amount of time)
Hungary, accidentally found neutral and lost himself 4 seconds on one lap(again equal in magnitude to Michael's mistake in Turkey)
Turkey, mysteriously lost 4 seconds in one lap off camera, possibly even at turn 8 itself.
Monza, had an off track excursion cutting the chicane.
China, wore out his tyres, had an off track excursion, decided along with the team on a very very bad tyre change decision.
Suzuka, ran off track twice early in the race.

So in my view Michael has had more good races and made less mistakes. Ferrari have also produced the best car for more races this year. Unfortunately they've had 4 engines let go compared to Renault's one, they've had really bad tyre issues on a couple of tracks, a win Michael had in the bag was stolen by a safety car at the worst possible moment, and weather conditions have worked against them too. Hungary and Monza are the only times I can think of when anything has gone wrong for Renault(China was their own fault), in the case of Monza they weren't anywhere near Michael before the engine blew anyway and Hungary they were gifted such a strong position by the conditions anyway so they'd their fair share of good luck before the bad luck hit.

Honestly I love how you spin everything, for every single mistake you list for Schumacher you still manage to turn into a positive "came back valiantly" "refused to give up to the pressure of vastly superior Michelin shod cars", yet for Alonso you strangely fail to do this and bring up what yourself admit are pretty minor occurances. Karl Rove would be proud of this. Well I on the other hand try to operate in a no spin zone.

Schumacher car has let him down once this year and that was Japan, few times his tyres haven't been up to the Michelins such as a lot of China and Hungary(basically when it rained), Alonso too has had engine give up once and races were tyres were inferior. So your little comparison of 4 engine blow ups versus 1 is not exactly fair as it other 3 didn't affect schumacher.

For schumachers good drives, you forget to mention why Schumacher had to overtake 17 people in Monaco, what a proud moment that was. You don't even mention Alonso win in Japan, his tyres were clearly inferior yet he still manage to beat other Ferrari of Massa and other bridgestones who had much better tyres.

You then finish off by saying he got robbed in Turkey by safety car, no he and Ferrari cost him the race, if he hadn't so much fuel in car and not ran wide in qualifying then he is on pole and if Ferrari let Massa pass by and let Schumacher pit ahead then he is first as well, so solely blaming safety car is not exactly fair. Judging by what you say I expect Schumacher to have wrapped up title months ago seeing as he is better, made less mistakes and had better car yet strangely I look at drives championship and I see he is 2nd not first, does the drivers standings lie, simple fact is reason Alonso is ahead is he has driven more consistanly over course of season and more to the point at the start of the season, that is where Schumacher lost the championship if he does indeed lose out in Brazil, you can twist all you like but Alonso is winning and you can't change that!

steviec

cooker3 wrote:

Honestly I love how you spin everything, for every single mistake you list for Schumacher you still manage to turn into a positive "came back valiantly" "refused to give up to the pressure of vastly superior Michelin shod cars", yet for Alonso you strangely fail to do this and bring up what yourself admit are pretty minor occurances. Karl Rove would be proud of this. Well I on the other hand try to operate in a no spin zone.

Schumacher car has let him down once this year and that was Japan, few times his tyres haven't been up to the Michelins such as a lot of China and Hungary(basically when it rained), Alonso too has had engine give up once and races were tyres were inferior. So your little comparison of 4 engine blow ups versus 1 is not exactly fair as it other 3 didn't affect schumacher.

For schumachers good drives, you forget to mention why Schumacher had to overtake 17 people in Monaco, what a proud moment that was. You don't even mention Alonso win in Japan, his tyres were clearly inferior yet he still manage to beat other Ferrari of Massa and other bridgestones who had much better tyres.

You then finish off by saying he got robbed in Turkey by safety car, no he and Ferrari cost him the race, if he hadn't so much fuel in car and not ran wide in qualifying then he is on pole and if Ferrari let Massa pass by and let Schumacher pit ahead then he is first as well, so solely blaming safety car is not exactly fair. Judging by what you say I expect Schumacher to have wrapped up title months ago seeing as he is better, made less mistakes and had better car yet strangely I look at drives championship and I see he is 2nd not first, does the drivers standings lie, simple fact is reason Alonso is ahead is he has driven more consistanly over course of season and more to the point at the start of the season, that is where Schumacher lost the championship if he does indeed lose out in Brazil, you can twist all you like but Alonso is winning and you can't change that!

Ok don't have much time for a long reply but...

Everything I listed was fact. Michael hasn't only had one blown engine, he had to change engine after qualifying in Bahrain(or Malaysia? Always get those two mixed up) which cost him dearly.

And Michael was punching above his weight against vastly superior Michelin shod cars in Hungary. You only have to look at his team mate and every single other bridgestone runner to see that. Same goes for his tyres in Australia, sure he probably could have cruised to 7th or 8th on those tyres but just giving up like that isn't why he's the most successful driver in the history of the sport.

Alonso on the other hand has made unwarranted mistakes, often struggling to even be on Fisi's pace when the Renault has been less than perfect. Michael has left Massa for dust whenever the chips have been down.

As for Turkey... Michael had 8 laps more fuel in his car. This is generally accepted as fact, teams don't release this information but various different publications have come up with this figure based on technical analysis and it seems logical. Running with more fuel was *not* a bad decision. It put him in perfect shape. Massa was able to stay ahead with a lighter car in the first stint, Michael was all set to overtake him and win the race once the pitstops came. He's done it to Raikkonen this year on a number of occassions, he did it to Alonso too at the Nurburgring I believe. Running heavy and setting blisteringly fast laps leading up to the pitstop has been one of his primary tactics for years. I don't know how anyone can fault his decision to run heavy. Unfortunately, the safety car completely messed up his race. If it was one of the races where Raikkonen was the ultra-light pole car, Michael could have just waited till the second stops to overtake him instead and it wouldn't have been a problem. But because it was Massa, he had to queue, and it destroyed his race. Bad luck and couldn't have been foreseen by the team.

So Michael has had: an engine change at Bahrain, woeful tyres at Australia, Hungary and China, a harsh and unprecedented penalty at Hungary due to Alonso's gamesmanship, a comfortable win ruined by a safety car in Turkey, and an engine blow up at Suzuka.

Alonso has had: a loose wheelnut at Hungary and an engine blow up when he was already behind anyway at Monza.

Jonny Arson

ROFL @ the Schumacher fans giving out about Alonso!!!

I can't wait for the reaction of them the day Alonso does something like this or maybe this!

Sure Alonso is a bit of a moany git but that's just part and parcel of being an F1 driver these days, aside from racing abilities Alonso is one of the few drivers who has a bit of personality or spark to them. I like him anyway.

trendkill

Couldn't have said it better myself!

Dcully

LOL @ steviec,man you should be a spin doctor for bertie ffs.
As cooker said above,you spin everything bad and the downright cheating of Schumi into something positive for your hero.
For months now im reading your tripe about your beloved "Michael".
Stop trying to ram the fact your in love with the guy down everyone elses throat.
Michael this and Michael bloody that :rolleyes:
Its blinkered fans like you that make us neutrals want Shumacher to lose.

steviec

Ah sure why bother discussing the actual facts I listed when you can bring up things that happened a decade ago and call me biased instead.

Dcully

Impossible to discuss with someone as blinkered as you,thats pretty evident to everyone.
Some try to discuss with you,me i just know your one dimensional from your posts here therefore i dont waste my time

steviec

Dcully wrote:

Impossible to discuss with someone as blinkered as you,thats pretty evident to everyone.
Some try to discuss with you,me i just know your one dimensional from your posts here therefore i dont waste my time

Ah and then come the predictable insults...

So, Button's shown good form this Season hasn't he

Dcully

You call that an insult?
Yet again your putting your spin on everything,so now my comment is an insult,lol dude take a chill pill :rolleyes:

Running Bing

steviec wrote:

Ok don't have much time for a long reply but...

Everything I listed was fact. Michael hasn't only had one blown engine, he had to change engine after qualifying in Bahrain(or Malaysia? Always get those two mixed up) which cost him dearly.

And Michael was punching above his weight against vastly superior Michelin shod cars in Hungary. You only have to look at his team mate and every single other bridgestone runner to see that. Same goes for his tyres in Australia, sure he probably could have cruised to 7th or 8th on those tyres but just giving up like that isn't why he's the most successful driver in the history of the sport.

Alonso on the other hand has made unwarranted mistakes, often struggling to even be on Fisi's pace when the Renault has been less than perfect. Michael has left Massa for dust whenever the chips have been down.

As for Turkey... Michael had 8 laps more fuel in his car. This is generally accepted as fact, teams don't release this information but various different publications have come up with this figure based on technical analysis and it seems logical. Running with more fuel was *not* a bad decision. It put him in perfect shape. Massa was able to stay ahead with a lighter car in the first stint, Michael was all set to overtake him and win the race once the pitstops came. He's done it to Raikkonen this year on a number of occassions, he did it to Alonso too at the Nurburgring I believe. Running heavy and setting blisteringly fast laps leading up to the pitstop has been one of his primary tactics for years. I don't know how anyone can fault his decision to run heavy. Unfortunately, the safety car completely messed up his race. If it was one of the races where Raikkonen was the ultra-light pole car, Michael could have just waited till the second stops to overtake him instead and it wouldn't have been a problem. But because it was Massa, he had to queue, and it destroyed his race. Bad luck and couldn't have been foreseen by the team.

So Michael has had: an engine change at Bahrain, woeful tyres at Australia, Hungary and China, a harsh and unprecedented penalty at Hungary due to Alonso's gamesmanship, a comfortable win ruined by a safety car in Turkey, and an engine blow up at Suzuka.

Alonso has had: a loose wheelnut at Hungary and an engine blow up when he was already behind anyway at Monza.

You are quite likely never going to find a more biased review of a formula 1 season ever again!

trendkill

So who thinks Alonso doesn't "deserve" to win the title this year? and why?

Me, i think it would be great for the sport if either wins. However, I would like to see Alonso win it. This is something we have never seen in F1 for a long time now... the "Old Master" vs. the challenge from "The Newboy". We never got to see this happen with Schumacher due to Senna's death, now we get to see it and I have relished it last year (although the Ferrari was a pig) and have immensly enjoyed it this year. The season was half and half... some great racing...ALonso came out on top on some, Schumacher came out on top then on others. Noone can argue it has been a very balanced year... 50/50 Renault/Ferrari.

So what if Alonso likes to chat to the media... most F1 drivers hate it. Flav holds a conference every day for the drivers at GP weekends.. not other teams do that. Without Villeneuve and Montoya around next year.. Journalistically, it will be fairly crap without Montoya or Villeneuve giving their opinions on everything... I know i loved it, hearing them complain... (Eddie Irvine was the champion at that though). So maybe its good for the sport for next year.. ALonso speaks his mind.... in this day and age of Commercially aware drivers afraid of irritating sponsors by "brain fade"... we should be delighted that we won't have mute robots driving around circuits.. but actually people with their oown minds and feelings. At least Mika loosened up towards the end of his career in F1 and joked with Brundle on the Grid Walk...

It can only be good.. it brings viewers into Bernies pockets.

steviec

trendkill wrote:

So who thinks Alonso doesn't "deserve" to win the title this year? and why?

Me, i think it would be great for the sport if either wins. However, I would like to see Alonso win it. This is something we have never seen in F1 for a long time now... the "Old Master" vs. the challenge from "The Newboy". We never got to see this happen with Schumacher due to Senna's death, now we get to see it and I have relished it last year (although the Ferrari was a pig) and have immensly enjoyed it this year. The season was half and half... some great racing...ALonso came out on top on some, Schumacher came out on top then on others. Noone can argue it has been a very balanced year... 50/50 Renault/Ferrari.

So what if Alonso likes to chat to the media... most F1 drivers hate it. Flav holds a conference every day for the drivers at GP weekends.. not other teams do that. Without Villeneuve and Montoya around next year.. Journalistically, it will be fairly crap without Montoya or Villeneuve giving their opinions on everything... I know i loved it, hearing them complain... (Eddie Irvine was the champion at that though). So maybe its good for the sport for next year.. ALonso speaks his mind.... in this day and age of Commercially aware drivers afraid of irritating sponsors by "brain fade"... we should be delighted that we won't have mute robots driving around circuits.. but actually people with their oown minds and feelings. At least Mika loosened up towards the end of his career in F1 and joked with Brundle on the Grid Walk...

It can only be good.. it brings viewers into Bernies pockets.

I'll agree on that, it's been by far the best F1 season since Hakkinen retired at least.

Alonso won't get away with acting the way he has been under Ron Dennis though. No way.

trendkill

Ahhh... but...... Heard somewhere recently that Ron Dennis said McLaren are gonna have an image overhaul for next season... no longer wanting to be seen as a clinical efficent strict no fun racing team.... with the new Vodafone and a young world champion.... .. I wonder will they try and rejuvenate themselves as a young cool, relaxing atmosphere, fun loving race team.... like what Red Bull have done??? .....

...Kinda hard to picture Ron Dennis diving into a swimming pool naked except for a red cape... at monaco!!...... what bernie would say!

steviec

trendkill wrote:

...Kinda hard to picture Ron Dennis diving into a swimming pool naked except for a red cape... at monaco!!...... what bernie would say!

If ever something would drive fans away from the sport it's that.

trendkill

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/55111
Interesting reading... wonder what people think of that...

Have ferrari shown sporting form....?